Jeff

In the forthcoming Sartar Book there is a Tribal Compatability chart showing the relationship between all the tribes. There are a lot of tribes with hostility towards each other, but other than the relationship between the Telmori and several other tribes, only the Dinacoli and the Cinsina are enemies. The Malani and Colymar are hostile, but are not enemies.

On 3/30/2023 at 4:48 AM, DrGoth said:

"All diseases are caused by spirits, magic, curses, etc. I am not sure what a “naturalistic” disease would be." Jeff October 8, 2020.

It's stated in many places that diseases are caused by spirits.  Does that apply to infections as well as disease?  And, if so, what causes decay? If it's spirits, are they Malia's disease spirits. And then, does that mean decay is regarded as chaotic? And, b y many cultures a bad thing?

Or maybe my initial assumption is wrong, and not all disease spirits are Malia's?

Disease and decay are not the same thing. So all diseases are caused by spirits, magic, curses, spiritual pollution, etc. Now that's hardly a novel take - that was generally what would have been held in most of the world for most of human history.

Decay can mean a lot of things. Entropy is Chaotic, but is also inherent in Time (which many philosophers hold has chaotic origins as well). Things break down, die, and break down into their component parts. Decay is part of that process, and some living things exist off decomposition, most famously Mee Vorala. But so do many of the children of Swems and Gorakiki. None of those entities are chaotic, but plenty of farmers dislike Mee Vorala, particularly when she brings the rusts that plague agriculture! Similarly, Gorakiki is not chaotic, but how many people would be glad to be rid of mosquitos, locusts, or aphids?

39 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

That was the thinking behind my original sarcastic comment. White Hats vs. Black Hats.

I understand the thought that slavery is too icky — or too real-world sensitive — to include in a setting. I really do. It is not as if any of us here are fans of real-world slavery, chattel or otherwise. But then no one in Glorantha would do it.

But I am not a huge fan of “we are good guys, we would never; they are villains, they do it all the time — and to their own mothers!” I guess that being British, I am used to thinking that we are not good guys.

That's not why I dropped the idea of the helots - rather it didn't make sense as I really looked carefully at the development of the Yelmalio cult. Greg liked the helots idea, and I am sure there are places where that social structure exists, but Sun County isn't one of them.

45 minutes ago, Soccercalle said:

So Argrath becomes a kinslayer if he kills the leading Telmori? Or is it kinslaying only if it is in the same clan?

Given that Goram Whitefang is killed by Sarostip and his Humakti (Goram was trying to protect Temertain), I think the question is moot. That event, combined with King Kostajor Wolf-Champion (another kinsman of Argrath's) being murdered by his own great-nephew Jogar Sog means that perhaps we should be looking at a different set of kin-slaying. 

8 hours ago, Jeff said:

And who is to say that the Dragon Pass Humakt cult is not friendly towards his fellow Death God Telmor?

And in fact, in Dragon Pass, the Humakt cult and Telmor are mutually friendly. Which means regardless of how you read the  rules, Telmor initiates can initiate to Humakt without a problem. 

Remember, Prince Salinarg - whose wife was Telmori (!) - was the patron of the Household of Death, a key Humakti temple. Moreover, Prince Terasarin's daughter Tarkala was married to the Telmori Goram Whitefang, who in turn was the grandson of Onelisin, daughter of Prince Saronil (and the great-great-grandmother of Argrath).

Interestingly, the Orlanth cult and Telmor are neutral towards each other. And even Storm Bull is only hostile. 

The Humakti Duel

The nature of the Code of Humakt is such that arguments, discussions, or any sort of disagreement can be settled by a (hopefully) non-fatal duel. The cult strongly encourages such duels. The rules for these duels are few and simple:

·       Both duelists must be at least lay members of Humakt. Thus, all involved parties know that the Honor Passion will be foremost.

·       The fight is to the first fallen. After one combatant drops to the ground (e.g., through incapacitation or unconsciousness) or drops their weapon, the duel is over.

·       Any Rune or spirit magic is allowed, except for Sever Spirit. The use of allied spirits is allowed, but not that of bound spirits or other companions.

·       The loser must pay some reward to the victor, as agreed upon beforehand.

And who is to say that the Dragon Pass Humakt cult is not friendly towards his fellow Death God Telmor?

11 hours ago, Runeblogger said:

This is becoming an interesting thread and I'm getting ideas for a possible scenario.

But I have to ask: when a Telmori and another human have a child, is the child always a cursed Telmori?

Only when the mother is a Telmori?

Everyone born of Telmori parents is considered to be a wolf and automatically part of the religion. Among most Telmori tribes, marriage with an outsider is considered bestiality and is forbidden on pain of death; however, the Telmori of Sartar are permitted to marry those descended from Sartar. Those not born into the tribes must be adopted before they can join the cult. 

It is the initiation that curses the Telmori, not the birthright. Since the time of Nysalor, human initiates of Telmor are werewolves tainted by Chaos to involuntarily take wolf form each Wildday. They receive the Chaos Rune at 20% but have no other Chaotic features.

Orlanthi cannot "sense Chaos" but someone tainted by Chaos cannot initiate to Orlanth. The magic just doesn't work.

On 3/13/2023 at 11:19 PM, M Helsdon said:

The Telmori provided a loyal dedicated bodyguard for the rightful heir, and the tribe included potential heirs to the House of Sartar. The refusal of the bodyguard to protect Temertain, and their persecution by the Lunar Wulflanders perhaps as part of the suppression of the House of Sartar, and their worsening relationship with other tribes suggesting that Sartar's agreements with them (reliant on the presence of his heir on the throne) were no longer binding, and all.... suggestive. Perhaps Argrath's royal claims were more tenuous than he admitted, and their destruction removes questions over his legitimacy and removes rivals.

Argrath and Kallyr both have very thin royal claims - better than anyone else, but still not much. Neither were the child of a Prince, nor the grandchild. Kallyr was the great-granddaughter of Prince Jarolar (one of the second tier princes at that). Argrath had even less - his ties were entirely matrilineal, and his great-great grandmother was the famed Onelisin Catwitch daughter of Prince Saronil (admittedly a little more illustrious but even more distant). Temertain's wasn't great either - he was second cousin of Prince Salinarg. But at least that was a lot closer than those two.

Kallyr and Argrath are considered viable because they do have some kinship with the royal house, even if it is very distant, and they have people who will follow them.

Here's the notes on the Telmori uprising:

In 1628, encouraged by opponents of Prince Argrath, Telmori rebelled before Argrath’s army left Sartar to cross the Dragonspine. Rather than be distracted from his goal, Argrath ignored the Telmori. However, upon his return to Boldhome the following year, Argrath suppresses the Telmori uprising.

How the Telmori get suppressed is something that your campaign likely decides. Maybe Argrath sends in the Storm Bull cult and Humakti to do it, forcing the werewolves out of Dragon Pass. Maybe Argrath defeats the ringleaders and makes a new pact with the remaining Telmori. Who knows for certain, except in your campaign.

3 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Adobe (mud bricks) is dry climate architecture, needs a good roof and even with a roof sometimes needs repair because rooves leak.  (Modern RW adobe in the southwestern US is sometimes stabilized for high end construction.)

But I never have seen a comprehensive Gloranthan architectural guide.  It would be good to see the art direction.

I have quite a bit on that and have posted bits of it from time to time.

Stone is the preferred building material in Sartar, although adobe and timber are perhaps more commonly used in rural areas. Basalt, limestone, marble, and granite are all used, depending on local availability. 

VILLAGES

Though they differ in detail, most villages in Dragon Pass differ little from one another. Each village is a clan center and the headquarters of a local chief or important noble. The population of these villages is about 100–500 people each, most of whom farm, but many of whom also are crafters or the tribe’s mercenaries and retainers. Most village are surrounded by walls, of earth, fieldstone, or clay bricks. Buildings are usually of stone, mud brick (adobe), wood, or a combination of these materials. Temples in each village always include Ernalda and the local Husband Deity (usually Orlanth). All villages have a few shrines to other gods or spirits.

Each household is assigned land to farm by the clan and resides in a small complex of buildings surrounding a central courtyard called a “stead”. In much of Sartar, most buildings have at least a stone foundation. Walls can be made of stone, adobe, or wood, depending on what is available. Roofs are typically made of thatch, wood shake, or fired ceramic tile. The stead might be part of a larger village or be alone, surrounded by low walls made out of fieldstone or adobe. 

CITIES

Residential buildings in most Sartarite cities are generally of one or two stories, but they vary with the income of the residents. The poorest in the city may sleep eight people to a room, which they share with chickens, sheep, and pigs. The richest have several voluminous rooms per individual, with frescoes on the walls and carpets on the floor. Each household has its shrine to the household gods and ancestors, to whom an offering is made each morning. 

Buildings are made of three types of materials: adobe, stone, and wood. Outer walls are often whitewashed and decorated with geometric designs. The size of most buildings requires rafters to support the roof or second story. Roofs are tiled, shingled, or thatched. 

A middle-class freeman’s dwelling is a common building. This house measures from 10-20 meters on a side. If square, a shape popular among Earth worshipers, 15 meters to a side is common. Many of the larger buildings are holed, with light wells in their center. 

The bottom floor is divided into three rooms, one of which is often a shop, rented by a merchant. The central area is a general cooking and eating room, and it is here that many still have a fire pit. Such customs quickly disappear when a second story is added and fireplaces installed. There is also a part for the servant’s quarters. Furniture depends on taste and budget. The second story is usually divided into one large room, often used for entertaining and for more servant sleeping, as well as a number of smaller ones, usually private rooms for family members and close household. It is common to have a guest room.

There are two fireplaces, one in the downstairs cooking area and one in the upstairs entertainment area. Most houses have a ground floor room set aside as a privy. Food storage is kept far from this room.

Boldhome is an architectural marvel, so its buildings are described elsewhere. 

11 hours ago, DrGoth said:

Doesn't mean she won't be back.

She definitely comes back. Just takes a little while.

22 hours ago, hipsterinspace said:

Orlanth may be a reaction to Yelm, but Yelm’s shadow is well established, it is Kazkurtum, the empty emperor who reigns without justice. He is the part of Yelm who denies others when he already has enough to share, who jealously guards that which is not his to keep. The death of the sun was the clash of Yelm’s shadow, his jealousy, entitlement, and hubris, with Orlanth’s shadow, the disproportionate and impulsive violence of the storm. The lesson of the Lightbringer Quest is that both of those natures must both be reckoned with and overcome for the good of all, not just Yelm’s.

In that sense, Orlanth isn’t his shadow, he is manifested with agency rather than as a part of Yelm’s unconscious, but his Other. While the confrontation with the Other certainly exists at the level of the subconscious, it is not the unrestrained id of the shadow, it is instead the structuring superego function.

Orlanth is not Yelm's shadow. Yelm can see Orlanth to begin with.

17 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

Nothing of what follows is in the spirit of “I am right; you are wrong” — I am likely very, very wrong, but this is what I was trying to do and why …

The bit about Yahweh as storm god was just a lure to get the hook into the fish. I was not trying to hark back to a pre-monotheistic Yahweh. I was trying to pull focus from the god to the religion. It seems to me that there is more to religion than a god’s vital statistics and a list of their deeds. I know that when I was reading translations of the Greek myths as a child, I was left with no real idea of what it would be like to be a practitioner of the old Greek religion.

Although it is usual to pitch the Red Goddess as bringing the new thing and the Orlanthi as being dreadful stick-in-the-muds, I was trying to sell the idea of the situation’s being more complex than that: of there being a strand of “democracy” and directness in the Orlanthi religion & society (which IRL may have been new with mono-Yahwism) and of old-school elitism and mediation in the Lunar–Solar religion & state. That this would be reflected in the way the respective societies were organised and behaved. And after all — as @Eff likes to remind us — the Sartar rebels are the Taliban.

That whole “project” may have been misconceived — idiotic, even — but that was what I was attempting. Not “if you look at the nature and deeds of Orlanth, you will see they are more like Yahweh’s than they are like those of [insert Indo-European thunder god here].”

There's a lot in here - but first and foremost this is why I tend to ignore post written to "objectively" cheerlead one side or another. They tend to get things wrong - very wrong. Although one can certainly look at the tribes of Afghanistan to get some insight into Orlanthi - or Lunar - culture, neither side are the Taliban. The analogy breaks down the moment you look carefully. 

10 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

on that note, what do you think about the Ostrich people's version of Yelmalio? I'm interested in this unusual variant! Is it perhaps Yelorna and Yelmalio rolled into one somehow?

Hah - the Ostrich Riders! Now I don’t have the Prax cult distribution spreadsheet handy but they number maybe a thousand members. They are not participating in the greater Yelmalio cult of the plains and likely have pretty limited magic. Enough to survive as weird bird riders.

14 minutes ago, kr0p0s said:

Just seen this on the Well from @Jeff

"So we see Yelmalio where Yelm does not or cannot rule. Yelmalio was present before the Dawn. As Kargzant, he defeated monsters and ensured the survival of the horse tribes. As Antirius, he defended Yelm’s legacy and heralded his return. And as Elmal, he brought Light to the Shadowlands. Now as Yelmalio, he is the God of the Sun Dome Temples, who make sure that Light has its strongholds even in the lands of the Air and Darkness."

I think this is a succinct summary of the present Canon. The light reaches event into the furthest reaches...

Yep. At this point I think I’ve pretty thoroughly explained this. I’m happy to talk about how the Yelmalio cult functions, it’s role in South Peloria but I have no interest in going round and round in circles with people who want a different answer.

33 minutes ago, Darius West said:

To those who say Elmal's fire powers aren't useful, I say that isn't the point.  Orlanthi need to have a tame fire deity, just as Yelm cultures will have their version of a tame storm deity who provides rain.  Elmal is a deity of horses, and of guarding, and is the Orlanthi's primary troll killer.  Salamanders of any size are very useful, and spirit spells like Fireblade and Firearrow alone would make the cult worth joining, let alone when you include a gift/geas.

Again, you state this stuff over and over again, but I tell you that is not the way it appears in RQ, not the way it is going to appear in the Cults Book, Sartar Book, etc. The only Air deity associated with Yelm is Molanni aka Entekos. She basically Dismisses Clouds and Decreases Winds. 

Orlanth's primary troll killer is Orlanth or Humakt. Or maybe they can hire some Yelmalions to do the work. 

Now you are welcome to have Elmal as a Yelm analogue in your Glorantha. Go for it. But that is not how it is going to work in published works. All the Little Suns fall under the category of Yelmalio, even if they have some local variations and local names.

5 minutes ago, SDLeary said:

And in the Guide?

SDLeary

The name Elmal appears 5 times in the Guide. Now I wrote the Guide in 2012-2013, and if I were to do it again, Elmal would appear 4 times. Not once does it speak of Elmal having fire powers, although it does reference Elmal's arrow magic.

The Three Magics of Creekstream Ford: The gulping earth that swallowed the broos; Elmal’s arrows that downed the hoverers; and the Harmast Sons, who stood like a wall. 

In contrast Yelmalio appears 50 times.

1 hour ago, mfbrandi said:

Although if Elmal = Yelmalio, then there is no question of one god having fire powers and the other not. The one is the other. That is not to deny that some worshippers of the god do fire magic while other worshippers do not.

I guess what the Elmal diehards miss is that the Yelmalio cult harnesses the power of refusal, of denial. When the Yelmalians realize that they have long been ascetics in the Sheng style — able to amass immense power through the suffering of the failed mystic — they will be terrifying, indeed. When I hear that the Light Sons have traded Firespeech for silence, I am going to find a deep, dark hole to hide in.

Every geas is a gift.

Elmal does not have fire powers. I screwed up in the description in Sartar KoH.

9 hours ago, Darius West said:

So... if this is the case, who was Harvar Ironfist persecuting after he finished persecuting the Orlanthi?   Everyone knows it was holdout Elmal worshippers who wouldn't convert to Yelmalio.  There is definitely Elmal vs. Yelmalio in the lore and retconing it and pretending it isn't there is not making Glorantha better imo.  It is details like this in the lore that add depth and texture to Glorantha, and they need to be preserved not erased.

The Orlanth cult in the Far Point sought to rebel from Lunar Occupation. Harvar Ironfist used his leadership of the Yelmalio cult to establish himself as the ruler of Alda-Chur with the support of the Provincial Government, and then defeated the Orlanthi rebellion. Given that the Yelmalio cult was outnumbered by the Orlanth cult almost 4:1, it meant that the Harvar needed to be constantly disrupting their activities, demoralising them, etc, even with the support of the local Lunar garrison. It also meant that he needed to impose his will on the local Yelmalio cult to an extreme extent.

In truth, not much was written about the Far Point by Greg after the King of Sartar (which did not mention Elmal in the context of Harvar) until WF 15.

Just now, Jeff said:

No.

But then again, nor is King of Dragon Pass.

Hill of Gold or its analogue is found in all Yelmalio cults. 

5 minutes ago, Darius West said:

Is Six Ages considered Canon?

No.

3 hours ago, SJB said:

Does anyone happen to know when and where Entarios the Supporter, the Ernalda priestess at Greenstone, first saw the light of day? I first came across her in the Hero Wars supplement Barbarian Adventures published in 2001 but I wonder if she goes back to the 1970s.

That's where she first appeared.

21 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Now comes the fun one. Berensor was initiated into the Elmal cult at Famegrave, where there was a minor temple. He got caught up in the Elmal cult's conflict with the Local tribal leaders and the Sartar Dynasty, and was exiled for kinslaughter. He went to the new Sun Dome Temple in the Amber Fields and of course recognized the Elmal stuff other exiles had gathered there - and he offered worship there, and of course it was successful (he regained his Rune Points!). He swore loyalty to the Major Temple to Yelmalio there and was rewarded with a plot of land, a spear and some armor. He fought for the Sun Dome Temple against the trolls of Troll Woods, and eventually became a Light Son.

Berensor died at Grizzly Peak, fighting for King Tarkalor and the Feathered Horse Queen, along with many other Yelmalio cultists. His grandson Varthanic was initiated into the Yelmalio cult at the Sun Dome Temple. He's traveled to Prax and worshiped Yelmalio at the Sun Dome Temple there, although he found the Sun Dome cultists there to be quite backwards and extremely provincial, although the beer was excellent. 

He later traveled to Mirin's Cross, and was struck how the Sun Dome Temples maintain their identity despite the Yelm nobles from the Heartlands. The Lunar influence troubled him, and he was surprised at the semantic games the Light Priests used to avoid acknowledging Lunar supremacy. Nonetheless, the Sairdite temples had many new stories and myths. From there he went on to the Hill of Gold, where he walked those sacred grounds.

52 minutes ago, Jeff said:

That all seems right to me. Vasana was initiated into the cult of Orlanth Adventurous (Vinga) at the major temple of the Colymar tribe (as is common). As an initiate she offers worship to Orlanth at all sorts of temples and shrines to the god and his aspects throughout Dragon Pass, Pavis, and the Holy Country. Vasana can travel from Clearwine to Vesmonstran and recognise things. Normally she recognises the regalia, the accoutrements, and the songs in Storm Speech - this stuff has been carried throughout Genertela over the last sixteen centuries. 

Nathem was initiated into the Bear God cult in Old Tarsh. There is little more than a few shrines to Odayla there, and Nathem wanders widely offering worship to the Sky Bear wherever he can. He travels to Syllila where there is a large and organised cult with as many people as the entire adult population of the Tarsh Exiles. It is an eye-opener, with new stories, new myths, and more. So Nathem keeps wandering, and eventually makes his way to Fronela. There he encounters the Rathor cult - and Nathem tries worship the Great Brown Bear there. Does he succeed or is that the point where the differences are too great? Dunno, sounds like a fun part of that campaign though!

Now comes the fun one. Berensor was initiated into the Elmal cult at Famegrave, where there was a minor temple. He got caught up in the Elmal cult's conflict with the Local tribal leaders and the Sartar Dynasty, and was exiled for kinslaughter. He went to the new Sun Dome Temple in the Amber Fields and of course recognized the Elmal stuff other exiles had gathered there - and he offered worship there, and of course it was successful (he regained his Rune Points!). He swore loyalty to the Major Temple to Yelmalio there and was rewarded with a plot of land, a spear and some armor. He fought for the Sun Dome Temple against the trolls of Troll Woods, and eventually became a Light Son.