davecake

I have to say that if your Lhankor Mhy player (or you yourself) are experiencing any difficulty in understanding how Illumination can be reconciled with the pursuit of knowledge, or for that matter the value of Pelorian esoterica like the Entekosiad, those Irripi Ontor guys are right there to explain it all to you. They are definitely willing to help. And if you end up deciding the Lunars are right at some point, well, that’s just natural. Subtle manipulation and scheming, while appearing helpful and friendly, is classic IO tactics. While IO magicians can handle themselves in a fight the way LM generally can’t (thanks to Mindblast and Madness, some of the best attack spells in the game), they usually prefer to carefully learn what their opponents are up too, and then manipulate them. And Illuminated IO magicians can use Illusion magic as well as Truth. IO magicians make great long term antagonists for LM heroes, especially if the relationship can develop some frenemy aspects. While my Red Cow game has no LM PCs, Tatoukal Blackbeard has been a terrific help to the PCs - and now controls one PC through blackmail.

Remember to rewrite all the bits about Elmal because Jeff doesn't agree with them! Just kidding, that would be ridiculous.

Annilla, Tolat largely worshipped by the Veldang. Ernalda and Gata mostly we are talking about the local grain goddess (millet). Lodik = Lodril? = Balumbasta. Worlath = Bandaku, who is regarded as a foreign invader god probably worshipped by Seamen, bandits, etc. They do hate the Trickster, and regard him as a antisocial murderer. But this is in large part the God Learners totally misunderstanding what they are seeing.

I pretty much assumed that CMS was Shargash, yeah. I tend to think of him as Malkioni, but not Vadeli. Probably from that river tribe of Waertagi who came up the Janube. The Waertagi, of course, are entirely happy to combine sorcery with worship of Water deities (and crossbreeding with water entities), so we don't have to keep debating between sorcery and Water connections - obviously, both. And they can get pretty creepy themselves. I don't really get Bisos as just a name for Storm Bull, though - Bisos seems much more a fertility deity first, warrior god second.

I hope at least we hope for writeups of the sects (I think I'd find separate writeup for the Rokari and the New Hrestoli more useful than trying to combine both). I currently feel that the RQG rules go too far in constraining the abilities of individual sorcerers (though I agree with the general direction) and worry that the promised Western rules will have to significantly change how sorcerery works in practice to be make it work well for those cultures (and probably won't change it enough). Of course, I could be pleasantly surprised.

I'm going to move on from that tedious argument, but I want to address Jeffs comments. Well, my complaint is more that they make lousy adventurers because the rules make them ineffective and dull to play - and I think its relatively fixable while still retaining the core feel of Gloranthan sorcery. It wouldn't be hard at all to make sorcerers much more fun to play while still being more learning focussed and less broadly flexible than other forms of magic as appropriate (and, indeed, this is what I think the HQG rules do - and for that matter the Mythras rules, and some other variants). The combination of 1 skill per spell, very slow starting levels, and very few options to increase, is what really constricts sorcerers - and the 1 skill per spell rule seems to me to be both not terribly fitting with the idea of sorcery as a systematic body of knowledge, and a deliberate design choice to *make* sorcerers lousy adventurers, one that could easily be changed. Good old Irripi Ontor already has access to practically the best offensive Rune spells in the game (Mindblast and Madness). And I think the idea that Irripi Ontor is supposed to be a cult of quiet scholars who aren't adventurers sits very poorly with the mythology and history - his powerful combat casting at Four Arrows of Light, for example, and the whole active magical conspiracy of the Seven Mothers. But then, IO does have offensive sorcery as well. Eminently suited to be adventurers. (even if the conception of IO seems to be moving away from the gloriously duplicitous version of HQG towards something far more staid and constrained). LM certainly has rather lame spirit magic - IO at least gets Befuddle. Adventuring members of either can generally do fine because they aren't sticking to the free/cheap spells, and can learn from other cults etc. Sure, they are outliers from standard cult practice, but so are most PCs. In practice, spirit magic for adventurers is seldom a real issue. Well, the whole thread has been about pure sorcerers from a rules point of view - that is characters who only use sorcery, no other magic, and I think the consensus is that they don't really work. But the rules also seem to say that there are intended to be other rules that expand on the sorcery rules for Malkioni of all stripes. I think there is a big difference between 'we haven't written the rules for adventurers from those cultures yet' (which is obviously the case, and I support) and 'the authors don't think those cultures will ever be good adventurers even when the rules are written''. I certainly hope that once the Invisible God has been detailed (and more importantly, some of the major sects) that Loskalmi sorcerers, in particular, will be playable adventurers, because without it the Loskalm vs Kingdom of War conflict is drifting dead in the water. I understand that that point will be years away, but it is still an issue is important to consider. Certainly, but that shouldn't preclude them being player characters. Its kind of a description of many Ars Magica sorcerers - who still manage to be fun PCs. Some constraints on sorcery make sorcerers poor *solo* PCs, and that is totally fine. But RQG sorcerers have additional constraints that make them pretty boring compared to not just Ars Magica magi, but almost all magic users in RQ or any other game, effectively restricting them to a tiny handful of spells that they can use effectively, and that seems excessive. The Loskalmi Men of All seem to be both characters that are within the realistic range of the sort of character that would make a good PC, and almost encouraged to attempt heroic deeds. They should be great PCs. If the rules end up saying 'of course, your magic will suck until we've had several decades of game play'. that would be a disappointing outcome. And it is totally fine that your hero level cultural leaders are ancient. There should be a big gulf between those guys and being competitive with other PCs, enough that playing a PC from a sorcerous cult/culture doesn't feel like you are assuming a handicap. I agree that sorcerous heroquesting should be an important thing - I disagree that it disappeared with the God Learners though. Of course the Arkati are heroquesters, the Lunars are heroquesters, and I'm increasingly coming to the conclusion that the Ascended Masters teach, among other things, heroquest paths that their adherents are encouraged to pursue. And the Loskalmi are explicitly flagged as unearthing God Learner magic as well.

There are plenty of other animal life for broo to mate with other than cows or milk antelope animals. Warthogs, other antelopes and gazelles, elands, rhinoceroses, wildebeest, and a really big array of megafauna. The prevalence of megafauna may be a practical reason (along with the general mythic tendency) why there are less broo in Pamaltela, but they are more indiividually dangerous - there are probably a few megafauna broo. That said, I think your average broo in the nargan or the plains generally is probably some form of antelope headed.

I didn’t say there were no gods with the Rune, just that they didn’t grant spells (Pavis has the rune, but does not grant Stasis rune magic, only sorcery - his only Rune spell is the City Harmony spell). But I had missed Lodrils Sons. So if we assume Mostali (and Flintnail) magic is all sorcery, we seem to have a grand total of one Stasis Rune Spell.

There are some big chaos nests in Pamaltela. The Forest of Disease in Laskal. The Alkali Lakes in Zamokil.

Your argument is so obtuse, it’s pointless continuing. I was explicit that my argument was based around common divine magic, from the divine side - but any major deity with a good selection of associated deities makes it far stronger, Orlanth is just literally the closest you get to a generic Rune magic user, the same point could be made with Ernalda, Yelm, a lot of the Lightbringers (and boy, haven’t even talked about Issaries), the Seven Mothers. That point being that the advantage in flexibility of effect that a Rune magic user has over a sorcerer is so large as to be almost unmatchable by a sorcerer - and add the range of magic provided by a developed major deity at the centre of a pantheon, and its pretty much huge. now, that isn’t to say that sorcery doesn’t have its own potential, but it’s very different. Flexibility of potential, perhaps Of course it does. But your argument is not a counter argument to mine, it’s essentially an orthogonal claim that isn’t under dispute. I’m saying an individual sorcerer can never be as flexible as most Rune magic users, at least not without a huge amount of time and resources. You are saying sorcery, as an entire collective magic system, given enough time, can do things Rune magic can’t. Both are true, but they are obviously not contradictory statements, and you seem to think they are. And this point has been made enough times clearly, that if you don’t understand it by now I don’t know why, and am disinclined to spend more time trying. No. I mean, I kind of think it’s true for RQG, but not because of this philosophical difference between them, but rather because there are design decisions made in creating not just sorcery, but some other rules, that exaggerate the way this is expressed in the rules to a high degree. I personally think someone who has devoted a big chunk of their career to Water sorcery should be able to competently cast, say, a dozen Water sorcery spells not just 3-4. But that’s not really addressing the issue (a Water sorcerer isn’t going to be able to use Water magic to ward off ghosts), just making it more fun and interesting to play a sorcerer. I don’t think it would be a problem if, for example, your individual Lhankor Mhy sorcerer was able to competently cast most of the spells in Torvalds Fragments, instead of a small subset. But I think the idea that individual sorcerers at least start off as much less flexible than Rune magic users is pretty intrinsic to Gloranthan sorcery. But sorcery still has advantages that Divine Magic doesn’t have either. It can combine types of magic that Divine magicians can not practically do at all. It can, given a few years, create a new spell that deals well with a specific problem. You can use sorcery to aid others more effectively that you can with Divine magic, thanks to long lasting Duration. It can create very powerful individual spells, should a sorcerer focus on it. It rewards cooperation as a group. Ideally, I think sorcery and Rune magic should be about as effective as each other, but still very different. At the moment, sorcery is generally much weaker, BUT we are missing large parts of the sorcery rules as they would be used by pure sorcerers.

From a strict rules point of view - all of LMs Rune magic uses Truth. In the RQG rules, there is literally no Stasis Rune Magic at all for any cult - and I'm not really aware of any other Stasis magic except for the Mostali (counting Flintnail as Mostali) for RQG OR HQG, though there is probably something I've overlooked. It is the little Rune that couldn't. So a Lhankor Mhy who is bad at the Stasis Rune will enjoy no rules penalties at all really, it won't change their ability to cast their Gods magic in the slightest. Of course the Sages will stroke their beards disapprovingly and talk about how no one so flighty and inconstant will ever be a good sage because they will never properly write the sort of multi-volume study written over decades that shows the worth of a true scholar - but unlike all those other idiot apprentices who tried to make a name for themselves by exploring ancient ruins instead, and just got eaten by undead or whatever, your PCs intrepid explorations may be successful and recover long lost knowledge or knowledge from strange foreign sources, and so prove their worth as a sage. FWIW, I don't think it ever featured in their iconography much. LM is clearly obsessed with Truth, up to their Truth rune shaped buildings (the only other cults who feel the need to reflect their Runes in the shape of their architecture have vastly more sensible squares and domes, IIRC). I've never seen any evidence they care about the stasis connection anywhere near as much.

The seduction is the only one that strictly requires magic that isn’t common divine, but all of them are within the range of magic known by an Orlanthi (Charisma spell from Eurmal covers seduction).

Basically, the new GoG says there are few meaningful divine differences between Lhankor Mhy and Buserian (apart from different allied cults), and the God Learners treated them as different names for the same God, and the GL are substantially correct. It takes a similar course for a lot of deities. They have the same Divine spells (apart from allies), and both use sorcery (though the sorcery spells are substantially different -Buserian is much more into celestial magic). IO is a Lunarised version of Buserian, so has a different set of allied cults, and some access to Lunar Rune magic and Sorcery.

In practical terms, I think this more or translates from Western to Elasa script. i also don’t think it really ‘works’ flawlessly - translating spells from a Western grimoire is still really impractical without knowing Western, but a Lhankor Mhy who does know Western can relatively easily produce a version of the spell for other Lhankor Mhy to use. As far as corruption, not really sure if this is a real thing or not.

Compare Cronisper, as fire energy descending from the Sky to mate with the Earth/divine power descending.

That’s probably Hanjethulut (like Zorak Zoran, but not associated with trolls) and Orjethulut (like Humakt), two Fonritian war gods that fought everyone else, but then made peace. They are fierce rivals, but do not attach other unless their numbers are unequal (a strict census ensures their numbers are equal by sacrificing the excess).

Sure, just not tropical pygmies.

Yeah, Divination block is Illusion, and as that was Selarns spell in RQ3, so I’m sure they still have it. Lanbril could be the generic thief god, and he has Illusion, Disorder. Mastery. The interesting thing about Selarn is the brotherhood claims to predate the Dawn, so they are older than modern Fonrit, older than the Garangardites, presumably once a Veldang cult. Which means all that mysterious thievery could be blue moon related maybe. Or even, at a real stretch, Vadeli.

Damn you autocorrect.

When Garangordos and friends leave Laskal, they are not yet the Glorious Ones, but only after heroquesting in Fonrit. I don’t think they ever conquered Laskal. Neither are politically defined, both contain multiple polities.

No, the Vadeli have contact with the slarges, just the very negative contact of the Slarges destroying Oabil. But we don’t really know much about what happens to them between their creation in the Holden Age and their attack on Oabil though. We know there are stories of ugly wars between the slarges and the Doradfi of Tarien,, but we don’t know when. I think there is a story about how the Golden Age pelmre became the slarges with their weird two stage reproduction, but what that is, no one but the slarges are telling.

But does not pre-date the Doraddi. I don’t think Seseine was a cult invented/discovered in Fonrit, I think if anywhere the cult originates with the Vadeli in Oabil, or when the Vadeli encounter the Artmali. Yeah, but the Doraddi sexualise that WAY more. Their ritual magic is often orgies. Seseine isn’t about seduction because you sexually desire the person and want to make that desire mutual. That is normal and healthy. Seseine is about using desire to manipulate for selfish reasons, about treating others as pawns and toys, which is corrupt and creepy and therefore. Seseine is seduction without caring about the one seduced. (But yes, Afidisa is a beauty and very desirable)

I agree. I’m actually really curious as to whether this is an intended or unintended aspect of the rules design, but the rules really encourage sorcerers who want to be able to mitigate some of the problems of sorcery to have a lot of spirits, and particularly to cast spirit magic ‘second hand’ by having spirits that can cast it for them. I’m not sure whether this makes sorcerers more or less ‘sorcerous’ feeling. Sorcerers may even differ in their opinions.

I think they might have seen that trick before.

Bound spirits come under the general category of ‘magic point generators’. But someone has to know Binding Enchantment, and to summon and bind the spirit, which is a lot of work. It is clearly a good idea, but it’s also a big investment of resources. The spirit magicians probably have a bit of advantage here - I wonder if there are penalties for sorcerers using magic items from other traditions? Of course, in Malkioni society, someone else learns those spells and keeps churning them out for the common good, and there are probably a few lying around from previous generations. I assume sorcerous societies give out such magic items to new magi the way divine cults give out Allied Spirits and iron armour and such to their priests and Rune lords. They sure are, though I suspect most are in objects not animals. Allied spirits are really super handy for sorcerers though, as the memorise spells for you!