Jeff

1 minute ago, radmonger said:

A few hundred people meeting regularly in one location is a clan, not a cult. Even with Sartar's roads, you are not going to be pulling from anything like the full national population, only a single city[1].

Boldhome has a (perhaps implausibly high) population of 25,000. Once you split that between the cults in the ten books, it's hard to find room for another 60. In fact, some of the ones included are going to have a job to do of plausibly justifying themselves.

Of course, it is always GM's privilege to add that one cult you need for a scenario, or for that one player who has a fixed concept for a character[2]. But Chaosium would find it hard to interview your players and create them each their own personalised cult. 

 

[1] travelling merchants, soldiers,  and wilderness hunters and a few others will kind of be an exception here.

[2] i kind of suspect this happened with Lanbril, back when ninjas were cool.

 

Boldhome has around 10,000 people.

30 minutes ago, Darius West said:

I think I need to question this Jeff.  Many of the Thunder Brothers are named, and have their own subcults/hero cults and rune powers.  They include:

Hedkoranth, Helamakt, Elmal, Mastakos, Vinga, Finovan, Rigsdal, Destor, Vanganth, Vingkot, Yavor, Tatouth, Siwend, Starkval, and probably others too.  

These are named entities.  I agree that they are like Maruts, but they are also cults in their own rights, and it is likely that every Orlanthi clan can name at least one Thunder Brother as an ancestor, and know the secrets of their cult.   The Summon Large Elemental thing is a product of the WBRM board game, but there is more to these figures now.  They are listed in multiple publications.

So who are the Thunder Brothers, if we ask the Orlanthi? They are the Airy offspring and brethren of Orlanth, who can split the clouds so that rain can fall, shake mountains and destroy forests. They are collective of some three to sixty - once we focus on any specific Thunder Brother (except their leader, Vinga), we aren't talking about the Thunder Brothers any more.

Scribes and poets love to make lists, but for the most part this is irrelevant. Usually you get a lot of local names that just mean things associated with Orlanth - eg., Donner and Blitzen - plus some local manifestations of Orlanth or named Umbroli. Sometimes Storm Bull, Kolat, Valind, Ygg, and even Gagarth get named. But it's understood you aren't talking about them individually (except maybe Vinga). Now Vinga is a very popular subcult of Orlanth, and Vingkot has the occasional cult. Lightning Spear is one of the Four Weapons and gets cult, but the rest are just names like Prancer, Vixen, Comet, and Cupid - we talk about Rudolph or about Santa's Reindeer collectively. But when we speak of the Thunder Brothers we always are speaking of them as a collective, with maybe Vinga as the leader.

Some entities definitely aren't Thunder Brothers. Elmal is definitely not a Thunder Brother in any imagining! Same with Polestar. Nor Mastakos - he's the charioteer of Orlanth, and not part of that group (he's not a warrior or an Air God). I'm pretty sure Humakt is never listed as one either.

Those figures were listed in the HW material, we reduced them in the HQ supplements, and then decided to get rid of them almost entirely in RQ. Hedkoranth makes an appearance in the Prosopaedia and the Sartar Book as a local incarnation of Orlanth Thunderous worshiped at Roundstone Fort, as does Rigsdal (as the personal guardian of Kallyr Starbrow).

1 hour ago, Erol of Backford said:

Playing devil's advocate, I like stories of Elmal as friend but for all I have read once Sartar Sun County is established, Yemalio has more or less overshadowed Elmal and they are not really neutral as they have sided against the Orlanthi more then they have with them, at least up until the changeup in the Praxian Sun County. From say 1602 until Agarth is firmly in power in Prax it seems the Yelmalians are more pro Yelm/Lunar than anything else or seems so to me?

I forget the first battle that they fought against the lunars after 1602 but it was quite a few years later was it not?

Again, that is not really the case. First the Yelmalions fought for Sartar throughout the reign of Tarkalor and Terasarin - even against the Lunar Empire. In Prax, the Yelmalions aided Dorasor, fought against the Lunars, then accepted the Lunars under the sort-of anti-, sort of pro- Count Solanthos, The Yelmalio cult is neutral towards Orlanth, but is hostile towards the Red Goddess.

54 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

Hmm … is this a clue to the uptightness of Yelmalio? Never blown out might be a bad thing, especially from a Lunar/Nysalorean POV?

In the Grey Age, the Lightfore cult was spread in Peloria by the horse nations. As Dara Happa woke up, the nascent cities claimed that Lightfore was wrestled into a consistent path by their patron Antirius, who of course became the Lightfore god - of course the horse nation ruling class continued to worship Lightfore their way. When the Sun arose at the Dawn, at first they figured that this was Lightfore carrying the Sun Disk - and they contacted the Sun through Lightfore. But at some point, the Pure Horse People were able to contact the Sun directly, and later the Dara Happens were able to contact even more of Sun, who they realised was the returned Yelm. Such a glorious return!

But the Lightfore cult remained, among the cattle herding horse nomads, and among the hill barbarians. and among those too common to approach Yelm but too noble to follow Lodril. Nysalor made great use of the Lightfore cult (even if the cult was Neutral towards Nysalor), as they could fight in the hills and against the trolls. But fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me, Yelmalio is hostile towards the Red Goddess.

Just now, Jeff said:

So the Solar-Air rivalry is hardbaked into the setting's cosmology. Three Feathered Rivals, Rival Cousins, Uncle Sun and Vengeful Storm, all that. The dark cloud that ends a sunny day. Elmal is the result of Greg trying to imagine the Orlanthi understanding of Solar magic at the Dawn - when Lightfore was but a friendly spirit who had aided everyone survive the Darkness. Understandable - at the Dawn even Kyger Litor and Orlanth worked together. But as Time progressed, ancient mythic conflicts reasserted themselves. When the Dragon Pass folk encounter the Sons of the Sun in Peloria, they discover that mythic rivalry and it continues through time. Yelmalio is that part of the Solar Pantheon able to survive in the Lesser Darkness - the world ruled by Orlanth. Both Orlanth and Yelm are largely absent from the world in the Greater Darkness - both are in Hell and need to reconcile. But Yelmalio is still there, ever weaker, ever dimmer, but never extinguished.

Now most human societies need to straddle these ancient mythic rivals - just as the Aesir and Vanir both get worship, and devas and asuras both play their part in the Vedas. Sartar in particular needs to straddle having Orlanth Rex as the cult of rulership, but the powerful cult of Yelmalio is only neutral to Orlanth. 

 

Now King of Dragon Pass introduced Elmal as Orlanth's sidekick (he got called Orlanth's thane in KoS, but that has more wiggle-room and was also a nice gesture to David Hall who kept the lights on for Glorantha for several years). The treatment of Elmal lost all that tension- it worked in the closed environment of KoDP (which is a great video game), but it did not work for the Sartar Dynasty era setting.

2 hours ago, g33k said:

Huh.

Can you say more about this?
Or point me to prior comments that explored/expanded on this theme?

So the Solar-Air rivalry is hardbaked into the setting's cosmology. Three Feathered Rivals, Rival Cousins, Uncle Sun and Vengeful Storm, all that. The dark cloud that ends a sunny day. Elmal is the result of Greg trying to imagine the Orlanthi understanding of Solar magic at the Dawn - when Lightfore was but a friendly spirit who had aided everyone survive the Darkness. Understandable - at the Dawn even Kyger Litor and Orlanth worked together. But as Time progressed, ancient mythic conflicts reasserted themselves. When the Dragon Pass folk encounter the Sons of the Sun in Peloria, they discover that mythic rivalry and it continues through time. Yelmalio is that part of the Solar Pantheon able to survive in the Lesser Darkness - the world ruled by Orlanth. Both Orlanth and Yelm are largely absent from the world in the Greater Darkness - both are in Hell and need to reconcile. But Yelmalio is still there, ever weaker, ever dimmer, but never extinguished.

Now most human societies need to straddle these ancient mythic rivals - just as the Aesir and Vanir both get worship, and devas and asuras both play their part in the Vedas. Sartar in particular needs to straddle having Orlanth Rex as the cult of rulership, but the powerful cult of Yelmalio is only neutral to Orlanth. 

Just now, g33k said:

Honestly, I think it adds to Glorantha to have "Elmal" as a separate (but not really) thing.  The same at the core, but with some very-different external trappings (and relationships).  Yelmalio, Lightfore, Cold Sun, Last Light in the Dark, with "Hill of Gold" as a core myth; neutral towards Orlanth.  Elmal, faithful thane, trusted ally, with "Elmal Guards the Stead" as a core myth & thus an adopted Orlanthi-pantheon god.

It speaks to religious schisms and regional variants in ways that feel right in a myth-heavy world like Glorantha.

So, thank you for keeping that in the Yelmalio write-up!

I don't actually think it adds much mythic value and actually causes us to lose something important about the interplay of cults and gods. But we kept the option because there are a lot of KoDP fans!

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

There are so many Thunder Brothers, they require their own write-up in my estimation.  I seriously want to know what rune spells Finovan, Rigsdal, Barntar, Elmal and all the others get, and how they fit into Orlanthi societies.  They are more than just adjuncts to Orlanth imo.

They are the followers and tools of Orlanth. They are the Maruts who follow Indra, the howling winds and storms that follow Orlanth. The Thunder Brothers are always worshiped as a collective and as part of the Orlanth cult, usually led by Vinga (who is always worshiped as part of the Orlanth cult). They number anywhere between three and sixty, and provide the Rune spell of Summon Large Air Elemental. 

There is no Elmal v. Yelmalio. They are the same god, same archetypes, and fit in the same place in cosmic mythology. We all know Yelmalio - he's that last light that survived after the Sun went to the Underworld. He's in the night sky as Lightfore, the brightest planet in the heavens, which follows the same route as the Sun. 

In much of central Genertela, we have a network of Sun Dome temples which anchor the Yelmalio cult. We've got several in Dragon Pass, several more in Saird, one in Prax, a few in Aggar and Talastar, etc. Let's say altogether that network has about 160,000 or so initiates. That's a BIG cult. The cult really got rolling in the early Second Age, when it helped break the power of the trolls (lets call it the "mini-Darkness" following the Gbaji Wars).

After the Dragonkill War, the Hendriki of Heortland were cut off from that. And the Orlanth cult was SO predominant in Hendrikiland, their tiny Yelmalio cult found ways to claim an association with Orlanth to survive. They harkened back to the Dawn Age Orlanthi, when Yelmalio was worshiped in conjunction with Orlanth as "Elmal".

But with the Resettlement of Dragon Pass in the 1400s and the resumption of trade with Peloria in the 1500s, the truncated (Y)Elmal(io) cult came into contact with Yelm (the Lunars helped with this). They looked to magical riches of Yelm and started joining that cult - and they started a civil war in Sartar against the Orlanth Rex cult. Monrogh went to the Hill of Gold and saw the fullness of Yelmalio. Yelmalio is Neutral towards Orlanth, and as long as Orlanth respects Yelmalio's place in the world, Yelmalio can respect Orlanth's. And guess what guys? We are already initiates of Yelmalio! No need to try to tie ourselves into pretzels trying to initiate to Yelm - we are already Yelmalio!

For the sake of people who really loved the KoDP video game, we kept a small Elmal subcult as a possibility in the Yelmalio cult writeup, but as far as I am concerned, that subcult is maybe a generation away from being extinct.

8 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Sartar or Argrsth?

Anyhow, thanks.

Corrected to Argrath.

3 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Thanks @Jeff!  Even if the fine details of the fate of Bagnot are obscured, that's YGMV material anyhow.

One thing that we, mainly I, noticed is that the bulk of Argrath's forces, and his key allies and Companions, are weird Arkati westerners and sorcerers, Esrolians, Harrek and his Wolf Pirates, Praxians, etc.  Not exactly King of Sartar material.  At least, in 1627-1628.

In our campaign, that is stirring up some trouble with our largely Colymar group of PCs and the proud Leika.  All fun and good plotlines.

 

Argrath was able to get 2000 warriors to leave Sartar and march over Dragon Pass in Storm Season. That's certainly one of the largest group of Sartarites to follow a Prince outside of the Kingdom since Tarkalor. And wisely, he brought Wolf Pirates and loads of Praxian cavalry, just like in the old days. 

As for the Colymar, it is easy enough for him to show tribal ancestry. 

23 minutes ago, smiorgan said:

I hope not. I really hope that they will be interspersed with the other releases. It would make sense to have Sartar come out after the Lightbringers and the Earth Goddesses are out. And I really look forward to Sartar with that huge beautiful map! 

I should probably switch to Sartar my game by then... (At the moment I'm playing in Sun County and my players are a bunch of Solar (Yelmalio, Yelorna) and Lunar (Seven Mothers) cultists - so no luck with the cult books for them...).

 

   

The release of Sartar and Dragon Pass and the rest are freed up by the release of Lightbringers, Earth, and Mythology - all which make those books easier to handle. Sartar and Dragon Pass (which already have all their art) free up Prax, Pavis, and Big Rubble. The Lunar, Solar, Darkness, Horned God, Sea, etc. books all are on their track and not in the same lane for those others. They open up the Dragon Pass Campaign, and others.

In short, we have a metric ton of RQ that gets opened up by this.

But Lightbringers and Earth are foundational for doing more with the Orlanthi.

2 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

You are right. My apologies to all.

Whenever I run a game for people who have played DND but never played RuneQuest or Call of Cthulhu before, I have roughly a 45-60 minute overview of the rules (especially magic) and the tropes of the setting, and emphasise that combat is a two-edged sword. Then in whatever introductory adventure I do (and I have my favorites), we have a little investigation, a lot of roleplaying opportunities, and then some combat. Sometimes the combat is a duel or two, sometimes it is a loose skirmish, and sometimes it is something the players get to plan and initiate. But that teaches them the ropes pretty quickly.

If they have played Cthulhu it is easier, and if they have never played any TTRPGs it is easiest.

Argrath has promises to fulfil. 

(STORM SEASON - EARLY) BATTLE OF HEROES

Argrath leads a smaller army of some 2500 Praxians, 2000 Sartarites, and 1500 Wolf Pirates over Dragon Pass in mid-winter. It includes Harrek, Gunda, the Sartar Free Army, the Magical Union, and his Barbarian Horde. Upon hearing that the Sartarites have crossed into Tarsh, the Lunar Army quickly marches to meet the foe.

The two armies assembled outside of Bagnot. The battle was ferocious and terrible. Harrek kills Jar-eel and rips out her heart which he wears as jewelry (Harrek also loses an eye and a foot). Without Jar-eel, the Lunar army is routed and were cut down when they ran. Some 2000 imperials are casualties; Argrath loses around 1000 casualties. Afterwards, the victorious Sartarites seize Bagnot, but do not dare pursue further.

(STORM SEASON - LATE) MUSE ROOST

Argrath sends part of his army back to Sartar to put down a Telmori uprising. With a select force of chosen warriors, Argrath, Harrek, and Gunda the Guilty make a surprise raid on Black Horse Country, to fulfill Argrath’s promise to Harrek. 

And had it been any of those, there would be those 

3 minutes ago, Ochoa said:

I have started saving.
One question though, what exactly is in the Mythology book?

Specific details are going to have to wait until Marketing reveals it, but needless to say it is our (Greg and me) overview of Glorantha mythology, how to piece it all together, how to bring it down to the game level, what the cult breakdowns are, and so much more. It is my personal favorite volume.

The Rex of Boldhome is the Rex of Sartar - aka the Prince of Sartar. That's the representative of Orlanth Rex for all the tribes and cities of Sartar. This is a sacral, judicial, and rulership position. ONLY a member of the Sartar Dynasty can hold this position.

Leikan "the Mayor" is someone who works with the other guilds and temples to try to keep the city functioning in 1626-1627, and is made part of the High Council in 1627.

1 hour ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

I'm with OP - is Yelmalio or Elmal, or whatever that variant is called this year, considered a friendly cult of Orlanth?  If so, he might belong in the "Lightbringer" book.
I guess we will find out in a while.

Yelmalio is a neutral cult to the Lightbringers and is in the Solar deity book, along with Polaris, Urania, Shargash, etc.

1 hour ago, Pnick said:

 

Maybe one day this new edition of Runequest/Glorantha will be as complete and  shine as brightly as the Sistine Chapel. But I’ve given up waiting.

And for those pouring scorn on the criticism: Grognards have kept this game alive.

No Jeff you are wrong, Grognards don’t grumble for the sake of it, Grognards remember and, to put it bluntly, simply don’t have a whole life ahead of them to be perpetually sold dreams of the promised land.

I am literally giving you meaning of "grognard" ("grumblers"). Bonaparte put up with their grumbling, even made it a special privilege, because of their veteran status. That's not pouring scorn on the criticism - that's literally the meaning of the term and why "grognards" call themselves that.

33 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Grognards gotta grumble. It is the literal meaning of the word.

And grognards really grumble when a big announcement is made for a much broader audience. Sure we all knew what was going on, but we have had nearly 100k people view the twitter announcement, and some 30k people have watched the video between FB, Twitter, and YT. That is a tremendous boost to RQ.  

6 hours ago, svensson said:

Not 3 months ago, people were complaining about no new RQG content while Gods of Glorantha was being worked on. That's what I mean. I think we can consider 'the logjam' to be cleared in August if the GenCon volumes are released on time.

Meanwhile Jonstown Compendium will continue to offer us excellent content.

So I honestly don't see why some folks are griping.

Grognards gotta grumble. It is the literal meaning of the word.

44 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

I agree with most of this, including considering running away as things turn bad.  Though our group does seem to have too many D&D / GURPS / Video Game types so they hardly ever do.  Lately, we've been burning through D.I. though, I guess that's kind of the same...  (OT: this is probably an unintended consequence of the new RQG Rune Lords D.I for cheap rule)

What I don't see is fights being anywhere close to "decided" after a couple of rounds.  I'm not saying you all are lying or anything!  Not at all.  Just that something you do is very very different than what we do.

One possible difference is that we have a Humakti with a good Sense Ambush skill, a Uroxi with good Sense Chaos, a Shaman who can see the spirits, and a few PCs and familiars who settle for non-magical aid: excellent skills at Spot or Listen.  So the PCs very seldom get ambushed.  And our Humakti has the dreaded no fun at all "don't participate in an ambush" geas, so vice versa.  For most battles, both sides have a few rounds to get prepared.

Our PCs are now pretty high level, so Shield 3 / Prot 4 is common, and Shield 5 / Prot 6 is not unheard of.  That could play a role too.  (And the baddies usually have up some Shield too).

Thoughts?  I'm really interested in what about your combats make them more decisive sooner, because ours take a long time.  Even a "minor" one.

That is a LOT of defensive magic and should give the players a huge amount of survivability. Of course that tends to be the sort of thing that you can cast once, maybe twice, and then it better be off to the temple! Assuming both sides are that amped up on magic (which should be pointed out to them - that means they are regularly fighting the elite of Glorantha!), that tends to prolong fights.

And of course, even with all that defensive magic, all it takes is a critical on one side or a fumble on the other for things to fall apart really fast.

21 minutes ago, Cloud64 said:

@Jeff While you're paying this thread some attention, I have a quick question. I'm organising the Battle of the Queens for my players tomorrow evening. Your notes elsewhere have proven useful, thank you, and I am using them as my base to work from. But, there's one thing that sounds good but I'm scratching my head over what to do with it – Battle Intensity. Any elucidation gratefully received. Other stuff I'm happy to make a good guess at from the examples.

BATTLE SIZE AND INTENSITY

The size of the battle dictates its Intensity rating. Scripted battles give a set Intensity rating. To determine Intensity randomly (or if you would prefer to do so in the case of scripted battles), roll 3D6 and add the number of Battle Turns/Encounters for the size of the battle as given in Battle Size Table. For example, a Medium Battle has a random Intensity of 3D6+7. 

Battle Intensity is used primarily to determine who chooses the Skirmish Encounter the Players face each Battle Turn.

Battle Size Table

ENCOUNTERS

Each battle, from the smallest tussle between a handful of skirmishers to the largest clashes of armies, is built around the Encounter. For battles of Skirmish size, a single Encounter is the entirety of the fight. For larger conflicts, multiple Encounters are strung together through a combination of Player and Gamemaster choices. Think of these as vignettes contained within the larger battle environment; exciting highlights in between periods of amorphous chaos, nameless fear, and mind-numbing boredom.

Encounters are arranged by use of cards or a list drawn up by the Gamemaster. They are chosen by either the Players or the Gamemaster, depending on Battle roll outcomes. The Gamemaster should make up two decks or lists before the battle begins: one of Foes, the other of Opportunities. The Gamemaster should tailor the selections to the battle being fought—for instance, if there are no local militia present, then the Militia Encounter should be left out. 

Foes represent different types of enemy fighters and may be encountered multiple times in a battle. Opportunities, on the other hand, come but once, and may only be chosen when a Player rolls a critical success on their Battle roll. Opportunities are a chance to make a major impact on the battle: by seizing an enemy standard or killing an enemy commander, for example. After an Opportunity is played through, it may not be chosen again during that battle. 

The available Encounters are determined by the type of foe being fought. 

In this chapter we include foes from Sartar, Prax, and the Lunar Empire, and some from other cultures around the periphery of Dragon Pass.

Gamemasters are free to mix and match Encounters as they see fit to create an interesting variety of potential events prior to a given battle. However, once battle is joined, the actual sequence and type of Encounters is determined by a mix of Battle rolls and Gamemaster choice.

Players and the Gamemaster choose a number of potential Encounters each Battle Turn, but only one is played through. 

SELECT ENCOUNTER

After making their Battle rolls, adventurers who rolled successes take turns (from highest CHA to lowest) selecting a Foe Encounter. An adventurer who rolls a special or critical success on Battle may opt to select an Opportunity instead. Regardless of the adventurer’s rolls, the Gamemaster always selects an Encounter as well.

Once all selections are made, make an opposed roll against the battle’s Intensity rating. If the roll succeeds, the Gamemaster chooses a Foe from the selected Encounters to play that Battle Turn. If the roll fails, then it is the Commander who chooses (if an adventurer) or otherwise select an Encounter at random. Of course, if there is only one possible Encounter this Battle Turn, you may skip this step.

However, if an Opportunity has been selected, it must be chosen. If there are more than one Opportunity selected, the Gamemaster or Commander may choose between them.

A final note: if the enemy Army Commander succeeded with their Battle roll at the start of the battle, the Gamemaster may, once per battle, overrule any chosen Encounter and substitute any other Encounter—even one not otherwise available in the battle’s normal selection of Encounters! (Thus may surprise events and hidden ambushes be sprung.) If the enemy Army Commander’s Battle roll was a critical success, the enemy forces are inspired by their Passions and fight with a +25% modifier to their pertinent Weapon or Magic Skills in the substituted Encounter.

After the selection is made, the chosen Encounter is played through, as detailed below. The remaining Foes and Opportunities are disregarded for now and may be chosen again in later rounds. Foes may be faced more than once, but Opportunities, once played, may not be chosen again this battle.

6 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Usually yes, but there's an amount of exceptions. Mindless enemies (gorps, skeletons). Controlled enemies (like Commanded elementals). Cornered Chaos. Cornered PCs versus Chaos. Berserking enemies.

Those should be exceptions that prove the rule. Unless your game is all about fighting Chaos. In which case, they quickly learn why Chaos is hated.

7 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

PCs can fairly often turn a fight around though, by bringing out Rune Magic or other resources they would have  preferred to keep in reserve. Things tend to change in a fight once that Shield 6 lands.

Yes, that is why you put them into key dramatic moments of the battle, and then extrapolate from there.  

OK this has wandered far afield and there is even a thread over in RuneQuest talking specifically about running combats and battles. So unless this thread returns to the subject of the number of monsters in the Bestiary, I am going to shut it down.