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Joerg last won the day on March 22

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About Joerg

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    Gloranthan studies
  • Birthday 01/03/1965

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    Former president of Deutsche RuneQuest-Gesellschaft aka Chaos Society, Glorantha know-it-all (almost), some mentions in Glorantha publications
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    Occasional HQG, RQ and Cthulhu
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    Into rpgs since1984, into world building since the 70ies, into RQ since 1989, active on RQ-Daily and successors since 1993
  1. Sure - Umath uses the harp of harmony in battle against the Predark, and emerges victoriously. Shargash fielding drummers will be a way to instill fear in normal deities, and a wall of sound and thunder would have been a real weapon. (Sounds a lot like a conflict simulated in Heroquest rather than gritty realism and RuneQuest... but this is the Godtime, where gritty realism was not part of the reality.) What happens is that Shargash fields a previously well proven force against the invader, and the force is washed aside without even a struggle. Heortling Mythologies describes the Humakti legion along similar lines. Godtime combat probably has a lot more choreography and flashy moves than weapons hitting body parts.
  2. Husband for Biselenslib. As a sex deity, maybe tantric in nature. There is nothing about love in any but the physical sense about him - neither paternal care for his daughters, nor any particular attachment to his wives other than doing his matrimonial duty once a year. Doing that well, given the city's name, but still just doing his duty, I don't think he is bringing flowers, or offers a snuggle afterwards. I still think that Southpath equals underworld sky origin. The Storm Age planets did not fall out of the sky into the Underworld, but they rose into the visible sky from the Underworld. Big difference. If you say Tolat is not Shargash, then he is not a son of Yelm (unlike Shargash, whose hell qualities we agree upon, as well as his similarities to Zorak Zoran). The western genealogy myths as per Xeotam have him and Annilla as twin children of (Ralian?) Ehilm and Nakala. This translates as sky and underworld, or in other words underworld sky, the part of the sky sphere that continues below the horizon, parts of which occasionally dip above the horizon.Fort Artia is a daughter of the sun? The Twin Stars are? Mastakos and/or Uleria are? So much for the statement "all planets", clearly false. Some planets are. The original eight are. I contest the notion that the red planet that rose from Umath's Crater was the same that went there to avenge the destruction of the northern Pillar (god). The Red Planet almost has a celestial size for itself - smaller than the low-hanging Red Moon, but significantly larger than any other planet, or star. Veldara or Vendara may be a child of the Sun-in-Hell. Pelandan and Doraddi myths agree on this, the Xeotam lineage doesn't contradict it (because it doesn't give a "date" of birth). Why would peoples in between differ? The same applies to Vorthan - black skinned, third red eye on his brow. I stand on the record that ZZ was the prototype uzko - burnt troll. (See the Three Curious Spirits story in Troll Pak. One might even argue that Argan Argar and the siblings XU and ZZ are sky entities, born from their exposure to Aether. Underworld sky entities. AA has the additional sky origin through his mother, Xentha, who might be a mother of all underworld stellar beings.) But at the same time, he is not a child of Kyger Litor, not even a wayward one. Shadzoring shares the "zor" element of Zorak Zoran. History of the Heortling Peoples names Zolan Zubar as the warlord deity of the First Council, not Zorak Zoran. The Heortlings note the similarity of the two, and name them siblings. It is only later that Zolan Zubar's cult gets subsumed by Zorak Zoran's. The spirit remains in Kolat relations. So, Tolat. Fire powers? Maybe his blade. Anything else? Not that we know of. Light powers? Brighter than the night sky. Visible through the lightest of clouds. Death powers? A sword. War god. And Death as an attribute is well attested even for the Marazi amazons. Death is an underworld power carried into the Surface World. Holding out for 10 years after the rebellion was crushed, and the pretender removed. Sure. Noone has ever accused Lunar sources of objectivity. All of this only states that Dara Happan emperors' offspring can rebel against an emperor they have issues with. Enter Shargash in the Doom Constellation, or in Jar-eel's rendering of the Pelorian myths. Even the Dara Happans call him unruly. It is one more point of evidence of Alkothi rebelling against a rightful emperor. p.11 of the pdf clearly states that Shargash went to meet Nestentos: One of the most slapstick moments delivered by Plentonius. It gets demeaning in less slapstick ways in this Flood myth: Then Alkoth gets drowned. It survives as part of the Underworld.
  3. My guess would be Orlanth's Ring with 7 days visible in the sky and 7 elsewhere. Combined with Tolat we get one in four weeks (starting) with both parties visible, one (starting) with none of them visible, and one each with only one of them visible, twice a season. In Sacred Time, Tolat remains in the Underworld, and Orlanth's Ring retraces the Lightbringers' Quest. Unless Artia has some mysterious draconic connections, I don't see how the Kralori would rely on one of the unreformed Hsunchen folk rather than their more elegant reformed dragon hsunchen for time-keeping. There has to be some other, pre-dawn cycle they base their week upon - after all their calendar, too, has survived since before the Dawn (discussed in one of the Jonstown Compendium entries of Chaosium's RQ Companion). But then, continuity through the Greater Darkness, especially in terms of day cycles (rotations of the Sky Dome, measurable after Zator leaving through the Storm Gate and opening the way for the stars) often are the result of amnesia about the worst periods rather than true continuity. Speaking of Bats, the Pujaleg are the fourth major group worshipping Tolat from their own motivations (as opposed to enforced Tolat worship among the Outrigger peoples). They are present both in Laskal, next to the former Artmali lands of Fonrit, and in Fethlon next to the once Zaranistangi-dominated (and salvaged) Teshnos. Coincidence, or fellow travelers? Depends on what sources you choose to believe. The Zaranistangi could have crossed the Wastes without making a continuous tour. Sea-born travel could have carried emissaries along the swampy south shores of the continents. I stated in another thread that the Nysalorean missionaries wouldn't have entered Genert's Wastes since not even the Beast Riders used to do so. The Alkothi would have insisted on keeping the interpretation rights of the Red Planet in the Project. Vehemently so. Zaranistangi would have been tapped (not in the sorcery sense) for their migration method, Emilla's powers. The Guide begs to differ, especially during the worst of the Greater Darkness, but well up to the Battle of Argentium Thri'ile, which made Eusibus accept Khordavu as emperor. Sources: Guide p.695, Box Characteristics of the Great Darkness: Corroborated in History of the Heortling Peoples pp.15ff, which blames many of the killings of Theyalan missionaries and even forward colonies in Saird and Terarir on the Shadzorings of the Green City. If the Underworld demons named Shadzorings could travel that far from their stronghold even after the Dawn, their reach was quite impressive. But then, the Shadzorings might have been another Antigod manifestation like the Andins, Gorgers, or Huan-To. Especially interesting if Churanpur maps onto Trowjang, making the Marazi the human-shaped survivors of the Churanpur monsters, much like the Alkothi Shadzorings apparently took on human shapes after Eusibus' surrendering to Khordavu. The Enclosures are the ritual entries to Shargash's portions of the Underworld. The question is whether the Zaranistangi would have used such. The accusation of their human sacrifices every 16th day in Slontos might corroborate such an Underworld connection, but then they may have been slander by the Slontan God Learners, or misunderstood heroquesting. Tolat's cognate Vorthan is black and red - his description fits the depiction of Arkat in Dan Barker's piece on the battles in Dorastor. Jagrekriand turns black in order to defeat Umath's Red God-optimized magics. Sorry, I don't see any chance for Tolat to display blue as a color. Where did he get his jade armring? The name Alkor for the Yelmson protector of the city from the Genertela Box is linguistically related to Alk, the Green Goddess of earliest Pelanda, in the Entekosiad. Is this a reference to the Bridling of Kargzant, ending the Sun Swirl? Or do you mean the strands of Arachne Solara's web that became more and more visible during the Sunstop while Yelm's immobility violated the Compromise? Check out the Praxian Tradition thread about the Sable phratries and their origin not as Waha khanship but through the Twinstars ancestor(s).
  4. I was a bit astonished to find Annilla as the goddess of rice for the flood plains of Mellon in central Melib. She is important to any folk living under the influence of the tides, whether it is tidal flats between the Rightarm and Leftarm isles of Kethaela, the bay of Maslo or the river estuary of the Teshno river which sees salty sea water carried deep into the land at high tides, and low tides with potable water that can be used for the rice paddies after the tides ran out. The Zaranistangi appear as allies of the no longer innocent Artmali, possibly only after the death of Artmal. King Durpal appears to fall between Artmal and Jakartu. This might actually a moment of triumph for Bertalor, who named the solid (and buoyant) form of Sea Metal Lo-Metal. If the sword was a gift from the Promalti of Balumbasta's home region in the Enmal Mountains, we can make the God Learner connection between Balumbasta and Lodril/Lodik/whichever other name the Jrusteli gave to the tainted Srvuali of Fire within Earth, and have one useful connection between Balumbasta and the Red Planet. The only offspring of the Triolini or Manthi branch of the sea entities. Drospoli spews forth lots of creatures that fill that description. And anyway, Styx, sort of the mother of Zaramaka, is a hell creature, so one may well say that all water entities are direct descendants of Hell. The prophesy on p.430 in the Guide makes this a major theme for the Hero Wars. Interesting - the Fall of the Red Moon might bring back the Blue one, possibly in addition to a white one. Easy - Sramak's River feeds all the waters in the world, whether Lorion's River in the Sky, Styx in the Underworld, or the Seas and Oceans in the Middle World. If microorganisms like Pseudomonas aeruginosa can swim against the arc of a water hose in the garden, there should be watery entities able to act as messengers. And then there is Mastakos, a sea entity with the ability to switch places... A relevant side topic, though, since they too are a blue skinned boat people that went about conquering or raiding coastal lands at roughly the same time the Artmali did. Helerite ships are solidified rainclouds rather than the indigo cloud emanations of the Blue Moon. While I was informed that these Storm Age/Flood Age "ships" often were little more than the concept of a floating hull tied to the concept of sails or oars, without reflecting anything like the technologies we find in use after the Dawn. On the other hand, these dream-like vessels surely inspired the ship-builders after the Dawn. The easiest explanation for Helerites is that they were one of the first blue-skinned attackers on Brithos, but were repelled, probably under heavy losses, and then went on to attack in Maniria under the name of Helerings rather than Helerites, where they met the Vingkotlings, and became one of the three great tribes of the Orlanthi. It is unclear whether the Helerings continued to conduct naval raids on others, or whether the struggle against Worcha broke their naval aspirations.
  5. Actually, I didn't find a good transcription for the historical (16th century) author Georg Agricola who produced a 13 volume standard tome on mining, covering all manner of aspects. His books are illustrated with great woodcuts of the various apparati used for the various steps of mining. Links should be available from the wikipedia article.
  6. Fralari sounds to me like a clear reference to Fralar, child of Hykim, ancestor of the carnivorous beasts like Yinkin, Basmol, Hsa, Rathor and Telmor. The Fralari nation might be a veiled pointer to a Basmoli (and ultimately Likiti) origin. I guess that the name translate as something negative but translatable, like "chainer", or "wheel smasher". To date, there are three Southpath wanderers If you count the twinstars as one wanderer with two bodies: Tolat, Artia and the Twinstars. All are some shade of red (the Twinstars possibly only by association with the Red Moon). Both Tolat and Artia are among the four rebels made responsible for the demise of Yelm in Jar-eel's version of the event, in Prince of Sartar. Artia has been called a small moon at times, too. Most telling is the absence of his role in the rebellion that overthrew Murharzarm. Alkoth did take part in the Jannisor rebellion, and held out a 10 year siege before bowing to the Red Emperor again. That could be the phonetically similar Juggernaut. Probably a different entity. Deities and even mortal heroes taking on giant scale appears to be quite common. See e.g. Morden Defends the Camp and his encounter with the Strong Man.
  7. Tolat as a god of love and war - no disagreement. A mix of Uleria and Humakt - vastly misleading. Still, the Amazons have no doubt that they worship the same deity the Zaranistangi of Melib and formerly Teshnos worship. They venerate the same red sword. While we have little evidence of Shargash as a lover, we know that he has his fertile aspects, and the Orlanthi tell lots of myths where various sons of Shargash struggled with Orlanth or some of the Thunder Brothers. (Big difference to Humakt, who has - maybe - one offspring - Arkat.) The Amazons worship him as a better choice than mortal men. Given their claimed ancestry as granddaughters of the sun or daughters of stars, I find it quite unsurprising that they found mortal men wanting. The guide consequently refers to the 8-hours-planet as Mastakos, though it mentions the Dara Happan idea of Uleria. Mastakos is a lot of things, but he is not Uleria. He is a significant portion or heir of Larnste, the only other member of the Celestial Court known not to have been destroyed, so maybe the planet is basically the celestial refuge of the Powers of the Celestial Court. But then Mastakos has an ancestry in the Sea Tribe, and was abducted and adopted by Orlanth during his expedition to the Baths of Nelat. He may have been part of the waters host led into the sky by Lorion, like Heler. This may explain his alliance with the descendants of Lorion and Annilla/Veldara/..., the successful leaders of that invasion. Emilla, the planetary deity of the city of Istval - the center of the Blueskin cults on Melib - is described as a female incarnation of Mastakos rather than Uleria. Ancestress, so there is a certain fertility aspect, but as important as the source of their (beasts') teleportation magics. We find Annilla as the Melib goddess of rice, too - an unexpected fertility aspect of this Underworld and sky goddess. While discussing the Zaranistangi traces in Genertela, I wonder how the period of 16 days for human sacrifice in Imperial Age Slontos maps to any celestial period of their deities, least of all to the Blue Streak (which averages at 4 periods in a fortnight). My point about the Red Planet gods is that Tolat - the war god of the Zaranistangi and Artmali, original bearer of the red sword, attested by various peoples who were conquered - shares lots of attributes with Shargash beyond occupying the Red Planet, like being sibling to the moon. Attributes he doesn't share with Balumbasta, but with what little is known about Vorthan, too. Jagrekriand likely is little more than the Orlanthi name for Shargash since the Bright Empire mapped their myths upon one another. The Marazi weren't conquered by traditional means of war, and basically are a nation of diluted demigoddess daughters of Tolat. And granddaughters, great-grand-daughters, ...
  8. And now something completely unrelated - an essay dating from 2011 which I apparently never posted in a way that google became aware of it. I did adapt the name of the governor of Heortland, though not the title. An Analysis of the origin and nature of the Storm Mountains. Duchamp Collectanea DC:1615.JSq.12-5 Duchamp, Truth/Stasis/Dark 1615 My Liege, King Orengerin of Heortland, and my esteemed colleague, Flindil Lambscraper, Royal Librarian, I humbly submit these results of my research on the mountains our glorious Founder Hendrik made famous in his fight against the minions of Gbaji. This analysis combines research in written accounts, transcripts of oral tradition of the native populace, and reports on field work. May St. Lhankor Mhy, Patron of Sages, bless this document with his Light of Truth, and shrivel those who profane it! Jereginos Steelquill, Senior Teacher at the Aeolian College of Duchamp Geology: The Storm Mountains comprise actually several chains of mountains of different origin. The oldest parts come from the seeds Larnste scattered around Dragon Pass when he met the dragons at their nesting ground, just off the slope of the Spike. They were made of the cold earth of the earliest age of the Earth. The rock from this period is of a light grey with occasional spots and inclusions of darker material, and viewed thoroughly will show small crystallites intergrated with each other. Estimated period of origin is the Earth Age, still before the Green Age. The next oldest rock found here comes from Vestkarthan's invasion to the earth, which rose the Vent and the other volcanoes along the south of the Holy Country. Vestkarthan's children spread into the east as far as the Wens of Corflu, and into the north as far as the Quivin Mountains. Some say that the Three Step Isles in the farther south were raised as mountains in this time. In the centre of this rising stood the Vent in Caladraland, and like the Vent these mountains show obsidian, basalteous rock, and layered ash and lava deposits. These rocks were scorched by the deep fire and generally have a darker colour than the rest. Estimated period of origin is the late Green Age, when this son of Aether invaded Earth. However, most of the mountains were raised in the later Golden Age. When Umath was born and pushed apart Earth and Sky, the Waters invaded the surface of Earth. Raging Sea had separated Genertela from the Spike, and Faralinthor covered large parts of Esrola's land and neighbouring territory. After Umath had chanced upon the lovers and had slain Faralinthor, the waters in this region retreated to what now is Mirrorsea Bay, then hiding-place of Choralinthor. However, the intimate relationship between Esrola and Faralinthor had left its traces on the surface now again in contact with Air: chalky sediments, the ground bones of the children of Molakka, covered wide parts of the land. These sediments formed a white rock, sometimes permeated with darker bands of red, black or green, which Tarban the Plow showed to be remnants of conflicts between various deities in his treatise on the White Cliffs of Heortland (Lylket Knowledge Temple #103.573.A, copied as Duchamp Collectanea DC:878.Lyl:TtP.35-3). The rising of the Storm Mountains occured in two steps. The first was the famous incident when Larnste had left the Spike to oversee Yelm's stewardship of the world, and found it wanting, for a chaos thing had wormed its way into the world and nested there. In his anger, Larnste stamped on it with his foot, which caused the depression known as the Footprint. Even though the thing bit the Greater God of the Celestial Court, its underground lair was smashed and its tunnels collapsed. From the force of the stamping the earth folded up. However, the thing remained, and only by the force of Vestkarthan's spear, found left lying where Vestkarthan had entered the Earth in the huge Obsidian mountain southeast of the tip of the Skyreach Mountains, which later was flattened by Argan Argar and made into the Shadow Plateau, and pierced the thing writhing inside the debris. Vestkarthan had been tricked by Eurmal into his favourite weapon, the mighty spear of deep fire, in a drunken wager, and was trapped therein, unable to escape until returning to his chosen home. Exultantly, Vestkarthan burst forth from his underground home, spewing out molten earth, rocks, and a huge pall of ash and dust. Kolat was angered at this pollution of his realm and summoned Bingista, the Good Wind, who blew this cloud back to where it originated, and covered the slime of chaos. As a result, the forest there was petrified. However, part of the dust still fell on the ground, and is found by miners just above the chalk layers left by Faralinthor. The folds made by the stamp of Larnste now are the two outer chains of mountains, creases of chalky limestone, light grey on the surface, but white in the interior. Sometimes the petrified bones of dragonkind can be found there, buried before this incident, and highly priced by the Inhuman King who is said even to have taught draconic magic in exchange for good specimen of these. Other findings can include giant seashells and even the occasional giant pearl, like the six used for the councillors' thrones in the City of Wonders. The final raising of the Storm Mountains was effected at Orlanth's commands by his half brothers, sons of of Kero Fin and Vestkarthan, in gratitude for the aid Orlanth had given to Quivin, one of their number, against the rage of Vadrus. Orlanth wanted to please his mountain mother by reestablishing her connections towards the Spike, and the mountains reached far into the Raging Sea. The sons of Vestkarthan, always the workers, brought up all the buried rock in praise of their and Orlanth's mother, so that all kinds of rock can be found in this middle, and highest, range of the mountains. However, their handicraft was no mettle against the occasional rage of the storm gods. Once Storm Bull wrestled with the chief of them, and twisted off his head. The twisted remains of his body form Stormwalk Mountain, in the southern part of the range. During the Storm Age and Darkness these peaks were battered by battles, and the debris rolled off to form the foothills. Large boulders dot this region, and treacherously smooth grassy slopes reveal themselves as piles of rubble gliding of the real slope, sometimes causing rockslides if trespassed. Another large amount of these peaks was carried onto the plains when Inora commanded her icy minions to fight the chaos oozing from the hole the imploding Spike had left. Their glaciers carried or pushed down finely ground material which forms the clay hills of the flat plateau. The scraping of the ice tongues still marks the upper valleys, and they retreated only in a series of battles, still discernible by the morraine ridges they left in the landscape. The vast amounts of water melting off the beaten glaciers cut the deep gorges of the five rivers into the plateau, and spread wide fans of muddy soil into Choralinthor's hiding place, still visible when the Blue Streak has plunged downwards. The upper riverbeds sometimes have ore deposits inside their gravel: silvery remains of the love between Esrola and Faralinthor, coppery fragments of the bones of the earth, mixtures of tin and lead from Argan Argar's attempts to conquer these mountains, where he lost several sons, minuscule fragments of crystallized gods' blood, splattered up there in unceasing fights, mostly too small to hold powers except as component for alchemists' potions. In some places deep wells yield pitch and tar, remnants of Murthdryas children covered by shells of Molakka's offspring, used for lighting and building. A few sulfurous and mineral springs give witness of the ongoing fight of Faralinthor's scattered fragments with Vestkarthan and his children who imprisoned the dismembered god. The interior of these mountains has remained largely untouched by the children of Mostal. In the Age of Gbaji once they invaded circular tunnels opening from these mountains, and found them unoccupied, until they were ambushed by either minions of Krarsht from the Footprint or troll guards from the Troll Woods, and were either eaten or forced to flee. The Iron Vrok did not repeat this attempt. For this reason the treasures of the earth supposedly still are there to be found by enterprising miners. The royal silver mines, founded during King Hendrik's Exile among the mountain tribes, give ample proof for this. Further to the north, the Kitori run mines crewed by hordes of worker and food trollkin which literally eat their way into the mountains. Their ore can sometimes be traded from Argan Argar traders, but a considerable part of the yield is used to outfit the Silver Spears, an elite unit of dark troll and trollkin spearmen trained to fight the magical monsters of the Foulblood Woods. The tarnishing powers of Tien require constant replacement of this metal, which has proven its effectivity against some chaotic features. I append copies of the reports of Tarban the Plow on the White Cliffs, DC:878.Lyl:TtP.35-3, Arinstor Yellowbeard the Taxman's evaluation of the silver mines of the Martofsaetan, DC:1607.AYb.7-12, a letter from Mikhil Baron, private Gray Sage from Alda-Chur, on a dating method based on fossiles in and of limestone, archived as DC:L,1614.AC:MB.1-1, an excerpt of an alleged partial copy of Zzabur's Blue Book, a gift to the Duchamp College by King Hendrik the Fourth after his conquest of Refuge, DC:1254.Ref:Zz.22537-1269, an expertise by Scholar Wyrm on some fossils found near the Martof Headwaters before trading them to the Inhuman King, DC:1492.SW:134-5, interviews Korlmarl the Listener led with various inhabitants of the Mountains, DC:1595.KtL:24-13-*22. Not included, since ready to your perusal at the Royal Library, were Agricola's 13 books on the art of mining and the creatures of the Deep, the Flintnail Dialogues by Herendikos of Pavis, "The Junior Alchemists' Guide" by the infamous Delecti of Remakerela, Baranwolf's misguided treatise on metals and crystals, and Stein Meadcalfe's "Metallurgy" quoting an obscure Loskalmi dabbler in metallurgy. The "Annotations to Agricola" by Daran Bonehunter will give valuable cross-indexing to further treatises on this subject.
  9. Myth isn't, as a general rule. Having almost the same text in opposing media does give a strong hint for a great degree of objectiveness, though. Planetary sons of Yelm, to be a little more precise. But the Umath myth gives an exit option for Zator, and an entry option for the otherwise earth-bound sibling of Murharzarm, Buserian. Plentonius' Decapolis list of protector deities in the ReAscent (as a Gloranthan document, not referring to the pdf or print publication of the Stafford Library here) gives at least two names he doesn't repeat in either The Perfect Sky or his interpretations of the Gods Wall. My thinking, too, but one that Peter might classify as post-canonical. But then, the Sunpath planet Chermata (Lokarnos) gets an Underworld origin, too, and he is as light-oriented as a planet can wish to be. I am inclined to make Shargash as we meet him during the Darkness and as lord of the Shadzorings as a merger of a nasty sky god with an even nastier underworld deity, and quite remote from the eight planetary sons or early Alkoth defender one. Shargash is as impure as one can get in the sky after returning from his execution of Umath in the ruins of the White Overseer's camp, more so than Umath or Orlanth ever were. Artia is practically pure and celestial in comparison. Prince of Sartar depicts four rebel gods instrumental in slaying Yelm - Orlanth/Rebellus Terminus, Verithurusa/Sedenya/Shepelkirt, Shargash/Tolat/Jagrekriand, and Artia/Mahaqata/Quatanara. Hmm. Praxians know bronze items as treasure, and have limited access to it. Given the color, I would have associated the planet with copper rather than bronze. Mostali and Pelorians call the metal brass, and it is linked to Turos/Lodril in its Carmanian deposits. I notice a lot of craters in the context of the Copper Plates - Lodril's impact crater (nowadays probably Lake Oronin), Umath's in the Thunder Delta (nowadays flooded/submerged, too), and I seem to recall another impact Crater from the Godtime, all long before the Rufelzan Crater transformed much of Naveria into the Red Moon. Bonus speculation: Could the Red King of the Naveria myth in Entekosiad be related to Shargash or the planet?
  10. I am not really convinced that the name Shargash applies to the original planetary son. We have Alkor in the Genertela Box for the city god of Alkoth, a son of Yelm. The silly display of drums and drummers nearly drowned by Nestentos doesn't rhime with the later war god, either. There is a genealogy of Gloranthan deities somewhere on the web which also places Ralian deities like Ehilm in relation with Yelm. Murharzarm probably is a product of the Wedding Contest which resulted in Dendara (not the entire Entekos, only the chaste aspect) as Yelm's wife, and presumed mother of his legitimate sons (and daughters). If so, his brothers would be as well, includign the original form of Shargash. I am convinced that the Shargash we learn to fear for the period after Yelm's disintegration was formed by a bad merger in the course of the defense against Umath's visit to his brother's court. We get an underworld sky deity involved in the upper sky activities. (All planets on the Southpath have strong underworld connections. The Sunpath leads through the Underworld, too, when all is said and done, and all the current planets and suns rose from the Underworld, except Mastakos/Uleria/Emilla.)
  11. Obscure Red Planet mention in Revealed Mythology p.103 (Celestial Deities of the East): I wonder whether this is an East Isles version. Kralorela was mentioned as being aware of Tolat, although in Kralorela that may be limited to his function as god and husband of the Marazi amazons and not extend to the planetary being. Anyway, another Red Planet deity name for the collection, still refusing Balumbasta. Back to the Artmali and Pamaltelan period Zaranistangi myths. The lexicalic entry among the Pamaltelan deities has the two younger Sky Witches born in Hell (p.61): This makes Veldara an Underworld deity at the very least by conception. The slightly more verbose myth on p.46 states that she had been married to whatever the Pamaltelan name for dead Kendamalar in the Underworld was (my edition has an asterisked Bijiif as place-holder). The Artmal receives the Red Sword myth claims Tolat as his uncle, elsewhere he is explicitely named as the brother of Veldara. (Tolat as a brother of Lorion would have been very very strange...) Later, Artmal's heir Durpal passes the sword on to his ally Zemendarn, king of the Zaranistangi, when Zemendarn saved his life. This might be a flaw for every owner of the Red Sword - if he receives life-saving aid in battle, he has to pass on the sword. For some unexplained reason, the Zaranistangi migrate north to Sechkaul, and establish themselves in Teshnos, next to Genert's Garden. There they proselytize Tolat worship until the ruler of Sechkaul abolishes it in most of his realm, taking away the Red God's protection against Sshorg. (The same Red God who failed so sillily in Dara Happa?) But enough about that sword (Middle Sea Empire adds the Jrusteli impression of how Ordanal "conquered" Melib, opening the sluices for the eastern conquests of the GLs, expanding the Guide info on p.428 slightly). The main worshippers of Tolat (under that name) are the Marazi and the Zaranistangi on the islands before Teshnos, the Pujaleg in Laskal and likely quite a number of Fonritians. In continental Teshnos Tolat appears to have left a lasting impression even outside the Zaranistangi, if the strange cult names in the Heroquest 1st edition Teshnos homeland are an indication (combining Calyz' and Solf's names with Tolat's for weird martial arts cults). I suppose that Tolat is an antigod in Kralorela, Vormain and the Isles. (Shargash's Greater Darkness underworld minions in Alkoth, the Shadzorings, bear a certain similarity to the Andins...)
  12. Heortling Mythologies has the Heler myth about his defeat as a forerunner of Lorion in the sky invasion of the seas on p.64 and Jagrekriand's victory over the water gods as an aside on p.71 in the Niskis vs Venebain myth (I heard elsewhere that Heler being lost to the Seas was the consequence of a defeat against Vadrus or Umath). Later, Tolat became an in-law of Lorion through his Lunar sister Veldara, mother of Artmal. (Possibly twin sister if the Vorthan myth has any bearing on his Pamaltelan myths, although Veldara's sibling is Chermata, who is usually identified as Lokarnos as hell-born child of Black Entekos, aka Enjata Mo, the wife of Cronisper who followed her slain son into the Underworld.) If Tolat was as inimical to Lorian's rise as Jagrekriand (and presumably Shargash) was, then Artmal helping him against Bredjeg might have changed that, for a while. His alliance with the children of Emilla/Mastakos, the Zaranistangi, is another case of his overcoming the dislike for water-related deities, or at least their descendants. I don't think that any version of the Red Planet god was obsessed with the purity of the sky. The reason for his enmity might have been a bitter memory of his Yelmsson persona's defeat against Sshorg/Oslir/Nestentos where the less martial brother solved the problem (directing the river to go around the city rather than over it, possibly in the sky as well as around Raibanth).
  13. I am still curious how Shargash get's associated with bronze, though - he probably did produce lots of it by slaying/dismembering/chaining Umath, but it shouldn't be part of his make-up. Brass (the Lodril-spawned combination of Sky and Earth) is identical to bronze in metallurgical terms, but shouldn't apply to Shargash either. If an alloy at all, it would have to be one of the Underworld (lead) and sky (tin -> pewter, or silver -> an alloy best known for falsified coins), I am fully aware of the fact that the Red Planet and Sedenya aren't allied at all times - sibling relations can be hard. There is a significant snippet in the GRoY pdf, p.74 (10, Pre-Dawn Risings):
  14. Thank you, Martin, for the reference, but I found those sidebar descriptions to be rather incomplete, compared with the versions in the most recent edition of Glorious ReAscent of Yelm and Heortling Mythology. Both sources mentioned above go into more detail, but name different participants than the eight planetary sons of Yelm in the 5th plate. (GRoY p.74-75. Heortling Mythology p.28) Evidently only three planets survive the visit of Umath. Heortling Mythology p.35 goes into detail about the final fight between Umath and the Red Planet deity, and mentions the change into the Black Planet deity from hell, negating Umath's magic against the Red God. A part of the discussion over on G+ was about our disagreement whether Tolat (the deity of the Zaranistangi) had an origin in Hell or not. I wonder whether the fight between Umath and Shargash saw Shargash entering the Underworld, or being replaced by an Underworld deity. I note that plate 8 doesn't show Shargash any more. Plate 10 shows no planets other than Entekos, Shargash and Orlanth - the rest are the fragments of Yelm (including the successor to Ghevengus/Makestina). Peter argued that these are Shargash myths, not Tolat myths, though. The Guide does offer a few Tolat myths, and perhaps more about his sword. Otherwise, the name appears only in old Western sources (thanks for corroborating that, @David Scott) and in the snippets of Pamaltelan and Eastern myths in Revealed Mythologies. I am preparing a collection of references from that source and a few peripheral ones from e.g. Middle Sea Empire. (BTW - are the current editions of the pdf searchable? Mine isn't.)
  15. Red Planet Gods in the sequence they saw publication: Tolat - RQ3 era Genertela Box (God of the Amazons) and Elder Secrets (revelation of there being a Red Planet) (1988 or so, and I have to check the Troll Gods Annilla cult for any mentions). I know that I saw Artia mentioned in some of Greg's early stories in the West when browsing through exclusive convention auction items at conventions, and I think Tolat was present in some of those documents, too, so this deity and his stellar role probably predates even the publication of White Bear and Red Moon in 1975. His only mention in the most recent edition of Glorious ReAscent of Yelm is quite interesting in light of his alliance with the Artmali. Jagrekriand - enemy god in King of Sartar (1992) - probably different from Jajamokki, Harmast Barefoot's heroquesting nemesis, whose name suggests a Jajalaring and dog connection (Jajamokki was mentioned already 1983 in RQ Companion). Jagrekriand's only feat is to break the wheel of Mastakos' Chariot early in the Westfaring. Shargash - god of Alkoth, son of Yelm, in Glorious ReAscent of Yelm (1994) - after a rather comical defeat against Nestentos, Shargash turns out to be a destructive war god, almost the Dara Happan version of Zorak Zoran. His biggest feat before destroying the last surviving bits of the world (according to Dara Happan myth), the slaying/chaining/dismemberment of Umath, was introduced only years later, possibly in a later edition of GRoY, possibly in Heortling Mythology - it is missing in the Plentonius text. While it appears in the current edition of the Glorious ReAscent, that version bears many similarities to the Orlanthi version of the story published in Heortling Mythology. The revised edition of King of Sartar mentions Shargash in the Dragonrise and in the Fazzur chapter, but I think all those mentions are part of the revisions. Vorthan - war god of Jonatela, in Guide to Glorantha (2015) I will exclude Balumbasta, also mentioned in the Guide to claim the Red Planet in Doraddi myth - while this makes the Pamaltelan fire god ore of a not-Lodril bent, the Doraddi had ample bad experience with the Artmali and their Loper allies to have had their taste of Tolat, and to know his association with that planet.