davecake

Common Divine Magic is a great big pile of useful divine magic, much of it both castable (instantly) in combat and of great tactical utility in combat, and practical utility out of it. To create a set of a dozen useful combat spells, and then learn each one to a point where it can reliably be cast in combat (taking only a couple of rounds, still far off ‘instant’) is the work of decades at least, probably a lifetime, just to get to where most Divine casters *start* Sorcery in RQG is flexible from the point of view of an entire culture or nation - but very inflexible from the point of view of any individual, especially PCs. You obviously play a quite different style of game to me, one in which PCs very seldom get into situations such as combat or other situations requiring some sort of urgent response. RM, MSE, and material on Glorantha.com for the most part, plus material in the Guide. I prefer not to go back to the original Malkioni writings if they contradict later material, and in any case I have virtually no access to them. i would add that I have significant knowledge of several of the real world magical traditions that have been mentioned as inspiration sources for sorcery. A large body of organised common theory (sets of correspondences, names, simile, etc) that need to be learnt, but from which new effects might be then extrapolated, is a feature of most of them. The idea that skill might largely transfer from one magical effect to another seems right from that point of view too. Yes, Presence was literally designed more or less as a fix for the perceived problems of exponential Duration, they should not coexist in the one rule system really.

Berneel Arashagern is of course a part of Yelm, isn’t really a ‘dragon’ deity* as the Golden Dragon claimed, but Yelm as husband to Dendara (and Yelm as father). So the orb in the sky may be asexual, but Yelm has a mighty ‘serpent’, with whom he fathered many deities. I don’t think they talk about this much in any public Yelm rite, but I think it is more explicitly acknowledged in the (associate cults etc) shared rites with Dendara. Don’t be believing all that ‘Yelm is sexless and high and pure and misogynist’ stuff that creepy old uncle Plentonius tries to sell you. *except in that secret Darudic ‘the dragon is Kundalini’ way maybe. There are mysteries still.

The difference is that in RQG, it is unlikely for a Lhankor Mhy sorcerer to have more than a couple of those at a level where they can cast more than 2-3 of those at a reliable, in fact the game rules don’t really support making that effort ever.

Indeed. And I continue to think you were, well, more right. FWIW, I think the reasoning for flexibility of effect in sorcery is pretty much the same as for adding the flexibility of effect to Rune magic (via Rune Points rather than individual spells), only stronger - both more fun, and the minor but interesting spells (Wind Words was the example usually used) actually get used. I’m sure there is some reasoned position why you think RQG is a better approach - I just have no idea what it may be, as to me it seems a lot less fun, a lot harder to balance, and less close to the sources.

The general consensus of the many discussions around ‘how to fix sorcery’ back in the 1990s was that the fundamental maths of sorcery was different. Both priests and shamans became more powerful more or less linearly based on POW sacrificed. Sorcerers, on the other hand, grew more powerful roughly exponentially based on skill and Free INT. When they did use POW to boost themselves, they often used it to create items that added to the manipulation of their spells - meaning it was also boosting them exponentially, but in a way they could pass on to their descendants. The relative power of sorcerers was often cited as the big problem with sorcerers in RQ3. I don’t think this was actually the case in most games - you had to spend a LOT of time and resources for a PC to approach the insane level of published NPCs like the Griffin Island version of Halcyon Var Enkorth (so crazily different to the Griffon Mountain NPC of the same name it is surprising they even reused the name). It was true that sorcerers started with weak, unreliable magic that was hard to improve - but if they kept at it, shortly after they relatively caught up with their peers, they then outpaced them. Sorcery was really the worst of both worlds for game balance - because it ran on different rules, it was either too weak or too powerful, only sometimes about the same. It also had the effect that optimum play of your sorcerer meant a lot of dull calculations (‘spells and spreadsheets’) to work out how many long duration spells could be maintained. Sandys sorcery cut this Gordian knot by keeping the general concepts - slow to cast spells but that could be prepared in advance for relatively permanent defences and enhancements - through various means, but particularly with his concept of ‘Presence’, which scaled linearly with POW dedicated to it, thus keeping it distinctive but scaling loosely the same way. And the calculation of your sorcerers maintained spells etc was similarly simplified. The other issue is flexibility aspect of sorcery. RQ3 sorcery had a lot of flexibility is size/application of effect - and this meant sorcery radically changing the duration (to give effectively permanently in effect spells especially) and multispell (to effect many targets) radically changed how magic worked in practice, and especially when at high power and combined with other magic was seen as potentially unbalancing, or at least ‘game-changing’. But it had very little flexibility in type of effect. It was so hard in practice to get a spell (that started very low, and could only be pushed up by training) up to a reliable level that in practice, you wouldn’t much. Quite likely if you started with one good combat attack, you’d end your career with the same one good combat spell. HQG flipped this -spells were supposed to be strictly defined, but it was easy to learn a new one and, as long as it was in the same ‘grimoire’ it was useful from the start. RQG flipped it back - once again sorcerers are flexible in application (Duration, tange, intensity, etc, though without Multispell), but very constrained in their ability to gain new abilities (learning a new spell to a reliable castable level is extremely hard, more restrictive than almost any previous edition due to training rules). I tend to think this is the wrong way around - manipulating can make game balance weird rapidly, and pushes your sorcerer character into a niche, and a niche in which the most important things you do (long term casting) is done mostly ‘off screen’. Flexibility of effect (ie having more useful spells), on the other hand, gives your character more things to do ‘on screen’, thus making everyone’s game more fun. HQG and Mythras did the flexibility of effect issue well, by making a new spell in the same ‘grimoire’ cheap. I was surprised and disappointed that this idea largely disappeared. It also disappointed me from a Gloranthan lore point of view, previously most discussion of sorcery in sources about the West had separated sorcery into schools or grimoires, and there wasn’t much evidence of this idea (indeed, it seemed a bit discouraged or obscured). The idea of sorcerers easily learning a few spells in such a conceptual/Runic cluster seems like a good one, I wish it was in RQG. It also gives the impression that RQG and HQG are somewhat in quite different Gloranthas. Anyway, that’s enough sorcery rant for now. I have plenty more for later though!

Ars Magica has a fairly pure system, as it has the advantage that it could create its equivalent of ‘runes’ and techniques just for the rules. It has 5 verbs and 10 nouns, and most things clearly fit into one combination (and making it a little more complex in those cases is fine). I once tried, long ago, to do this for RQ3 sorcery, and it wasn’t unworkable, though some things had to be forced a little. RQG trues harder to make it adhere to the runes, and also mixes in techniques, and so it is all a bit conceptually incoherent. translating from the Latin, Ars Magica has Create, Destroy, Change, Control, Perceive, and Earth, Air, Fire, Water, Perceptions, Mind, Flesh, Animal, Plant, Magic. RQG sort of sticks together a system of Runes not designed for this purpose with a set of techniques that sort of overlaps, sometimes doesn’t, and leaves us in a confusion as to whether Powers or techniques are the ‘verb’ in any given spell, and also such questions as do you Summon a Rune or Dispel its opposite to get a given effect.

Me too. I still have a very vivid memory of Greg saying “Life is suffering, but suffering is not Life” behind a primary school in Melbourne.

They are literally incomplete - they discuss how “Maintaining the caste restrictions provides bonuses to the use of sorcery (the restrictions depend upon the school of Malkionism); once the restriction is violated, the bonus is forever lost.” but do not provide those bonuses, or any hints at the mechanics, thus clearly not providing the complete rules for any school of Malkionism, the majority of sorcerers in Glorantha. FWIW, I think the current rules were more or less intentionally designed to be inflexible, awkward, and so not much fun to play. A divine magic user in a relatively major cult that has access to all common rune magic after a reasonable amount of play (say, 8-10 rune points) has a really pretty wide range of magic. A bunch of useful utility stuff (such as heal wound, spirit block) and a few cool specialty things, and can flexibly use their Rune Points to care it all. Sorcery gives you some interesting options basically at character creation, but essentially after character creation it is prohibitively expensive and impractical to raise a spell skill to the point where you can reliably cast it in play (rather than taking hours to days to push your casting chance up). In practice, the interesting possibilities of sorcery are illusory - you pick some good spells at character creation, and mostly stick with them. There is a good reason why the cultures that have master sorcerers are mostly immortal, it’s the only way to have a broad selection of spells under the rules! it is no secret that I found the sorcery rules incredibly disappointing. They seem to have kept many of the worst parts of RQ3 sorcery, or even made them worse (it is still very much ‘spells and spreadsheets’ to work out how many long duration spells are up etc, still restricts sorcerers to a narrow range of spells), and added a few more. They made sorcery more fun in HQG - and then immediately removed most of the appeal of that system for RQG, and removed a lot of the Gloranthan lore as well. They more or less grabbed Sandy’s old shaman rules, and now shamanism is great, why that route wasn’t taken with sorcery I don’t know.

As Martin has documented, there is more than one numbering of hell, by different cultures. The Dara Happans number four or five, and 1 is the shallowest and you number down. There is another list that has seven, and goes in the reverse order (and might be Theyalan). There are probably a bunch of other lists - the Kralorelans May have many.

I find the Loskalmi tricky, in that from a philosophical point of view I find them the most playable, with few beliefs that are offensive to modern players, lots of potential for individual PCs to make their own moral choices, etc. But from a rules point of view, as written now their sorcerers only beginning to learn sorcery in mid-to late adulthood, usually in play, means that with the current sorcery rules their magic is going to suck, which makes them less fun to play. I hope we can find a rules hack to fix that somewhat - maybe something to do with obsessive following of the Ascended Masters (though in general I think the Ascended Masters are not worshipped, but provide advanced magical practices to follow for obtaining knowledge through experience rather than book study - eg heroquest practices, monastic disciplines). I think we are a long way off getting them right rules wise and the time probably isn't right to even try, let's get both the Rokari and a bit more on mysticism first. I have found a super useful resource for getting into the Loskalm mindset is the Just City books by Jo Walton, which are set in a version of Plato's Republic (as a divine experiment). Lets you get a feel for life in the city without having to rely only on extrapolating from Plato's Republic directly. In the mean time, I'm strongly tempted towards Safelster 'occult knife fights' with lots of weird sects mixing all sorts of different magic in odd combinations being the easiest option for now. You don't need individual sects to be functional as large social institutions, just go wild. I think they are quite body positive and open about sex, but disdain the open sensuality of the Rokari. They are more high minded (the body is a perfect thing that should be celebrated). I don't think most of them reject the body, rather it should be mastered so it does not interfere with mental discipline. For average folk that means regular exercise (definitely in Plato, even for philosophers) and good hygiene (the Furlandan school of sorcery is one of their favoured practices, and their key book is half hygiene manual that turns into demon banishing), for sorcerers that becomes yoga and meditation, and eventually magical enhancement to the point of self-enchantment and immortality magic. And because of that slight obsession with hygiene, they bathe a lot - so (probably mixed nude) saunas and gymnasiums are more their style. (and as a side note - the Men of All are generally fighting men first, so a lot of their war magic is enhancing their own ability to fight, accomplished Men-of-all are often sorcerously enhanced supermen, they should be fun to play).

My long held theory on the Menena caste is that it is not simply about gender, it is about being able to create and raise children - ie it is properly considered a caste that corresponds to a job. To the traditionalist Rokari that means if you are born into the caste, you can never change, that is your role for life (if you wish to follow correct theology). To the New Hrestoli of Loskalm, that means you are Menena as long as you do the job - become pregnant, you are part of the Menena caste, but otherwise, women have caste mobility just as men do. Quite possibly men who choose full time child care are Menena caste as well.

I got my copy of the Cults of Glorantha preview in the mail yesterday. Jeff helpfully personally certified with a sharpie that it contained no Invisible God. He is wrong, of course. The Invisible God is in everything. Though also beyond everything.

Good question. You'll get different answers depending on who you ask. When the world is full of murderous killers, if it useful to have one on your side, would be roughly the Raibanth/Imperial point of view. Like most of the 'sons of Yelm', he is clearly not a contender for the pure power of Fire, but expresses a different aspect of the celestial power. I think he is referred to as a 'Sun' only in the sense that he briefly was the controlling power of the Sky Dome (when the Sun was in hell, and Shargash had cleared out most of other bodies) and there is often some ambiguity about planets being implicitly small suns in sources around that era. But yes, Tolat is Shargash in the God Learner sense, and I don't think they are wrong about that one. The new book acknowledges this explicitly.

I got my copy of the Gencon preview yesterday. Haven't had time to look in detail, but I did glance at the IO writeup. Rules wise, very much what you'd expect - a mixture of LM and some 7M magic, and replacing Torvalds Fragments with Lunar sorcery (that mostly covers similar ground, though with a fair bit of Buserian celestiology). If you go for LM with Mindlast and Madness you aren't far off. Culturally, the interesting thing to note is how much IO in usual heartland practice is essentially the Lunarisation of the existing Buserian bureaucracy. I think it is increasing clear that at least sorcerous grimoires are often hard to copy magical objects in their own right (right back to Zzabur binding books in the skin of his enemies, as noted recently in another thread in some cases recorded as the still living skins of his enemies, but including Arkati tomes bound in iron, the Abiding Book, Impossible Landscapes, etc), and it may not be so easy to simply copy some of them. And same goes for mystic texts I think. Such magic tomes may somehow unlock particular secrets of the text. And even the non magical ones may be very hard to copy - requiring sophisticated and exact colours, for example, or extremely complex diagrams that are hard to understand for non-experts and so incredibly hard to copy if you are not already a master of the content. Also, with reference to the Kralorela thread in which we mentioned Journey to the West, it is worth mentioning that even the historical story it was based on was still a 17 year quest to retrieve important texts, add the high fantasy elements and you have one of the classics of Chinese civilisation being a huge fantasy epic about question for a book. Book quests are a big deal. Oh yes. But did it make it back amid the chaos of Wolf Pirate attack, even if it did, did it end up back in general circulation or do you need to intrigue the right Purple Sage (or Black Sage who intercepted it), etc. Plenty of potential game fun.

I am pretty sure Gunda is an accomplished sorcerer as well. I don't think Harrek is a sorcerer or notably literate, but he sure is an accomplished and sophisticated magician and heroquester. I'm pretty sure he is Illuminated and knows a lot more about advanced mysticism than he lets on. So he may not be reading those books himself, but I'm sure he is paying attention to their contents. Of course, in an adventuring context, it is never good to be interested in the same things as Harrek.

I was speaking from a Dara Happan perspective. Regardless of Chaos fighting, they do not consider most Darkness folk sane. Better than the Cruel God, who is the opposite of Justice (and a direct threat to it), but of course a crazy Darkness worshipper is far worse than Shargash worshipper, they may be crazy maniacs but they are crazy maniacs on the right side (unless you are from Darjiin). Depends how direct you think lay worship is. Semantic quibble. You clearly are not in the correct Dara Happan mindset, Joerg. Who cares what the lower classes know or think? The whole story of the death of Yelm and his disintegration into parts, that are eventually re-united at the Dawn is known far outside the Yelm initiates. It is certainly known to the parts of Yelm cults, like Enverinus and Antirius, both of which allow non-nobles to initiate I am fairly sure. Many craftsmen are in the Enverinus cult. Knowing the story is very different to magically experiencing being the Sun - and we have no indication the story (or most of GROY) is a secret. Technically legitimate in some ways, technically illegitimate in others, certainly unlikely to be popular. But magically valid, as yes, Yu-Kargzant is Yelm. There is a lot more detail I could say here about the Yelm Imperator status within the Yelm cult, restricted to legitimate rulers and tightly controlled by the state (who now require Yelm Imperator initiates to be Red Goddess Initiates as well) - but it would really just be talking about the politicisation of the cult, I think, and a potential 'Jenarong' Emperor could reinstate it.

On the Spirit Rune - the exact relationships of the Runes on a character sheet is a game abstraction, expressed in Gloranthan terms. So Runes in one game don't exactly correspond to their use in another. And in general, HeroQuest works at a higher level of abstraction. A single ability in HeroQuest may be represented as a cluster of related abilities in RuneQuest. A high Rune rating in HeroQuest is not the same as a high Rune Rating in RuneQuest - one difference between the two is a character with a high HeroQuest Rune ability would imply that in RuneQuest he had a high Rune %age, but also Rune Points with god related to that Rune and spirit magic related to that element. And Runes in one do not always correspond to Runes in the other (and of course also when comparing either to 13th Age). And IMO the Spirit rune in HeroQuest correspond mostly to the level of the various skills and spirit magic spells with Spirit in the name in RQG - and after a certain level (around 11 Mastery) it also becomes also about the power of your Fetch, Rune Points wth a shamanic tradition, etc. Its not just this abstraction issue though - literally the philosophic meaning of abiities differs between the games. In HQ, a rune is your ability to solve a problem, RQ has a far more simulationist method.

In the standard campaign time frame, the Library of the City of Wonders has already been looted and destroyed by Harrek and his Wolf Pirates. Recapturing a vital resource that was known to have been in the Library and is now known to be in the possession of a Wolf Pirate would be an excellent adventure for a Sage and his companions to be involved in.

On Yelm and the little Yelms.. To the Dara Happans, the sun disk vs the Sun isn't an issue - during the Darkness there was no sun disk, and some parts of the sun were given separate worship. The part that remained on Earth fell into doubt. The Dara Happans know that Antirius was also the true Justice, but they acknowledge that others (Kargzant, Elmal, Shargash, etc) various contested to take his place by usurping the place of the true Emperor. At the Dawn they combined, and the True Antirius part resumed his rightful place. Yelm is real and the sun disk again (but worshipped directly only by the elite), and you can also worship his parts separately as appropriate to who you are (Antirius for Justice, Enverinus as the sacrificial fire god, BernEel Arashagern as the husband god of Dendara, etc - of course, no one sane worships KazKurtum or the Black Sun but they are acknowledged in certain ceremonies), and you are still worshipping Yelm appropriately. It all makes perfect sense. At the Sunstop these contradictions were truly resolved, the Sun became perfect again, Yelm demonstrates his power to resolve the Many into the One, and everything is fine. The normal folk of Dara Happa believe Antirius is the Justice of Yelm, the Illuminates can believe all the little Suns are the same part of Yelm. The great mystics (including the Red Goddess, Nysalor, Sheng etc) all know that by emphasising different forms of the little Sun, you can change the nature of Yelm - and all of them attempt to do so - but for most people that is far above their pay grade to worry about such things. Yelmalio vs Elmal, to the Dara Happans, who of course believe they understand Yelm best, is just different forms of error. The Yelmalio cult is barbarians misunderstanding the finer points of theology - they confuse being a part of Yelm with being a son of Yelm - but it is close enough to true for barbarians, and they are loyal. The Pentans are more deluded - Kargzant was proven to be unjust and no longer a part of Yelm during the Dominion of Kargzant. The Orlanthi are the most deluded of all - they were able to confuse Antirius and learn how to steal some of this power when he was weak and wounded in the Darkness, but now they confuse the part with the whole still, they live in the past with stolen power. Anyway, that is my Dara Happan take on the debate, they should know, right?

One is an aspect of the other. You literally just made up rape and murder squads against random citizenry in order to keep building that false equivalence. Just stop. I took is straight out of Greg's Greya story, it rather stuck in the mind as an example of what life under Sheng was like. I really dislike the style of reasoning that goes 'we have first hand accounts from the victims, but where is the credible evidence?' (noting the Greya story is, as you noted, one of the rare in print examples of Greg writing from a first person point of view). Oh, it does. Sheng wants to return Dara Happa to the Jenarong era, raze their civilisation and return to the nomad era, and under more than a millenium of what he sees as mistakes. He thinks that is a perfectly reasonable goal well worth the deaths of millions - which is clearly monstrous. I agree on the 'loss of sanity'. The gestalt entity that is the Red Emperor goes from a relatively stable guide to the Empire, to a contested and fractured unstable version, often seeming quite dysfunctional. I think it likely that Sheng, likewise, regards himself as reforming the Kralorelan system and returning to a purer version, as he does Peloria. I'm not quite sure how that works though. Does he reject Darudism and want to return to the ancient Solar Empire? I do think he thinks the Summer Land Heaven is a failure or gross mistake - it gives up on true spiritual advancement after death, while consigning the souls of the unworthy to torture in hell is, ultimately in his thinking, far more compassionate as it gives them the opportunity for spiritual purification. And suffering is just the illusionary mortal world. Sheng, in his version of the story, is not simply a mystic who failed at the last stop, he will be (once he conquers the world and is able to have his reign of harsh torture and slavery) the greatest boddhisvatva of all, because he is not blinded by 'compassion' (whether or not this theology is valid, or Sheng is just a deluded sado-masochist justifying his spiritual failure, is something that may be best left undefined). Sheng believes the Kralorelan hells are ultimately a good thing.

It is quite specific that the *leaders* of the province benefit, not the people of the province. The 'angelic' is you strictly you extrapolating in a direction I think undeserved - I think rather, such leaders are inducted into the ranks of the Warmed etc, and Sheng shows them that he is able to perform great deeds of various kinds (generally of a great failed mystic and Solar hero). Compassionate to the general populace is not even implied.

Somewhat, yes and yes. Generally many secrets will be right there on the shelf, and so can be found easily as long as you can find it using the index, have access to the library, can read the language it is written in, and so on. Some others will not be where they should be, due to being moved to somewhere not obvious, such as a sages private office, a hidden location, the archives controlled by a particular faction, etc. Some secrets are devotees only, and some are cult secrets (usually only a specific cult secret like the Elasa script, Torvalds Fragments, etc. Definitely some can be bought at a price, sometimes in cash sometimes in kind. Basically, most of the time as a GM you can decide without fear it will be contradicted. Only a few secrets require Illumination to understand, and only some God Learner secrets (if you really care, grab the Middle Sea Empire book from the Stafford Library, and compare Makanism and Malkioneranism, and learn about the real dangers of magical enchanted books). Other secrets only require Illumination if you want it too. Arkati and Lunar Grimoires are both likely to require Illumination to comprehend. Literally all the above are obstacles if you are messing with truly forbidden secrets. But there are plenty of secrets that are more of a grey areas, such as dragon magic. And Argrath is interested in all sorts of forbidden magic, such as EWF secrets. Of course, it is worth remembering that in Lunar occupied areas such as Tarsh, there will be Irripi Ontor sages in the library as well, who are much more likely to be Illuminated.

The Vadeli stand ever ready to sell you important magical things at a slightly questionable price.

You are technically correct, the best kind of correct.

They don’t. They will teach literacy to lay members (eg practically anyone not a cult enemy). They are not the only literate people in Orlanthi society. They do keep the secret of the Elasa script, but that is magical, not used for normal writing. Sharing normal literacy, no. Sharing secrets of the cult, like Elasa script, cult sorcery, etc might attract the spirit of reprisal, the Brain Flayer - but if they repent, they can usually reverse the Brain Flayers effects of the complete a quest to gain new knowledge for the cult. They spend years on it, and usually fail. If the temple is highly factionalised, like Nochet, they may find other factions are trying to index the temple differently, simultanously, effectively working against it. Everyone thinks indexing is great in theory, they just all think they should be the ones to do it. Many sages, especially tribal ones, are more likely to use vellum/parchment rather than paper. I think reeds for papyrus would be available many places. They also mark clay or mark wood. Ink is probably the commodity needed most, especially colored inks can come from many sources but good ink is often rare and valuable - some sources may be vegetable (oak gall ink was the standard through most of the medieval era. Writing on long rolls might be more common than traditional book binding too. Items such as fine quills, or fine styluses, might be in demand. In China at least, ornamental ink stones were a thing.