Notes on the Many Suns and the Sun Gods of Prax

[JonL]

I'm most curious about the one in Fronela. It would have been at the far frontier of the Bright Empire, and removed from all the EWF, Monrogh, Lunar, etc. meddling. What does Palangio's Dayanserus cult look like after being left alone in the far North for several hundred years?

[Leingod]

12 hours ago, JonL said:

I speculate that a modern Elmali would suck in an adherent of Danfive Xaron from the triumphant closing act of a Lunar Storm-fighting quest to appear as Yonesh. Sky Tribe symbolism sees Sedenya/Moon as an inconsistent and cold Sun. DX's Moon rune encompasses Storm much like cold Yonesh is "riddled with Storm runes."

Fun part would be if that Elmali later did quests where Yavor's head is his ally/counselor, he'd probably drag that same Lunar along as the head. Perhaps an opportunity for detente arises.

Alternatively, the "Cold Sun" fought at the end could be Yelmalio (replacing the Little Yelm station with some other sun god. Kargzant?), depending on what the Heroquest was meant to accomplish. If it's about establishing Elmal as superior to and not a subject of any other Solar entity (thus countering the Dara Happan influence and Lunar revelations that apparently prompted Sartarite Elmali to rebel, while also refuting Monrogh's own answer to this dilemma), you could also include the story from The Book of Heortling Mythology where Elmal is attacked by his jealous brothers who want to steal his brightness (to become the Sun?), only for Elmal to manifest Justice as a "stick" (elsewhere identified as a spear. Lawstaff?) and defeat them, thus taking away "the last particle of decency of the Fire Tribe" as he wanders away with Justice (which he eventually gives to Orlanth).

[M Helsdon]

11 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

It's hard to think that the Salantor Sun Dome Temple, in the middle of the woods, focuses on traditional Yelmalio phalanges.

Well, its on the edge of the woods, in a river valley. Much like the Macedonians, who fielded phalangites from their mountainous and wooded land, I would expect  the Salantor Sun Dome to field phalanxes to support and defend lowland Aggar, and raise peltasts to both protect its flanks and fight in woodland.

[soltakss]

On 7/22/2019 at 6:23 AM, Shiningbrow said:

So - what's to stop an Elmali from getting the Sunspear spell if the gods are actually the same?

The gods are the same, but the Cult worships an Aspect of the God. The Elmal cult worships "Elmal the Thane" who served Orlanth. The yelmalio Cult worships "Yelmalio the Son of Yelm" and gets Sunspear as an Associate Cult. Yelm is not an Associate Cult of Elmal, as Elmal follows Yelm's rival and murderer.

[davecake]

I tend to think of Sunspear as not so much a generic Solar power, but a specific Yelm thing. The whole Avivath the Sunspear hero, etc. I tend to agree that Elmal does not get it, because Yelmalio gets it from Yelm and rejecting Yelm is what makes Elmal Elmal. In some ways I think Elmal has more practical access to fire magic, but that reflects the individualist vs centralised power dynamic.

[jajagappa]

On 7/22/2019 at 1:23 AM, Shiningbrow said:

So - what's to stop an Elmali from getting the Sunspear spell if the gods are actually the same?

Accepting Yelm as the Emperor, and accepting Orlanth as the Rebel. The Sunspear comes from Yelm. And doing so breaks Elmal's oath to support Orlanth.

[Lordabdul]

The Glorantha Sourcebook says that Monrogh Lantern (whoever that is 😅) "revealed" that Elmal was another name for Yelmalio, so I guess you could just give Elmalis similar benefits, including a one-use Sunspear for Rune Priests. On the other hand, it may be appropriate (given Elmal's history) to nerf its sun-powers in favour of Lightbringers-related benefits. It might even be one or the other depending on when your campaign takes places (before or after the "revelation").

11 hours ago, soltakss said:

Yelm is not an Associate Cult of Elmal

Where do you get this? I don't find any mention of Elmal cults in the new material except for that bit above from GS.

 

[Jeff]

8 hours ago, davecake said:

I tend to think of Sunspear as not so much a generic Solar power, but a specific Yelm thing. The whole Avivath the Sunspear hero, etc. I tend to agree that Elmal does not get it, because Yelmalio gets it from Yelm and rejecting Yelm is what makes Elmal Elmal. In some ways I think Elmal has more practical access to fire magic, but that reflects the individualist vs centralised power dynamic.

In what will be the published description of Elmal, that subcult receives no more Fire magic than Yelmalio. Less even, as it doesn't have Yelm as an associated cult.

[soltakss]

6 hours ago, lordabdul said:

17 hours ago, soltakss said:

Yelm is not an Associate Cult of Elmal

Where do you get this? I don't find any mention of Elmal cults in the new material except for that bit above from GS.

 

2 hours ago, Jeff said:

In what will be the published description of Elmal, that subcult receives no more Fire magic than Yelmalio. Less even, as it doesn't have Yelm as an associated cult.

I must be psychic! 🙂

Seriously, though, Elmal is the Unblinded Yelmalio, the Yelmalio who has left Yelm's service and has joined Orlanth. It makes sense that Elmal does not have Yelm as an Associated Cult.

[Qizilbashwoman]

Here's a theological question I'm unclear about: are the seven solar gods around Yelm his souls? (Yamsur is his death.)

Also I need someone to make a meme of the sun gods with Yelmalio in the middle like this one (bloody Nysaloreans)

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Here's a theological question I'm unclear about: are the seven solar gods around Yelm his souls? (Yamsur is his death.)

Where is that from?

Yamsur was the solar god of Genert's Garden, which perished at the battle of Earthfall and cannot be contacted any more, but unlike others of his allies hasn't been totally erased from history. That battle happened as the Storm Age had become the Lessser Darkness and would soon become the Greater Darkness when the Spike imploded. This way quite a while after Yelm had been slain.

Which seven solar gods around Yelm are you referring to?

There is the original Godtime constellation where Yelm sits above the eight Planetary sons who formed a circle around him before Umath invaded the Sky Dome. Each is the solar protector of the city below him (or her, or them), and the central city Raibanth had a similar protective orb above it which isn't counted in this constellation.

Then there is the Disintegration of Yelm (in the Dara Happan version of the myth) after the Rebel God(s) had slain the Emperor (Murharzarm in Dara Happan sources, Orlanthi sources don't mention this name). Yelm's Bird portion Vrimak flies upwards, his fire portion Enverinus slithers off into the land in the shape of a serpent, his ashen body Bijiif (still searing hot and blindingly bright) goes down into Hell, defining the Sunpath, and Antirius the light of his justice becomes the lesser cold sun of the Storm Age (for Dara Happa, the Orlanthi receive Elmal), etc.

These latter portions of Yelm can be said to make up the sum of his souls, but Yamsur has no part in the Dara Happan story. Neither in Orlanth vs. the Emperor.

 

 

[davecake]

11 hours ago, Jeff said:

In what will be the published description of Elmal, that subcult receives no more Fire magic than Yelmalio. Less even, as it doesn't have Yelm as an associated cult.

I know Jeff. But I rate compatibility with your previously published material a but higher than you do, in this case. So I’m going to give Elmal Firearrow and Fireblade. 

 

[Sir_Godspeed]

6 hours ago, Joerg said:

Then there is the Disintegration of Yelm (in the Dara Happan version of the myth) after the Rebel God(s) had slain the Emperor (Murharzarm in Dara Happan sources, Orlanthi sources don't mention this name).

Isn't it heavily implied that the Emperor is Yelm himself in Orlanthi sources, given that it's who Orlanth seeks out in the Underworld in the form of Maggotliege? You're probably right in that the name is never used.

[Joerg]

1 minute ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Isn't it heavily implied that the Emperor is Yelm himself in Orlanthi sources, given that it's who Orlanth seeks out in the Underworld in the form of Maggotliege? You're probably right in that the name is never used.

The Theyalan/Bright Empire mythical synthesis created this universal myth, yes. And it isn't clear whether there was originally only one story which broke apart along with the world as it was reduced to shards of reality in the Greater Darkness, or whether there were many such parallel stories that were recognized as sufficiently parallel to be made into one strong magical string rather than many weak and fragile magical threads. The first three centuries of History were a time of solidifying the world, to prevent it from slipping back into the fragmentation and annihilation of the Greater Darkness.

The Lightbringer missionaries weren't the only ones to work towards this goal, but their efforts at mythical unification did strengthen the world enough that something like the Osentalka project became feasible.

Personally, I like the idea of many parallel truths in the Gods Age, none exclusive, but the development of the monomyth by the God Learners further unified and simplified Godtime, at least at first glance. Heroquesting in the vanilla unified myths has become easier, and heroquesting with the interesting, juicy and potentially world-changing nuances has become harder than it used to be, but at the same time better understood by the systematic questers. But then, natural prodigies like Harrek don't need much understanding for their instinctive maneuvering through the myths.

 

Yes, nowadays Orlanthi claim that their god slew Yelm the Emperor of the universe, and the Dara Happans are willing to give that blame (and also for the death of Murharzarm) to the storm god of the hill people. This does give other rebel gods like Shargash or Sedenya quite a bit of scot free but also binds them somewhat to the service of Yelm.
 

[JonL]

The last few posts use Orlanthi in place of Heortling a fair amount. The Orlanthi in Ralios know the Sun as Ehlim and the Bad Emperor as Malkion (of all people).

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, JonL said:

The last few posts use Orlanthi in place of Heortling a fair amount. The Orlanthi in Ralios know the Sun as Ehlim and the Bad Emperor as Malkion (of all people).

The Enerali in Ralios know the Sun as Ehilm. Whether Malkion is known as the Bad Emperor is another question - it could just as well be The Enchanter (a manifestation of Mostal, or a Mostali?) or Vadel. After all, the Nidan uprising affected not just the Kachisti but also all the beast folk living in the area.

And anyway, the slayer of the sun was Telmor - a well known fact in Ralios.

When I wrote "Orlanthi" I was referring to all the hill barbarians that were ultimately contacted by Lightbringer missionaries and shared the Heortling ways of sacrifice and accessing Orlanth's magic, whichever shape or name of the son of the primal Storm they worshiped before. And if not the Lightbringer missionaries, then Harmast Barefoot made sure that they acknowledged and worshiped Orlanth in Ralios (where he returned with Arkat) and Fronela (where he returned with Talor). They didn't become Heortlings, and they probably didn't learn the secret of I Fought We Won (which IMO shouldn't be common knowledge among the Talastari, either).

Worship of Erulat or Humath is no longer the main practice in Ralios - it is Orlanth. Same across the Nidan range, where Resa(n)t may or may not have been an earlier name for Orlanth. (It shouldn't have been still in use in Jonat's time, though...)

[scott-martin]

10 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Worship of Erulat or Humath is no longer the main practice in Ralios - it is Orlanth. Same across the Nidan range, where Resa(n)t may or may not have been an earlier name for Orlanth. (It shouldn't have been still in use in Jonat's time, though...)

It's an interesting question. One of the things the recent tour through archaic sources taught me is how little we really know about the north . . . the Guide says Orlanthi settled the upper Janube but systematic Lightbringer Missions in the region seem to have stopped at Talsard. After that point, the council program changed and they would have spread Loko Moko instead. Maybe Harmast set them straight when he was in the area but missed a few tribes.

[JonL]

26 minutes ago, Joerg said:

The Enerali in Ralios know the Sun as Ehilm. Whether Malkion is known as the Bad Emperor is another question - it could just as well be The Enchanter (a manifestation of Mostal, or a Mostali?) or Vadel. After all, the Nidan uprising affected not just the Kachisti but also all the beast folk living in the area.

Malkion as the Bad Emperor is in the Guide. I have wondered though if a bunch of Vadeli didn't just say that's who their master was while oppressing the locals, just to be extra petty.

[Joerg]

1 minute ago, scott-martin said:

It's an interesting question. One of the things the recent tour through archaic sources taught me is how little we really know about the north . . . the Guide says Orlanthi settled the upper Janube but systematic Lightbringer Missions in the region seem to have stopped at Talsard. After that point, the council program changed and they would have spread Loko Moko instead. Maybe Harmast set them straight when he was in the area but missed a few tribesio

True, they could have been fed Tarumath by Loky, but after the collapse of the Bright Empire they would have had to return to either their old ways or Orlanth. The Kingdom of Jonatela clearly worships Orlanth (alongside some Invisible God), which means they did so already before th Ban fell. That still leaves about 450 years for the change-over. But then it is possible that the God Learners of the Arimadalla dynasty already had set the Orlanth unification into practice and that Jonat himself was one of the last hold-outs for the original deity.

 

2 minutes ago, JonL said:

Malkion as the Bad Emperor is in the Guide. I have wondered though if a bunch of Vadeli didn't just say that's who their master was while oppressing the locals, just to be extra petty.

Huh, I seem to have missed that. But then, depending on which version you take, Vadel is a descendant of Vyimorn, who in turn is a son of Malkion.

The Fifth Action as reported by Zzabur involved Chaos rather than Storm, though.

[Tindalos]

4 hours ago, Joerg said:

Huh, I seem to have missed that. But then, depending on which version you take, Vadel is a descendant of Vyimorn, who in turn is a son of Malkion.

The Fifth Action as reported by Zzabur involved Chaos rather than Storm, though.

Page 387, for reference, and specifically found in Vesmonstran. Something similar is also followed by the city of Molene, viewing the evil demiurge Makan as having been slain by Worlath (216).

[Ali the Helering]

As ever vive la difference, or YGWV

[Joerg]

Very interesting, and great spotting. When I read that, I automatically jumped to the Nidan uprising of Mostali and Vadeli against the Kachisti. To the local Hykimi (and possibly Enerali) the change in management would have been only gradual.

(Having dug a bit deeper, I wonder whether this liberation was the Plundering of Aron against Seras the Enchanter, possibly also the "birth" event for Orlanth's sister Safa at the Sivin Event of Helamakt's myth. See https://www.glorantha.com/docs/the-enerali-circa-130-st/, https://www.glorantha.com/docs/safelster-in-the-first-age/ and The Plundering of Aron)

However, what is missing is Orlanth Lightbringer (or Worlath) bringing back the purified/atoned version from Hell, unless Harmast returning Arkat then Talor is it.

There is no direct identification of Makan or Malkion with the sun, which is quite refreshing.

The Molene sect takes all the Zzabur myths from Revealed Mythologies and projects them on Makan.

[Phil O'Connor]

There is so much in this thread but I am late to the party. Yet I feel I must add my 2 cents based on 30 years of pondering various Gloranthan mysteries, in particular Y/elmal/io:

 

When Elmal first came out 26 or so years ago, Greg explained it to me over various phone and convention conversations, and it still makes sense even with Jeff's recent information on the subject. 

Greg said (and I paraphrase badly) that Yelm disintegrated when he was killed with Death, into seven parts. Every god has seven parts btw, even mortals do. One of those parts was his illuminated part, the act of dying illuminated Yelm (at least in the divine sense) and this illuminated part was called different names, Bijiff was an early one. Another name was Rashoran. (I won't go into this entity much suffice to say it is key to understanding 3rd age Yelmalio). 

 

Each part of Yelm was worshipped by the survivors of the lesser then great darkness, each people brought their own prejudices and needs to the worship of these parts of Yelm and gave them different names, I won't go into them here since it would be a long list. 

What Greg wanted to reconcile was the fact that when Yelm returned to the sky (Lightbringers), he had to have a new place in the world that Orlanth created rather than the old world that was destroyed, in the same way that Yelm had a place for Orlanth as the Rebel on the Godswall. Elmal was the way that the storm tribe worshipped Yelm, or the part of him that became friends with Orlanth in hell during the Lightbringer's Quest. Elmal was the way the the dawn Orlanthi placed the sun in their cosmology. Of course Elmal is not Yelm, he is a part of Yelm, more specifically the part of him that is associated with the Light of Yelm, the Little Sun,  Lightfore, The Young God, Antirius, Yelmalio to the Dara Happans (Broken Council). 

 

For many centuries Elmal and Yelmalio co existed, like the other part of Yelm co-existed, without coming into contact until the Lunars came along. Lunar hero questing during their struggles to become an empire affected many myths and cults. In particular their struggles against the Orlanthi tribes of Saird and later Sartar took on a magical aspect, as everyone knows the primary avenue of attack of the Lunar empire is the hero plane, as the God Learners and the Bright Empire before them. 

What better way to weaken the Orlanthi of Dragon Pass than to undermine or destroy the cult of Elmal (who guards the stead during the Lightbringer's Quest), who was worshipped in Saird by the horse nomads before the dawn and later transposed to Hendrikiland by the Orlanthi tribes who refused to follow Lokamayadon, then brought to Dragon Pass during the repopulation. 

The King of Dragon Pass description of the Elmal Guard's the Stead and Chalana Heals the Scars quests gives it away, in terms of Elmal's origins and what may have happened in the third age when Monrogh quested to find Yelmalio. 

I consider those quests canon because they came from Greg in collaboration with David Dunham, and that game did more to solidify the inner workings of Glorantha for me than years of supplements and source materials. I am a hand's on learner, I understand by doing. Six Ages and KoDP all made it fit together for me and with the support of other materials and cryptic conversations with Greg I feel I "get it" as far as Elmal is concerned, as much as any one can possible understand the mysteries that Greg consciously built in this world of his. 

 

Sorry, I forgot to get to the punchline. As someone else already stated in this thread, I also believe that Monrogh failed his quest, at least partially. He was fooled by the Empty Emperor, the Teller of Lies, and Elmal was revealed to him as Yelmalio. This trick was performed once before, when Chalana cured Yelmalio's blindness and he became Elmal. The fact that this "revelation" occurred a few years before the Lunar invasion of Sartar is not a coincidence in my opinion, there are few unintentional coincidences in Greg's Glorantha 😉 

Edited June 16, 2022 by Phil O'Connor

[radmonger]

On 6/16/2022 at 10:14 PM, Phil O'Connor said:

Of course Elmal is not Yelm, he is a part of Yelm, more specifically the part of him that is associated with the Light of Yelm, the Little Sun,  Lightfore, The Young God, Antirius, Yelmalio to the Dara Happans (Broken Council). 

My personal take is that is precisely the point of theological doctrine the Elmali are/were wrong about. There is only time any Solar deity was anything approaching loyal to Orlanth, or at least recognising him as in charge. And that's on the back end of the Lightbringer's quest, the return from hell. The part of Yelm involved there was _not_ Lightfore/AntiriusYelmalio, who was still in the surface world, but the Emperor/Murharzarm. And the acknowledgement of Orlanth's role was a temporary arrangement that soon came to a natural and inevitable end.

For an Elmali who stays in the role of Yelm the Youth, deferring to his elders, this fine theological point makes no practical difference. But any time an Elmali takes over a rulership position, or marries an Ernaldan, history shows they continuously start sprouting fire powers, giving orders and deferring to distant relatives who can prove superior lineage.

Which is why the _cult_ makes not doing so strict doctrine, forbids such magic. Few cultures have taboos against the impossible; a law implies the possibility of that law being broken.

Monrogh's quest was not a failure, but a sideways move. It is not that he showed Elmal was Yelmalio; if that were so, people would have kept on using the old name[1]. It was that Elmal was the wrong name to be worshipping Yelmalio under. Orlanthis with fire-aspected souls _should_ worship Yelmalio, because doing so has less of a tendency to end badly.

By doing so, they bercome resilient to soveriengty claims by the hiers to the Darra Happan Empire. And they can rule land, take wives, and generally live full adult lives. 

And now their inability to use fire is mythically justified, not a rule they have to spend time and effort enforcing.

[1] relevant: https://www.quora.com/What-are-the-planet-names-in-Greek

 

Edited June 18, 2022 by radmonger

[Darius West]

On 1/1/2019 at 8:42 PM, Steve said:

I don't recall Jeff saying in this thread that "Yelm is the sun god of the Orlanth pantheon". Some Orlanthi calling the sun disk "Yelm" doesn't make that so. I don't see a retcon here, I see a useful clarification and more details.

 

There are places where people never see the Sun such as Far Point where it rains continuously due to the Skyfall Lake weather system (?).  There it is Elmal who is the Sun, who is witnessed as the Light in the Hills.

Edited June 18, 2022 by Darius West