Joerg

The "biped" appears to be sort of optional if you think about centaurs and mermen who only have the upper body of our conscious biped. Ouori and male zabdamar take the "able to use tools with their hands" rather down, too, but still are accorded man rune status. Even Morokanth are better at manipulating tools. And herd men have the manipulating organs but lack the consciousness to do something with them.

The magic in the Kalevala is shamanic to some level, but it also has parts which aren't. The entire setting is about the Sampo, the equivalent of a Mostali Artefact gone astray. One reason I took objection is that I crushed the numbers, and the huge number of Uncolings would require either extremely numerous herds to sustain the humans, or that the humans spend much of their time on four hooves to survive - more so during the Ban when their migrations were curtailed. It is possible that the post-Ban Uncolings are significantly different from the pre-Ban ones, when they still may have roamed all the way from Winterwood to Eol. This special situation is in no way relevant to the stories in the Kalevala. As are parts of the Odin traditions (where they aren't yogic). Knowledge stored in vaguely alliterational verse isn't exclusive to the Finnish magic, the Merseburg spell formulas are one of the very few Germanic texts which escaped the book-burning of Charlemagne's son Ludwig the Pious (following up the killing of people with the knowledge under his father). I guess the Song of Iron is the best preserved tradition on both the killing with and the repairing of damage by the iron, though knowledge of the iron. It might apply directly to Glorantha and have a hand in its increased lethality against the Elder Races. Yes, the Rathori culture is borderline non-hsunchen with their semipermanent edifices, gardening etc., and the Jonatings south of the Dona may be an offshoot gone theist. Like I said above, the Uncoling census during the Ban doesn't leave enough grazing for the herds if a similar human-to-herd ratio is postulated like with the Pralori or the Praxians (Sables are about the same size, slightly heavier). This four-legged mostly lifestyle doesn't say zilch about their shamans, I agree, but it changes the people completely.

I wonder whether the mystic path allows a gap or an overlap of the opposed runes. Maybe you have to start your meditations developing a gap, then perfect balance, then an overlap (with the choice up to the enlightened person rather than the dice). After all, these runes are used to effect magic (not necessarily by the 'newts, but e.g. by Yelmites strong in both life and death).

That's a common misconception because the Norwegians used to call the Sami "Finns". The Kalevala is the Finnish, or more specifically the Karelian epos. That means it deals with a culture of farmers and forest hunters who rarely got to see a reindeer, but plenty of moose and squirrels. (The Finnish term for money, raha, is derived from the value of a (red) squirrel fur when dealing with Hanseatic merchants, it being some sort of smallest denomination.)

The thing with the spiritual organ attuned to a certain way of magic is part of the meta-rules of Gloranthan magic, like (usually) the energy for magic being created by the denizens of the Middle World, with denizens from the Outer World more or less Being their magic rather than producing it. Sure. But the God Learners were right to a certain degree. They went wrong when they adapted reality to their theories rather than the other way around. The trouble is that they were able to do so despite going wrong.

Most are, but I will have to wait for the museum to re-open again after re-organization to be able to tell what's on display now. (I work a few km from it...) Looking forward to seeing those. Great... that's the kind of continuity between Viking dress and elsewhere I was talking about. Dress, housing, tools - the main advancements were introduction of iron as the other available metal, and shipbuilding. And I am not exactly sure whether the jump from Hjortspring's carvel-built sewn canoe to clinker-built Nydam boat was a direct advancement from that shipbuilding tradition or a new player studying the models of others and applying his own technique to it. (That's how the first Hanseatic cogs were built, and with "upside down" clinker.) When I look at a contemporary statue like the "Thusnelda" (captive female barbarian), I wonder how much of that is depicting the strangers in Lederhosen and Dirndle when portraying Germany as a whole. Take one minor region's idiosyncrasies and project them on a great and mostly innocent population. It's a bit like seeing basically nude Impala riders and telling everybody that the entire Paps is a great nudists' paradise.

In RQ, spirits used the spell (or ability) "Visibility" in order to interact with beings on the physical plane. WIthout that ability or residence in a material object or host, no interaction was possible. A spirit with Visibility still was part of the spirit plane, but could reach through the veil. The range of interaction on the physical plane might be line of sight, but on the spirit plane there are different or no obstacles for line-of-sight. A spirit that can perceive the fetch on the spirit plane may be blocked sight (or other pertinent senses) to perceive the shaman on the mundane plane. A somewhat able shaman will of course use his fetch as a spirit radar while navigating the mundane world with his other senses.

The OP didn't talk about wandering monsters, but about the shaman straying into the mundane world territory of spirits potentially hostile. It is like passing through another clan's territory. A shaman within reach of his own tradition's territory will be aware of the neighborhood, and will have made arrangements for travel when crossing into known neighboring areas. A shaman straying far from his responsibilities may encounter foreign territories unprepared, and I would definitely allow encounters there. But then, even though there is a link between the mundane and the borderland spirit territory, there may be another adjacent spirit region which remains just outside of the boundaries of a dominant spirit linked to the land, some sort of anteroom plane. It may be quite narrow, though.

Dragon magic can be acquired (e.g. by newtling slaves) like RQ3 divine magic. Spend a core ressource (POW or hero point) for single use. Despite that formalism, it probably feeds upon the draconic reality around the caster, much like a sorcerous Tap.

Conductor cables and switches for magical energies. Anyone touching the contacts will either bleed some magic into the material or be charged with whichever potential the line was running on before. Two people touching will equalize their magic potential, possibly losing some to the material. Transfers in excess of X will cause unconsciousness, whether on the receiving or on the donating end.

Currents often cannot be discerned standing right on the shore. If you ever got into a riptide, you will be able to attest that. Dealing with such a current means lateral movement out of it, whether as a swimmer or as the captain of a vessel. I was standing with Greg on the wall of Castle Stahleck, watching a rather strongly flowing Rhine just short of high water warnings casting eddies and even some foam on the banks, and Greg said that this was a lot smaller than what the Creek-Stream River carried down Dragon Pass. The speed was ok, but the width should have been closer to that of the Mississippi. Thus I imagine the New River as a stretch of whitewater, and a challenge to boatmen (or boat-ducks). In light of that declaration, I do wonder how the fording at Valadon would be achieved. If it was just the Lyksos before the Creek Stream was joined to it, I have no problem with a wide river bed and meandering areas of current, but with the constant Engizi outflow (or at least better than 60% of it, the rest escaping into the Marzeel or the Underworld through the Styx Grotto) there has to be a strong current. To make it fordable means to find passages of slow current (which may be deep) or areas with fast current too flat to pull you off your feet. And it doesn't take much current to do that, even only at ankle height. The ancient rivers had main currents and counter-currents, and the riverfolk worshipping such active rivers are able to find and use the counter-currents to their advantage. The passage through the Bosporus with a trentaconter (the reconstruction of the Argo) in the 1970ies used such counter-currents too since their rowing speed was slower than the current coming from the Black Sea. Riding such currents in coastal waters is a critical skill for navigators and likely a gift by one of the entities of the waters there, and out there on the ocean you have the Doom Currents which demand similar skills, only at much grander scale. The Waertagi go a step further and summon currents (or tidal waves) to carry their ships to their destinations.

One thing I observed is that in each of the ages, an area with an alternate magical property was started inside Glorantha, expanded, then collapsed into itself. The Bright Empire with its area where illumination was seen as a force for good vs those outside or unaccepting, fighting it head to toe. Both Arkat and Nysalor claimed to have fought Gbaji, and I think they were right - Gbaji being the mask between the two realms of magic. The Imperial Age had the EWF dragon dream which altered its interior - gradually, not abruptly, as you entered the EWF, but with very weird draconic husbandry and plants in the core of the EWF. This dragon dream ended abruptly with the assassination of the EWF leaders and draconic thinkers who had not already ascended. The dragon entities turned back into ordinary cows and plants, or withered away. The Third Age has the Silver Shadow and its magical expansion, the Glowline, creating a distinctly different magical reality inside vs. outside. By the end of the Hero Wars, there will be no Glowline, and only one shared magical reality. It will be neither the Red Moon nor Argrath's Reaching Storm reality. Each age had the creation of a new god, and its destruction (Osentalka/Nysalor, Zistor, and Rufelza). The God Learner RuneQuest Sight and other such effects did not create regional differences in magic, but it changed Gloranthan magic as a whole, twisting and bending it until it snapped (mostly) back. The experimentation did leave changes and scars. Both Nysalor and the Red Goddess had their Other, Arkat and Sheng Seleris. Both Others got sent to Hell and liberated through the Lightbringers Quest (and more). Every time, people or cults transcended the normal rules of the world. And every time, some cataclysms resulted.

I think I said so - they have it, but they never develop it into their interface with magic. The Hrestoli belief in reincarnation might be inherited from Seshna Likita, in which case these Hrestoli would acknowledge a soul, or it might be something sorcerously tangible, which was fomulated as an essence. I wonder how much the side remark in the Daka Fal write-up in Cults of Prax still holds true. The term "spiritual organ" came from Greg when discussing the three Otherworlds in the Hero Wars era, before his re-explorations of the Second Age in preparation for MRQ. While it is certainly terminology from the Gloranthan meta-rules, I don't think that the concept is necessarily limited to the God Learners.

The topic I discussed is grasping for my understanding of Loskalm and what has it done to Old Hrestoli ways and why is it so different. Irensaval is a Fronelan concept which was suppressed by the (Makanist Hrestoli) God Learners, but embraced by Halwal in overthrowing those. I care, and that's enough for me trying to find out about the situation. I am not arguing against you, I am trying to find out what could be going on. Irensaval got projected on Idovanus (or vice versa) by Syrantir's wizards in his demigod son's new kingdom. Snodal's demigod son is in a very similar position. I see Siglat rather as Lenin, the guy who put the theory into some praxis, breaking heads to get there. For other comparisons, he is Thomas Müntzer or Jan Mathys (of Münster) to Gaiseron's Luther or Calvin. Or maybe Henry Tudor, ordering the church changed without providing details, but approving or disapproving of his bishops' work, but failing to complain about that cleric's noise. Siglat is the architect of the kingdom, maybe the societal structure. Gaiseron is providing the scripture, and possibly had a draft prepared before Siglat came into his inheritance. Siglat is maybe 15 years old when his father triggers the Ban. The bearded old man clearly is Gaiseron, even if he was a youthful 80 years old or so at that time. Or, to use more Bronze Age or Classical parallels, Gaiseron is Aristoteles to Siglat's Alexander, or Chiron to Heracles. (Merlin to Arthur works, too, but leads to wrong ideas about medieval armor.) Loskalm finds itself under the Ban with about half again as much land as it laid claim to around 1450. Some of it is inhabited by barbarians who require forceful pacification and conversion, see p.202/203 in the Guide. I doubt that these were the only heads he had to break in order to establish his change, although he was undoubtedly aided by the fact that his kingdom experienced an apocalyptic isolation. Being a semi-divine prince, Siglat will have begun his schooling towards classical Man-of-All status besides the Talar duties of administration and manners - i.e. horse-care, swordplay and basic spell manipulation, perhaps even have reached graduation. The new society of Loskalm resembles neither the old Hrestoli ways nor the caste system of Altinela (which mentions separate stats for different castes, much like Luatha have, too, so I don't see much possibility of caste mobility there). Entitled-thinking heirs suddenly need to prove their merit beyond lazily fulfilling the minimum requirements of their caste. Many an owner of privilege will see how unfit his children really are to take up his inheritance, and some might object to their family falling from privilege for a single generation's failure. Probably Siglat was sufficiently charismatic to carry the majority of the disinherited elite youth along his (and/or Gaiseron's) new vision. Maybe all of them join the grand adventure of painting Aunt Polly's fence, or at least enough that the number of civic broken heads remains below significant reporting.

Much of this was hashed out under the strictly dogmatic separation of the three otherworlds, but as far as I understood this, every human is born with a soul, a spirit and an essence. It depends on which one of these three spiritual organs you develop which magical otherworld comes naturally to you. I agree with David that the mystical path somehow undoes the separation of these three, and thereby allows development in all directions. Hero Wars had the Misapplied Worship (etc.) concept taken to unnecessary extremes which still allowed you to tie your soul to a great spirit or great essence, and the other four combinations as well, at a penalty. HW's idea of a penalty was slowing growth in that magic by doubling hero point expenditure, which did not really work for me. I am more comfortable with some of David Scott's ideas, while I think that others are just as clunky HQ rules artifacts as are POW sacrifices and Free INT in RQ. But that's just me.

I meant "why my verbosity"...

Why the verbosity? First of all, remember that I am not a native speaker, and while I generally think in English while writing about Glorantha, some of my thought structures cry out for better ways to make the point in the idea space beyond that language. Second point: New Idealist Hrestolism has not only usurped the unlucky non-Hrestoli that were trapped with the Loskalmi in the Ban, but has also found adherents elsewhere in Fronela since the Thaw. The Count of Einpor probably managed to bring a good portion though not necessarily the majority of his population over to Gaiseron's ways. There may be proponents of that way even over in Syanor, however much the majority of the Malkionized nobility thanks you very much for not mixing them up with their pagan peasants. So, next point - how much is Irensavalism tied to Hrestolism, or is it an entirely independent movement that somehow has been made acceptable in Loskalm to avoid civil strife? Halwal appears to have taken it on in his Arkat-like struggle against the Deception aka God Learner error (if he wasn't just a disgruntled sore loser who would bear any mantle to whittle away his old rival's power base). Personally, I think that Halwal was a sincere serial fanatic. That makes his failure to return the complete Arkat even more ironic. Siglat reformed Loskalm to Gaiseron's ideas during the Ban, through feats of arms against hapless minorities caught in the same Ban fragment as the juggernaut of Loskalm. Comparing the map of Loskalm under the Ban to the historical map of 1450, it contains significant portions of Fronela that were not considered part of Loskalm before. Some regions might have been annexed from Loskalm by the White Bear Empire earlier, and a lot of independent Junora became dependent of Loskalm all of a sudden. The clear and abrupt change from hill barbarian to Loskalmi Hrestoli on the border to Oranor is the result of a century of imposed Hrestolism of Gaiseron's new ways. Unlike in Seshnela, prominent wizards disagreeing with Gaiseron's doctrine had no way of becoming dissidents in exile, due to the Ban. I suppose that Gaiseron offered a lot of grandfathering in their personal status when he spread Siglat's reforms. Ancient magus-level wizards may have censored their publicized opinions on caste and state in the interest of continued breathing, although I am pretty certain that quite a few had to be convinced the hard way or to be shut up permanently. How much of Perfecti doctrine was adopted by Gaiseron (or did he come from that background?) How much of his New Idealism is a watered down version of that purity-obsessed doctrine? And how much do their purists loathe the compromises Gaiseron was willing to accept in order to maintain a national unity of style and purpose? Old Hrestolism did not demand that everybody undergoes the arduous road of becoming a Man of All. It was perfectly fine to be perfect in your birth caste and never touch anything outside of it. Among the priviliged caste families, this created a sense of entitlement (whether founded in scripture or simply in human greed), and breaking that will have caused quite a bit of strain during the sparsely documented early years of Siglat's reign and ascension. There are always Old Day Traditionalists that need to be crushed, and only rarely can they be exterminated for good. One thing Gaiseron doesn't seem to have changed are the practices of Joy, Ascension, and possibly Reincarnation. About eighty years earlier, Bailifes and Mardron blew the fledgeling school of Rokarism which condemned all of these three out or proportion and imposed it from their obscure corner of Tanisor all over Eastern Seshnela and Tanisor. Unlike the situation in Loskalm, dissidents had other ways than to buckle under or die resisting. Emigration happened. The Castle Coast received a huge number of the entitled castes, creating a society of way too many higher caste population in nostalgic grief. More pragmatic houses among the losers of Asgolan Fields There have been Malkioni wizards or sorcerers in various places of exile. I would posit that the City of 10,000 Magicians will have had more extremely ancient Malkioni sorcerers than just Akgarbash of Laurmal, who could be a Brithini in exile, or a Makanist Hrestoli from their period of control over Arolanit. He and his colleagues must have washed up in the northern EWF significantly before the Dragonkill, and must have been able to free themselves of any unacceptable ties to the EWF when facing the True Golden Horde. (Being over-powerful sorcerers surely shifted acceptability into their favour...) There is a notable presence of prominent minority Malkioni among the expat communities e.g. in Nochet or in the mercenary companies taking service elsewhere. And these aren't farmer caste Malkioni used to dancing to the tunes of rulers, wizards and soldiers, but potential movers and shakers, with a higher average of magical potential. In other words, these expats contain proportionally a lot more philosophers and individuals schooled in magics than the population sustains in their home countries. It is a bit like the Persian Ayatollahs in exile during the Shah's reign. A massive number of highest ranking religious leaders non-conforming with the current regime was ready to replace the flunkies of the regime. There might be enough Old Hrestoli wizards, philosophers, men-of-all and talars in exile to replace the entire Rokari leadership. Doesn't seem to happen in the prophecies of the Hero Wars, but the potential might be there. And much of it might be diverted into Argrath's fight against the Lunar Empire and into the struggles of Ralios, and spent in those conflicts. Again, the Irish Wild Geese of the Spanish Netherlands are a good example for such an exile community. The Persian empire had plenty of Greek Exiles when they tried to conquer Athens and the other city states. The same argument could be made for adherents of the Silence hiding in Fonrit, Adjusted clans in Esrolia, or of Jolaty anywhere in remote portions of Sheng's former empire. Expat communities strong in dissidents aren't a modern development. It isn't quite clear how much of those were possible in the courts of Rhamessis or Hattusha, but both winners and losers of the Iliad are reported to have ended up in exotic places.

It is really funny how me putting forward one and the same proposition how to combine Rune Priesthood and Sorcery in RQ keeps me at odds with Peter. Back in the 90ies my proposal of initiated or acolyte sorcerers was unthinkable heresy. Now it is grognardism, limiting the possibilities... Most of the spirit world defies the logic of Malkioni sorcery. Sorcerers seek to dominate the spirit world. Shamans are among the bigger predators of the spirit world, but ordinarily they make deals or wagers with spirits rather than forcing them to buckle under (something the RQ3 rules for getting spell spirits completely failed to convey). There may be traditions who take spirit allies or guests, and others which integrate the spirits into their physical and spiritual self. Either could be done cooperatively or through domination. Wrong on several accounts. First of all, just because something was wrongly described in a publication like say the Introduction to the Hero Wars against better data doesn't mean that it had to stay broken (thinking of misinterpretations of Heortland here). Praxian shamans are the last thing I consider - I am concerned with Kolatings, earth witches, or hsunchen shamans, and willing to nod towards Noruma's shamans, too. A school of sorcery able to discorporate into the spirit world doesn't exactly become a shamanic tradition. Shamanism works on an instinctive level with experience rather than knowledge, whereas sorcery is knowledge-based and frowns on instinct. Anybody who uses sorcerous techniques as part of a mystical journey through the spirit world works under yet other premises. I think we agree that Arkat brought some sorcery to the uz, but hardly the entirety of Zzabur's writings. Troll sorcerers are limited by what Arkat gifted them with and what they researched, traded for or conquered/stole from others. The RQ3 sorcery was pretty un-Gloranthan with the importance of the sorcerer's familiar. However, the idea that the sorcerer's apprentice had to "initiate" to a magical entity through which the deeper knowledge for sorcerous manipulation was taught was a very good TANSTAAFL principle. The apprentice created a magical bond to his master, and only the (permanent) death of one of the participants of the bond, the apprentice's graduation to adepthood or the cancellation of the apprenticeship would terminate this bond. Without that bond, no teaching of these abilities was possible. Theoretically, under RQ3 rules, the bond only had to remain in place for long enough for the apprentice to develop the basic knowledge of these skills, the rest could be done through research or (IIRC) experience. Theoretically, the world could be awash with former apprentices with some basics and some self-taught improvements on those. And it's in the neighborhood of this that I would place the sorcerous abilities of (Old) Hrestoli Men of All, judging from the effort Hrestol and his companions spent on these pursuits. The Gaiseron scheme is something else, and its loopholes haven't been explored enough. But back to Pent, and to David's hypthetical exchangeable twin providers of the same kind of magic: I don't think there is a single religion which has this redundance. The Pentans and their various offshoots have Golden Bow, and I expect it to be a single entity regardless whether classified as a spirit or as a deity. Either pure approach is bound to be wrong. If HQG offers both ways as valid rules construct, then the rules don't quite reflect the reality. It is not just RQ which falls into that trap. The two versions cited by David are what we got from the Hero Wars subcultitis - different names and methodology to arrive at these results.Since we are dealing with lesser aspects of the entity in question, having the fifty foot giant reflect certain preferences of the individual calling it up is correct to some point. If the magical origin doesn't matter, then why oh why the Orlanthi categorical condemnation of sorcery?

I suppose seasonal wind direction will have a big influence on the travel time, and of course the wind shadow of the Shadow Plateau in times of northerly winds and funneling effects when it comes from a westerly direction might make it faster to take a southerly route around Frog Island rather than braving the shallows between it and the Bottomland peninsula. On the approach to Nochet, ships have to handle the Lyksos current, which will add to travel times to Nochet, too. The return journey to Karse probably only takes a day when winds, currents and tides cooperate. Probably used by express galleys relying mostly on oars. Braving narrow shallows with contrary winds in a sailing craft takes quite a bit of guts, even if the coast is mainly mudflat rather than rocky skerries. Tidal variations add another problem to that route. With the stump of the greatest volcano ever (Shadow Plateau) looming 3000 feet high and enclosed on all sides, there is little reason to hug the coast for landmarks - unless you rely on punting rather than oars or sails, leaving the mudflats in a safe distance sounds like a better plan. How much will captains shun the City of Wonders during their crossings? Its inaccessibility might radiate a no-sailing zone.

I'd love to comply sooner, but after fiddling around with my mouse producing unacceptable results in Inkscape, this will have to wait until I either have my graphic tablet (should be there by the end of next week) or port the screenshots from the guide into a GIS tool which allows me to create polygons the way I am used to (which will need to wait until I have more time over the weekend, if I do). i was planning to use polygons with different pattern density over the Malkioni distribution map, with the historical map of 1450 crudely aligned to give me useful borders to show Old Hrestoli distribution, with variations like the Galvosti and presumed others. If there is one thing that is missing from the AAA it is a compound map of the various regions with borders and city sizes, but as I said, that kind of thematic maps belong into a GIS rather than into a PDF.

When Peter says "Hrestoli", he means Gaiseron's brand of Loskalmi Hrestolism, with an unknown quantity of Irensavalism and influence of the unorthodox Perfecti among them. When I say Hrestoli, I mean something different, like including the practices in Pithdaros, the Castle Coast and various parts of Ralios where the Rokari revisionists have been rejected. The Guide includes the weird Galvosti in its (correct) definition of Hrestoli, and gives an offhand bombshell about Hrestoli belief in reincarnation (that much for Malkioni having no concept of soul). All Stygian/Henotheist churches are branches of Hrestolism, never Rokarism. One of the key features of Hrestolism (to me) is hidden in the description of the Galvosti sect (Guide p.53): "Other Hrestoli schools" doesn't necessarily mean "all other Hrestoli schools", and it would be interesting to know Gaiseron's take on this issue (or whether he makes a stand for either yes or no). Assuming that at least half of the Seshnegi used to find hope in the prospect of reincarnation, the suppression of that through the Rokari cannot have been received with joy. (Joy is of course another concept that the Rokari persecute, as is Ascended Mastery.) All of these Rokari changes are undeniably logical, since neither Joy nor Ascension nor Reincarnation can be explained by the weak insights their interpretation of the scripture allows. Despite all logic, these features are what keep the less informed population enthusiastic about the religion, though. I think that Halwal and Yomili would have stood united against anyone suggesting something like this during their lifetime. Fronela outside of Loskalm is Hrestoli, but hardly Gaiseron's New Idealist Hrestolism, except for the attempts of the Count of Einpor. They may be mostly Irensavalists, though, other than the Malkioni south and east of Erontree. Not the order transplanted here from Seshnela by Jonat, though. Only a couple hundred thousand in Akem (300-400k out of 600k), Syanor, Jonatela (maybe 150k), Junora (300k - the transition to Gaiseron's way was flawed), Pithdaros (up to 100k), southwestern Tanisor (20-50k), the Castle Coast (50k), Ralios (hard to estimate, but ranking second if you take the various Arkati sects as single entities, and third if you group them), and Maniria (up to 20k), not counting what is going on in Umathela away from the Silence-damaged parts. It isn't clear how thorough the eradication of the old ways was in Loskalm (which had 120 years without outside interference, but significant internal resistance to overcome in the first 40 years or so as the relief of Siglat and companions documents) and Seshnela (a little over 2 centuries). I'd point you to Montaillou for the persistence of Katharism in the face of one of the bloodiest persecutions in church history. The Spanish inquisition went less against heretics and more against incomplete converts, a problem more prevalent in parts of Loskalm than in Tanisor. Among ancient wizards in exile, some form of Hrestolism is the norm. Those in Loskalm or Tanisor who did not conform didn't get that old. Since few powerful wizards go without apprentices as cheap sorcerous muscle, they will have propagated their ways among those who count in Malkioni populations. In Nochet, Rokari are contenders for the second largest group of Malkioni, although in the watered-down Quinpolic ways (they might say watered-up). Arkati and real (non-Loskalmi) Hrestoli are common among the Men-of-All and their sorcerers. I expect similar numbers among Seshnegi expats in Ralian and western Manirian mercenary bands. (Thinking of the Irish Catholic noble mercenaries of Spanish Habsburg in the Netherlands here for an example of significant numbers of expat "people that count" when it comes to decide on confessions in a religion.) Half of southwestern Seshnela inside the kingdom will lapse to Hrestoli ways the moment Leplain-trained zzaburi look away. Many a noble family will keep one or two overtly Rokari heirs in the land and encourage the rest to continue the real religion while adventuring in distant lands, hopefully to return with powerful allies when the time is right. Other houses who have accepted Rokarism just send their black sheep that way. The Opening and the Thaw has expanded the possibilities to take temporary service in distant lands greatly. Theoblanc is well aware of that, one reason for his well-founded distrust of the Quinpolic League. The Rokari denial of reincarnation is a very big deal, and a very good reason for outwardly docile Seshnegi to stick to Hrestolism. Maybe not quite up to a culture of martyrdom, though. Search for Ascended Mastery is another big idea that the Rokari deny, and that, too, will persist despite their brutal persecutions. Basically, that's my take on Hrestolism. I know that Peter disagrees strongly, but I think my version offers better story potential. I wrote above how and why I disagree. The Hrestoli wizard-caste knights (for lack of a better word for "men of three quarters of all") are rune lords or sorcerers (it is possible to avoid the Rune Lord career by going on the sorcerers' fast track through soldiery). The soldier caste riders aren't, they are initiate level, with the majority of the farmers standing for lay member level. I don't think that they have access to DI (other than a chance to experience Joy) or Rune Magic through pre-sacrificed spells on hold that can be triggered at will and possibly be replenished through vigils. It just doesn't seem right. And there are sorcerous ways to provide items performing just this form of magical release. A significant minority of the Loskalmi "Men of Three Quarters" might be neither walking on the way to adepthood nor to rulership but work on the magical equipment of the others of their caste. This brings up an interesting question, however - what kinds of spell-casting are expected from a Man-of-All in full gear, and what spells are expected to be pre-cast? Spells stripping away enemy protective or enhancement magic might be typical. To do this, one has to come into short missile distance, which is fine for armored riders but bad for robed wizards. Armor-bypassing offensive magic might be another common use, as are offensive spells causing some other form of impediment short of drawing blood through magic. How much of this is allowable in tournaments between magical knights?

The main usual risk on that stretch across the Mirrorsea Bay are sea trolls and boat trolls emerging from the (still somewhat secret) cave harbor at the bottom of the Shadow Plateau. Homebase to their fleet of black galleys. (I am thinking of an installation similar to the ancient Egyptian one on the Red Sea, where the pharaohs kept their wooden ships that could be disassembled and re-assembled at need.) For my own passage across the bay, I was planning on using a reported sighting of wolf pirate vessels. After the naval battle of 1616, the patrols never were brought back to their former density.

I dropped a sea travel encounter from my story of pilgrims traveling to Nochet - they would have had an overnight stay at a friendly anchorage south of the tangle where local newtlings would peddle fresh food from the marshes to ships stopping over.

Are those Eiritha priestesses adepts, or do they use sorcerous manipulation skills (other than Intensity) like they are known by Hrestoli Men of All or apprentice sorcerers? I don't think so. And I did not consider Waha Khans magical specialists, nor did I suggest that Rune Lords should be forbidden to use spirit magic from whichever source (unless taboo) or even sorcery spells with Intensity (irrelevant for HQ, but possibly relevant for RQG, and definitely relevant for RQ3 or the AIG playtest rules under which I ran a campaign). Possibly even with manipulations like Range or Duration if they aren't among the lucky ones who have 1D10 DI and hence an extraordinary closeness to their deity. Does the Pavis cult have adept sorcerers? I don't think so. Could it have some? Sure, why not, if an immigrant adept sorcerer feels it worth it to go against his philosophy and join that cult. Even though Pavis provides a grimoire, his cult is still structured like a theist cult, and City Harmony should still be on the table as a divine spell aka Rune Magic. Does the Eiritha Cult have sorcerers, even just apprentice sorcerers specializing in general sorcery? I sincerely doubt it. Other pantheons... Lhankor Mhy: initiates (cult rank: apprentice) and sages may have sorcery, spirit magic and divine magic. Lay members may have anything, and might be eligible to training in sorcery if they belong to an affiliated guild. Orlanth or Ernalda cultists can and will know sorcery if they are in appropriate guilds. They won't become apprentice sorcerers or learn advanced techniques. Non-Lunar Yelmies or Lodrili may have the same amount of sorcery. Illuminated Lunar Yelmies like Tatius are beyond any reason and might become tentacled chaotic adept sorcerer shamans who still sit at the top of a ziggurat and embody Yelm's justice with their every whim. Traditions and cults change upon contact with new concepts, and may adopt gifted or conquered magics. The change might require a lower case cult hero or two, but it can and will happen. Grimoires may be expanded by heroic effort, too. Adept sorcerers should be unable to devote to deities regardless whether they provide access to grimoires or not. Shaman devotees to deities better had be demigods in their own right, like Mistress Race uz. Same (btw) to Runepriest Lords of deities like Yelm or Orlanth with distinct cults for either. Any normal mortal cannot fulfil the time requirements, although demigods and heroes able to express multiple incarnations at a time just might. HQG p.137 states: It doesn't seem to allow acquiring these magics through active pursuit of an apprenticeship. It should be possible to worship both Orlanth or Ernalda and Kyger Litor. It shouldn't be possible to worship both Shargash and Orlanth without illumination, and even with it it should be next to impossible, even though the magic systems are compatible. I still maintain that even an Arkati or Kralori adept sorcerer cannot have more than an initiate relationship with an appropriate deity of their own pantheon, let alone some other deity. The other way around may be a bit trickyer - there might be ways to attune a grimoire within your religion even if you have developed a fetch or become a devotee. It isn't clear whether there are higher arts to sorcery that can only be learned through attunement to the teacher, as suggested by the RQ3 rules (which had the requirement of the apprentice to establish a link to the master's familiar in order to learn the higher manipulation skills). HQG makes it "a significant plot obstacle" without giving any suggestions how sorcerous orders would design them. This is vague beyond what is acceptable for RQG. Some form of POW transfer might be involved, as is typical for creating a permanent magical bond (and that's a Gloranthan reality, whether you expend POW or hero points or whichever other such currency a game system might provide).

The RQ3 concept of the manipulation skills like Multispell, Duration and Range might better remain exempt from the grasp of someone who has developed a fetch. I don't mind non-adept (and non-apprentice) use of sorcery with intensity only even by shamans, and there are of course rare spell spirits for sorcery spells rather than spirit magic which eminently fall into the realm of shamanic abilities to learn. About _adept_ sorcerers becoming rune lords of theist deities? The New Idealist Hrestoli of Loskalm have their wizard-warriors who are supposed to maintain spiritually purity even in the face of the Kingdom of War (and few will be able to maintain it). Pre- or non-Gaiseron Hrestoli sorcerers are about controlling deities, not becoming them. Arkat himself never was an adept sorcerer and only had the Man-of-All mastery of sorcery. That is a significant cut above other non-zzaburi Malkioni grasp of sorcery, but at best comparable to apprentice-level sorcery, so yes, here might be a loophole for shamans to get manipulation skills. But then their "magical organ" has already been altered and made mutable through Arkati illumination, much like the learning of Lunar magic manipulation technique requires illumination, too.