Joerg

Greya's Story is simply a source that hasn't been published. I heard the story once, more than 20 years ago, from a distance, with Greg being hoarse as hell from three days of Convulsion. I didn't remember the name of the narrator. Greya's story may be a key source, but it is one that is unavailable to the Gloranthan public. As is Ten Women Well Loved, and as are all of the other pieces of Gloranthan character prose Greg ever wrote, except for that Aftal fragment which was published as part of Missing Lands (in itself an item of unattainable rarity, and apart for Aftal's story and a few pieces of interest for the development history of Glorantha with little material that wasn't reprinted or expanded in the Guide). If you own a copy, good for you. Treasure it like I treasure my copy of Hrestol's Saga. But neither is broadly available reading. What do you make of this judgement of Sheng's occupation in the history of the Fifth Wane (Sourcebook p.175) In Lunar memory, the people of Saird suffered more at the hands of the raiders from Tarsh than the farmers occupied by the subchiefs who regularly would cull villages for slaves to sell (to whom?) and who would graze their horses on rich barley fields (which apparently continued to be tilled).

I stumbled a bit reading this, thinking first of the temple in Boldhome that was built under Sartar the founder. Sun Dome County centered on Vanntar has this inside/outside of Sartar switch, but I suppose that Monrogh's construction on the site of Palangio's Bright Empire temple is what Jeff is referring to here.

Tattooing ink would be yet another form of transfering the pigment into a skin. I have no idea whether pulverized indigo could be massaged into cuts and remain inside. Woad applied as a pasty skin paint has adstringent qualities (reducing blood loss from shallow cuts), but these qualities might prevent the pigment from nesting into the fatty surfaces of living cells. Applying the textile mordant as ink won't work as the reduced form is soluble in body fluids, and subcutaneous oxygen supply isn't sufficient to return it into the colored form. The ink based on the mordant would be diluted and carried away. But all of this is real world chemistry. Another thing about Orlanthi tattoos that I don't know is how exactly these are earned, and added to. Looking at Argrath's initiation story in Prince of Sartar, we don't see anyone with a needle and ink approaching Argrath. Instead, the magical energies manifested on his Other Side experience remain behind as blue markings on his skin. But all of that is Argrath's subjective experience of his initiation. The mundane world part is last seen when his clan members enter his sleeping chambers bearing (rather crude) masks representing the Evil Uncles. It is quite possible that the prone body of the initiand receives the care of the clan's ink-master, following the energies the initiand manifests during his subjective experiences on the Other Side. But then, such a "netrunner" experience of the Other Side goes contrary to how I would imagine Gloranthan heroquesting, and it isn't compatible at all with the description of Ingolf's initiation in King of Sartar, commented on in History of the Heortling Peoples p.51. (No idea whether the page numbers there reference the old softcover edition or the new hardcover. I suspect the softcover.)

Your character will be subjected to the Praxian Sacred Time ceremonies (which may be an unpleasant experience) and help strengthen the captors' magic for that year. As she lives adjacent to these Praxians, the benefits to the land may be similar. She personally will be missing out (possibly on a POW gain role, in rules terms). I don't think that participating in someone else's Sacred Time rites increases your chances to experience a chaos attack unless those rites were of a chaotic nature. But then, Raus's rites might have some inadvertent Chaos in them from his Lunar connections.

The use of woad by the Orlanthi has been canonical since Cults of Prax - although first and foremost as (magically charged) skin paint. But use as a textile or leather dye is more or less inevitable at that point. Woad (aka Isatis tinctoria) will be one of the non-food plants necessarily cultivated by the Orlanthi, along with flax (for linen). Both woad and flax fibre requires a process of fermentation in its production. (Flax seeds for oil or varnish are more straightforward.) The blue pigment in woad is chemically identical to the main component of indigo, but the extraction and reduction process used to transfer the pigment from the plant to the textile gives less stable adhesion of that molecule (in the real world). (Indigo gives a deeper tone of blue also because it contains a number of similar pigments with slightly different light absorption - the first synthetic indigo was better than woad in its durability on the textile, but no better in terms of the deepness of color.) Everybody knows the pigment won from indigo - blue jeans are known world-wide. It may be less common knowledge that this pigment is applied to a textile through a process of reduction (resulting in a colorless milk) which then is oxidized on the fibres after the textile (or raw leather surface) has been soaked in the liquid. The air prerequisite as the mordant's helper makes woad a very appropriate dye for air worshipers. Applying the pigment to skin or treated leather probably doesn't use this method, but mixes the pigment with some fatty or waxy substance which is then massaged onto the skin or hide. As long as the coating remains on the skin or hide the blue pigment can work its magic.

Sedenya taking the shape of a bat - that's new to me. A nice idea, though. as far as I know, Annilla is allied with the bat goddess of the Blue Moon plateau, but it is a separate entity. Jar-eel's Liberation quest for Beat-Pot shows Verithurusa and Artia (or whatever name the Bat would have in her cultural context) as separate entities. It also shows Tolat's involvement in the rebellion. (Somehow no Dara Happan finds the moral fortitude to point out Shargash's involvement... other than claiming Yelm's greater purpose for Shargash the Destroyer in the Greater Darkness. But if Yelm's destruction was a cosmological necessity like the subsequent destruction of the world by Shargash, why blame the other sword rebel?) Most of that Blue Moon stuff has only been published in Drastic: Darkness, which used much of Greg's material available at the time, but wasn't official. Still, the troll-bats were MGF created by Greg, and used in a memorable improvised Hero Wars scenario that is among my most treasured Glorantha memories. Blue Sun of the Green Age: another interpretation not really funded in published material. There was a White Sun prior to Brightface's usurpation, mentioned (very much in passing) in the Entekosiad which then turns to the Naveria story rather than exploring this bit further. I am convinced that the White Sun followed a Day-Night cycle, not necessarily by traversing the Sun Path though. Verithurus being sent to Hell in the invasion of Umath is recorded in the Copper Tablets in the Guide and the Orlanthi take on that story in Heortling Mythology. The latest edition of Glorious ReAscent of Yelm has another slightly different take on that. What happened to Verithurusa after Umath had been sent to Hell is undocumented, although The Lives of Sedenya suggests she met him there and had a child from that encounter that turned her red (as the event did to her brother Alkor). Verithurus re-appears as Guardian of Mernita with Blue Lesilla as his provider (i.e. wife) under Anaxial, putting both the Red and the Blue Moon into a single package. Brightface's new order did remove women from all positions of power over men. Calling this a specific enslavement of just the women is a feminist point of view - he "enslaved" the entire world, including the Earth Walkers, and would have claimed the new-born Storm as well if Umath hadn't disrupted his perfect moment in time by dislocating the heavens frozen in eternal day.

Checking the Guide for this (and discovering a typo in the caption of the map of Sheng Seleris' empire, where the sub-chapter paragraph covers a hidden (but searchable) instance of Sheng), there is the factual description of Sheng depopulating Puchai on p. 264. Which is a terrible terror tactic, precedented only by Alkoth in the Darkness, and by Parg Ilisi. The Battle of All Widows After A Week leaves the losing side in the same situation as the outcome of Argentium Thri'ile. This is what is done to the losing side of a decisive battle, in Pentan history. (Also compare Alavan Argay.) I wonder why you don't pick up on this paragraph (Guide p.268f: Sure, it doesn't excuse his later atrocities in Kralorela. But it does paint a very different picture of his motivations. (Another aside on the Guide: one of its strengths is that the factual information in there is written in the voice of the current culture dominating a region. How else is this sentence to be interpreted? P.267 "The rule of the barbarians ended in 1460 when Godunya invoked the Potential Curse he had hidden in 1363. Sheng Seleris was torn apart by his own barbarians." Describing the Lunar Empire as "his own barbarians" is not exactly wrong, but... The Char-un conquest of Erigia remains uncommented as the victims weren't human but plants. Parg Ilisi's atrocities against Eol required the Emperor to disown the practices for fear of general uprising in all of his satrapies. It was worse than anything the Carmanian Bull Shah doctrine had inflicted on places like Rinliddi. The conquest of Sylila and the Provinces was done avoiding Dara Happan involvement, and the Dara Happans greatly resent that course of action. Likewise the subversion of Tarsh. Both the Eel-Ariash and the ruling dynasties of Sylila (the houses may change, but the objective of retaining control over the Provinces remains) stand for policies the Dara Happans are disgusted at. Yes, the Dara Happans have a history in their fight against the EWF after liberation from the Sun Dragon Emperor that saw Saird under the temporary influence of their civilisation, but - perhaps because of the Carmanian mother? - the Sairdite experiment just showed once more that nothing good ever comes from that den of rebellion and sedition, and good riddance after the Dragonkill disaster. The Dara Happans have a deeply rooted desire to destroy the rebels for good, but their hands are bound. Still, they plot to do as much "good" in eliminating the rebels as they can, spearheaded by Tatius, and if it means to turn their lands into a wasteland like after the Dragonkill, fine - just don't have your leaders killed in it this time. Some forces in the Lunar Empire wish to conquer Sartar and make it a profitable pacified province. Factions like the Eel-Ariash and their royal Tarshite branch. The Sylilite clan rivaling the Eel-Ariash for control of the Provinces wouldn't mind a new profitable province as long as it doesn't fall under Tarshite control, but for the time being, they are happy to join forces with the Yuthuppan-led efforts to turn Sartar into a depopulated wasteland. Because that is what the Dara Happans desire from the conquest of Sartar - an end of all these rebel creatures for good. Annihilation is too good for them. Tatius is their champion, and Tatius takes enjoyment and pleasure from the atrocities his activities inflict on the rebels in repayment for millennia of humiliation. Once his new Reaching Moon temple is up and running, he will find the leisure to indulge in more hands-on forms of degradation and destruction. Yes, the paragraph above is propaganda. It contains mostly truth, only the motives of Tatius are conjecture. In every bit as much conjecture as your motives ascribed to Sheng. Quoting this out of sequence here to illustrate how you mix fact - "we know he destroys the farms", reasonable conjecture "and doesn't care..." and spin doctoring "possibly ... he really enjoys it though".ci I admit that your interpretation is the standard interpretation, and Sheng's activities and track record give enough fodder for such an interpretation of the written history. Speculation on his motivations and ignoring his visible steps at actual empire-building towards creating an utopian nomad-ruled solar empire are consistently downplayed or ignored by you, or presented as a pure dystopia. Sheng integrates the Tripolis into his empire, and brings bureaucrats from Kralorela trained in supporting his demands. And he also transplants useful Dara Happan urbanites to Kralorela to create positive (and lasting) change in that hidebound culture. He cultivates what he likes best in both urban civilizations and has plans to develop both towards his ideal civilization. His disciples also bring him the reports on the city of (Old) Pavis, the ideal urban site for a horse nomad ruler (never mind the stripes). The dynasty build by Joraz Khyrem shows some of the finest achievements urban horse nomad culture can bring, and artifacts from those ruins still are valued highly. Sheng agrees with the aldryami that there is a too big population of farmers hurting and exploiting the sacred Earth in Peloria. Their main difference is that Sheng wants grasslands where the aldryami want forest. And given their past experience with the Char-un and the Moonburn of Rist, the aldryami probably won't be inclined to settle for a horse-friendly Taiga. I would assume that Sheng's original impression of agriculture was learned in visits to Ignorance. Massive blood rites to power the growth of the fields (it's where Hon-eel would get the maize magics from). It is quite likely that Sheng assumes that all agricultural magic works like that. Coloring the river red with blood might even be his way to imitate those fertility rites for fertile pastures in Puchai. I disagree. It is no comparison because history is written by the victors. The Lunar Empire is the result of a Mahdi uprising bringing weapons of mass destruction into a fight with regular armies. The fall-out in Tork and the strengthening of Dorastor with the influx of the grayskins remains. The Night of Horrors produced a new level of terror, outdoing even the First Battle of Chaos. Kralorela has an evil underbelly as well, and the Eastern way is to accept that as part of the whole where it doesn't obstruct advancement of transcendence into the light. Thus, Huan-to and Sekever with his transcendence into the dark are considered foes, but local expressions of the dark can just be contained and don't require removal. Kralorela is way more refined than the Lunar Empire in that way, and one reason for Sheng to bring Lunar overseers to Kralorela might be to reduce the un-necessary levels of refinement towards a more efficient administration of his assets. Calling the Crimson Bat to descend on Runegate after the Zombie onslaught didn't quite work in 1602 is the comparable terror warfare. In a single act of war, the Lunar Empire annihilated (not just killed) about a percent of the total population of Sartar in a day. And still the Sartarites didn't learn the lesson. There was a dragon that eliminated the Bat, otherwise the entire urban population of Sartar might have been annihilated over the course of the conquest. The Crimson Bat is very much a neutron bomb-like assault, leaving treasures and valuable stuff behind, satisfied with annhiliating the souls of its victims. Yes, and unapologetically so. "It was a regretful necessity" is what you get from perpretators and incitors of such atrocities. Like e.g. President Jackson or General Custer. I disagree with your portrayal of his motivation. Yes, he desires to transform their civilisation, and that transformed civilisation doesn't have a place for what he regards as useless parasites of society. But then he had tried the inclusive approach, in Boshan, and it had been used against him and the supporters he had gained from that. Pages 104-114 of The Eleven Lights tell a very similar story. An unfettered Tatius would have put Parg Ilisi to shame, but Eel-Ariash influence on the emperor and his inner circle remains strong. "He sets his men up as roaming rape and murder squads," Char-un patrols during the Sartar occupation? Honestly, I think you are going out of your way to accuse Sheng and his army of rape. Where are all the broos caused by this? The History of the Lunar Wanes has two mentions of rape. One for Parg Ilisi, the second for Beat-Pot Aelwrin. The Third and Fourth Wane doesn't mention any such activity. Yes, Sheng destroyed cities to deliver a point. Pretty much in Assyrian or Republican Roman style. "Today Runegate, tomorrow maybe Wilmskirk, maybe Jonstown - Boldhome is behind those annoying peaks, so the Bat will have to take a detour." The Lunars are masters of the same kind of atrocity warfare that sent their founders into rebellion against the Carmanians. Sheng's ecological reforms are drastic, yes. They may have a valid magical and ecological underpinning, though, as the Lunar Way is feeding the dark, destructive side of Earth which is hostile to Sheng. Sheng is no Raider Khan like Jaldon. He aims to be an empire-builder, like Jenarong, only for the entire world. That's what he traded ascendation for. (Or, as Greg told the story on one occasion at Castle Stahleck, quoted from memory: "Last temptation: Emperor of the World? Yeah, I'll take that." Smiling, in his jocular tone, not in those muted tones I remember from his readings of Greya's story.) Speaking of Greya's story - the parts that I remember from this impressed me strongly about how wretched a life the Sixths of Dara Happa lead at the command of their Dara Happan betters. My extended family has lots of tales of escaping the advance of the Red Army on East Prussia, and Greya's story didn't impress me in any way or added anything to what already was in my family history. Her wretched existence prior to Sheng's conquest was what shocked me.

They love to possess women, they hate to be commanded around by them. While there is a lot brotherly love among the Templars, it is sexual while at the same time not about gender. It is physical affection between fellow combatants, and how they are plugged doesn't matter that much. Outside of that comradeship, the templars and even more the miliitamen have the social pressure to provide new bodes to the templars, and to keep the supply running as there will be attrition. That means reproductive sex, and that's where female templars are at a disadvantage as they have a harder time fighting while reproducing. In both detailed instances of Yelmalio temples we have (Dykene and Prax) the authors have put these Light Ladies as the foremost champions of the cult. Confirming the stereotype through the exception. But then we never have seen the Kuschile mounted archer regiments in print, a branch where female warriors are known from terrestrial history. Those are templars, too. No, Daysenerus remained that big hunk of a spearman dominating the battlefield while Nysalor manifested as a human-sized robe wearing man floating toward the Black Eater. There is Antirius the Steward, ersatz-Emperor and holder of justice. There is the Spearman cult which gets interpreted as the warrior aspect, and which leads a separate identity in Dara Happa as opposed to the frontier regions of Rinliddi or Saird. There is the Sunspear cult of that street sweeper Avivath which has been merged into the Emperor Yelm cult when his descendant Khordavu became emperor. Interestingly, the entity Khor which is a family magical guide of Avivath has been named as one of the Illumination forms of an earlier Sedenya. The first (well, actually second, there was Eusibus from Alkoth) Dara Happan emperor who was of Dara Happan ancestry within history carried the Lunar spark already.

You cannot not attend the Sacred Time rites - whatever you do during Sacred Time will influence the reconstruction of the world and the starting parameters for the following year. You will lack your community support, and your community will lack your support, and both will be weakened by this. Your challenges out in the wild can become overwhelming, as opposed to the rather controlled stuff your community does in its rites.

The Vadeli discussions haven't left that much of an impression with me. There were other, more challenging debates. The Guide replicates most of the text written for Missing Lands. That text is free of "evil". Cruel and savage, yes. (In other words, an asshole culture. There are numerous such cultures - the Char-un, the Wolf Pirates, Alkoth, the Vadrudi, Jaldon's hordes, Sheng Seleris, Ethilrist, the Tusk Riders, and any number of cultures consorting with Chaos. Underworld races like the Uz, Ethilrist's demon horses, the Alkothi Shadzorings or the Adpara peoples of the East (Andinni, Gorgers etc.) have an almost innocent cruelty. Vadeli cruelty is deliberate - also in the form of Garangordite cruelty, which is blamed on them. But the Artmali association with Chaos was not commanded by the Vadeli, probably neither recommended. The cesspool of Fonrit is a joint venture of Vadeli slave imperialists, Artmali chaos allies and anti-Pamalt Garangordites. I just checked the HW Introduction to Glorantha text and stumbled over this little gem of history written by the victors: "The greatest struggle was the Vadeli-Brithini War. At its climax the entire western continent was shattered by the Vadeli evil magics." (p.45) "Vadel and his people explored the Unlawful Realms and brought Death upon us." p.47 Eurmal and Hum(ak/c)t released Gether and made Vivamort/Nontraya a wanderer of dark and ever more evil paths in the cosmologies I have seen. Zzabur blames Malkion for releasing Chaos and Entropy into the world with his Fifth Action. Peter pulled no breaks in demonizing the Vadeli. "Periodically, they sail forth in a bloody orgy of looting and rapine." (Red Vadeli, p.213. Although little different from "We Hate Darjiin Usurpers", really) But p.215 really lets go: "The VADELI ISLANDS are the last fragments of the terrible Vadeli Empire that once dominated the world. The Vadeli are universally condemned for their odious habits; they procreate through incest and eat their own children to achieve immortality. They are evil descendants who deliberately defy the laws of Malkion. " And even when they do a great job of recovering from a cataclysm, this is how their achievements are presented: "A few dozen Browns survived and found refuge on the Old Vadeli Isles. Their rickety boats are now found nearly everywhere in the world." 160K Vadeli (after losing a man-power intensive naval war) from a few dozen. They also breed like vermin. Quite a departure from the rather neutral description in Missing Lands (and thus the Guide). The waters reek of death and other vileness after the Vadeli eliminate all sea opposition with extreme prejudice. The means employed may have been Crimson Bat grade chaotic, or just otherwise over-the-top corrosive to life and magical energies. Zzabur uses a similar magic to stop the invasion of Solkathi (RM p.13), leaving countless boiled Beakies in the then calmed wave. Thre is no comment on any olfactory component there. Oh, but pools of clear water. Ok, a difference in style. Guilty as charged when it comes to the necrophilia accusation. The brown stuff was already in How The West Was One, also with the suggestion that the vast population explosion of the Vadeli could be the result of cloning(homunculi of one and the same person (ok, a small population of individuals) in many places. My impression, too. So there were no Tadeniti, Kadeniti, Vi(y)morni, Enro(l)valini and Kacha(/i)sti prior to the compilation of RM? The indices (name lists, explanations) were around already a few years earlier, when I worked them into the encyclopedia database of mine, but less complete. Much of the Vadeli lore came from the God Learner map snippets in Troll Pak. How old are these empires of Zerendel and Endernef? The Awesome Bridge/Awesome Mystery, the Mostali land raising... no Tadeniti yet? The Guide version has the six tribes and their history worked into those maps. Zzabur worked really hard towards that goal. At some point, the Vadeli swung with that momentum and built on it. That was their decision, and that is their major sin, but I think this occurs far into the Vadeli wars, possibly around the time of the Double Belligerent Assault. One aspect of the Vadeli that is misrepresented is their descent from Vi(y)morn. IMO Vimorn and his son by the goddess is a late addition to a pre-existing numerous Vadeli population, similar to the addition of Pendal to the Basmoli of Seshnela. "Vadel's children" is way over-rated compared to the way more numerous earlier children of Vadela. There may however have been a survival bias for or against the descendants of Vimorn and Vadel in the sinking of Endernef (and conquered Zerendel, with all its stout and good Malkioni descendants). I cannot say which, though. The parts of that stuff that aren't a repeat of RM are fairly obscure, and not that helpful. The Guide took the old Brithos material and presented it in a fairly neutral way. It did insert Vimorn as father of the Vadeli, creating an unnecessary contradiction to the Brithos text, but thankfully reserved the term Brithos for the later island refuge of the Enrovalini and some other Malkioni fugitives, who were successively sent out into the Genertelan and later also Jrustelan colonies to reduce the people around Zzabur to the purest logicians he could re-create in imitation of a society that never existed in mundane Glorantha.

You claim that Vadeli don't feel any compassion or filial love, but at the same time you claim that the (orthodox, immortal) Brithini do. How does that work out? It is commonly believed (though nowhere in canonical print) that Brown Vadeli immortality involves sacrifice (and potentially ingestion) of their numerous children. Now that is not different from King Aun the Old of the Svear, only their success doesn't just ward off dying but actually prevents (or undoes) aging, avoiding the Struldbrug fate of Aun. The Brown Vadeli number about 160K, distributed over Fonrit, Umathela, Jrustela and the Vadeli Isles, with coastal enclaves elsewhere rounding the number. A significant portion might be seagoing without a clear home port. They seem to have multiplied by a factor of four from the barely sustainable conditions on their islands during the Closing. Whether through normal breeding or through magical duplication (in order to avoid risking their immortality by passing that on to offspring) isn't quite clear. Brithini immortality appears to be made easier by avoiding procreation, too - if only to avoid involuntary caste breach during child care. A Brithini will have a clear idea of his progenitors and lineage back to the Founder (not that many generations, really), but will quite likely not have much of a personal relationship with both parents, and may only stick for an apprenticeship with the parent he does share living space with before going somewhere where his special caste job is required by command of a Talar. The core family of Froalar and Xemela (and their children - two sons perished from the same disease that Xemela finally overcame through her self-sacrifice) appears to be an exception when it comes to Brithini (though not colonial Malkioni). Do either Brithini or Vadeli feel or display affection? And how does that affect their immortality? Does this obey the pure logic that is so valued as the sacred state of mind of the Danmalastani? Hrestol and Fenela were portrayed as quite affectionate siblings in Hrestol's Saga, and Hrestol is just a great-grandson of Malkion. At least two of his grandparents (Froalar's parents Talar and Eule) are children of Malkion and Phlia. Xemela's parentage isn't explored. The caste of Waertag is unclear. Being a son of the Founder doesn't automatically provide high status caste, otherwise Dromal/Dronar and his (very numerous) offspring would be as high ranking as the offspring of Malkion and Phlia. But then both Zabur Sceptre-bearer and Holar Sword-Wielder are full siblings of Talar (and Eule, Menena, and Horal of Horalwal) but not part of the Talar caste. The six founders of the six tribes should be somewhat elevated, even though their professions are something which would be expected only from certain castes. Still, the tribal founders could be argued to be Talar caste equivalent (leaders of their tribe) or Zzabur caste equivalent (source of the knowledge of their tribe). The earliest generation(s) of descendants of Malkion appear to be overwhelmingly male. Two first generation female descendants are named, Menena and Eule. A few latter generation females are named or mentioned, Xemela and Brithica (high priestess of Menena in Horalwal),, and then numerous granddaughters of Menena (three daughters of Antalos, daughters of Yingar), a granddaughter of Eule (sister to Baron Alos), and a (nameless) daughter of Xoranor (Froalar's sorcerer) who was maried to his appointed successor. Shape- and faceless ladies occupy the court situations experienced by Hrestol, too, but all of them appear to be of Talar rank. (In fact, only Brithica and Xoranor's daughter are of Zzabur caste origin or occupation.) No wives (or sister-wives) are named or mentioned for either Zabur Sceptre-bearer (who has one son, Kaldes) or Holar or Holan Sword-wielder (who has one grandson, Jeneam Swordbearer). Yet somehow there are hundreds of sorcerers and priests in Brithos at the Dawn, and probably thousands of soldiers. (There is a fight between the bridal procession of Duke Antalos middle daughter Nenora to the capital of Malkionwal and a horde of Vadeli barbarians emerging from Dontri's forest, quickly dealt with by the expert soldiers of Brithos. The fight has two mysterious non-Brithini observers - apparently aldryami.) IMO this indicates a lot of marriages between the sons and grandsons of Malkion (other than those married to daughters of Phlia) with various Tilntae or earth and sea nymphs to arrive at these rather great numbers, all prior to the arrival of Death and aging. Dronar/Dromal must have been especially fecund. Or otherwise the vast majority of descendants of the tribal founders (provided any more than Waertag appear in the Brithos story) would have ended up as workers. There sure was great demand for them, at least among the Tadeniti and Kadeniti who had tribal production to pursue. We learn about Kachisti talars and zzaburi. Both professions make sense - diplomacy is part of a talar's portfolio, and any form of magic including magical communication with others is a zzaburi job. There is less evidence for their horali or dronari, or for any females on their Speaking Tour. Likewise the Vi(y)morni appear like dilettante explorers, again talar and zzabur caste stuff. Vadel doesn't seem to have companions on his first trip outside of Danmalastan, so no evidence for either warriors or workers on his team from the Vi(y)morni side. (Plenty of workers and soldiers from his maternal kin, though.) Vadel's coloration remains unmentioned, and it has only been surmised that he may have been blue-skinned like Zzabur. It is a possibility. Which might be true but hidden by Zzaburist propaganda, or might be a lie distributed by Vadeli propaganda. Either way it should be useful. I was working from RM, and the way the Vadeli evil is ascertained there is pretty much in-world (p.14): Which, as I have said before in this conversation, literally reads like someone pulling all the diagnostic criteria for sociopathy out of a text book. I will have to claim the "not a native speaker" confusion here. From my short search for a clear definition of sociopathy, I drew mainly a blank in English language. There is a definition of the German term, translating as "a form of psychopathy which expresses as noticable (or conspicuous) behavior and deeds." A sociopath is fundamentally able to have empathy, but won't necessarily use that ability. (Without wanting to condemn anyone, this sounds similar to Asperger and similar forms of autistic tendencies. At the far end of this is deep introversion with the need to remind oneself to activate empathy in everyday situations - which is a condition I am familiar with.) It is possible to be a socially functional sociopath without being evil or forbidding, and there is nothing bad or evil about that. And from the description of that female Vadeli trader of the Orange League, she has the ability to be affable, congenial, entertaining, and empathic. If and when she chooses to be that way. She doesn't come across as monstrous or malign even with that leading background definition. I posit that an astute Logician would be able to ignore empathy and passions the same way that the sociopath can switch them on when desired/required. (Indeed, look at the spell description of Logician.) Nobody has ever accused the Brithini of superficial (or otherwise) charm or a complete disregard for morality. Other than that, all those adjectives describe the Brithini track record, and especially Zzabur's, extremely well. Ah well, something is only criminal until you adapt the law (e.g. marihuana production, trade and consumption, or possession of assault rifles), so maybe strike that from the list, too. Which brings me to RM p.14, the sentence leading to the statement of Vadeli being generally regarded as among the most evil existences in Glorantha. In other words, the average Enrovalini would not hesitate to describe themselves as "stable geniuses". Which kind of narcistic behavior has been diagnosed as psychopathic. Yes, Vadeli are Bad People, as their actions in the Gods War suggest. They are from a genocidal, slave taking imperialist society which they wholeheartedly support as good patriots and descendants. They know they are better (more worthy, more just) than any mortals, and better than those matrilinearity-denying Zzaburists with their "logical" excuses to suppress the maternal heritage. (And no, I don't want to make the Vadeli evil because of some feminist agenda. I doubt they have one, other than a pride in and magical strength from that heritage of Vadela.) BTW, I created a document grabbing all texts mentioning the letters "vadel" and their context, and searched that text for "evil". I got four hits from the Guide: P.48 Box: Tapping: "Most Malkioni, except the Brithini, Vadeli, and Waertagi, consider Tapping to be immoral and evil." P.210 Old Vadel ruins are evil P.511 (the sidebar to the Orange League picture) "The Vadeli are a race of immortal, amoral (actually evil sociopath) sorcerers" p.696 (Zzabur's Great Blast): "The evil people of Endernef were infected by the Devil and attacked Zerendel with their Double Belligerent Assault." So yes, an enemy empire invading your own (purely defenive, of course) empire is necessarily evil. Other than that and the haunting of the Old Vadel ruins, we have the confirmation that neither Brithini nor Vadeli regard Tapping as evil. One of many things they have in common. Other adjectives for the Vadeli: p.151 "coldblooded ruthlessness" Other introductions of the Vadeli: p.468 "The immortal Brown Vadeli are sailors and expert sorcerers. Their sturdy round ships ply the seas everywhere in Glorantha. The Red Vadeli are the marines and soldiers of the Brown Vadeli." (note the "t" in "immortal" - this is completely free of any moral judgement) p.527 "The Vadeli are a savage and cruel people, each of them unnaturally expert at sorcery." Savage, and cruel. Adjectives that apply to the Tusk Riders as well. "Despite being descended from Malkion, the Vadeli reject Malkion’s laws utterly and their culture deliberately and knowingly transgresses against the laws of the universe. " Their opportunistic alliance with the Mostali is quite strange in light of this. But then, rebellion against arbitrary rules of the universe imposed by some fatherly authority describes another, major culture of Glorantha, too, and a certain celestial empire has a similar disregard for cosmic compromises. "The Vadeli betrayed their fellow Malkioni and attacked them without warning." Two questions. 1. Do the matrilineal offspring of Vadela regard themselves as fellow Malkioni just because their leader Vadel happens to be Malkion's grandson? 2. Is this an objective history, or is this a reflection of "the victor writes the history books"? There are a few other cases where history written by the victors may demonize the antagonists unduly. Our Sheng debate is one such case. Bisodakar, last Carmanian Shah to be emperor of Dara Happa, is another such case. The Golden Dragon Emperor of Dara Happa is a third such case. Finally, we have mainly Plentonius diatribe against the horse warlords and sycophantic praise for Avivath and his offspring as source for the evils of the horse warlords of Dara Happa. The "kill on sight" contact with the Theyalan missionaries/emissaries may have been the fault of the Shadzorings of Alkoth as much as of the (admittedly not too altruistic) chariot emperors of the time. I did read that section as somewhat in-world, but you are right, it isn't presented that way. I wouldn't call the Brithini evil as a race, but otherwise "Immortal Sorcerers (actually Sociopaths)" describes them fairly well. No, it is because the Sorcerer Supreme behaves just like your average Vadeli. God-complex? Check. With a certain justification for both Zzabur and for immortal Vadeli sorcerers. Disregard for mortals? Check. No love for family? Brithini respect powerful ancestors, and probably direct progenitors. But love them? (I notice that the Brown Vadeli already are puissant sorcerers several orders more powerful than any sorcerers the Umathelan Malkioni could field. I shudder to think what Blue Vadeli could achieve...) Looking at the Pelandan experience with blue sorcerers (whether of Waertagi, Kachasti or Vadeli origin) I only see a slight change to the Logician sorcerers. The normal way of betraying an ally is to use your enemy to destroy the ally when left without any support in a critical battle. The ideal betrayal doesn't require any dirtying of your hands, your enemies will bleed your betrayed allies, and vice versa. There are other events coined "betrayals", for instance Arkat's progression from Brithini through Seshnegi and Orlanthi to Troll and possibly Chaos magic in his fight against (or as) Gbaji. In none of these cases did Arkat cause any harm to his previous co-religionists, yet all of them are described as vile acts of betrayal. But then, history is written by the victors... Like with Kralorela or Sheng, I would prefer to give them a relatable back-story free of the slanderous history writings of their victorious enemies. (The God Learners did write much of the book about the Kralori, and then more recent activity by Godunya and Sheng was added.) Always as an NPC population in a villain or shady ally role. Same as the Brithini of Brithos (those of Akem, Arolanit or God Forgot may be playable, with some cautioning), and apparently the Waertagi (although I can see them as player character material). The Vadeli greater purpose and the means they employ to reach it might be explored. It doesn't have to be any nicer than the pyramid scheme inflicted on the EWF populace by Isgangdrang's Third Council. I guess we are firmly on the same side here. But the elephant is in the room, and ignoring it doesn't really help. Going to the extremes that were published in Tradetalk isn't exactly necessary. Those accusations certainly distract from normal anti-semitic propaganda, but only by out-grossing them.

I disagree. The First Humans origin is held as a belief by "at least one Western sect" (of Malkioni? of ogres?), but not by all ogres. The Cacodemon ancestry on the other hand is widely acknowledged, even though there are many documented cases of ogres joining other Chaotic cults, and even non-chaotic ones. (There are no known cases of ogres in the Storm Bull cult, though. Zorak Zoran might be possible.) IMO ogres can satisfy their appetite by consuming any man rune species. A well connected ogre might be able to survive on a diet of food trollkin or ducks. A diet of newtling tails won't do, though. All are able to breed with humans or other fringe humans, and able to produce viable mixed offspring that may in some cases be counted among the fringe humans, in others with the ordinary humans. We know of the marriage of an ageless Brithini to a Seshnegi emperor. Their offspring was human, no longer ageless. Waertagi interbred with dronari in Nolos, if the greenish skin of one of those palanquin-bearers is in any way relevant. After a few generations of dilution, the merman heritage and the need to stay by the ocean side may have been bred out of that lineage. On the other hand, individuals initiated as Waertagi are a kind of merfolk, and are recognized by Sea entities as kin. Normal Malkioni aren't, and neither are cross-breeds with non-Malkioni (like e.g. Masloi on Edrenlin, or Pelaskites in Kethaela). If Vadeli have offspring with normal humans, nothing has been reported on them. I would suggest that both Brithini and Vadeli would break caste obligations when fornicating with anyone but members of their own caste (or in case of the Brithini, the Menena caste).

I brought these examples up as humanoids with human descent who had magical proof that they were no longer human but something else, much like ogres. The Ergeshi are a special case, similar to latent ogres among the Tormakting lineage of the Red Cow clan. But then, initiation makes it clear whether a Tormakting awakens as a human or as an ogre (or, judging from the variation on male initiation with all the lethal options where the initiee gets killed, not at all). Aram ya Udram (Yu Adariam in some ancient sources) was the human member of the Unity Council at the Dawn, and his people, the Aramites, were fully human at the time. At the time of the Machine Wars, the Aramite hero Varankol the Mangler had tusks much like the Tusker boars he and his people rode on. This physiognomy was the reason why they were called half-trolls. A troll ancestry has never been proven or corroborated by the Uz. It is quite lethal to be posted as permanent ambassador to the Ivory Plinth, even for uz. The Tusk Riders aren't really picky when it comes to providing sacrifices to the darkness demon that aided Aram in overcoming Gouger, the God Pig sent by Ernalda to punish (or test) the humans who had neglected her worship. By the criteria of the dragonewts and their dragon rescuers, the (surviving) Aramites of the Stinking Forest were counted among the Inhuman Occupators of Dragon Pass after the Dragonkill. If they had leaders steeped in EWF draconic lore, they would have lost them in the 1042 mass utuma/assassination of the Wyrmfriends and speakers of Auld Wyrmish. The Orlanthi named Arim also managed to win over the bearer of Kero Fin's Necklace, but he lived around 1330 years after the Dawn and founded the Kingdom of Tarsh. No known connection to the Tusk Riders. Full Kitori are shapechangers able to take on human, troll or dehori shape. The Ergeshi slaves of the Sun Domers are "frozen" in their human shape and have been cut off their Darkness heritage by hostile Sun Domer magic. It isn't quite clear whether they are fully human or whether they only register as humanoid when targeted by sorcery making that distinction. There is no information whether Sun Dome County has human slaves in addition to Ergeshi slaves, and if so, whether they interbreed. The Kitori were tolerated to cross the Crossline and to participate in the Troll Wars during the Inhuman Occupation. But then, the Puppeteers (predominantly humans) were able to enter their old stages during the Inhuman Occupation, too - but they probably used their Illusionary Troupe magics to avoid physically crossing the Crossline or Deathline. Another factor may have been that they never claimed the land as theirs. Herons have residually webbed feet and stalk waters. They are in the same family as Pelicans, so I would class them as water fowl. The Manimati trace their descent to the Suvarians, who claim to have hatched from a clutch of eggs of their great spirit Surensliba, the Heron Goddess. The Suvarian wetlands once reached from Esel River in Carmania all the way to the Oslir Valley, but the eruption of the Yolp Volcanoes cut off the westernmost marshes in the Storm Age. There is no evidence that the durulz of Maniria have any connection to Suvaria. The Brithini remember an invasion by Solkathi that carried "Beakies" with it, but that tidal wave (nothing to do with Lunar tides) was boiled, and none of the beaked passengers carried into Brithini seas survived. There is a possibility that these were keets carried off the East, and that some of them were deposited in Maniria, but again there is no proof for this as the origin of the durulz. I don't think that the Manimati have any special ties to Vrimak other than recognizing him as the Imperial Beast. The Kestinliddi folk worship/breed hawks, quails and flightless augners, but no water fowl. I don't recall seeing any duck Yelmalians, although I know of at least one fan scenario with an Elmali duck. (And no, @Quackatoa, this is not a challenge.) Big surprise there - Cacodemon is a grandson of Ragnaglar. It should be fairly hard for a descendant of Cacodemon not to be descended from Ragnaglar. The Tormakting variation on the Initiation Quest only applies to males. I wonder why the females were omitted. Is it because any females born with the trait are likely to marry out of the clan (and thereby the bloodline), diluting the trait too much for it to re-surface? I suppose that an ogre lineage can be created by procreating while possessed by Cacodemon (or at least a fiend). Given the superior physical abilities of ogres, the Chaos-leaning survivors of northern Pamaltela may have undergone that procedure despite the known disadvantages (but then, human sacrifice was on the table regularly anyway, so why not on the dinner table?).

The world is imploding around them (parts of Balazar still recover from the Windstop), and while mercenaries can make a fortune on either side of the conflict, worse times are coming. Sure, a determined leader can build where everything around him destroys - one of my favorite historical characters is Duke Friedrich of Gottorf who founded a successful city and sponsored a trade expedition to Persia in the middle of the Thirty Years War. That's not what I was saying, and neither what your suggestion to magically change the nature of the land implies. IIRC Balazar spent about 40 years of his life in the land named after him before dying in the Dragonkill War. Sartar worked on his legacy for 50 years. Any quester in Balazar has about 25 years before the excrement collides with the ventilator, with numerous intermittent disturbances. Yes, you can have side-quests that take spotlight away from Harrek, Jar-eel, Argrath or young Phargentes. But any of these can be your personal Dragonkill experience. The Hero Wars are coming, and the long peace of near death will follow.

So there is no mythic differene between Yelm the Celestial Emperor and Murharzarm the mortal emperor? No qualitative difference between Green Age Aether and Golden Age Yelm? Yes, each of these is an expression of the Fire Rune, and of Mastery. But the degrees differ. Does Aether acknowledge the Underworld Sky? Or the dark Underworld? Vith does. Shargash doesn't make sense as a son of Yelm. He would make sense as a son of Vith. Yelm Brightface is not a Green Age entity. And identity of deities goes only so far, and may be situational. Shargash and Jagrekriand map on one another quite well. Tolat does share the same celestial body, and in all likelihood most of the Storm Age and Greater Darkness myths that aren't centered on the Green City alone. But then Shadzor and Zorak Zoran are indistinguishable at the Hill of Gold. And when we look at Balumbasta as the owner of the Red Planet and responsible for its Godtime activities, how much are we looking at Lodril? How much at any of the aforementioned? And what's the deal with Vorthan? Vith and Pelorian/Theyalan Aether are quite hard to reconcile. The bright side of Vith and Yelm have much in common, but then we have HeenMaround and Govmeranen to fill those imperial sandals, unless we look at Murharzarm rather than Brightface. But then my next best hit for "green" and "Gloranthan East" is Zaktirra: With Osdero/Metsyla occupying an Antririus role by this time and their clear sky affiliation as Eagle Phoenix Emperor, I think a less Chthonian origin fits a little better. There is of course still a prominent green body in the sky - the Dragon's Head, a fragment of Dogsalu. Blue, as in Zaranistangi Veldang, comes to mind, but that is a very secondary association. But then the name "Shargash" has the Pelorian word for "Red" in it, as much as his city has the Pelorian word for green in it. Tolat is well known only after his re-birth in Hell, together with Veldara/Annilla. You are repeating anti-Sheng propaganda (however justified it may be upon his conduct during his attempts to consolidate his reign). Sheng goes against anybody who goes against his philosophy. He has a trust issue towards people from the farming culture. He doesn't hate pastoralist folk, as shown by his acceptance of the Beast Riders as (near?) co-equals to his horse rider followers. And you are describing Sheng as a moral (or rather amoral) absolute, buying the enemy propaganda completely. No one claims that Sheng is a nice guy, but his conduct falls within parameters of the Jenarong dynasty emperors between Vuranostum's sons and Eusibus/Upon Hilltops (oops, that sounds like massacres against Manimati). Sheng has a lot in common with Avanapdur, IMO. And with Arkat. The slaves of the Pentans are treated better than that. This is still the rage against the usurpers. Denseb - measured justice from above. If not for the Manimati hill forts, the Shargashi would have done worse than the stone age to the Darjiinians - their goal was total annihilation. Which is in accordance to Shargash's mythical role in the Greater Darkness, the agent of total annihilation. They failed, as they were forced to hide under the Dome (or in the Underworld - it isn't quite sure whether the Dome covered all of the Tripolis or just one city, and of only one, whether Raibanth or Yuthuppa). Sounds like the Ergeshi enjoy the privileged life in a Gulag or a work camp. I doubt they enjoy half as much care as the swine grown for slaughter. And the situation Greya and her contemporaries are facing is that of a refugee people harrassed on their flight by raiders. Pretty close to the Dresden fire bombings, except for the lack of the personal touch and systematic annihilaiton. Food trollkin still are kin. Ergeshi are trash. Productive trash, but less valued than other lifestock, and way more frequently flogged. Yes, before the Windstop, no Sun Domer from Vanntar will have contemplated eating Ergeshi. I don't think the Lunars could provide sufficient food deliveries during the Windstop, so their supposed allies/employers left Sun Dome County out in the cold, and their possible role in the battle of Aurochs Hills doesn't make a post-Windstop Marshal-plan any likelier. Building the Dome was essentially a betrayal of all non-rice farmers (and of the rice-farming Manimati, too). The exodus from Nivorah needn't have preceded the closing of the Dome. The betrayal goes both ways. And this may be pertinent to Sheng's willingness to sacrifice all those insignificant ones. while increasing the population of the sacred beasts. Yes, Sheng would value a horse's life higher than that of a farmer. Much like a Telmori will value his beast brother's life higher than that of any Sartarite or Wulfsland foe. A full on culture revolution? I thought we wanted to cut down on unwanted China (or Indochina) parallels here. In the end, Sheng's empire would have become a huge Vendref state. A lot less urban than earlier unless he tolerates those unworthies picking through mud that never will make good pasture. Pretty much, yes. Sheng is like Cortez or Pizarro. Like Attila or Timur Leng, and nameless rider leaders in earlier ages. He could have become a Mughal emperor of Peloria, overcoming the Chaos affliction of the previous empire through rigorous disciplines and punishments. When it comes to malice, I sincerely doubt that Tatius was any better than Sheng. With Sheng, it was personal - Tatius' spite and bile was ancestral, his most personal loss - his cousin Euglyptus - most likely was fed his last sugared eel by Tatius or an agent of his. Enforced starvation by deprivation of the Sartarite herds, deprivation of their fertility magics - Tatius is driving the perfect depopulation strategy against occupied Sartar, and he would have enjoyed very much to extend that "favor" to the Fazzurite estates in Tarsh, rearranging the second and third letter in that country's name. Sorry, but you are saying that starving the Pelorian dry farmers to death was Sheng's primary purpose. I don't think so - and as far as the rice farmers are concerned, Sheng appears to have been quite happy to get his horse-feed and other food from these useless wetlands. Sheng does allow ethnic and religious diversity - he has Beast Riders riding with him, ancient rivals and foes. It isn't clear whether he gets support from the Huan-to during his conquest attempts in Kralorela, and whether his reign would turn the Huan-to against his lieutenants. I am giving Sheng the same doubt that I am giving the Lunar Empire or Arkat, or Shargash. Yes, life under Shen would have been harsh, possibly puritanic and cruel. He is a solar emperor, after all. And a horse warlord, without the redeeming charm of Vuranostum. But he is willing to impose imperial order. His order, decreed from above. Like the Lunar Way, he offers an egalitarian opportunity to rise in his ranks through mysticism. Harsh and extreme, but egalitarian and meritocratic. I have no idea how benevolent the reign of Arkat was - only that he retreated from active politics after having overcome Nysalor. The Stygian Autarchy did quite well and was even beloved by its sun-worshiping inhabitants. They don't have the logistics to do that. Tatius is pre-occupied with his new temple. And he will need sacrifices to keep it running. With the much increased range, this new temple will be hungry. Sheng is not Lord Death On A Horse. He is closer to what Meriatan will look like in a decade or two. Eleven Lights p.101-114 has all kinds of situations that have crucifications, troops looking out for Orlanth worshipers, theft of food and livestock. Yes, there is some food and healing for converts to the Seven Mothers. All the rest is destruction and death. Jaranil's Death on p.109 reads exactly like you describe Sheng's reign in Peloria, and the Moon Dogs on p.111 have the kill-on-sight order for everyone outside of their villages. This includes hunters. Putting on my rebel hat, all the Lunars do is give a choice between treason or harm. The Orlanthi "are allowed to gather in towns and villages" - they are concentrated in towns and villages, and kept under supervision. You are an apologetic spin doctor here. And yes, I am making a propaganda case against the Lunars, in order to point at the probability of some propaganda case against Sheng. People died in droves when he led his zealots and a huge number of allied but mostly independent tribes into Peloria. The Opili nation fought by Yanasdros and Orin of Tarsh are such a case, opportunists following Sheng, doing his work without subscribing to his creed. The Grazeland army in Windstop Esrolia behaves in a similar way.

There is quite a bit more than "some" work that needs to be done there. The Six Malkioni Tribes of Danmalastan appears to be a newer concept. The Waertagi as a separate tribe are ancient, though. If you assume that these are finished books, then there is this problem. If these books are an ongoing process, their creation may be dated as far back. ZZabur writing his book is mentioned on p.25 of RM. While this does sound like he is writing his book only after both Ice and Vadeli had been broken, I am not convinced that he had the skin of blue Vadeli at hand this late in the prehistory of Brithos. IMO he started writing the early volumes of his book as soon as the Tadeniti had invented writing (on living skin). There is no evidence that Vadel himself was part of the Tadeniti war. The paragraph "Vadel demigod" appears to be an introductory text to the entire Vadeli War text and not so much to the naval alliance with Helerites and Banthites against the Waertagi. RM p.15: No different from Artmal, whose worship continued long after he had been killed. This paragraph is the only mention of Vadel for the entire Vadeli Wars text, all the other texts only have "the Vadeli" active. The Vadeli Wars text skips the fate of the Kadeniti, although various maps (including the ones in Troll Pak) show how the Vadeli conquered all of southern and central Danmalastan. Given that "sociopathy" is a very badly defined term (wikipedia gives an article on psychopathy instead), its usage in Gloranthan context probably needs a definition. So let's take a look at yours: Historical necessity is behind most evils in real world history. That's why I am inclined to compare the atrocities of Sheng Seleris to Vlad Dracul, and to judge both Zzabur and his Vadeli foes by the same criteria as the war criminals of WW2, convicted or left unaccused. Historical fact: psychological evaluations of the Nuremberg trial convicts show them as mentally quite healthy people. They weren't checked for narcism, AFAIK. Is there a canonical source for this? This reads like a Nuremberg trial profile. Again, is this based on your impression of the Vadeli, or do you have a Gloranthan source that is not Brithini propaganda? While we don't know why Zzabur did it, we do know when he did it - before he exterminated the Blue and Red Vadeli populations with his Great Blast. Otherwise he wouldn't have had access to their skins. The Guide tells us about parchment made from Red Vadeli skins (for Zzabur's Red Book only). This doesn't sound like living skin to me. Basically, I think the "Vadel Demigod" paragraph is wrong in the chronology. There is not a single mention for deeds done by Vadel himself after his encounter with Bamat, which long precedes the Tadeniti massacre (on those who were left behind, while lots of refugees made it to the southern shores of Zerendel). While the Tadeniti war was a genocidal attempt and while the Tadeniti homelands were purged of them, Tadeniti tribesfolk survived that first assault, so the genocide wasn't a success until Zzabur eliminated all the conquered Tadeniti and Kadeniti of Talarwal. As a side remark, another western people is famous for keeping the skins of their slain foes "alive" - the Waertagi with the Sea Dragons. This skinning magic was wide-spread among the offspring of Malkion. Its application in Chir may have been just a continuation of normal ur-Malkioni practice. With only a slight change in perspective, the Vadeli wars can be read as the underdog fight against the overpoweringly strong evil of Zzabur, very similar to Deezola's magics to topple Bisodakar's reign (of not so much terror, really - certainly not enough to spring the Crimson Bat on the Carmanians). Sedenya has much closer ties to the Spolite atrocities than the Bull Shahs ever had. All the textual evidence we have on the Vadeli is Zzaburite writing, except for a segment in the Abiding Book (of which we only known the title): Malkion condemns Vadel (RM p.18) For all we know, Malkion might condemn Vadel for preferring his matrilineal descent over his patrilineal one (from Malkion). We do know that particularly vile sorcery is called Vadeli sorcery, and that it was employed by Seshnegi kings against magically powerful foes at Hrelar Amali and against the Waertagi. We know that the Vadeli used such sorcery mercilessly on all their foes (the Agimori, Artmali and Thinobutans, the Yellow Elves of Flamal's Forest and presumably what would emerge as Errinoru's Forest, the Kachasti, the Pelandans. Probably the Waertagi too. They also are quite willing to sell such magical knowledge for a sufficiently substantial bid. We don't hear about them using sorcery against the Helerites or Banthites, only that they betray their allies. Again, they are accused of betraying the Wolf Pirates, although the text in the Guide only mentions that the early Wolf Pirates active in the Neliomi Sea stopped paying tribute to the Vadeli after Oenriko Rocks. The way the Vadeli introduce themselves in Umathela and Fonrit is anything but nice, but the human sacrifices, presenting themselves as gods or god learners, is hardly any different from how the Kachasti entered the Hykimiland Pelandan lands with their Janubian/Poralistor Waertagi allies. Whether the Vadeli regard themselves as a Malkioni peope is another question. If the Vadeli trace their descent matrilineally, Vadel's grandfather doesn't have much meaning for them. Vimorn's marriage to Vadela isn't that different from Froalar's or Aignor's to Seshna. One last observation. The Vadeli history and description is uncomfortably close to the antisemitic propaganda desription of the Jews in Diaspora. I don't want to make those hateful and baseless accusations the only essence of one of the Gloranthan cultures.

I am talking about meaningfully different aspects. Vith comes across as quite different from the primal sky god mating with his mother, the primal earth, for all his fornication with his twin wives (which is almost Lodrilesque in its fecundity). TarnGatha the Ancestral Dragon of Being (as opposed ot the True Dragon of Bein, Daruda) presents yet a totally different facade. Golden Age cosmic entities are fairly concrete, more so than the (Theyalan) Celestial Court deities (shared with the God Learners). The elemental tribes detailed in the Sourcebook (originally Wyrm's Footnotes) remain the basis for our understanding of the god world of Glorantha, and are reflected in the Prosopaedia. (Is that part of the GaGoG manuscript, or is that another separated document? Any Gen-Con buyer reading this?) But then we don't know whether Marco Polo never read or heard about what later (in the Qing dynasty) would be called wuxia literature or whether he just thought that the contemporary form of theatrical/literary entertainment in Venice was so similar that a mention would have been trivial rather than awe-inspiring. You do realize that your objection "he seems to be a mystic" is on the same level as my attempt to argue the case for a significant difference between TarnGatha and Vith and again HeenMaroun and Govmeranen? Glad you pointed to Alkor the Green in the same train of thought I had when noticing this possibility. It seems fit that Tolat may have several connections to floodings and counteracting them in the Abzered region. Shavaya is clearly a Storm Age entity, possibly Flood Era. There is conflict in the world, but then the Dogsalu uprising (the flight of the Mover of Heavens, possibly tied to the Initiation of Orlanth, which in turn is tied to the dismemberment of Umath) places conflict prior to Govmeranen's birth (which makes a direct correlation to Brightface problematic, although it allows the equation of Govmeranen and HeenMaroun with Murharzarm). Yes, but then any offspring of Ebe with ancestral animals would produce mortals as much as initally demigods, too. Grandfather Mortal is at least a demigod before accepting Death. The Horse Warlord emperors like Eater of Flesh or Eats Women at least point to very similar practices. The Red Emperor unleashing Chaos almost at a whim feels little different. I am notorious for my low opinion of Solar Emperorship in Glorantha. It was one of my formative discussions with Sandy on the Daily. And even Sandy commented that the Solar faction in The Gods War is as much a bully as are Darkness and Chaos when I chatted about my playtest experiences with him. Causing massive famine deliberately, or rather not caring that a whim or a pet project causes massive starvation and death of marginally recognized parts of the population is pretty much in keeping with the Dara Happan policy towards the Orlanthi of Dragon Pass. Creating the Windstop for the heck of it... very Solar. Plundering Dragon Pass in 1042 when all the draconic crops and herds failed - very solar. Marching on a genocidal expedition eradicating every dragonewt nest and every storm barbarian on the way is very solar. Sheng didn't treat his followers that way, only conquered non-entities/former foes. Yes, he used mass executions as a means of magical and political pressure. And Godunya regretted the victims, sent his thoughts and prayers, and continued his policy. Yes, Sheng's conquest and occupation and that of the ISIS caliphate have too much in common for us to condone either. Looking at how the Boxer uprising or the Herero rebellion were treated doesn't make me proud of Imperialist Germany either. SImilar tactics to the Herero massacre were used on the Cherokee or the Armenians. The Dara Happans condone "We Hate Darjiin Usurpers". They were happy to let all the non-obedient imperial subjects perish in the ice when hiding under the Dome. They massacred or enslaved the Pentans again and again whenever they had both the opportunity and the power to do so. Likewise, the Kralori interact with Pentans or Ignorants like Yelm with Umath and his sons. The templars of Sun Dome County demonstrate quite the merciful side of a solar rulership with their treatment of the Ergeshi. (And the Ergeshi are about as miserable as food trollkin.) No, the Solar track record isn't much better than Sheng's. If Sheng had been given a century in power longer, the survivors in his empire would have fought tooth and nail to get him back from the Dragon Emperor/Red Emperor. With just 18 years of uncontested reign, the birthing pains of his empire vastly overshadowed his vision of empire. When Avanapdur and his dream realities were banished, the survivors confronted by the keet sage Ezel Balurenesh (and Oren Parond - who became Thella) expressed honest regret at the loss of the consequences of Avanapdur's reign. Whatever new order Sheng's reign could have brought would have received a similar regret by those profiting from it. A similar appalling nostalgia is professed by any former beneficiaries of any toppled unjust regime, whether the confederate southern slave owners, European settlers in the Imperialist colonies, or the yearning for the benefits of the former Soviet Union or German Democratic Republic. Windstop. So very Dara Happan. Windstop again.

Instead, you get beef with the ancestor of whichever beast you are hunting with material carved from its horns. Only antlers are shed without the bearer losing its life. Horns of any other creature are taked from its dead body. I did laud the qualities of bone over horn, didn't I? A rhino horn works as a ram because of the shape. A stag's antlers can be as bad for royal health as can be a boar's tusks when going a-hunting, as the Plantagenet lords of England could tell a tale. But the antler isn't too likely to survive that attack, either. It is the differece between a wasp's sting and a bee's sting. Sure. This is something you can tackle if you want to do something else than participate in the Hero Wars, or - more likely - experience the semi-satisfaction of a job half-done left to your descendants like Balazar did when he realized he wouldn't return from the Dragonkill War. (However brief that realization may have been...) Speaking of Blank Lands: the concept was dropped. All places designated as blank lands in Genertela Book or Missing Lands have received an official story in the Guide. You are still free to ignore any such detail information and overwrite or rewrite it for your campaign. It just makes sharing this a bit harder if you dreamt of submitting some official material.

Taking this away from the Pocharngo thread which brought this up. I argue that the Vadeli get demonized way more than they deserve by the Brithini. If the Lunar Way has redeeming qualities, then why do we have to paint the Vadeli as so much worse? There are a few indications that the Vadeli weren't entirely regarded as Untermensch scum. The office of the Vadeli Judge, held by Hrestol, his son, and his grandson Aignor for a while, indicates some arrangement by which the Vadeli are somehow retaining a moderately functioning society regardless of individual and collective sociopathy. Before anyone gets all righteous: Every person with Germanic ancestry has several genocides committed by their ancestors hidden in their closet, beginning with the Yamnaya people eating up the plague-depopulated agricultural lands of Europe in the early Bronze Age. Our colonial histories repeat "innocent" biological warfare and willful genocide over and over again. Germany and the USA have quite recent sins, but so do Belgium, France and very much the British Empire. Other western countries have their atrocities a few centuries more remote than the last 160 years, but atrocities are there. And there are sufficient non-Western atrocities in that time-span, too... All of us inherit the luxury of our enlightenment from those ancestors who were the better rapists and murderers. Well, Viymorn at least. No, after Vadel's initial transgression entering Bamatela and loaning the Iron Energy Prison from the Mostali, Vadel himself cooperates with Zzabur to receive the Bronze Energy Prison. I note that Vadel doesn't appear in the Brithela story. Instead, we have Vadela as the matriarch of the four Vadeli tribes who originally inhabited Brithela. (And who may be the ancestors of the ogres, as the RQG Bestiary repeats the Western Original Human theory.) Actually, the Brithela story is in RM, pp.25-26. These two pages are as true as is all that Zzaburite warbling preceding them. I used up a Divination, asking whether this stuff and the demigod ancestry of Malkion the Founder is no longer true. I was emphatically told that this story remains canonical. I can't speak of most Malkioni sources, but I can speak about the concepts in Hrestol's Saga, which have quite a lot of "Greg changed his mind about this" while "Greg kept including all these very nice details from this stuff" equally applies. Take for instance Yingar the Messenger, a grandson of Malkion who ascended to act as an angelic mediator between the Founder Ancestor (worshiped by his descendants in a way indistinguishable from say the Aeolian worship of Orlanth) and his people of Brithos. There are a few interesting tidbits, like the four sons of Malkion and Phlia who are important in the struggle for the crown inheritance after Faralz slays Gresat Talarsheir, son of Hoalar and the second ruling Talar of Brithos. Hrestol made his landfall in Brithos at Horalwal, a semi-independent duchy of Brithos ruled by a grandson of Malkion, whose daughter becomes Hrestol's wife after the Brithini initially try to kill him on sight for breaking caste law. (Hrestol slew a few of his Holari (sic) assailants instead.) This list has the expected three sons of Malkion and Phlia - Talar the (golden-skinned) ruler, husband of his full sister Eule, Zabur (sic) the (blue-skinned) sorcerer and Sceptre-Bearer, and Holar (sic) the (red-skinned) Soldier and Sword-wielder. But there is one more, Horal, husband of his full sister Menena, opponent of Zabur who had been banned and imprisoned by his sorcerer brother before freed and put into the position of ruling the duchy of Horalwal by his sister-wife. Horal had two sons, Antalos (his heir as duke of Horalwal) and Yingar. And possibly other siblings left unnamed and unmentioned. Zabur is the only surviving child of Malkion after the Dawn, but Malkion and his children may be contacted by their descendants in their temples, in powerful and elaborate rites. Hrestol witnesses one such rite from outside of Menena's temple. The result of that rite is that Zabur stops his fratricidal war against the Duke of Horalwal after this ancestral/divine intervention, and drops his claim to succeed Gresat as de-jure ruler of Brithos. It is hard to say how many of these details Greg meant to salvage when he wrote the Daka Fal cult in Cults of Prax, the Hidden Mover paragraph in Cults of Terror, the Genertela Box texts telling a bit of Hrestol's story and mentioning Yingar, Revealed Mythologies or Middle Sea Empire (which has the short biography of Hrestol beyond his activities in Seshnela). Both RM and MSE were written with the development of Third Age Malkionism in mind, and all that First World -> Danmalastan -> Brithos devolution appears to be more recent than the Brithos document that Greg chose to include anyway. Hrestol's wife (F)Lorina is mentioned in the except "Kings of Seshnela Part 1", published only on glorantha.com and without the plentiful comments that part 2 (and 3) receive in MSE. What is problematic about all the Malkioni material in RM and MSE is the persistent reference to the Church of the Invisible God. Church has become a term non grata with the publication of the Guide, as have terms like "knight", "saint", "liturgist". Purging these Stafford Library books of these references and replacing them with a canonical new set of terms is a mammoth task, and one I don't envy whoever will have to shoulder this. If you want to see what logically results from following these terms and structures, look at the amusing MRQ Jrustela Book with its timinit bishop or Ttrotsky's well-written Book of Glorious Joy for a churchy version of Fronela. Also take a look at Peter Metcalfe's Introduction to Glorantha, working from the same premise, and the three Malkioni homelands in Men of the Sea. There are problems with this approach in Hrestol's saga. The population of Horalwal is comprised of descendants of Horal (not the warrior, the rival of Zabur) and Menena. Yet we know only about two talar-caste sons of this couple, Antalos and his ascended brother Yingar. A son of Yingar is one of the barons of Horalwal, husbands of the daughters of Yingar are barons, too. Malkionwal (the capital of King Gresat Talarsheir Hoalarsson) has a number of talar-rank barons, too, most prominently Baron Alos, a nephew of King Gresat, whose father (Gresat's brother) apparently perished in the same Vadeli attack that killed Talar and Hoalar or was abducted by Vadeli at some other occasion, and ultimately the successor for Gresat. But then Horalwal alone consists of seven baronies, and only 12 "enfeoffed" barons participate in the council of Malkionwal to determine Gresat's successor. This means that there are 6 baronies not held directly by the Talar of Malkionwal (as Antalos still holds two of the seven baronies for his unmarried daughters). Malkionwal (and the allied baronies) are way more populous than the dissident population of Horalwal (Antalos had the priest of the Sky God - a Zzabur-caste official - lift all active spells of the assembled zzaburi at the council, stunning both the sorcerers Zabur and his son Kaldes and himself, allowing the well-organized dissidents to leave the council without being apprehended). Even if the majority of the population of both Malkionwal and Horalwal is made up by Dromali descendants of Malkion and Kala, there must be a higher caste population of about 15% descended from Malkion and Phlia, and in case of the Horalwal dissidents, at least the talar caste appears to be made up from descendants of Horal (not the warrior) and Menena. What makes them talar caste? Where do all the Zzabur-caste sorcerers, priests and priestess (only one is named, Brithica, high priestess and direct descendant of Menena) come from? The confusion between Duke Horal and Holar Swordwielder, represented by his son and heir, Jeneam Sword-wielder, as highest warrior (and commander) of the warriors of Brithos, may have led Greg to make Horal the official term for the warrior caste son of Malkion, and leave the question of Yingar's and Antalos' parentage unattended. Hrestol's Saga contains a big chunk of Pendali royal lineages etc. which Greg openly commented on along the lines "I don't really believe that Basmoli hsunchen would have such dynasties and cities any more". Yet the cities and countries bearing the names of the sons of Pendal remain in the Second Age map of Old Seshnela, and so do the characters of Faralz and Yadmov (from Hrestol's Saga and the short prose outline of further developments in Seshnela after Hrestol's departure) appear in the text on Ylream performing an Earth rite in the name of his mother. The colonial Malkioni may be the first Westerners who aren't. Orthodox Zzaburite Brithini immortals serve every bad Übermensch/Untermensch categories you ever wanted to forget. They are as bad as Tolkien's Firstborn (humanity free of original sin, aka elves), as bad as any Victorian age anthropologist with his set of phrenological caliphers, as bad as any eugenics campaign that involved enforced sterilization. The non-drinker Agitorani aren't any better. What we do know is that the Vadeli perform in our eyes abhorrent practices to maintain their immortality. But then, compare e.g. the Ynlinga king Aun the Old and his horrible methods to prolong his life with what the Brown Vadeli are accused of practicing. When it comes to perpetuating one's existence, ethics often fall prey to opportunity. (Also note Odin's willing complicity in this practice...) Aignor the Trader apparently had embraced the Vadeli way, yet his son by Seshna was eligible to continue the Serpent King dynasty of Dawn Age Seshnela. And a later (Hrestolist Malkioni) king of Seshnela allied with the Vadeli against the Waertagi, and another employed Vadeli magics against Hrelar Amali. Yes, the Vadeli have an abysmal record when it comes to fidelity to their allies. So do Zzabur's Brithini, just ask the Waertagi and what they think about having been subject to the Closing. No. They probably started out as a slave population, those who survived the genocide and didn't manage to flee from Malkion Aerlitsson's all too numerous offspring with all manner of lesser goddesses. The genocide against the Tadeniti was cruel, over the top. It may still have been a grudge that an Orlanthi would have recognized as a valid cause for revenge. The Orlanthi stance towards the broos isn't any different, really. We are prejudiced to regard the Tadeniti as a bookish group of Lhankor Mhy prototypes, pursuing the archiving of knowledge as a higher calling in the service of the divine One Mind. While all of that may have been true to some degree, I am fairly sure that in their pursuit to discover the perfect medium for indelible writing they took up flensing knives and skinned available non-Tadeniti - possibly captives bought from the Vyimorni successors. I am convinced that one of the most egregious breaches of Malkioni (as in Zzaburite) Law is the Vadeli pursuit of matrilineal inheritance. That is probably as bad as caste crime.

The grayskins of Dorastor are humans with a chaos rune. The ogres are descendants of Cacodemon, which is why they worship that entity. Both species are sufficiently speciated that I would make them a species rather than a race. Yes, they can interbreed with their food, and often do so because the half-breeds may hear the call of the divine/devilish ancestor and grow up to be one of their number. The bestiary mentions their human origin. But then Tusk Riders have a human origin in the past, too. I disagree. It is a much-diluted ogre blood line trying to breed back to ancestral glory, hiding inside a human bloodline. The Coming Storm covers the ogre realization of male offspring nicely, but fails to convey how an awakening female ogre would fare in her initiation, and how she might be able to escape getting caught. Perhaps fae changelings are a good comparison for the ogre heritage hiding in mixed breed offspring? If you want human cannibals, look at the Cannibal Cult of Prax. In my Glorantha at least, ogres are a humanoid chaos species. I suppose he meant Men-and-a-Half, who are fringe human. Their magical (Fire) nature makes them somewhat different from normal agimori, and their strict endogamy makes speculations about their degree of speciation difficult. Doraddi are human in any aspect. Praxian Men-and-a-Half are quite different. So are Vadeli, Brithini, Grayskins, Cursed Telmori, Kitori Shapeshifters and Tusk Riders. And Ducks. Even Newtlings are people. The Praxian Men-and-a-Half are a breed apart from the other Agimori. While they are mortal drinkers, they manage to retain most characteristics of the original Agi or Agitorani. No Praxian Man-and-a-Half will contemplate a dark-skinned Doraddi or Pithdaran as possible marriage partner. They might (might!) consider some of the extra-large city dwellers of Laskal, although they probably have strayed too far with their soft, sedentary lifestyle. Agimori is also how the race of the multi-hued Teleosans is described, and all the Thinobutan-descended humans of coastal Pamaltela are of "Agimori race" even though they don't (necessarily) share any ancestors with either the Doraddi or the Men-and-a-Half (if they managed to remain pure-blooded - probably harder to do in Thinokos or on the Kumanku Isles, but feasible in Maslo or Kimos). You're being overly agitated about this admittedly imprecise use of the term. Most ogres appear to be of wareran appearance, because that's what their human (western human?) ancestors were. The RQG bestiary ties their origin to that of the Brithini and Vadeli. Possibly closer to the latter, but either side experienced their all-time lows and Chaos temptation. Cacodemon ancestry is a feasible way to determine an alternative to humanity, though. In D&D terms, ogres would be tieflings, not humans. Waertagi are clearly Wareran, but I would place them in a species of their own - at least a subspecies of a subspecies (the "Brithini" as a term for the last remnants of the original people of Malkion). They are as much a species of merfolk as they are human. (It is unclear where Waertag found his wives - his father Malkion was a demigod of Storm and Sea, his mother was a Waertain niiad like his paternal grandmother.) Tusk Riders are as human as ogres. Full shape-changer Kitori aren't really human, either. Cursed Telmori are were-creatures, even though their Hsunchen ancestors were human-shaped sapient animals. Lapsed (civilized) Hsunchen are fully human as they lose the privileges of human-shaped sapient animals. Ducks aren't humans, even though their ancestors might have been at some point in Godtime. Deri aren't humans. Their ancestor was, before Eurmal killed and then multiplied him. All of these are people.

IIRC farming has been tried, and it fails outside of the lands claimed by the land goddesses of Holay. There is no extant land goddess - possibly a victim to the Chaos Horde deflected in the Unity Battle? - that would support any kind of plowing. Instead, Balazar had to woo and marry Rigtaina, a hunting nymph (an aspect of the Lady of the Wild) to establish his citadel lord dynasties. The pig breeders of the citadels are acculturated Votanki who have lost the respect of their hunting kin. Elkoi (until 1628 at least) is a Lunar relocation project, started under Phargentes (who conquered the place - probably even before re-taking his brother's kingdom), tired of having to stage countless punitive raids into Balazar). Without a working agriculture, there is little hope to raise the population density much. I would assume that there would have been Lunar settlers attempting to grow maize, using up ever more human sacrifices, to little or no avail. The farmers probably either starved, ran away, or were acculturated as pig tenders. It is likely that Phargentes would have sent troublemakers, probably from Aggar, or later from his own kingdom. One thing that might work would be to extend the Glowline into Balazar (changing the magical reality of the affected land) - but after all resources to such endeavors had been sunk in the failed Sartar project, I doubt anyone could even crowd-fund a new Glowline extension project in the Empire. It is possible that Balazar could have achieved more if he hadn't perished in the Dragonkill War, alongside all of his able-bodied Yelmalian followers. This may have been good news for the Votanki, who might otherwise have been enslaved much like the Kitori in Sun Dome County, serving a rather broad Yelmalian warrior elite rather than a small citadel lord elite. The term "Ergesh" was first published as Plentonius' identification of Votank on the Gods Wall, indicating a long standing tradition of hunting for slaves in the Elder Wilds. I blame the weird decision to make one of the few well-developed corners of Glorantha into a Blank Land when the Genertela Box was published for much of the hiatus. Griffin Mountain provides probably again as much material on the Lunar Provinces as does Genertela Box, and was invaluable to me when I put together my own precursor of the Guide in the early nineties. When Moon Design published their edition in 2001, we finally received gaming material on Sartar, though for Hero Wars (then HeroQuest). There was of course the Griffin Mountain freeform, which I experienced in my biggest role so far (Boshbisil the Giant). That's one of the few Gloranthan freeforms I didn't get my hands on the gamemasters' package... If you want to keep the publication rhythm, we have about two years to create an updated version with a campaign for the post-Dragonrise arc. But to be honest, I would rather see a Hahlgrim's War campaign statted out, possibly with a few side quests, before creating a new campaign in the shadow of Argrath's endeavors towards Saird. One thing worth pursuing in an Argrath-related campaign might be a hunt for EWF remnants, although I suppose that Balazar's presence in the Votanki lands was very much caused by such an endeavor, with Balazar recognizing a chance for dynastic grandeur. While sort of applicable to a thread on Votanki (and their neighbors), this is a perfect example why trade between Balazar and the Empire will remain limited to curiosities and maybe furs.

Actually, wild local grain is gathered by the citadel folk and a staple of their diet, but no one grows domestic grain, or tries to domesticate the wild varieties. Balazar's questing brought in pigs from Maniria, but no grains. Structurally as a handle, or even as the arm of the atlatl - yes. As point or blade, horn is inferior to wood. Really?

That is the story where the Vadeli are part of the six tribes of Malkion, and where Vadel starts out as an agent of Zzabur. The Brithela story has the Vadeli as the original human inhabitants of Brithos/the West, pushed out of their inheritance by the upstart children of Malkion the Founder (and they are not descended from him in this story). After a period of genocide and expulsion, the Vadeli find or steal sorceries to counter Zzabur. The Blue, Red and Brown books of Zzabur happen here, too. So everything Zzabur stands for or enforces is regarded as evil - even basic social rules. It is part of their magic to resist the overpowering magics of Zzabur. Yes, the Vadeli are sociopaths, but Zzabur is every bit as sociopathic as the Vadeli.

Ogres don't usually practice cannibalism - at least I have seen nothing to indicate that ogres devour other ogres regularly, or as the result of a victory in intra-racial disputes. Ogres prey on humans. That's similar to chimpanzees preying on monkeys. It isn't "other people". It is other species. The uz are a lot more problematic with their harvesting of trollkin. The main difference between unicorns and broos is that the unicorns target only females (though it isn't clear whether they are attracted to first estrus or whether they claim virgin heard beasts) and that the birth of a unicorn is less likely to lead to the death of the mother. Boo propagation is nasty, but so are the larvae of parasitic wasps. Other forms of forced consensualities with dependants are common, and little better. Stand-ins for a deity in a rite aren't always volunteers, as Biturian's visit in Sun County shows. (But then his relationship with Norayeep doesn't exactly start out as healthy, either.) Tusk Rider sacrifices experience massive torture. Apparently "corrective disciples" in Kralori reorientation camps fare little better. In either case a transcendence of the soul is what this is about. The troll rite of rebirth is another form of transformative torture. Initiatory rites contain torture elements, too. And cults that you are born into which require voluntary self-mutilation (e.g. Gerra on the Descending Pyramid of Dezarpovo) are problematic, too. We accept other behavior in our alter egos, like killing fellow humans or sapient beings for money or favors. Little of all that is actually morally healthy. The Vadeli race is cursed. Cursed by Zzabur. That's quite similar to the Telmori curse pronounced by Talor. We don't know when and how Zzabur cursed the Vadeli. We know why - they wouldn't obey him and obstructed his plans. The Vadeli took on themselves terrible vows to enact a revenge on Zzabur, and that pushed them into the behavior they are loathed for. How different are they from the Hellwood Elves? Or from the rebeling Veldang in Fonrit? Or from the Lunar uprising against the Bull Shahs?

None of Vith's myths are found for TarnGatha in Kralorela - the three threes of Parondpara, the dual wives, the Adpara offspring... Govmeranen has Dogsalu (a dragon, the Mover of Heavens) as his father and Yothenara (Uleria?) as his mother. I looked hard to find how Govmeranen's rule ended, but all I found was that he was defeated by Oorsu Sara. The entry for HeenMaroun reads that he was a True Dragon. Not became, was - which would require Yothenara to have been a dragon, too (which should certainly be within the powers of a Parondpara). The Mother of Many? The Kralori don't have much to say about Oorsu Sara - HeenMaroun created a demon as the instrument of his utuma, then manifested as the Bolt of Enlightenment to destroy the demon and start the world anew. The Kralori have no origin story for Metsyla, other than that he was encountered early on by HeenMaroun, then sat steadily in his abode in Abzered until he was drowned. No mention of Thrunhin Da being his mother and a green deity his father. (I wonder whether Angen the Green might have been an earlier form of Tolat, or rather an Earth Walker or Elf deity?) Osdero rules Abzered (of which Kerandaruth would have been a part) already under Govmeranen, and continues administrating the northwestern successors of Govmeranen's Empire until he gets drowned. I was contrasting Shavaya to Aptanace and how this Hsunchen origin dominates mainland Kralorela. Shavaya instituted government. All the "invented civilization" is at best tied with Aptanace, possibly as parallel development, otherwise taken over. What is the opinion on Ebe fathering the Hsunchen? Are the Hsunchen the result of his mating with animals, and is he the Hsunchen who got civilized by mating with Okerio? Or were the siblings of Aptanace still Korgatsu folk that needed the sage's teachings? To be honest, that is just the standard Solar hierarchy way, the very thing Orlanth went up against. Sheng does inflict initial hardness as he (in his eyes re-) established the ideal state of the Jenarong dynasty. Low tier Dara Happans have always had it extremely hard. Maintaining the strict dress code in the severe winters mustn't have been fun in any time, under whichever rulers. Around 1460, Sheng had ruled in both Kralorela and Peloria for most of a generation, had cross-transplanted Dara Happan and Kralori bureaucrats, and even his Praxian followers had managed to insert themselves as local middle class in Hongguan. (There are no sad tales of extermination told for Boshan Province...) Those that had adapted to that new way probably were well off, or at least no worse off than under the previous regime. Those who fought against the imposed order suffered the fate of all rebels, even if their rebellion consisted of loyalism to the previous regime. I think that the Brightface usurpation of Peloria was little different. A lot of peoples were forced to change their way, with little regard to their well-being. There is one detail in Kralorela's history which I find weird. When the False Dragons Ring took over control under ShangHsa MHNBC, the dissident exarchs managed to conquer Ignorance without any significant resistance, and establish a regime of Enlightenmen in Exile. Pretty convenient to find Ignorance to be that easy to push over, isn't it? So more Beowulf or Siegfried than Alfred... not that there isn't a legend about Alfred, but in the end, history was written by him and hs scribes, so no alternate and fantastic history was needed.