DnD Feats, GURPS Advantages, HERO Talents?

[jkeown]

Any interest in these? The conversion bug "hangs on me like a new wife about her husband, hardly to be shook off..."

Shakespeare aside, I think I'll do this anyway, and hope for a positive response

[Solinor]

I will help.

[frogspawner]

Absolutely. I'd like to see your BRP-ized DnD Feats, particularly.

I use 'em, but I'm not completely happy with my conversions.

[Harshax]

So far, I've not been convinced that they really add anything. I do like to peruse various attempts though. Maybe someday, I will see a writeup that really appeals to me. To date, my biggest beef with porting these systems to brp is that they're too often a simple cut and paste, with straight math conversions; +4 becomes +20%; and little thought to how they integrate with the character creation, developement, or mechanics.

For example, many feats grant bonuses to things anyone can do, eg: better grapple, parry, or trips. In BRP, characters get better from doing the action, and continuous experience checks reflect this. So why a feat? To date, the only explanation I can come up with is that some characters have an imperceptible talent for a skill or technique.

BRP Zen masters might call that imperceptible talent Step 6 in character design, and be done with it. I myself came up with a pretty unique approach: After calculating skill category modifiers, a player may rearrange 5 percentile in any fashion they choose.

I've toyed with applying this to entire skill categories, and with specific skills within those categories, depending on how granular I wanted to be. The effect is the same, characters gain another dimension that is not strictly the stats and math on paper. eg. "I don't get it, he's dumb as a post, but he has an amazing recall for facts."

Lastly, brp already has Super Powers, which can handle most any other feat that isn't strictly skill related. You're only task as GM is to decide what limit to place on supernatural abilities, and how many points a character starts off with. For example, you might let players spend up to X number of POW for a pool of points to be spent on Super Powers, and limit those purchases to super senses, resistance, armor, but deny them blatantly supernatural powers like energy attacks.

Good luck though. Looking forward to see what you come up with.

[EDIT: If you come up with a new approach to looking at the existing rules, I'd be more interested than a completely new system that I have to evaluate against the RAW]

Edited January 28, 2009 by Harshax

[Harshax]

I would also like to add that feats which don't fall into the supernatural category are really hard to explain in a level-less system.

What is mathematically different between a character who has taken "Weapon Focus", and the character who put an extra 5% into Sword? Nothing. So why the feat? More importantly, why is it important to have rules to explain the difference in how that 5% was added to Sword? One player can say his character studied under many masters, another can say his character has a natural talent for Sword. Unless there are more rules that open up new opportunities, exclusive to characters with that feat, there is no reason to add that subsystem to brp.

In D&D this makes perfect sense because, stats aside, every 2nd level fighter looks exactly the same, except for how they spend their feats. GURPS and HERO are no different. You have X number of points to spend in Y number of ways. Spending points on ads gives you specific bonus to a narrow set of circumstances, which would otherwise be too costly to purchase in the standard way. D&D is just GURPS with prepurchased packages (classes).

So now I'm even more convinced that what I'd really like to see, is someone take non-skill related ads of various systems, and see how they would create them in brp without adding a new subsystem. I think this is very possible, if it does not exist already. (the aforementioned Super Powers)

Edited January 28, 2009 by Harshax

[Harshax]

Just to prove I'm not trying to poo-poo anyone's enthusiasm, here are three D&D feats converted to BRP, using Super Power rules.

The number after the entry is the cost. The text at the end, is the Super Power, its level, and any adjustments based on limiting those powers.

Dodge (1) A chosen attacker suffers -10% to all attacks against you. (Defense 2, Affects only one opponent -1)

Toughness (3) Increase HP by +3 (Extra Hit Points 3)

Exta Energy (1) +10 Power Points (Extra Energy 1)

Rapid Shot (5) One extra missile attack, both at -10% (Super Speed 20, Affects missile attacks only -10, All missile attacks suffer penalty -5)

[skarl]

I would like to see the finished Examining the Beasts of Fantasy myself. I agree with Harshax on the Feats, etc, BRP can already simulate many of them. I believe that the idea behind games like BRP are to keep them simple.

I am here instead of there for a reason: I like an easy to run and understand game that isn't complicated but is diverse.

[frogspawner]

So far, I've not been convinced that they really add anything. ... So why a feat?

My reasons are campaign origin and player preference. As an ex-DnD campaign (though that was a long time ago now), mine has professions rather like classes - and the players prefer it that way (some being quite down on the old RQ jack-of-all-trades approach, where everyone can do anything, including magic). So I give specialist Fighter-types Martial Arts, and gain chosen Feats at certain %s of that - for abilities which are special and fun but non-magical.

What is mathematically different between a character who has taken "Weapon Focus", and the character who put an extra 5% into Sword? Nothing.

I think I translated that one to "+1 damage". Phew!

[vagabond]

Hey all,

BRP had "feats" long before D&D3. The RQ supplement Land of the Ninja

had Ki Powers. Adding "feats" to BRP is fairly simple. Look at MRQ's Legendary

Abilities as well.

As for a classlike system, WFRP uses "Professions" to narrow down skill sets

and such, with the possibility that once you reach a point, you can progress

to a different professions, kind of like D&D3's Prestige Classes. I could see

a similar system for BRP working quite well.

-V

Edited January 28, 2009 by vagabond

[Harshax]

... I give specialist Fighter-types Martial Arts, and gain chosen Feats at certain %s of that - for abilities which are special and fun but non-magical.

That's perfect. In your game world, there are skills exclusive to professions, that are not normally accessible to others. This could totally justifies a feat subsystem.

It has precedence too. In RQ3, a true mage or shaman had a maximum weapon skill rank. (DEX x3% I think) The assumption being that their magical studies precluded gaining any serious competence in DEX based skills. A feat or talent that let's a character break that rule would be something very special indead.

Also, weren't there skills in RQ2 that were only available to some cults? Like garrote for the krarsht cultists? Just like real life, game worlds can be full of secret societies, brotherhoods, or fighting orders who offer the benefit of specialized skill training to their members.

I think I translated that one to "+1 damage". Phew!

I could do that too:

Weapon Focus (5) +5% hit and +1 damage with specific weapon [unarmed Combat 20, reduced cost by 75% because it does not act as armor, does not reduce enemy's to hit and provides +1 damage not +2]

[jkeown]

...and this is why I asked... I was making notes the other day, thinking aloud at the girlfriend and generally annoying her. (She's a strict Narrativist and does not care for these "rule" thingies I enjoy so much...)

I came to the same conclusion that "Skill Adds" feats mean nothing in BRP. They must relate the character to the World, not the Rules.

(that's very profound, considering the mood I'm in...)

[frogspawner]

That's perfect. In your game world, there are skills exclusive to professions, that are not normally accessible to others. This could totally justifies a feat subsystem.

It has precedence too. In RQ3, a true mage or shaman had a maximum weapon skill rank.

Glad you think so. And you're right - this use of Martial Arts differentiates the 'serious competence' of the true Warrior from mere 'talented amateurs' like Shamans/Priests, no matter what weapon skill they reach (I hadn't thought of that). An arbitrary class-like limitation removed - hurrah!

BRP had "feats" long before D&D3. The RQ supplement Land of the Ninja had Ki Powers.

Yes! I'm in the clear! Pardon me if I stick to versions that aren't called "Powers", or use POW, though - for political reasons.

[jkeown]

I would like to see the finished Examining the Beasts of Fantasy myself. I agree with Harshax on the Feats, etc, BRP can already simulate many of them. I believe that the idea behind games like BRP are to keep them simple.

I am here instead of there for a reason: I like an easy to run and understand game that isn't complicated but is diverse.

Did you get this morning's v35 update? I expanded it slightly.

[Harshax]

BRP had "feats" long before D&D3. The RQ supplement Land of the Ninja

had Ki Powers. Adding "feats" to BRP is fairly simple. Look at MRQ's Legendary

Abilities as well.

Technically, Ki Skills were not feats, and they were available to anyone and for any skill that exceeded 100%. It's an awesome mechanic for heroic play, but it needs a little translation, as the effects of some of the Ki abilities are particular to RQ3 and its use of the option combat rules (SR) found in BRP.

From what I've seem, MRQ Legendary Abilities fall into the same pitfalls as other cut & paste/multiply bonus by 5 copycat attempts.

[fmitchell]

Technically, Ki Skills were not feats, and they were available to anyone and for any skill that exceeded 100%. It's an awesome mechanic for heroic play, but it needs a little translation, as the effects of some of the Ki abilities are particular to RQ3 and its use of the option combat rules (SR) found in BRP.

From what I've seem, MRQ Legendary Abilities fall into the same pitfalls as other cut & paste/multiply bonus by 5 copycat attempts.

I think a better approach would resemble "Skill Challenges" from the d20 game Iron Heroes: a penalty to your skill roll to pull off some feat. The penalty might be anything from -20% to a Difficult (half-skill) or Very Difficult (quarter-skill) roll. In some cases, you might need a Special or Critical success to pull your manoeuvre; a lesser level of success might mean the manoevre wasn't a complete loss, but it would have worked better if you didn't try to get fancy. Thus, only characters with high skill ratings, generally over 100%, can pull them off with any regularity.

GURPS also has a mechanic for special manoeuvres, which if I remember correctly are an additional skill based of another skill at a penalty. You could also adopt the "Martial Arts" approach, of a normal attack that falls under the feat's skill percentile has that special effect.

[Tywyll]

From what I've seem, MRQ Legendary Abilities fall into the same pitfalls as other cut & paste/multiply bonus by 5 copycat attempts.

I would suggest rereading the Legendary ABilities. I can only think of a tiny handfull that add bonuses to rolls. The vast majority of them go beyond what a skill can do to provide new and interesting abilities for characters. Of the 18 in the basic rules book, only 4 add to the character's rolls, and in all cases that is not all they do (in fact it is a minor aspect of their overall ability).

Same thing with Gurps and Hero (heck many of the feats that exist beyond the basic 3.X rulebooks)... most of the ads and disads are not simply "bonuses" to a small set of abilities. They are new capabilities that go beyond what skill and attribute rolls represent, or methods of altering abilities that one possesses as a virtue of class or skill.

Superpowers, as presented in BRP, while certainly a fairly decent starting ground, is woefully inadequate for representing such abilities. Namely because there is no supported system for using them alongside non-super characters, or gaining them in play. If the power system were a more robust, effect driven system, like HERO then I'd say yeah, you could, but right now there is not enough meat on it for that.

(this isn't to say that the super power system isn't perfectly good for what it is intended mind you).

So, if someone wanted to start kicking ideas around, I'd love to contribute. I'd like to see BRP benefit from an integrated Adv/Dis system, as well as something like LA or Ki Abilities coming back (though I think that represents something very different from 'feats' or Adv/Dis, more like 15th+ level abilities in dnd).

[Nightshade]

I think its easy to forget that such things include a couple different things: big chunky skills of the have-it-or-don't category (which tend to be less useful and necessary in a BRP styles system) and things that are, from lack of a better term, binary attributes; ambidexterity, eidetic memory, and so on. You also can get some value out of ones that are essentially specialized attributes; representing a character who's fast but not agile, or has a high resistance to poison but is not otherwise tough.

[rust]

While we do not use the typical "physical" D&D feats, we are experimenting

with a number of "social" advantages in our system.

One example is the Influence system from the Babylon 5 RPG, which enables

characters to gain favours or resources from groups or organizations they

have Influence in, in our campaign depending on the strength of the Influen-

ce, the group the character has the Influence in, and the distance from his

home world.

So a trader from Enki II with a good reputation and good contacts can quite

easily get support from traders on nearby Kinsun, but less so on distant Ter-

ra. A famous scientist from Enki II might easily convince fellow scientists on

far away Shoona to do him a favour, but the bureaucrats on neighbouring

Horpa would be likely to ignore his request.

Influence is based upon a character's initial Status on his homeworld, and ad-

ditional Influence points (each worth 5 %) are awarded (or subtracted) de-

pending on the character's actions during the campaign.

Other examples we experiment with are Allies, Contacts, Patrons and thelike,

in the way they are used in, for example, the GURPS system.

[vagabond]

I would also submit that becoming an Agent/Champion of Law/Chaos/Balance

(or reaching Apotheosis) in Stormbringer/Elric! also granted new "feats" -

special abilities that went beyond simple percentile adds.

-V

[jkeown]

Influence is based upon a character's initial Status on his homeworld, and ad-

ditional Influence points (each worth 5 %) are awarded (or subtracted) de-

pending on the character's actions during the campaign.

Oh... I like this. "Looted!" as we say over on The Waaagh.

Other examples we experiment with are Allies, Contacts, Patrons and thelike,

in the way they are used in, for example, the GURPS system.

I've also been looking into this. Do you think an Ally or Contact would be built equivalent to a Character, and the PC in question spends experience checks based on events in the game to increase that ally's Percentile?

Initially, say:

Nyehoon Findley (Enchanter) 15%

The percentage is the chance of a favorable action on the part of the NPC. Will he loan you a sword, help tame a Southern Imperial Wyvern or distract the gaurd? Roll and get his reaction.

After a few games, things have gone well between you and the good-natured, if greedy, wizard and increase him to 25%. A bad experience occurs (he almost gets eaten by a Bony Jaws while on a mission with you) and you lose 1D6%. Now he's down to 21% and you try to think of ways to make him happy again. You target him with a heat-seeking redhead and hope for the best...

This needs some rules written around it. Perhaps the Generic NPCs in the back of BRP provide some guidelines on who and what can become an Ally? Less work for me, let me tell ya.

[rust]

Do you think an Ally or Contact would be built equivalent to a Character, and the PC in question spends experience checks based on events in the game to increase that ally's Percentile?

The Allies and Contacts in our campaign are indeed characters in their own

right, although I only write down the informations needed to play them as my

NPCs (mainly their background and motivations, and what kind of information

etc. they can provide to the character), and add additional informations only

as necessary.

We currently treat the Ally or Contact percentile as a modifier for social skills

like Diplomacy or Persuade to increase the character's chance of success in

using those skills with the Ally or Contact, with the restriction that a Contact

will not take a personal risk to help a character, while an Ally may be willing

to do so.

At the moment we do not use experience checks for these percentiles, they

rise and fall according to the GMs (= my) perception of the NPC's most likely

reaction to the actions of the character and the treatment by the character.

In my opinion this is easier to handle, because more than a few of the NPCs

have motivations unknown to the characters, and try to use the characters

for their own purposes, too.

An experience check by the players could give away such hidden motives by

making the success of a check suspiciously easy or difficult, I think.

[Skunkape]

Just to prove I'm not trying to poo-poo anyone's enthusiasm, here are three D&D feats converted to BRP, using Super Power rules.

The number after the entry is the cost. The text at the end, is the Super Power, its level, and any adjustments based on limiting those powers.

Dodge (1) A chosen attacker suffers -10% to all attacks against you. (Defense 2, Affects only one opponent -1)

Toughness (3) Increase HP by +3 (Extra Hit Points 3)

Exta Energy (1) +10 Power Points (Extra Energy 1)

Rapid Shot (5) One extra missile attack, both at -10% (Super Speed 20, Affects missile attacks only -10, All missile attacks suffer penalty -5)

I haven't finished reading the entire thread, but I wanted to comment on your thoughts. I agree that the feats in DnD like Weapon Focus really don't need to be translated, but I like the idea of allowing players to choose some of the feats from DnD, for instance, Dodge, while anyone can dodge an attack in BRP, the actual mechanic of dodge, plus to AC vs 1 opponent isn't part of the game.

By the way, I think your write up of is spot on.

Course, I want to have these abilities as options that characters can add after the players have been playing them, not when first created.

[PK Games]

Ive been having similar feelings and problems with my Fading Suns and Dragon Star conversion games. Since both games are D20 and level systems, its hard to judge how and when a character is allowed to certain class abilities and feats.

I decided at first to take a MRG-like approach with Heroic Abilities. But really, since BRP doesnt really use a XP system I find that to be too arbitrary and never really feel players are willing to sacrifice the notion of Hero Points on small flavor advantages or feats.

[Harshax]

By the way, I think your write up of is spot on.

Course, I want to have these abilities as options that characters can add after the players have been playing them, not when first created.

Thanks.

Take a look at the mechanics for increasing Super Powers. Essentially, whenever your character succeeds at a POW gain roll, you can spend the points on more Powers instead of increasing the POW Stat.

[Nightshade]

I would also submit that becoming an Agent/Champion of Law/Chaos/Balance

(or reaching Apotheosis) in Stormbringer/Elric! also granted new "feats" -

special abilities that went beyond simple percentile adds.

-V

Same with most versions of rune lordship as far as that goes.