svensson

I just deleted probably 500 words of rebuttal in support of Chaosium and RQG, but I can summarize all of it in just a few sentences.

1. I'm excited and very much anticipate the Gods of Glorantha books. 8-year-old me is awaiting Santa with baited breath, even if I already know what my present is gonna be.

2. I don't know WT-freaking-F people are complaining about. I really don't. Chaosium isn't Wizards of HasBorg. Their creativity isn't backed by Pokemon and MTG sales. It isn't Paizo, with it's die-hard [and to be fair, hard-won] fanbase. We [the RQG fans] are getting what we love THIS-FREAKING-YEAR. We wanted Gods of Glorantha, and we're getting it.

3. At a wild-arsed-guess, some 100 creators are busting their asses to make us happy between Chaosium, its subcontractors, and the Jonstown Compendium creator/publisher. There is enough material out there right this minute that I can't afford to buy it all. And more is on the way.

There. I said it. And with a Hell of a lot fewer curse words than I thought.

2 hours ago, Ian A. Thomson said:

You mean 'Jorjar the Quick' I imagine. I think Jarang Bladesong was a rebel with something to do with the Cradle defense.

You're probably right, but damned if I can find that illustration to prove either one of us right or wrong. Yelm knows I looked for it.

Achmaemenid bas reliefs, ruins of Persepolis, by Tachar

2 hours ago, SDLeary said:

It looks good to me. I might change skills a bit, perhap "Bow or Javelin".

I may have missed something though, how do you think he gains Motion?

SDLeary

It was a little addition on my part to tie him to the Storm pantheon. I found it a little odd that Elmal didn't share any runes at all with the two gods he was most associated with, Chalana Arroy and Orlanth, so I added Movement [as represented by horsemanship] to give Elmal a runic tie to the pantheon.

It made sense in my mind, but YGWV.

On 4/14/2023 at 8:49 AM, Bahntah said:

I am reading through RQ2/RQC and trying to understand all the options in character creation.

If a character joins the mercenaries, the book lists the weapons and armor of their company. They gain skills relevant to those weapons, but no details are provided about the armor.

Do they start with all the weapons/armor of that mercenary company? Or do they still have to buy them?

 

EDIT: If I can add a second question, can you take credit from only one guild, or can you take it from both (eg) the fighters guild and your cult?

1. If you look in the description of each type of Warrior profession [Heavy or Light, Infantry or Cavalry], you'll find the armors listed there. Those are 'free' in that they're part of the equipment by which you earn your trade. The character generation does not say whether or not you are still a member of a mercenary company or not because that's for the referee to decide once he sets up the parameters of the campaign.

2. There is no 'Fighters Guild' in Glorantha. The god Humakt uses his temple as a hiring hall for mercenaries and in wartime will recruit mercenaries to fill out the ranks of a company based out of that temple for the duration. The best place to leave your money is with your cult. This is VERY handy when you need to tap your cash for ransom. Depending on how nasty a fight was and how desperate you captors are, you may have to pay far more than the listed average ransom for someone of your social status.

Also note that the Humakt temple is not the only place a mercenary can get hired. Some larger and more formal companies recruit under their own flags based on their own reputation. If you need to be equipped by such a company, you'll have to negotiate any deficiencies in equipment with them.

@mfbrandi

There's a lot of exceptions, exclusions, odd INclusions, and other strange moments of 'you'd think that but...' in Glorantha. The beauty of Glorantha is that it all has its own internal logic, but sometimes you have to be shown where the 'Stafford-isms' are.

Sometimes I think The Great Greg is just Illuminating us all and laughing butt off while he does it. 😁

4 hours ago, jean said:

In the boargame Nomad Gods, there is an Eiritha protectress for the Herdmen.

 

It is logical there is a Eiritha-Herd-Man tradition, because the herdmen are , well, herd beasts.

 

 

I can certainly see the 'Glorantha-logic' of that.

But the reverse is also true... while not sapient, herd-men could still be consider Men and tied more to the Man Rune than the Beast Rune.

Hence my question.

And something else occurs to me.

The final version of my take on Elmal is in the download section.

It's only been downloaded 3 times, and one of those was me as I checked the formatting.

So which two of you has seen my final copy? For those of you who haven't, may I suggest that you do so? There were some minor changes from the one here in the discussion.

5 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Except, gods don't give spirit magic... spirits do. Hence why it's called "spirit" magic...

So, at the moment, your fire god that drives the sun across the sky, currently gives zero fire magic himself.

(Unless you're changing point 1)

You're forgetting the myth of how Elmal joined the Storm Tribe (unless it's been retconned).

When Elmal first came to the Storm Tribe, all the other gods laughed at him because he was riding a horse - all except Redalda, who loved the horse. And it was this reason that those two got together (ie, they bonded over horses... as people do).

Passing this bit of magic off onto the ones who scorned him and his horse doesn't fit the myths...

Besides, Elmal was focussed on both the guarding and the horsing - (and other things, but aren't really mentioned)... and the guarding only came about when Orlanth left the stead to go fight Chaos and Elmal got left behind.

So, while it's your cult and your write-up, I do think your conflating the god, who he is and what he did, with the cult and what you want them to do. You could create an Eurmal Rex cult who is loved and adored by all, that has all powers from all elements ... but it wouldn't be supported by the myths that we have been given.

Okay, as I understand it spirits loyal to a deity provide the deity's Spirit Magic.

As for horses and retconning...

I'm not rewriting the myths, nor am I trying to make Elmal/Yelamalio something he is not. My version of Elmal is how I think Storm clans sees him. The myths haven't changed, it is two societies who view the myths differently. They have different priorities and each sees the same myths in a different light [pun intended]. Because of these differences in viewpoint and emphasis, the cults will be very different from each other.

As I have said, think of this as two Protestant Christian faiths, say the Lutherans and the Calvinists. Each of them believes in the same sacred text, the Bible. Each of them worships the same Trinity. But each ascribes different importance to sacred events they both acknowledge and believe in. What's more, both were developed in different societies... the cultures were similar but if you ask ANY German, a Thuringer and a Schweizer [Thuringian and Swiss] have VERY different views on how to live life.

With this in mind, I imagine the Sun-Light-Schism as those Orlanthi who were attracted to a more rigid, more orderly life [without the clan feuds, cattle raids, etc.] chose Yelmalio and the Fire pantheon, while those who were content with rule under the Storm /Orlanthi cultural model stayed loyal to their clans.

4 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

I have 2 questions:

Where was the old Sun Dome in Dragon Pass that was razed during the Dragon Kill and would Sartar Emali find it's ruins as a holy place? I don't recall where I read about it but thought someone might know even if noncanon...

If the lance isn't considered the same as spear (not up to date with new weapon proficiencies) wouldn't the lance also be a weapon of choice for mounted Emali units especially when the Hendriki of old had a good bit of western influence or so I had read, again maybe not canon?

Love the thread Mr. Svensson.

Thanks Erol. Nice of you to say.

Lance is considered a Spear attack while mounted, either one- or two-handed depending on style.

Like you, I have my own biases about Lances and Spears. IMGU, a lance and a spear have one one difference from each other... how many legs are under it when the guy tries to jab it into the other guy. Insofar as construction goes, they are precisely the same weapon. Each of them is a 6-12 foot piece of seasoned hardwood with one bladed end and possibly a metal butt-cap. There are exactly three ways to wield said spear from horseback. Overhand, couched [like a European knight] and two-handed [like a Byzantine cataphract]. Had my way, I'd make Lance its own skill. But that would be getting kind of granular and, well, ticky-tack. The old medievalist in me sees things one way, but the practical gamer in me understands why Spear and Lance were combined.

In my neverending quest to find obscure and useless trivialities to discuss and argue about, the nature of Uralda/Eiritha came up in my Elmal thread and it made me as the question, 'Which deity is the patron/ess of Herd-Men?'

Is there a Eiritha-Herd-Man tradition? Is it still Daka Fal?

9 minutes ago, hipsterinspace said:

Crucially, Sever Spirit is integrated into the Oath spell: if you break your oath you get hit with a Sever Spirit with an effective POW of the magic points stacked into it.

The crucial difference between Oath and Sever Spirit is that Oath is voluntary. You can't 'attack' with an Oath spell, each participant voluntarily contributes MP to the spell's effect. You can avoid the consequences of an Oath spell by simply not participating in it. Of course, that might have other consequences for you, but that's a tail on another herd beast 😉

52 minutes ago, AlexS said:

Thanks @svensson, the writeup is great. I really like the horsey flavour and the light-touch Fire elements. I agree with you about the bow rather than the javelin, though I might swap out the sword for the spear as a differentiator in relation to Yelmalio (though that is influenced by my association of Elmal with Greg's Light Orlanthi cultural tradition, which emphasises the bow and the sword, with the spear as a tertiary weapon).

Although I think the writeup is already pretty playable as is, I am not 100% convinced by the Rune Magic list. In particular I have an issue with the fact that the writeup says that 'Orlanth provides Cloud Clear and Lightning'.

Even though it is an Orlanth Thunderous Spell as well as a Yelm one, Cloud Clear just feel too Sun-centric for me. Elmal is a Lightfore / Little Sun deity (I guess that implies that the Rune Lords should be 'Light Thanes' rather than Sun Thanes, but I'm not so sure about that). 

Sure Elmal has some some Fire powers reflected in his spirit magic selection, but his Rune magic should be about light in the darkness not about the Sun per se. So, Cloud Clear doesn't feel right – and neither does Sunbright but that's just because of the name, as its actual function is about bringing daylight to the darkness which is fine for Elmal.

As for Lightning, it just feels too OP. Would Orlanth really give Elmal an offensive spell rather than a defensive one? Can't he just give the Shield spell? It is already on the list in the writeup, but coming from Elmal directly – if it came through the Orlanth association it would symbolise Elmal being tasked with the defender role.

The list also includes 'Oath Shield', which I presume is missing a comma – so Elmal has Oath as well as Shield. Oath does reflect his Truth Rune, but it just feels a bit too Humaktish; Elmal's loyalty is about who he is, not about a specific binding promise.

To reinforce the horseyness, I'd also add Speak with Horse to the list – but coming from Elmal's association with Redalda (not Uralda, she's the Cow Mother), as @Akhôrahil had suggested.

Anyway, thanks again for your work on this, and for kicking off a great discussion!

You're welcome Alex. I appreciate the support.

My version of Elmal may not jive with Your Glorantha. That's totally fine. No game, milieu, or setting survives contact with player characters intact anyway 😁

I don't think Lightning is OP when you compare it to Thunderbolt and Sunstrike. Of the three, it is the lesser spell. What's more, it can be cast in any weather or lighting condition and I feel this makes it appropriate for a warrior cult with close ties to Orlanth.

I did omit a comma with Oath and Shield, thanks for the catch.

I put Oath and Detect Truth in the spell lists to acknowledge Elmal's ties with the Truth Rune and I don't feel Oath is as 'Humakt-ish' as, say, Sever Spirit. I think of Oath as a spell to bind strangers into an honorable pact, thereby building the trust that is essential to a clan, so I included it in Elmal's portfolio. My thought was that in the Great Darkness, many strangers were guided to safety by Elmal's Light. Trust had to be built and the Oath spell illustrates that process.

As I have read Uralda, she is the HERD mother... the patroness of all beasts who are domesticated by Men. While the Praxians may separate Eiritha into Impala-Eiritha, Llama-Eiritha, and so forth in their spirit traditions, it has no effect on Rune Magics employed. A Bison-Woman can cast an Eiritha spell on a Bolo Lizard with the same efficacy it would have on her own herd beasts. Because of that, I see Uralda taking in cattle, horses, goats, and so on under her care. Certainly the Orlanthi focus of Uralda worship is on cattle... that is the basic unit of wealth. But it's not too far off the beaten path to see Uralda-women in the Enhyli clan caring for the annual foaling.

1 hour ago, radmonger said:

Firing a bow  from horseback in a militarily effective way, using no magic and bronze age gear,goes beyond professional to requiring a whole way of life. Even most roman and medieval mounted archers would dismount to shoot, although the Romans did have some nomad auxiliaries with the relevant skills.

Meanwhile in Glorantha, Yelmalio teaches Kuschile horse archery, which while badly represented in the rules, is clearly meant to let someone fire from horseback while moving, with unexceptional ride skill. And whatever Elmal cultists may or may not think, Yelmalio temples absolutely do consider Elmal initiates to be one of their own, and so will teach them that.

I do think most Elmali thanes would take advantage of that offer. But if there are any that reject it, they are probably better off using javelins well than bows badly.

But Yelmalio's cult is not, and does have Rune Priests...

 

And yet of the two Sun Dome Counties we have any information about, neither of them field cavalry. This, of course, doesn't mean that they don't have horses but it does imply quite strongly that horsemanship and horse archery are simply not a priority and it is not focused upon.

As for the size of the two cults, well, so what? Yelmalio's is a different path, one of rigid thought, draconian social control, and an incredible lack of the freedom so beloved by Orlanthi everywhere. I specifically designed my version of Elmal to be a Storm cult, for those who remained loyal to their clans and to the Orlanthi way of life.

@Shiningbrow

Oh, one of your points that I forgot to mention. In an Elmal-worshiping clan, you can pretty much bet that Uralda/Eiritha are gonna have a larger presence than is normal in a more 'mainstream' Orlanthi clan. The Uralda/Eiritha cult provides a great deal of 'herd-health' magic and I thought that they would handle foaling. This leaves the horsemen/women of Elmal free to do the work they're focused on, guardianship.

@Shiningbrow

Thanks for your thoughts! I'll reply in something like the order you posted.

1. Orlanthi use both Bows and Javelins in roughly equal proportions, and every professional warrior in Glorantha starts a battle by whittling the odds down some with missile fire. And those that don't are fools. 😁 OK, there is the heavy infantry [Yelmalion phalangists, etc.] who pay other people to do it for them, but it still gets done.

Slings are perceived as a poor carl's weapon, the kind of thing a sheepherder would use. More importantly, slings are classified as Darkness weapons [what with the blunt ammo] and is the iconic weapon of the Uz god Zong, Kyger Litor's Hunting Son. Bows are seen to require more skill to use, more skilled maintenance, and are therefore considered more 'professional'. Javelins are in between. It's not unreasonable that an Elmali would choose Javelin instead of Bow based on availability on and finances of a steading. Given that Elmal's principle Elemental Rune remains Fire, I don't see a problem there.

2. Elmal worshiping clans are just as adept as Horsegrazers or Pol-Joni for breeding excellent horseflesh, thank you very much. While the Orlanthi don't field heavy cavalry like the Carmanian kataphraktoi or Praxian Bison Riders [and let's be honest here... the Bison Riders 'heavy' cavalry is the size of the mount not the armor on the man], I haven't seen anything that says that says the Enhyli of the Colymar Tribe doesn't contribute a highly practiced and very capable medium cavalry squadron to the Colymar's war muster. So I've chosen to encourage that behavior.

Again, this is only providing MINOR access to the skill set. No Orlanthi army has a predominance of cavalry forces and most Orlanthi commanders are not cavalry commanders. This is one reason why, from a practical standpoint, Argrath marrying the Feathered Horse Queen is so important. It provides the Dragon Pass forces with cavalry every single bit as good as the Lunar levies from Carmania and Pent.

3. I didn't really emphasize the Fire aspect of Elmal other than three Spirit Magic spells. Whether the Yelmites like it or not, Elmal the Loyal Thane was one of the Lights in the Great Darkness, and he worked to save people just as hard as Pole Star and Yelorna, and with MUCH more success than the latter. He 'kept the home fires burning', so to speak, guiding people to safety and because of that I felt that he ought to have some fire magic, but not a lot of it. This is also the reason why Elmal doesn't summon or control Fire elementals.

4. As to Spirit Magic spell selections, Elmal's cult is small. What's more, it has the same problems with spellteaching as Humakt's cult does: the only source of spellteaching are the Sun Thanes... in addition to training damned near anyone who asks how to ride a horse, supervising the horse herds of the clan and possibly tribe [hey, go to the expert, right?], being a professional thane in service to the clan and tribe etc.

With those two factors in play, I felt that the spell list should be pretty limited. You'll notice that Elmal doesn't teach Bladesharp either... Besides, Heal and Protection are easily available to an Elmali clansman through Ernalda and Orlanth respectively.

5. I thought Lantern, cast on a shield as it is, was more important to a guardsman type figure. YGMV, but that's how I saw it.

6. Because of his work in defending the people from all enemies and in all circumstances, I felt that Orlanth would reward his Loyal Thane with one of his iconic combat spells when he held his great feast after the Lightbringers Quest. Lightning made more sense than Thunderbolt.

7. The reason I didn't give Elmal anti-Chaos magic was because that's a very niche set of magical skills. Only one god in the Storm Pantheon has that magic, and Elmal's myths don't ever mention Urox/Storm Bull. That's why I didn't include those spells. Elmal did face Chaos, but he had to master the fear within himself instead of bolstering his Courage with magic. And in a sense, that makes him all the more admirable.

I think that got to everything you mentioned and I hope I answered your questions.  Take a look at my final version in the Downloads section.

I've uploaded my final version of my Elmal to the Downloads section for those interested.

Well, I promised you all my final writeup by today, so here it is.

This isn't 1000% in accordance to every single bit of lore we have. I've done my best to make a Storm cult with Elmal's focus that isn't dependent on Yelmalio for its myths or its conflicts. As I said earlier, I think of this as being two sects of Christians who worship the same God for the same reasons, but they focus on different roles, doctrine, and theology.

And, as always, Your Glorantha Will Vary.

One somewhat serious. Kinda Ernalda-ish, right?

And one because, well, we are who we are. This one goes out to HOA Presidents everywhere...

Umm.... learn topiary? 😁

Some more images from my Atalan files.

The first is from the BBC's series on the Minoans.

The second artist is unknown, but is a Sims game mod.

Third is the wonderful Angus McBride.

The fourth artist is unknown.

@Rob Darvall

1. Elmal, Yelmalio, and how worshipers see it.

There is a distinct difference between those who believe a religious doctrine and the objective facts base on evidence. The doctrinal split between Elmal and Yelmalio is based on God Learner writings and our own very secular take on comparative theology. The way I see the split is that those who are dissatisfied with the Storm Pantheon or Orlanthi culture became Yelmalions and those who were satisfied with Elmal's place and the culture that went along with it stayed with Elmal. My statement of 'that's not the way we do it, so what?' is from the believer's standpoint not a doctor of divinity's lectern.

2. The Sun Domes and Horses.

In WF15, @Jeff Richards portrays the County of Vanntar [the Sun Dome Temple in Dragon Pass] as also having given up the horse to focus on their Templar phalanxes. If this is common among all SDTs, it could be that Yelmalion doctrine has backed off the horse aspect of the portfolio out of respect of Yelm's focus on it. But a very beneficial side effect of that for Sky cultists isolated in a land full of Storm and Earth worshipers is the emphasis on xenophobia and the social control that a dismounted population gives the temple hierarchy. Less people traveling means fewer people getting silly ideas in their heads... you know, foolish things like free will, personal choice, personal responsibility, dissent with government....

5 hours ago, AndreJarosch said:

I don´t want to derail this tread, but: 

Since the spirit of a dead person can (will?) be reborn at some point, is this ancestor gone, and no longer available via ancestor worship when he is reincarnated?

It's an interesting question. But with hundreds of thousands to choose from, it shouldn't be a problem.

The Yelmalio cult is the DDR [aka East Germany] of Glorantha.

They're desperately xenophobic, incredibly close-minded, and highly pissed off that their more relaxed neighbors are doing just about everything better than they are.

There. I said it.

And just to digress a little bit, it occurs to me that the Yelmalion basic sense of xenophobia and their deep seated need for social control is the single major reason why they abandoned the horse aspect of their faith. Horses let people travel and people traveling leads to all sorts of heretical and forbidden things into the County. You know, like 'ideas' and stuff...