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A sign of the times. Sort of like Jurassic Park. Back then people were so keen on trying to see if they could do something up for an RPG that they didn't really worry about if they should do it up for an RPG. Techno, undead elves, PCs who could be giants, lycanthopes or part dragon as part of class special tables....

Another way to do "Hero Points" that would not get out of hand. Easy, each point costs a skill check. Paid at the end of the adventure. So if someone wants to use 5 or 6 points they have to uncheck 5 or 6 boxes at the end of the night. For frogspawner, The use affect after the hit is good with limited points. Basically the PCs will only use them when they count. What a couple of games have done is force the PC to justify the effect. Things like hitting a cigarette case, or a graze or whatever. If you want the PCs to use the effect before the hit, then the PCs will need more points to allow for the ones that will be "wasted" on misses. You can still use option #2 or the new option #3 before the roll.

It really isn't that difficult. Human beings all move within a certain speed range, and it's not hard to comeup with something that works in that range. I mean, it isn't any more complex than the factors involved in sword fighting, or archery, and we run those off all the time. The MOVE 10 is almost right for m/sec for an person sprinting over a short distance. Probably just right for combat. But, to get new things, like cars and planes working on the same scale as as everything else, we need to see what the MOVE rates are for various creatures, and how far a character is allowed to move in a round.

Exactly. I just wasn't sure if you were aware of that, or thought that they were similar. That is one reason why there is speculation over how much input Dave Hargrave had over the Complete RPG. It is very different from D&D. It is possible that he went into a different direction, but it is also possible that the RPG has little to do with his own games.

Since Dave HArgrave passed away 20 years ago, there is no telling what direction they might go in. Pershaps update the "complete" book, perhaps go in a differernt direction. BTW, some of the tings that Complete is missing are in the old 3 book set, but the two sets of books don't quite match up. The classes in the old books are more powerful, overall. I'll see if I can dig something up on them.

THe difficult lies in the "Batman scenario" I mentioned earlier. Left strictly to the dice, a hero will get overwhelmed by numbers. That is pretty much the way BRP was meant to work. That's why Rune Lords were told to bring a retinue and avoid double teams. A Luck/Fate echanic seems to fix this for heroic characters, provided that the points are limited. Too many and the PCs get delusions of godhood. Ideally they should have just enough to do what they need to do, even slightly more, but feel like they don't quite have enough. Sort of like gambling. The points have to be common enough to be on hand, yet rare enough so that the players will hate spending them. There are three or four options in the book. I've got a couple of "blind" suggestions: 1) The PC needs to make a luck roll and then can mark off damage against his Magic/Luck/Power Points. If a PC is out of points, he is out of Luck. This gives character some immunity but is very limited. 2) Give players points for criticals and/or special successes. Then they can spend those point later to bump or downgrade rolls by 1 success level. So in the "Batman scenario" if "Bats" has a couple of points in the bank, he could turn the odd lucky hit into a miss, or change a critical that would kill him to a normal hit.

I read them all. The little books were mostly things like new character classes, monsters, lots of critical and special ability tables, spells, magic items, and the like. The problem with the books were that they weren't really a game system, more like a bunch of ideas and options that could be fitted into a D&D game. That was the game's major problem. Lots of adds ons, but nothing that they added to. The "Complete" Ardiun was a system, but not very complete. You couldn't quite add the three books (maybe there were 4) to it either, as the numbers weren't quite compatible.

THis one is for those with a copy of the game. What are the MOVE rates in BRO, and how does that relate to the distance a character can cover in a melee round? I read that Humans have MOVE 10, Horse MOVE 12, but do they give a MOve rate for a vehicle? Just wondering so I can get the vehicle Move rate in line with the character rates.

Zan raises a couple of good points. First off only those who are familiar with Chaosium and BRP are going to know enough to go looking for stuff. Everyone else will need to see the product somehow to be exposed. And yeah, if Chaoosium and BRP are to thrive, the need some new customers. Ultimately, as Mongoose has proven, it doesn't really matter from a business standpoint, just who buys you products, or even what they do with them, just as long as the products keep selling. If someone decides to wallpaper a room with pages from BRP and buys 20 copies, that's 20 sales.

I need to print that on a T-shirt. I think the thing with FATE points and with the multi-genre nature of the new BRP is that we end up needing the options to tweak the BPR rules enough to make them work. For example, if you run a BRP supers campaign, you need a way to tone down the inherent lethality of the BPR rules or after the first advenutre half the PCs will be dead and the rest wanted for manslaughter. Even a "Street-level" supers campaign needs a little tweaking. In BRP if a half dozen thugs open fire on someone like the Batman, we are probably going to be short one superhero. Ganging up is very effective in BRP, and one or two bullets could drop the caped crusader (with a an 18 CON and at 210lbs/SIZ 15, Brucvie has 17 hp). IN BRP the laws of probability will result in the eventual impale or worse a critical hit and one dead hero. Fairly quickly, too. That doesn't happen in the comics, not in over 65 years. So to run that sort of game we need a tweak that will help us simulate that kind of reality. Something like FATE points is certainly an option. Same with most of you figures in heroic fantasy. With all the fighting, someone would have rolled an 01 against Conan and killed him. Firearms sort of aggravate the problem, too, since the normal defenses aren't as effective. Maybe BRP will change the dodge rules. As it stands, Batman can't dodge a dozen bullets. So most the attacks are uncontested. BRP was really designed around the melee fight and the attack/parry mechanic. Without some sort of active defense against missile attacks we'll have problems.

Thanks cat. I have the hardcopy somewhere, but PDFs are nice for look through. Keep in mind though that the Complete Arduin is actually quite different from the original RPG. It came out a few years after the original books. The first books were D&D based, sort of a uberpowerful D&D.

:focus: Sounds good. We sort of got sidetracked (my fault, I used the Western stuff for an example).

It would be sort of embarrassing if the official version hits the shelves before the pre-release copies arrive. Especially since you're in the UK!

Spirit of the Century. It is a pulp "pickup" RPG, based on the FATE system. SotC is published by evilhat and available for purchase at several places, especially the evil hat website. Evil Hat Productions » About Evil Hat But.... Before purchasing anything you can check out both FATE and SotC by going to the fate.com site and downloading the free FATE and SotC PDFs. The link is FateRPG.Com: Fate: Fantastic Adventures in Tabletop Entertainment FATE and SotC has a much more abstract nature than BRP. IMO I think it would handle Gloratha better than HeroQuest.

I think I'm with Nick on this. Unless Chaosium gets some BRP stuff out there for people to play, the system's value as an IP is somewhat moot anyway. Settings and adventures really are the lifeblood of RPGs. Much as I dislike the MRQ system, I have to give Mongoose credit for getting a lot of MRQ product out in the stores. The quality isn't always high, but there is product. For BRP to be successful, Chaosium will need to get a half dozen or so settings out to support it. Then an adventure pack or two. Fortunately, it looks like we have 4 settings in the works, and a few unofficial ones floating around here.

Pretty much. Ideally the GM can "dial up" whatever level of realism or pulpiness, or TV or film to suit his desires. That's why I did up most of the Western stuff as options. For instance, historically the Quick Draw was pretty much a non issue. Hip shooters and fan-firers actually do tend to shot first, but don't hit anything. It's the ability to act calmly and take the time for a good shot, while in a fight, that spelled the difference between joe average and a successful gunfighter. But the genre stresses the quick draw. So it's in there. Likewise gun-spinning has no real place in a fight. It looks fancy, but will get you killed. The rifle reload thing might have some use, as would a border shift, but mostly it is just a good way to shoot yourself or an innocent bystander with your own gun. But its part of the TV and film Westerns up to the 1960s. Yeah. But I don't think BRP is going to lean towards pulp. If I wanted to do a pulpy western, I'd probably go with Spirit of the Century. It's got about 90% of what is needed already, and the few things it is missing could be worked up pretty quickly. Well yeah, the people he was fighting weren't white. THe pulps were rather racist. Not so much by conviction, just because any outsider makes for a good villain. BTW, there is a distinction between Pulp, Film, and TV Westerns. Some overlap, too. So many of the "rules of the genre" depend on what version of the West you are going after. The "Wild West" suffered in part because it was being fictionalized before it's demise. Much of the real West was obscured by the legend.

The story, according to Greg Stafford.... I found Greg's story at Q&A with Greg Stafford

The films and TV series had differernt "kicks". The film was about Apes and men reversing roles, and then tossing a "normal" human into the mix. The TV series was about an oppressive ape culture enslaving men. Personally, I prefer the films. More interesting and original. For all practical purposes the role filled by Apes in the TV series could have been filled by humans or anything else. It really not much different than Rome or the American South prior to the Civil War, but with monkey masks. Basically it is the sort of topic that Star Trek used to visit several times a season. Of course it all depends on what sort of campaign you want to run. Is it for the PC heroes to escape and carve out a place for themselves, fine a way home, or to bring about the overthrow of the oppressors? Something like the Apes overthrowing the humans from the 4th film, or even a Ape-Human alliance in a post apocalyptic world similar to the 5th film could be interesting settings too.

I can probably dig up the quote somewhere. I think it does have a quote from him as well. I didn't say he was indignant. Just that he hated it. Which if I recall correctly was in the quote. Just about everything. Remember the game was not the sort of style that he prefers. It was, if I recall correctly, an AD&D variant. That is a far cry from the other RPGs that Pondsmith has written. Persoanlly, I'd like to know what you like about it? You are the first person I've encountered with something nice to say about it. From what I saw the setting wasn't true to the source material either. What was the good stuff that I missed?

Nightshade, Well, the point with firaems is that they do come with tradeoffs. It is just those tradeoffs haven't been addressed in BRP much. Mostly becuase, as we've mentioned before, firearms have always been something of an afterthought to the games that have them. Superworld is a suerpheor RPG, Furture Wolrd was a high tech setting, and CoC isn't about gunfights as it is about unspeakable horror. But other stats would help, and would be useful in a setting where firearms are a major factor in the combat. I could image CON and DRAW being very important stats for an espionage setting. I'll agree that a lot of RPGs just have people grabbing the biggest damage dooers and marching on. D20 is a prime example. But in most cases that is because those RPGs focus on lots of fighting and tend to deemphasize everything other than damage. For instance in D&D, where characters can have 50-100 hit points, getting in the first shot with a pistol that does 2d6 isn't that important. Liekse, given the nature of most D20 games, being cvaught with a conceal weapon doesn't come up much. But in a less combat oriented campaign, it would be important. A pocket pistol that is fairly useless in a battle can be a lifesaver around the card table. Especially if the other people don't know that you've got it. As for blades. Most of the players I've seen tended to go with the broadsword. Those who didn't mind loosing a shield went with the greatsword. The STR min was rarely an issue. Especially since RQ yets you get around the minimums with a penalty. So most players would take a slight penalty to use the broadsword. The shortsword was popular with two weapon users, and the bastard sword was probably my personal favorite, although it didn't catch on with most other players. The scimitar and rapier did get used in my groups. The kurkri never did, as it was a bit to culture specific. Realsitically if the saber and such got a bonus from horseback, like they should, they'd have gotten more use with mounted characters. Probably the best way to try and please everybody is to do up the stats, and then take some default weapons to be the standard pistol, rifle etc. That way those who want it have the details, and those who don't have generic weapons. For instance, in a late western era, where the "Peacemaker" was the most popular pistol it makes sense to have it as the default pistol stats. Ditto for the Winchester rifle. Add in a pocket pistol/derringer, big game rifle, and a shotgun and you got enough for generic weapons. For those who want the extra details, like a "frontier" instead of a "Peacemaker" to match the ammo of the Winchester, or those who want a Schofield for faster reloading time, it can still be there.

Depends on how puply you want to make it. Plus there is the fact that most wild animals are no real threat. In an RPG you can only have the hero run out of ammo, drop his gun down a crevass, and such a handful of times before the players have had enough. I'm also more into running animals and foes a bit more realstically. That is, I don't run them as kamakzi squads. So after a player shoots a coyote or two the rest should probably scatter. But I'd also say that running a western game, the weapons would be just as important. Quite a few stories about someone having a seven shooter. Plus around the 1850s the differences between differnt designs were much more radical than is the case today. For instance, today most military pistols are 9mm self loads, with some .45 self loads. In general the round fired determines most of the characteristics of the weapon that fires it. So, since most military pistols are chambered for similar ammo, and with the same expectations, so most details are similar. Go back to the Old West and such was not the case. Most of the major innovations in the field were under patent. Military Pistols ranged from single shot muzzle loaders, to cap & ball revolvers, to pinfire revolvers, to paper catriges revolvers, to metallic cartridge revolvers. Plus a few more, all availaibe at the same time. Parts were not interchangable, either. Many revolvers were sold with a spare cylinder so the weapon could be "reloaded" by changing the cylinder in a battle. Relaoding most weapons was a slow, time consuming process. Now run one of those "band of injuns attack the settlers" type western stories and see how the characterstics of the firearms would make a big difference. Prior to the 1870s or so the settlers are going to have a hard time keeping enough weapons loaded to fend off those "injuns". If it is 1875 or so, and the settlers have Winchester rifles, and a colt "peacemaker" or better yet a Smith & Wesson American reloading will be a breeze and the fight more one sided. In fact, if you look at the expansion into the west, you will see that it was technology that tamed the Old West. Between the railroads, telegraph, and firearms, order was established. Custer probably wound have won at Little Bighorn if he had waited for his gatling guns.

Well first off, most current version of BRP give Humans a 2D6+6 roll for INT and SIZ. So the 3D6 for all stats hasn't been normal since 1982 or so. To understand human Herdmen, they have the same stats as humans but are reduced to animal intelleigence. IN RQ2 INT wasn't tracked for animals. In RQ3, Huuman INT was a 2D6+6 range. Any intelligent creatures got a rolled INT score while those animal intellegence had a "Fixed" INT score. For instance a dog would have a fixed INT of 5, while a Hawk could have a fixed INT of 3. So while one dog might be smarter than another, any dog was considered smarter than any hawk.Herdmen would have fixed INT rather than rolled. And if a normal man got turned into a herdman, his INT would become fixed.

They don't seem to be able to manhandle the humans though. BTW, Are you thinking 3D6 with humans as 3D6 or 3D6 with humans 2D6+6?

I agree. I'm thinking something along the lines of trading off INT for STR. So: Chimpanzees INT 2D6+5, STR 3D6+1 Orangutans INT 2D+4, STR 3D6+2 Gorrilas INT 2D6+3, STR 3D6+3