Is Ganesatarus / GanEstoro Chaotic?

[Nevermet]

Basically, what the subject says: Is GanEstoro, the Enemy God that appears in the Entekosiad, also known as Ganesatarus in Carmanian mythology, chaotic?

I've read the Entekosiad and the Guide to Glorantha, and I'm not completely sure.  I can imagine 2 answers:

 

1. GanEstoro / Ganesatarus is chaotic.  He embodies the Lie and evil, not just darkness.  He is the opposite and sworn enemy of his brother, Idovanus.  Given that Carmanian religion isn't about balancing the light and dark as much as the light defeating the dark, it makes sense that Ganesatarus is a truly hostile force to reality, and is therefore chaotic.
    
2. GanEstoro / Ganesatarus is not chaotic.  He is not referred to as chaotic in either GTG or Entekosiad, "merely" that he is associated with evil, darkness,  deception, and matter.  His opposition to Idovanus may have brought chaos into the world, but that's not the same thing as being chaotic.  Also, the fact that Idovanus the Light and the Law is able to pardon and redeem Ganesatarus (GTG p. 725) suggests he is not chaotic.

 

I'm fully aware that YGMV, but I wanted to see if either of these held more water, or was more the accepted viewpoint at the moment.  Thanks!

Edited July 22, 2019 by Nevermet

[Joerg]

"Chaotic" doesn't have the same absolute condemnation in Peloria as it has in the Theyalan cultures.

Non-conformist (outside of well-defined roles) is a much harsher verdict in Peloria than just Chaotic. Thus Shargash, a truly bad entity and as borderline chaotic as Zorak Zoran (which may or may not be a different entity) but who has an assigned role as such is an acceptable entity, while Orlanth is not.

The Dara Happans and Pelorians either don't mind or don't like the observation that their ruling deity promoted Chaos by excluding all those who defy that absolute authority.

I used to regard Ganesatarus as the acknowledged worshiped version of Vogmaradan, with Idovanus or Yelm as unacknowledged version of Vogmaradan.

 

[JonL]

I would figure Disorder and Darkness, but not Chaos per se. 

[Nevermet]

41 minutes ago, Joerg said:

"Chaotic" doesn't have the same absolute condemnation in Peloria as it has in the Theyalan cultures.

Non-conformist (outside of well-defined roles) is a much harsher verdict in Peloria than just Chaotic. Thus Shargash, a truly bad entity and as borderline chaotic as Zorak Zoran (which may or may not be a different entity) but who has an assigned role as such is an acceptable entity, while Orlanth is not.

The Dara Happans and Pelorians either don't mind or don't like the observation that their ruling deity promoted Chaos by excluding all those who defy that absolute authority.

I used to regard Ganesatarus as the acknowledged worshiped version of Vogmaradan, with Idovanus or Yelm as unacknowledged version of Vogmaradan.

 

That would explain the similarity between the name Estaro and and Turo - The God who Gives and Takes, vs the God of Power.

[Nevermet]

2 minutes ago, JonL said:

I would figure Disorder and Darkness, but not Chaos per se. 

Yeah, reading the Entekosiad, I'm not 100% sure of any of the named characters being truly chaos beings, until you get down to the stories about Bisos.  Mind you, there are definitely characters and events that make things worse, but they really don't seem to have as elaborated a notion of reality-destroying chaos as, say, the Orlanthi or the Praxians.

 

That and death seemingly always existing whether or not people realized it, but that's a different thread.

[Sir_Godspeed]

Yeah, we've talked before about how Chaos as a concept doesn't really seem to pop up in Pelorian, including Pelandan sources. As Joerg mentioned, at least in a Dara Happan sense, it's insubordination that is the original sin. For the Pelandan Green Age myths explored in the Entekosiad, it's arguably authoritarianism/patriarchy.

Ultimately, this does make it hard to "translate" Pelorian associations to the Theyalan ones, which as far as I understand, are the ones that are most recognizeable to RL-readers.

[Akhôrahil]

And he's considered a legitimate part of the world (just a bad one), right? That typically excludes chaos.  

[Sir_Godspeed]

4 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

And he's considered a legitimate part of the world (just a bad one), right? That typically excludes chaos.  

At least in Carmanianism, iirc.

[Akhôrahil]

5 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Yeah, we've talked before about how Chaos as a concept doesn't really seem to pop up in Pelorian, including Pelandan sources. As Joerg mentioned, at least in a Dara Happan sense, it's insubordination that is the original sin. 

I think we have a really skewed view of Chaos from having our primary cultures be Orlanthi and Praxian, probably the two most Chaos-hating cultures. These are really the exceptions.

Dara Happans don't primarily talk about Chaos, but about disorder and the breaking of proper hierarchies. To the Westerners, the distinction is between them and Krjalki, a category that includes far more than just chaos. In the East, demons aren't primarily characterized by being Chaotics, but by being counter-enlightened and in fundamental error.