Notes on the Many Suns and the Sun Gods of Prax

[davecake]

On 6/17/2022 at 5:14 AM, Phil O'Connor said:

Greg said (and I paraphrase badly) that Yelm disintegrated when he was killed with Death, into seven parts. Every god has seven parts btw, even mortals do. One of those parts was his illuminated part, the act of dying illuminated Yelm (at least in the divine sense) and this illuminated part was called different names, Bijiff was an early one. Another name was Rashoran.

I think that was an early version of what Greg changed a bit when Glorious Reascent of Yelm and The Fortunate Succession were released. We now understand that the early Dara Happans understood all people, and gods, to have six parts. One part was Bijiif, the part of Yelm that went down to the underworld. But later, the Illuminates of the Bright Empire recognised the secret seventh part of everyone, that had been first recognised by Rashoran and later by Nysalor, the mystic part. So GROY, a very early Dara Happan document, goes into detail about the six parts, the much later TFS mentions the seventh part (and the modern Lunars are very explicit about the seventh part of the self, as a core Lunar teaching). While Yelm always had the seventh part, as all beings do, it was only after being reborn at the Dawn that Yelm recognised his seventh part, and only after the birth of Osentalka/Nysalor, and the Sunstop, that he was fully returned and re-unified as Yelm. Though parts of Yelms power had returned before that (particularly the post-Dawn but pre-Sunstop Emperors and prophets, though seeing themselves as directly following Antirius, wielded the Sunspear).
The modern Yelm cult understand this as Yelm having experienced being both the One and the Many, and so this allows the Many to experience the One through Illumination (roughly). But the relationship between the Yelm cult and Illumination has changed multiple times over the centuries, among other changes, as documented in TFS. 

The 6 parts of man story is GROY pg 10, the dissolution of Yelm into his six parts on page 15-16. The full return of Yelm at the Sunstop TFS pg 18. 
 

On 6/17/2022 at 5:14 AM, Phil O'Connor said:

Elmal was the way that the storm tribe worshipped Yelm, or the part of him that became friends with Orlanth in hell during the Lightbringer's Quest.

I think that’s wrong - Elmal is one of the parts of Yelm that remained on the surface, and became friends with Orlanth (and the Orlanthi) during the Great Darkness when other parts of Yelm were in hell. Specifically, in Orlanthi myth Elmal remained behind to guard the stead while Orlanth departed. 

On 6/17/2022 at 5:14 AM, Phil O'Connor said:

Of course Elmal is not Yelm, he is a part of Yelm, more specifically the part of him that is associated with the Light of Yelm, the Little Sun,  Lightfore, The Young God, Antirius, Yelmalio to the Dara Happans (Broken Council). 

Yes, Antirius in GROY. The part of Yelm that remained behind and protected the Earth during the Great Darkness. 
The Orlanthi were not the only Lightfore cult that believed that when the sun rose, that meant the Lightfore Little Sun god became both the Sun and the Emperor of the Universe again, the Pentan Kargzant cultists did too. The Kargzant cult seems to have understood this early, but confusion between Elmal as the the Light in the Darkness (a part of the sun) vs the full Sun god (and Emperor) persisted in some form for centuries - and seemed only finally fully resolved by Monrogh. 
 

On 6/18/2022 at 8:32 AM, radmonger said:

For an Elmali who stays in the role of Yelm the Youth, deferring to his elders, this fine theological point makes no practical difference. But any time an Elmali takes over a rulership position, or marries an Ernaldan, history shows they continuously start sprouting fire powers, giving orders and deferring to distant relatives who can prove superior lineage.

Another way of understanding something like this, from a more Dara Happan viewpoint, is that Elmal is Lightfore, the Light in the Darkness, same as Antirius and Yelmalio - and those actions are taking on the roles of the other parts of Yelm, or of the powers that only the god complete can wield. Marrying an Ernaldan in a sacred marriage is permitted - indeed, it’s the only possible marriage for the most holy Yelmalio worshippers - but that is because the Little Sun, unlike Yelm, has no fertility or Life powers of his own, but only accesses them through the Earth goddess (Yelm himself has no such restrictions - he has his own powers of life, and his spouse becomes holy by being blessed with his power - but they usually marry only Dendarans in Dara Happa). Wielding Fire power directly (other than through the authority of Yelm) is to wield the powers of Enverinus the Fire god. And so on. So wielding these powers they stray from just representing Yelms Justice, to becoming Yelm. And there are pretty strict rules for becoming Yelm! Like being from a sacred family, a descendant of Yelm. 
And note that Antirius is not the Emperor, but the protector of Emperors. Emperors can exist that do not incarnate Yelm, because Emperors existed during the Darkness when Yelm was broken, and during the Silver Age just before the Dawn when Yelm had not yet returned. But those Emperors who do not have the blessing and protection of Antirius, Yelms justice, will be Bad Emperors, and a disgrace. And now that Yelm has returned, Yelms Justice will not protect anyone who is not also blessed by Yelm. 
Whether an Emperor could exist now who is a Just and true Emperor is a question that Pelorian historians and theologians might debate among themselves - but clearly an Emperor who is not a true member of the Yelm cult is able to become Emperor and pass the Ten Tests, they will just possibly be a terrible one (and everyone gets very upset once they talk about that time a dragon became Emperor). And it gets real awkward if they discuss the possibility of a Pure Horse Yu-Kargzant worshipper becoming a valid Emperor, and the Imperial agents start looking around to see who harbours Seleric sympathies and must be purged (though the reign of the Jenarong dynasty is not denied, and they were definitely better than no Emperor at all). But no one can deny that there have been Emperors who were not proper Yelm worshippers, according to GROY and TFS, so it’s legally and magically valid, just very bad and very wrong to want it. An Emperor may have the blessing of Antirius - but a true Yelmic Emperor will have it, because Antirius is an intrinsic part of Yelm. 

On 6/18/2022 at 8:32 AM, radmonger said:

The part of Yelm involved there was _not_ Lightfore/AntiriusYelmalio, who was still in the surface world, but the Emperor/Murharzarm.

The part was Bijiif, who the Orlanthi identify as Maggotliege/The Dead Emperor in Hell. But it wasn’t Murharzarm, only the spirit/Core of Murharzarm, because Murharzarm split into his 6/7 parts, just as Yelm does in response to Murharzarms death. Whether the power of sovereignty that makes for a true and valid Emperor is connected to Bijiif, and can exist when Yelm/Murharzarm exists only as parts not the whole, is something that might get debated (certainly, without it Emperors lack most of their traditional power over the physical world) - but Dara Happans say that if any single part of Yelm is associated with sovereignty it is Antirius, who remains on the surface. There are Emperors that are held in high regard in Dara Happan myth, but rule after the death/dissolution of Murharzarm/Yelm - Khorventos, Anaxial, Lukarius, Manarlavus, etc.

So I think as far as Yelmic theology goes, Elmal is a misunderstanding of course, but the problem is mistaking the rebel Orlanth for the Emperor Yelm, and so being subservient to the wrong authority. There is nothing wrong in becoming ruler over such barbarian tribes, should you find yourself among them. Antirius/Anatyr/Elmal has more claim to rule over the heathens than anyone else. Thinking that he can take the place of Yelm because he rules over such benighted heathens makes him Yelm is of course false, but he can wield some of the authority of Yelm perhaps as long as he acknowledges the authority of Yelm the father, becoming perhaps a barbaric version of Murharzarm. 
Elmal as chief is a problem for the Orlanthi only. And the problem is thinking two different models of sovereignty are the same. A Yelmic Emperor, and an Orlanthi Chief, are very different in how sovereignty is decided, and the nature of Rulership. Yelm is the One, and the Emperor wields his authority. Power over the world, and power over men, come from the same source when the world is at rights and this is the power of Justice. Orlanth is the first among the Many. If there is any deity that is the source of sovereignty, it is the Earth Queen, who alone grants power over the world - and when the world is at rights, the power over men and the world are unified by love and Honour. Elmal as chieftain confuses these issues wildly - and Monrogh settle the question exactly the way the Orlanthi Princes of Sartar prefer, by saying Elmal is Yelmalio, and so can never have the power of Justice and the right of rulership over the world in his own right, never start to take on the power of Yelm, only wield Yelms authority second hand. The only way Elmal becomes King is by accepting that sovereignty comes from the Earth - and Yelmalio cannot do that, because Yelmalio believes his father Yelm is the sole source of sovereignty. Yelmalio can only wield power over men, by asserting Justice - but to become sacred ruler would require the Earth Queen to submit and giver up her sovereignty claim. 

[Joerg]

43 minutes ago, davecake said:

The Orlanthi were not the only Lightfore cult that believed that when the sun rose, that meant the Lightfore Little Sun god became both the Sun and the Emperor of the Universe again, the Pentan Kargzant cultists did too. The Kargzant cult seems to have understood this early, but confusion between Elmal as the the Light in the Darkness (a part of the sun) vs the full Sun god (and Emperor) persisted in some form for centuries - and seemed only finally fully resolved by Monrogh. 

The Orlanthi actually put that right in 109 or 110 ST with the Bridling of Kargzant. That event has been described as Umath chaining Yelm in an early Malkioni document, but my personal favorite theory is that we see Elmal chaining the runaway Horse Lord.

After this effect, we have a single solar object in the day sky, a regular Lightfore, and IMO the unification of the Sun Disk and the Cold Sun.

One side effect is that the Sunspear becomes available to Avivath, doing some dynastic pruning with some of the nastier specimen of the Jenarong rite emperors.

It took another century of warfare before the Jenarong dynasty was toppled, and half a century for the Khordavu dynasty to start cooperating with the Dorastans, to start the identification of the Evil Emperor with Yelm.

[Phil O'Connor]

14 hours ago, davecake said:

And note that Antirius is not the Emperor, but the protector of Emperors. Emperors can exist that do not incarnate Yelm, because Emperors existed during the Darkness when Yelm was broken, and during the Silver Age just before the Dawn when Yelm had not yet returned. But those Emperors who do not have the blessing and protection of Antirius, Yelms justice, will be Bad Emperors, and a disgrace. And now that Yelm has returned, Yelms Justice will not protect anyone who is not also blessed by Yelm. 
Whether an Emperor could exist now who is a Just and true Emperor is a question that Pelorian historians and theologians might debate among themselves - but clearly an Emperor who is not a true member of the Yelm cult is able to become Emperor and pass the Ten Tests, they will just possibly be a terrible one (and everyone gets very upset once they talk about that time a dragon became Emperor). And it gets real awkward if they discuss the possibility of a Pure Horse Yu-Kargzant worshipper becoming a valid Emperor, and the Imperial agents start looking around to see who harbours Seleric sympathies and must be purged (though the reign of the Jenarong dynasty is not denied, and they were definitely better than no Emperor at all). But no one can deny that there have been Emperors who were not proper Yelm worshippers, according to GROY and TFS, so it’s legally and magically valid, just very bad and very wrong to want it. An Emperor may have the blessing of Antirius - but a true Yelmic Emperor will have it, because Antirius is an intrinsic part of Yelm. 

 

Thanks for that, insightful. The way Greg explained it to me, the central conflict in Glorantha is between Yelm and Orlanth, and this has not changed even after the compromise. The disintegration of Yelm may have broken and scattered his power, and his absence may have allowed Chaos into the world, but the cause of the slow dissolution of Glorantha each age is due to the nature of both Yelm and Orlanth. Yelm may have been scattered and broken but he is always trying to return to his rightful place as Emperor of the World. This is his nature, to be Emperor of the World. Orlanth had to replace him and become King of the Gods, but he is constantly being challenged by Yelm who will eternally be trying to re-assemble himself and sit once more on the throne of Glorantha. This is the cause of the struggles that plague each age and leads to catastrophic conflict with each incarnation of Yelm's imperial justice re-asserting itself in the world. The first age it was as Nysalor, a god once known as Rashoran or Rashorana (or both) and who tried to be worshipped as the New Sun. The second age it was as the Dragon sitting on the throne of Yuthuppa. In the third age it is Sedenya, the feminine part of Yelm, Rashorana resurrected, the illuminated goddess of time that tries to re-assert the divine rule of Yelm as the Goddess of the Middle Sky, displacing Orlanth and placing her male avatar upon the throne of the Emperor. 

The problem is that this conflict damages the compromise each time it happens and lets in more chaos, weakening the fabric of the world even further. Orlanth understands this as the main threat to Glorantha, but Yelm pre-dates Chaos and has a blind spot for it (pun intended), Yelm does not acknowledge chaos as a threat, only his lack of dominion over the world as the problem. 

Each part of Yelm was worshipped separately by different peoples as the many suns, and at one stage or another they  attempted to place their own vision of Yelm's part on the throne of the true Emperor. They all failed eventually since each part is an incomplete piece of the whole, but it isn't for lack of trying. The worship of Elmal lasted a good three ages though, not bad. This eternal conflict between Yelm and Orlanth will cause the eventually dissipation of divine forces in Glorantha.  

Edited July 4, 2022 by Phil O'Connor