Russ Massey Posted September 20, 2018 Share Posted September 20, 2018 I'm hoping to convert the Grey Company campaign from the Tentacle Press series to the new rules. The main stumbling block is that the campaign was designed around the theistic Pavis Cult of Cults of Prax and Gods of Glorantha, but we now know (from the HQ supplement Pavis: Gatewat to Adventure) that Pavis is not worshipped as a deity but provides sorcery via grimoires. I'm assuming that Pavis won't be included in the upcoming Cults supplement, so do I need to create the sorcery spells from scratch or has there been any work done anywhere that would give me a start on this? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runeblogger Posted September 20, 2018 Share Posted September 20, 2018 My advice is: ignore Pavis as a sorcery cult and keep it as a deity. 5 Quote Read my Runeblog about RuneQuest and Glorantha at: http://elruneblog.blogspot.com.es/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metcalph Posted September 20, 2018 Share Posted September 20, 2018 5 hours ago, Russ Massey said: I'm assuming that Pavis won't be included in the upcoming Cults supplement, so do I need to create the sorcery spells from scratch or has there been any work done anywhere that would give me a start on this? The write-up does state: Quote Pavis is strongly associated with the Man Rune, although it is not necessary for a hero to take the Man Rune in order to be a member. Any initiate of Pavis with the Man Rune of 1W or higher may use it directly as a divine rune affinity. This is a byproduct of Lord Pavis’ experiments in the Second Age. Man Rune Affinity , The Man Rune is shared by all mortal humanoid species, but as it represents the humanoid shape itself, it is unusual for it to be one of the dominant runes of any mortal (in game terms, it is rare that it is one of a person’s three runes). Nonetheless, Pavis is strongly associated with the Man Rune and his initiates may use the Man Rune directly within the boundaries of Old and New Pavis to foster unity amongst those who share the Man Rune. Pavis initiates are known to use the Man Rune to placate others who share the Man Rune within the boundaries of Old or New Pavis, and to mate successfully with other species sharing the Man Rune. Pavis Gateway to Adventure p363 So yes, Rune Magic is available to the Cult of Pavis (placing him in a similar situation to Lhankor Mhy) except that the magics can only be used within the borders of Pavis. I would as a result give common rune magics plus city harmony (and perhaps city fertility). The higher magics such as the summoning the Elementals, the Harmony of Parts, Door to the Room without Doors etc remain sorcery spells. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russ Massey Posted September 21, 2018 Author Share Posted September 21, 2018 8 hours ago, metcalph said: The write-up does state: (cut for space) So yes, Rune Magic is available to the Cult of Pavis (placing him in a similar situation to Lhankor Mhy) except that the magics can only be used within the borders of Pavis. I would as a result give common rune magics plus city harmony (and perhaps city fertility). The higher magics such as the summoning the Elementals, the Harmony of Parts, Door to the Room without Doors etc remain sorcery spells. I like that interpretation. Restricting bestowal of the magics depending on a cutlists Man Rune score would keep them fairly unusual except in the hands of devoted Pavic specialists, which is what I am aiming for. The sorcery, especially as regards stone-working and earth manipulation can be more generally available. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soltakss Posted September 22, 2018 Share Posted September 22, 2018 (edited) On 9/20/2018 at 5:37 PM, Runeblogger said: My advice is: ignore Pavis as a sorcery cult and keep it as a deity. Yes, do this. Use the RQ2/3/Classic writeup for Pavis and use those Runespells. If you want the sorcery flavour, then have the cult provide Grimoires for Pavic Sorcerers, as additional magic. Edited September 22, 2018 by soltakss 2 Quote Simon Phipp - Caldmore Chameleon - Wallowing in my elitism since 1982. Many Systems, One Family. Just a fanboy. www.soltakss.com/index.html Jonstown Compendium author. Find my contributions here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russ Massey Posted October 2, 2018 Author Share Posted October 2, 2018 I've been working on sorcery spells for Pavis initiates. I'd welcome any comments or criticism of the suggestions below. Sorcery Spells associated with the Master of the Faceless King Grimoire THE GREATER BODY (Truth, Earth, Summon) 2 Points Ranged, Active, Temporal The caster can sense the presence of the stone that formed the body of the Faceless Statue out to the range of the spell. With 4 levels of strength he can determine what type of stone it is (i.e. Body Stone, Bowel Stone etc). With 8 levels of strength he can determine if any type of enchantment is present in the stone and what the purpose of that enchantment is. Use of the spell requires active concentration on the part of the caster, and it takes a full melee round to examine a 25 square meter area. The spell is blocked by 1 meter of loose dirt, sand, thick vegetation or water. Solid riock or stone is transparent to the spell. THE UNITY OF THE KING (Harmony, Earth. Command) 3 Points Touch, Active, Temporal The caster can repair and restore damaged stonework by touch within the walls of Pavis. At strength 1 small cracks and chips can be smoothed out. At strength 4 you can reattach broken pieces like the arm of a stature, or repair a large crack or fracture. At strength 8 you can completely rebuild a shattered stone block. It takes a full minute to use this magic on an item for each 6 SIZ it possesses. BE OF THE SKIN (Earth, Dispel) 2 Points Ranged, Passive, Temporal The recipient gains protection from damage caused by rock or stone. This spell protects only the body of the target and not any possessions carried. The total damage done by any attack using rock or stone must overcome the strength of the spell on the resistance table. If the damage overcomes the strength of the spell it does full damage to the user, with any armour then applying. If it fails to overcome the strength of the spell then no damage is taken. The spell will protect against rock falls and stone traps, falls onto solid rock or stone, and blows from stone weapons, such has many troll clubs and maces. BE OF THE BLOOD (Earth Movement, Combine) 4 Points Touch, Active, Temporal The recipient of this spell gains the ability to move slowly through rock and stone in Pavis. Movement is 1m per round and demands concentration. These is no ability to breath while within stone, so suffocation is treated as if being transported through earth by an elemental. The base spell affects only the body of the user, but each level of strength allows 1 ENC to be taken along with them. The spell does not work through loose earth or sand. BE OF THE BONE (Earth, Summon) 2 Points Touch, Passive, Temporal The recipient partakes of the endurance of the Faceless Stature. The recipients CON is increased by 1, plus another 1 for every two levels of the spell, with no cap on the maximum increase. MASTER OF FORM (Truth, Summon) 2 Points Self only, Passive, Temporal The caster is inspired in his stone working ability. He adds 10% to the skills of Masonry and Devise (stone traps only) for each level of the spell. MASTER OF BALANCE (Harmony, Motion, Combine) 2 Points Self only, Passive, Temporal The caster is one with the body of Pavis. He may move over any stony or rubbled surface within the city without losing his footing or being slowed. While in contact with rock or stone his skills of jumping, climbing and dodge are increased by 5% per level of the spell, and movement speed is increased by 1 for every 3 levels of the spell. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Scott Posted October 2, 2018 Share Posted October 2, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, Russ Massey said: I've been working on sorcery spells for Pavis initiates. I'd welcome any comments or criticism of the suggestions below. Sorcery Spells associated with the Master of the Faceless King Grimoire Looks good Quote THE GREATER BODY (Truth, Earth, Summon) BE OF THE SKIN (Earth, Dispel) BE OF THE BLOOD (Earth Movement, Combine) BE OF THE BONE (Earth, Summon) MASTER OF BALANCE (Harmony, Motion, Combine) These certainly fit the Master of the Faceless King Grimoire Quote THE UNITY OF THE KING (Harmony, Earth. Command) MASTER OF FORM (Truth, Summon) These feels like Flintnail ones from the Secrets of the Stone (P:GtA page 371) You've missed Harmony of the Parts & Soothe the Dyspeptic Stomach. Harmony of the parts is City Harmony and is available as a rune magic in a different form. Soothe the Dyspeptic Stomach. Harmony Darkness combine (as per Calm Water) Harmony of the parts. Harmony Man combine (as per Calm Water) I'd also make all the spells with the harmony rune as that was the theme of the grimoire. It means that Pavis sorcerers will likely master the Harmony rune and combine technique (incorporates command and tap at double mp cost). My suggestions would be: THE GREATER BODY (Harmony, stasis, combine) The caster harmonises with the stone that formed the body of the Faceless Statue... BE OF THE SKIN (Harmony, stasis, combine) The caster harmonises and becomes the rock. BE OF THE BLOOD (Harmony, stasis, combine) the caster harmonises and becomes the rock. BE OF THE BONE (Harmony, man, combine) the caster harmonises and becomes the statue. MASTER OF BALANCE (Harmony, man, Combine) The caster is one with the body of statue. Don't forget they can get access to a Flintnail grimoire and maybe some dwarf sorcery. Have a look at Makor the Strong on page 19. I tried to show him with a range of Pavic magics, with Pavis, Flintnail and Dwarf spells. Also have a look at how Sorala works as a pregen in RQG. Her spells are all Truth, Command apart from her best spell one which is a summon. Edited October 2, 2018 by David Scott 1 Quote ----- Search the Glorantha Resource Site: https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com. Search the Glorantha mailing list archives: https://glorantha.steff.in/digests/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russ Massey Posted October 2, 2018 Author Share Posted October 2, 2018 10 minutes ago, David Scott said: Looks good These certainly fit the Master of the Faceless King Grimoire These feels like Flintnail ones from the Secrets of the Stone (P:GtA page 371) You've missed Harmony of the Parts & Soothe the Dyspeptic Stomach. Harmony of the parts is City Harmony and is available as a rune magic in a different form. Soothe the Dyspeptic Stomach. Harmony Darkness combine (as per Calm Water) Harmony of the parts. Harmony Man combine (as per Calm Water) I'd also make all the spells with the harmony rune as that was the theme of the grimoire. It means that Pavis sorcerers will likely master the Harmony rune and combine technique (incorporates all the others at double mp cost). My suggestions would be: THE GREATER BODY (Harmony, stasis, combine) The caster harmonises with the stone that formed the body of the Faceless Statue... BE OF THE SKIN (Harmony, stasis, combine) The caster harmonises and becomes the rock. BE OF THE BLOOD (Harmony, stasis, combine) the caster harmonises and becomes the rock. BE OF THE BONE (Harmony, man, combine) the caster harmonises and becomes the statue. MASTER OF BALANCE (Harmony, man, Combine) The caster is one with the body of statue. Don't forget they can get access to a Flintnail grimoire and maybe some dwarf sorcery. Have a look at Makor the Strong on page 19. I tried to show him with a range of Pavic magics, with Pavis, Flintnail and Dwarf spells. Also have a look at how Sorala works as a pregen in RQG. Her spells are all Truth, Command apart from her best spell one which is a summon. Thanks for the comments. I agree about the two spells metioned feeling more like they would be from the Flintnail grimoire. I hadn't looked closely enough at Flintnail. I didn't bother statting Harmony of the Parts and Sooth the Dyspeptic Stomach yet, as I was mainly interested in creating new spells so that beginning characters would have a reasonable choice to select from. I like your selection of Harmony as the unifying rune - I think I'll go with that. I was originally using the Stasis rune instead of Earth for the spells, but changed my mind after reading that the Earth rune represented stone. Your way for the definitions is better IMO, and will certainly make it easier for Pavis sorcerors to specialise by concentrating on Harmony or Stasis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jape_Vicho Posted October 22 Share Posted October 22 (edited) On 9/20/2018 at 6:33 PM, Russ Massey said: I'm assuming that Pavis won't be included in the upcoming Cults supplement, so do I need to create the sorcery spells from scratch or has there been any work done anywhere that would give me a start on this? I'm hoping it will be included in the probable, but not yet announced nor specified, Lands of Dragon Pass: Prax/Pavis Book, so I think there's still hope for an official write-up... some years down the line. Either way, your interpretation looks very cool, so I say go with it. Edited October 22 by Jape_Vicho Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davecake Posted October 23 Share Posted October 23 (edited) The question, lore wise, is will the Pavis cult, when it is published, include the sorcerous powers from the HeroQuest PavIs: Gateway to Adventure book? And rules wise, will it be implemented using the RQG Sorcery rules? Both good questions. ' But first: On 9/21/2018 at 6:15 AM, metcalph said: So yes, Rune Magic is available to the Cult of Pavis Yes. In the Pavis: GTA cult write up Pavis was still a theist cult that granted rune magic, just very limited rune magic, and that is the main Pavis magic used by the majority of Pavis initiates and priests. In HQG terms it provided a Man rune affinity used for creating harmony among the residents of the city. I think that pretty much corresponds to the City Harmony spell, the only unique spell the cult had in RQ2 and the standard spell for City Gods in RQ3. I don't think the Pavis cult ever got an official writeup in RQ3? but it was clearly pretty close to the generic City God template. The spell is in RBoM. Besides that, Pavis had limited access to common rune spells in RQ2 and RQ3, and probably will in RQG. In RQ3 that was Excommunication, Mindlink, Sanctify, Warding, Worship Pavis, and In RQ2 all 1 pt spells. If we take the RQ3 list and convert it Excommunication becomes Ban, and Mindlink no longer exists as a common spell. Maybe there are others to add if you want (I'd clearly add Summon and Command Cult spirit for reasons explained later, at least for priests). Easy. City Harmony can be cast with either Man or Harmony runes (and even has Harmony right there in the name). In Pavis: GTA he only had access to the Man rune, but I'd say that was an overly restrictive one. I don't think there is any reason why he need only have that one rune, and he clearly has a fairly wide range of magic that is unusual for a city god. If we give him the Harmony rune as well and it becomes much easier. But if he only has the Man rune, that works as well, it just makes them a little bit weirder and less easy to play because the Man rune is so odd? He has associate cult spells. From Aldrya he gets Heal Body and Sunripen in RQ2. I don't think he'd be getting Sunripen from Aldrya in RQG, for multiple reasons, including that Aldrya no longer has direct access to that spell, but only gets it indirectly from Yelm. But Heal Body? no problem. And Pavis priests can cast it with their Harmony Rune. And he gets Support from Flintnail. Its a bit weird that dwarves would clearly normally be getting the same effect by using Stabilize Stone sorcery/Mostal maker magic, but there are other examples where cults seem to get Rune magic from Mostal, and until there is some generic explanation for that weirdness, we can just ignore that its weird and accept it happens - the Support rune spell is written up in RBoM. It is a Stasis rune spell, but no one said it would be easy, and most have it as 50% or more anyway. So, easy. We do have a big question remaining - how to handle its strange access to elementals? In RQ2 this was still weird - it was under subservient cults not associated the cults to indicate how weird it was, and not associated cults. And it was clear that it was one single small elemental (shared between the whole cult, and only replaceable annually. In Pavis GTA this was changed to a special grimoire, the book of treaties. I would frankly just ignore this. It made what is supposed to be a useful but not very powerful thing for the whole cult into an advanced thing accessible only to serious sorcerers who had already mastered their first grimoire, and then learnt 5 additional spell - but while keeping the limits of the original, making it very underpowered sorcery. But I think there is a very simple rules solution for dealing with this that works much better. Give Pavis access to Summon Cult Spirit and Command Cult Spirit from common rune spells, and then state that, unusually, its cult spirits include 1 small elemental of each of the 5 types Pavis has access too, shared among the cult. Easily done, and fits RQ2 Pavis cult much better than the sorcerous version. If you really want to the Book Of Treaties sorcery grimoire part of your Pavis lore, just make it deep background that documents how the cult gets its new elementals on the High Holy Day, that neither PCs not Gms ever need to think about unless they are desperate to change the established lore somehow or make a scenario based around the annual re-acquisition. Though the reacquisition sounds more like a ritual and/or very minor this world HeroQuest in most cases. On 9/21/2018 at 6:15 AM, metcalph said: except that the magics can only be used within the borders of Pavis. The restriction that Pavis rune magic only works within Pavis was not a restriction on the cult in RQ2, and I'm not sure where the idea that it was came from. It was a restriction on the use of the City Harmony spell only. I suggest that we return to that as the status quo. That is all the Rune spells done - now on to sorcery. Edited October 23 by davecake Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davecake Posted October 23 Share Posted October 23 Pavis sorcery 15 minutes ago, davecake said: The question, lore wise, is will the Pavis cult, when it is published, include the sorcerous powers from the HeroQuest PavIs: Gateway to Adventure book? And rules wise, will it be implemented using the RQG Sorcery rules? Both good questions. I have no insider knowledge as to the status of the plans for the Pavis book. Jeff does have somewhat of a tendency to remove new ideas introduced in HeroQuest material, but he was one of the lead writers of Pavis: GtA so I hope he would keep this new idea - though being the lead writer on the book hasn't stopped him retroactively removing ideas introduced in that book necessarily. Robin Laws wrote the Pavis book first draft, but I doubt it is the sort of thing he cares about deeply. I think that Pavis Sorcery is one of the coolest things about the cult, makes the Pavis mythology more interesting, and it should be retained. But I don't think it is supposed to be particularly common, particularly foundational to the day to day operation of the cult, or generally known. So it existing as an obscure sorcery tradition that is known to cult initiates, but not learnt by many of them, and not even all priests, is fine by me. I agree that Pavis sorcery would be written in Auld Wyrmish, and while the RAW seem to have magical translation of spells pretty easy, I generally don't think it should be. Put it down to the magical weirdness of Auld Wyrmish if you have to, but making knowledge of that language necessary seems part of the fun to me. I don't think any other changes are necessary to the base sorcery rules just for Pavis/EWF sorcery, but that makes it distinctly different from LM or Malkioni sorcery in flavour, and the rest comes in the unusual choices of spells and runes and associated material. I'd be inclined to introduce some other EWF sorcery if any of my players got really into this though, just to reward them for persevering! But I also think there are details that are best changed, and the whole of RQG sorcery is somewhat unshaped at this point and disagrees with HQG sorcery on many specific points, so I think replicating all of it is both unlikely and unnecessary. That includes removing the idea of grimoires seemingly almost entirely (though sorcery books of knowledge seem to be contemplated as taking other roles). Grimoires are no longer magical abilities in themselves or central to sorcery mechanics, but rather big magical books that may contain multiple things as in https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/books-in-runequest/ (though provide a quick learning method that can make getting sorcery skills needed a bit higher more easily). The true value of a grimoire might be that it includes information allowing Master of a Rune, for example. One of Jeff's examples even increase Magic Bonus! Grimoires become magic treasures in themselves not just because of the spells. Which means you can get away without documenting all the spells contained in each book without making them seem worthless or unimportant. I think the Book of Treaties is best totally taken out of its central role in the use of the cult elementals. Remove it, or just keep it was a bit of background detail that is unimportant day to day, as described above, by making them available as cult spirits. But sure, if studied it not only includes such rituals (even if they are not usually necessary), but also increases Pavis Cult Lore, and maybe the original Dominate <Elemental> spells, but might allow a chance at Mastery of the Magic rune? The Book of the Alchemical Wedding of Lord Pavis sounds a lot of fun for a game, with allegorical stories of weirdness that may mean anything. But who knows what spells it has, or if they are useful. I'd be inclined to have a spell (or spells) that uses the Harmony rune plus a primary Power rune to increase the effective usage of its Opposed rune (as the Irripi Ontor spells Discern Constellation and Commune with Planet increase use of certain runes). Or even both the primary rune AND its opposed rune. Or spells that similarly reduce elemental tensions. Certainly a chance to Master the Harmony Rune sounds very appropriate to it. But it can also contain whatever occult secrets and unusual spells you would like it to. The main magical spell contained in the Book of the Essential Man would appear to be its spells to allow various Man rune creatures to reproduce. I doubt these are best done as simple spells, the creation of such an unusual person shouldn't be just a case of knowing a weird spell, but rather as complex rituals and perhaps even minor heroquests, requiring the satisfying of obscure pre-requisites such as boosting Fertility and Harmony rune above 100% by magical means, casting Pregnancy (easy if you are a Nandan initiate, not so easy if not), contacting appropriate fertility entities (the blessing of a Tilntae?), and so on. But an increase in the Man rune, an increase in Cult Lore (Pavis), a chance to Master the Man rune, etc are all fine. Which leaves the Master of the Faceless King. This, on the other hand, is a book full of practical magic Pavis used to built and sustain his city, and should be full of useful, if localised, magic. A combination of Man rune and Mostali magic, perhaps unique to Pavis and Flintnail working together, all limited to the city of Pavis. Soothe the Dyspeptic Stomach seems to be largely identical to Neutralise Darkness, but it discriminates between hostile and benign Darkness magic, and it is ritual, with a range (special) for the prepared area (temporal, passive). Runes Harmony and Darkness, Technique probably Separate Harmony of the Parts really seems a repackaging of the City Harmony effect, but is a different spell. it doesn't fit the sorcery rules well. I'd repackage it as a generic suppression of passions spell. Again we hardly need to have a full description of the spell to open the Room Without Doors unless your character is a priest of Pavis. It is a ritual, it uses the Stasis rune probably, and the Command technique. Other spells to open other secret magical spaces within the city of Pavis (Ian Thompsons work has many examples) would be appropriate, and useful. The other spells I'd tend to concentrate, like Soothe Dyspeptic Stomach, on the symbolic nature of the City as a magical body. A lot of what Jeff says here is relevant. Spells tend to be cast on part of the city, rather than an individual. They invoke part of the magical body. A spell that invokes the Stasis rune and the strength of his arms to make city defences stronger - extra APs to anything made of city stone it is cast on. A spell that invokes harmony and his legs to make travel within the city less fatiguing. A spell that invokes the power of his Liver to purify water and with disease within an area of the city. A spell that uses the power of the Eyestones to let you see any area within the city. A spell that awakens the Toothstones, magical guardians of the city (of course, you'd need to be near a Toothstone for it to be useful). Other spells that invoke (or suppress) the power of the Heart, the Lungs, or other organs of the city would be appropriate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davecake Posted October 23 Share Posted October 23 Flintnail magic There are pretty much two things that will happen when this cult is rewritten for RQG. The first option is that this cult, when it is published, will be understood as what it seems to be, and was stated to be in HQG - a group of dwarven apostate influenced by OpenHandist heresy and other strange influences to join with Lord Pavis using their Mostali magic, which resembles sorcery. The rune spells it had in RQ2 - Mold Rock, Shape Metal, Support, and Warrior of Stone, Extension, Dismiss Elementals and Summon Small and Medium Gnomes - will be replaced with their RQG sorcery/Mostali equivalents. So Shape Stone, Shape (various metals), Stabilize Stone, the sorcery spells of Summon Earth Elemental and Dominate Earth Elemental. Extension is redundant due too the nature of sorcerous duration, and rather than creating a sorcerous dismiss spell, just let them try to use Dominate Earth Elemental at double cost. Warrior of Stone is such a nicely described spell I'd create it separately, rather than a variation on Forge Jolanti I'd make it a variation on Bind Elemental that creates an elemental binding ready to animate the statue it is placed in. Those spells are mostly Rock caste spells, but dealing with Earth Elementals is Tin caste magic. Either the Flintnail dwarves include (at least) both Rock and Tin dwarves among their number and they work closely together, or Flintnail (probably a True Mostali who predates dwarven ideas of caste, and likely a heretic who doesn't much care for orthodox caste laws) has shared both Rock and Tin dwarf magic with his followers, and probably allowed some of the Pavis EWF sorcery to get mixed in. Or option two is that the sorcerous version of the cult will be largely ignored, either outright ignored or somehow explained away, and the cult will be republished as a normal rune cult whose members are dwarves and whose spells just happen to be very similar to Mostali sorcery. This would be very disappointing to me, it would feel a lot like throwing away 30+ years of developing a richer more complex and interesting Glorantha. However, some evidence that the occasional bursts of deep setting conservatism and/or conscious return to RQ2 that somehow crop up in RQG might lead to this route being taken exists, as Mold Rock, Shape Metal, Support, and Warrior of Stone all already exist as rune spells in RBoM. Or the third possibility is, of course, some sort of strange hybrid that tries to reconcile both in some odd way. Place your bets? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metcalph Posted October 23 Share Posted October 23 Think there ought to be a rule against subjecting six year old posts to lengthy analysis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akhôrahil Posted October 24 Share Posted October 24 On 9/20/2018 at 6:33 PM, Russ Massey said: I'm assuming that Pavis won't be included in the upcoming Cults supplement It ’s a virtual certainty that it will be included in the new Pavis setting, though. Next year, one hopes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian A. Thomson Posted October 24 Share Posted October 24 (edited) Hi Folks It seems an interesting coincidence my attention being drawn to this discussion now as I am in the finishing stages of the Rough Guide to Pavis City! Two reasons: (1) While I am happy with the compromise description of how the cult work in the P&BRC:DC series as regards magic, it was still a compromise. I chose to create a workable cult with some flexibility depending on what style the GM prefers (old school or more modern interpretations that happened some years after Greg and I had all our discussions) (2) The Rough Guide to Pavis City was always going to have at least a summarized version of the City Cult in it, so I have already been looking at some revisions, though they were relatively minor. Now having seen this discussion I am tempted to put in a whole new alternate version, specifically inspired by the idea above that the cult could appear to be, and act as, a regular theistic one in the outer circles, and then have more sorcerous stuff open to the more deeply initiated. OR be a theist cult with grimoires available only for certain specialist sorcerer types (who would also only be in the inner circles) Not to radically contradict what I have written already, but to expand on it, and create a solid version of the cult at last, of the: "This is exactly how it really works in this campaign" variety I am going to do this, but I hate to reinvent the wheel when creative minds have already been working on this, and I am wondering if anyone in this great discussion is able/willing to collaborate (or even use their work - in exchange for full author credit and book copies of course). You are clearly people who understand the new rules better than I do in this regard :) PS: I am writing up the Guide now so as to clarify the campaign background prior to releasing the last books in the series which will have more overt elements of that background and the Grand Plan in them. Vol. 05 is only waiting for one image before it gets released, and that wait has been great because there's been some small but interesting content changes made in the light of clarifying everything for the Guide. @Russ Massey @davecake @David Scott Edited October 24 by Ian A. Thomson 2 Quote ------------------------------------ Former Issaries Inc. 'Pavis Expert' Some of my creations and co-creations: https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/browse?keyword=Ian Thomson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baron Posted October 24 Share Posted October 24 Well, while I know you have to make the books compatible with the current rules, I'll just say that I appreciate any efforts towards flexibility. I'll be using the material with RQ2 myself. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metcalph Posted October 24 Share Posted October 24 33 minutes ago, Ian A. Thomson said: Now having seen this discussion I am tempted to put in a whole new alternate version, specifically inspired by the idea above that the cult could appear to be, and act as, a regular theistic one in the outer circles, and then have more sorcerous stuff open to the more deeply initiated. OR be a theist cult with grimoires available only for certain specialist sorcerer types (who would also only be in the inner circles) I'm not certain anybody can tell the difference. Any sorcery is always going to be known to a select view given that only bookish types can really excel at it. Given that City Harmony and Support are Rune Spells and known as such by the similar Cult of Sartar (CoR: Lightbringers p32), I doubt that Pavisites know them as sorcery spells. Even if they did, the nature of sorcery makes them unsuitable for most circumstances in which they would be needed. The Elementals of the cult are a different story. It kind of begs incredulity that the cult would have the five elements at its beck and call including those from hostile gods. Having the elementals available to them as sorcery might make better sense since there will be different limits on the size of elementals that can be summoned and also meshes with how the elementals have been described in past sources. Quote If one priest of Pavis calls on that elemental during a week, another priest cannot call on the same elemental later in that week. Should the particular elemental summoned by a spell lose its POW (as in a spirit combat), no spirit will replace him until the next cult high holy day. Cults of Prax p50. On the other hand, the cult might summon the elements via rune magics as said previously but the power to obtain those elements (the treaties) comes through the sorcery known to the cult. The choice is yours. The cult may have more exotic sorcery spells available but nothing that's going to make them a Master of Magic. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian A. Thomson Posted October 24 Share Posted October 24 (edited) I am just a total adaptor of everything when I run games, and absolutely expect that to happen with the books and the cult information There will remain at least a couple of advisory notes on adjusting whatever is presented into your own unique style :) Edited October 24 by Ian A. Thomson 1 Quote ------------------------------------ Former Issaries Inc. 'Pavis Expert' Some of my creations and co-creations: https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/browse?keyword=Ian Thomson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
French Desperate WindChild Posted October 24 Share Posted October 24 imo, the Pavis cult should be seen as any cult = runespell. Is Pavis a god, a demigod, a hero, etc.. is not really important for me (you gain runespell from the other world). As human can join the cult, that's cannot be some specific dwarf magic (if I understand well, standard dwarf activity is not based on "real" gloranthan sorcery, but on "natural" gloranthan dwarf magic. the game design that players/GM follow is "just" the same "economic model" : manipulation, technics, mp) then if Pavis cult provides sorcery, that is like any cult providing sorcery (LM for example). A list of spells, runes, technics, the cult teaches, maybe some prohibited spells, runes or technics. Maybe some condition to learn sorcery too (oath, rank, int minimum, etc...) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Scott Posted October 24 Share Posted October 24 5 hours ago, Ian A. Thomson said: Hi Folks It seems an interesting coincidence my attention being drawn to this discussion now as I am in the finishing stages of the Rough Guide to Pavis City! @David Scott Until the RQG version of the cult appears (it wasn't in the Cults' preview), I'd suggest looking at the RQ2 version in Pavis: Threshold to Danger. I'd skip the Pavis GTA version due to the mechanics, while I like them (and was involved with writing them), they are unlikely to be a good reflection of what may come in RQG. Pavis is a small city god and so looking at the others published for RQG is always useful. Overall i'd suggest keeping it the same, using the RQG descriptions for spells. I'd also suggest: Rune spells. Pavis has only one, City Harmony. I'd suggest the common spells of: Divination, Extension, Heal Wound, Spirit Block, Warding and no enchantments The elemental spells are noted as by treaty and only available in a limited way. I'd suggest that these are actually bound elementals supplied by the associate cult and can be controlled with an appropriately suppled Command spell. So these cults actually teach the priests Command Darkness elemental, etc, not summon. No sorcery, and even if there was some, it would be dwarf sorcery per EG 107. 2 Quote ----- Search the Glorantha Resource Site: https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com. Search the Glorantha mailing list archives: https://glorantha.steff.in/digests/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian A. Thomson Posted October 25 Share Posted October 25 (edited) Thanks heaps for all the input :) My main job here is to tidy up the cult magic a bit since there is a series opportunity to add a historical version (which could be used as an alternate campaign version), and I had a go yesterday with a few options. The one that wrote itself in terms of compatibility with the feel of the campaign was 'Normal Theist Outer Cult with hidden grimoires for inner circles of membership'. The outer version is already done. (I am always grateful when a piece of writing just pours out from the keyboard!!!) Next job is to look at the info/angles above (thanks Russ and others) and create those grimoires :) I am in an interesting position with all this, because as much as I like staying as close to canon as possible, I am also treating what I discussed with Greg as more foundational for the purposes of this series Since those times he has gregged himself on various points. Plus new elements were added that spun things off in a different direction. Based on that trend, I am fairly certain (though could be wrong) that the next version of the official Pavis Cult that will be released won't match the concepts that we were developing back then One of the things we discussed was that Pavis had sorcerous elements, so interestingly the GtA version may end up being closer to the ideas he had back then than any new version But yes, who knows. I won't wait for some new official version and try and match that though. Although if it happened to be published before the hardcopy of Vol. 06A is finalised next year I'll certainly take a look and see if they can be matched up at all My primary goal right now is to flesh out the ideas from back then in an even more coherent way that matches the tone we were working on. And there is a secondary goal of adapting some of the later sorcery stuff into the cult because (a) it exists, and (b) We had already discussed the idea that there was sorcery involved Edited October 25 by Ian A. Thomson 2 Quote ------------------------------------ Former Issaries Inc. 'Pavis Expert' Some of my creations and co-creations: https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/browse?keyword=Ian Thomson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davecake Posted October 25 Share Posted October 25 On 10/24/2024 at 1:18 PM, Ian A. Thomson said: I am going to do this, but I hate to reinvent the wheel when creative minds have already been working on this, and I am wondering if anyone in this great discussion is able/willing to collaborate (or even use their work - in exchange for full author credit and book copies of course). You are clearly people who understand the new rules better than I do in this regard 🙂 Very happy to collaborate, or just have what I said above be used. I'd be very happy if the description of how the cults use of elementals as Cult Spirits I outlined above is used. It seems to me to be the formulation that is most compatible with the original description of the cult, and the current rules, and in addition makes the ritual exchanges between the cults make sense, and has less ambiguity. 23 hours ago, metcalph said: I'm not certain anybody can tell the difference. Any sorcery is always going to be known to a select view given that only bookish types can really excel at it. Yes. Though the Pavis cult priests have a tendency towards bookish types - 'they train in knowledge arts...' in Cults of Prax. But CoP also says that 'Each Daughter of Pavis specialises in a particular aspect of the cult..' so there may be only one or two that seriously pursue sorcery beyond the trivial (a few rote learned rituals like that to open the perhaps). 23 hours ago, metcalph said: Given that City Harmony and Support are Rune Spells and known as such by the similar Cult of Sartar (CoR: Lightbringers p32), I doubt that Pavisites know them as sorcery spells. I 100% agree on City Harmony, which as the 'standard' city god rune spell is probably known by many city gods with not the slightest association with sorcery. The description of Harmony of the Parts makes it awkward to put in the current sorcery rules anyway - especially as RQG sorcery is effectively a a ritual casting for all but the most dedicated sorcerer. The sorcerous version could be completely rewritten or discarded entirely without any great loss, or its similarity to City Harmony could be regarded as just an odd coincidence. And while Support seems clearly based on dwarf magic in both cases, and Support seems designed for use during planned construction projects mostly, so it doesn't matter much if its casting time is high, its a little more of an edge case - but the rune spell is already written, and the precedent that it can be a dwarf secret that is the source of a rune magic spell set by Sartar, so I think there is no problem with keeping it as is. If Sartar can do it, Pavis can do it. The main question is whether the dwarves of the Flintnail cult consider it to be dwarf sorcery, which is a little more complex to me. But still avoidable if you wish - the Flintnail cult could easily be a rune cult in practice with dwarf sorcery either an inner secret or an ancient origin. Peter says we handle the cults access to elementals as sorcery, and David as Command Elemental but without Summoning but via Binding enchantments. I don't agree with either of these (as a core mechanic for normal access to these elementals). 23 hours ago, metcalph said: The Elementals of the cult are a different story. It kind of begs incredulity that the cult would have the five elements at its beck and call including those from hostile gods. Having the elementals available to them as sorcery might make better sense since there will be different limits on the size of elementals that can be summoned and also meshes with how the elementals have been described in past sources. There is a very good explanation of why the cult has access to these elementals in the sources, as treaty renewed by annual ritual. And neither of these really map well to how they are represented in older sources. If it was sorcery, while the size restrictions would be different, an annual ritual would surely get something beyond a small elemental, and there would be no explanation why one elemental must be shared amongst the cult - if they needed an extra one, or a bigger one, or their elemental got killed and they wanted it back, why wouldn't they just repeat the ritual? Making it a sorcery spell asks more questions than it answers. 18 hours ago, David Scott said: The elemental spells are noted as by treaty and only available in a limited way. I'd suggest that these are actually bound elementals supplied by the associate cult and can be controlled with an appropriately suppled Command spell. So these cults actually teach the priests Command Darkness elemental, etc, not summon. The elemental providers aren't associate cults except in one case (Zola Fel). So they would not normally provide any spells, especially as they are hostile cults, and making them associates would raise many other issues (eg if Kygor Litor was regarded as associate, could they renew spells at each others ceremonies?) Precedent for cults to have cult spirits that originate with hostile cults exists in several cases. It is much cleaner not to use the Associate Cult designation. Making it a bound elemental, in the sense of filling a binding item, significantly changes how the spell operates. Such a binding item would need to be physically shared amongst the cult hierarchy, and so use would have to be pre-meditated. The description of how it operated in the past implied they could be summoned as needed. The binding item would literally be stealable. And the source of the elemental would be irrelevant - the elemental within could be replaced by another elemental, potentially a larger one, from any source at all (eg if they can't summon Earth elementals, why would they even care that they have this small bound elemental, they'd be better off to throw a small earth elemental away and get Flintnail cultists to summon a bigger one to replace it?) The other issue here is that Command [Darkness, etc] Elemental in the generic sense does to actually exist in the RQG RAW - Commanding elementals doesn't really show up as an example of what you use Command <Species> for (that's for animals, usually, though there are a few examples where a cult is just given Command <species> that could be ambiguous - eg a river god with Command River Nymph could be regarded as being able to command any river nymph, but I think it means only nymphs of that river and its tributaries), rather, Command Elemental is an example of what Command Cult Spirit is used for. And Summon Elemental is just a special case of Summon Cult Spirit. In every case you are limited to the spirits available to the cult, so why wouldn't the Pavis cult have access to these spells directly anyway? If the elementals are regarded as Cult Spirits, then it all works fine and the limits are maintained by simply stating there is just one (or sometimes none) elemental of that element available for use, and trying to impose those limits by using entirely different mechanisms (the binding enchantment rules) introduces limitations that are unnecessary and complicate things. All you've had to do is note the unusual origin and limits on these cult spirits, everything else works as expected. So using the binding rules to impose limits here is a square peg in a round hole - it only approximates what you want, raises additional questions, and there is a better solution right there. 19 hours ago, David Scott said: Rune spells. Pavis has only one, City Harmony. Plus associate cult spells. Heal Body is a pretty big one, and as long as Pavis has the elves of the Garden right there I see no reason for them to not have access to it. As I said, I'd remove Sunripen, as it now would have to be from Yelm. If the Pavis cult really wants a Sunripen, they can ask an elf to come cast it for them, I suppose. 19 hours ago, David Scott said: No sorcery, and even if there was some, it would be dwarf sorcery per EG 107. But that's no fun, Dave! We know Pavis has access to lots of magic beyond his cult spells anyway, and not just via Flintheart, and the grimoires are very flavourful and contain many cool ideas that are quite different to dwarf sorcery. Besides, there aren't really any notable rules differences between the two rules, unless you make the Pavis magic all require POW sacrifice and have to adhere to known Mostali Techniques. We'd just be putting the nature of Pavis magic back to zero, and removing most of the interesting stuff. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davecake Posted October 25 Share Posted October 25 On 10/24/2024 at 2:09 PM, metcalph said: On the other hand, the cult might summon the elements via rune magics as said previously but the power to obtain those elements (the treaties) comes through the sorcery known to the cult. The choice is yours. Yes, the precise details of how the cult obtains the service of those elements, and renews/replaces them in annual ceremonies, could be sorcerous in origin, or could be a minor heroquest or ritual, or could be sorcerous in origin but now performed by rote (like Open Seas), and I don't think it needs to be clarified unless you have a PC Pavis priest and want to make it a scenario focus. You can absolutely ignore the issue in a cult writeup. On 10/24/2024 at 2:09 PM, metcalph said: The cult may have more exotic sorcery spells available but nothing that's going to make them a Master of Magic. The only powerful spells that anyone has really suggested they have that are of notable power are those dealing with the Faceless Stone Statue and the city created from it. So IMO they would be of moderate, but inflexible, utility within the city (eg Sooth the Dyspeptic Stomach would be a useful, but not unbalancing, spell for troll fighting), and you only get to be a Master of Magic capable of great heroic deeds as Pavis was if you manage to find another Faceless Stone Statue somehow. Maybe at the Plateau of Statues? It would be a fun campaign, but it's absolutely beyond the scope of a cult writeup. And creating a half-elf or half-dwarf child (or something more exotic) would be a really cool thing to happen, but it is hardly unbalancing or enough to establish the creator as a great magical power. Just another odd but interesting heroquest result really. 22 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said: A list of spells, runes, technics, the cult teaches, maybe some prohibited spells, runes or technics. Maybe some condition to learn sorcery too (oath, rank, int minimum, etc...) Most of this can be taken from Cults of Prax for Rune cult purposes, as discussed, though Pavis there has too many runes by modern standards. I'd give him Man and Harmony, just noting that he has some association with Earth and Stasis, and is opposed to Disorder. I think the limit to learn sorcery would be a high value in Devotion (Pavis), maybe they'd make it a requirement to start by trying to master Harmony or Man. I'd say the cult as a sorcerous school has knowledge of Mastery of Man and Harmony and the Technique of Combine, and Flintnail possibly is a source of mastery of Earth and Stasis mastery if allowed to learn their sorcery as well (though Pavis has a connection to the earth via Aldrya too, and could have learnt sorcery via the EWF before arriving in Pavis) and if Flintnail magic is sorcery, they would know Mostali Techniques inherently. Sorcerous schools don't seem to care much about forbidding knowledge of sorcery beyond what they know, and it would seem to be very unlikely that much other EWF sorcery would be discoverable anyway. Though obviously Chaos sorcery would be an awkward thing to admit to studying, the Pavis cult wasn't hostile to the Red Goddess. 22 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said: Is Pavis a god, a demigod, a hero, etc.. is not really important for me (you gain runespell from the other world). He is enough to grant rune spells is all that really matters, agreed. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
French Desperate WindChild Posted October 25 Share Posted October 25 20 minutes ago, davecake said: Sorcerous schools don't seem to care much about forbidding knowledge of sorcery beyond what they know, and it would seem to be very unlikely that much other EWF sorcery would be discoverable anyway. Though obviously Chaos sorcery would be an awkward thing to admit to studying, the Pavis cult wasn't hostile to the Red Goddess My opinion (but I have not enough knowledge about it) is that any "school", from any type of magic (divine, spirit, sorcery) teaches more than just "spell effect". There are behind some philosophy, values, codes, etc.. I'm not saying that a school forbids everything , if not in its own "list of spells" but could forbid some behaviour (then spells) For example a school of builders may have some restriction like "never destroy any building, even a ruin" because they values any building work (a ruin may be beautiful art, even a bad ruin may teach some lesson, etc) So this school may forbid any sorcery spell destroying stone, or wood or... when another one is focused on "progress" (from its perspective) and will have a moto like "always destroy ruins and replace it by new building". This other school of builders could teach the spells that the more "conservative" school forbids. that's important, for me, from a background perspective. Any source of power (even a sword master) should be seen as something more complex than "only access to the power, pay 200 guilders and get +3d6". Passions (loyalty, etc..) is a part of that but more important is, imo, the relationship between the source and the world, what story/scenario you can create based on that. What allies, antagonists, choices the characters who want to acquire the power (aka the % skill or spell) will face, what they should demonstrate to be accepted, what they should promise, etc... after all even this irl source of power , this forum we joined years /months/ days ago , has some restrictions . 😛 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soltakss Posted October 25 Share Posted October 25 On 10/24/2024 at 7:09 AM, metcalph said: The Elementals of the cult are a different story. It kind of begs incredulity that the cult would have the five elements at its beck and call including those from hostile gods. Having the elementals available to them as sorcery might make better sense since there will be different limits on the size of elementals that can be summoned and also meshes with how the elementals have been described in past sources. The Pavis Cult cannot summon 5 types of Elementals, instead it can summon 5 Elementals. From the Cult Compendium "All of the following spells are 1-point spells and their characteristics are as in the rules. Each spell has call on a single elemental allotted by treaty. If one priest of Pavis calls upon a particular elemental during a week, another priest cannot call on the same elemental later in that week. Should a particular elemental be destroyed by losing its POW (as in spirit combat), no spirit will replace him until the next cult High Holy Day. The temple hierarchy is so arranged that no more than two priests have use of any single elemental summoning spell (not counting the Son of Pavis). All these spells are non-stackable.". 2 Quote Simon Phipp - Caldmore Chameleon - Wallowing in my elitism since 1982. Many Systems, One Family. Just a fanboy. www.soltakss.com/index.html Jonstown Compendium author. Find my contributions here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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