Jeff

3 hours ago, SJB said:

Does anyone happen to know when and where Entarios the Supporter, the Ernalda priestess at Greenstone, first saw the light of day? I first came across her in the Hero Wars supplement Barbarian Adventures published in 2001 but I wonder if she goes back to the 1970s.

That's where she first appeared.

21 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Now comes the fun one. Berensor was initiated into the Elmal cult at Famegrave, where there was a minor temple. He got caught up in the Elmal cult's conflict with the Local tribal leaders and the Sartar Dynasty, and was exiled for kinslaughter. He went to the new Sun Dome Temple in the Amber Fields and of course recognized the Elmal stuff other exiles had gathered there - and he offered worship there, and of course it was successful (he regained his Rune Points!). He swore loyalty to the Major Temple to Yelmalio there and was rewarded with a plot of land, a spear and some armor. He fought for the Sun Dome Temple against the trolls of Troll Woods, and eventually became a Light Son.

Berensor died at Grizzly Peak, fighting for King Tarkalor and the Feathered Horse Queen, along with many other Yelmalio cultists. His grandson Varthanic was initiated into the Yelmalio cult at the Sun Dome Temple. He's traveled to Prax and worshiped Yelmalio at the Sun Dome Temple there, although he found the Sun Dome cultists there to be quite backwards and extremely provincial, although the beer was excellent. 

He later traveled to Mirin's Cross, and was struck how the Sun Dome Temples maintain their identity despite the Yelm nobles from the Heartlands. The Lunar influence troubled him, and he was surprised at the semantic games the Light Priests used to avoid acknowledging Lunar supremacy. Nonetheless, the Sairdite temples had many new stories and myths. From there he went on to the Hill of Gold, where he walked those sacred grounds.

52 minutes ago, Jeff said:

That all seems right to me. Vasana was initiated into the cult of Orlanth Adventurous (Vinga) at the major temple of the Colymar tribe (as is common). As an initiate she offers worship to Orlanth at all sorts of temples and shrines to the god and his aspects throughout Dragon Pass, Pavis, and the Holy Country. Vasana can travel from Clearwine to Vesmonstran and recognise things. Normally she recognises the regalia, the accoutrements, and the songs in Storm Speech - this stuff has been carried throughout Genertela over the last sixteen centuries. 

Nathem was initiated into the Bear God cult in Old Tarsh. There is little more than a few shrines to Odayla there, and Nathem wanders widely offering worship to the Sky Bear wherever he can. He travels to Syllila where there is a large and organised cult with as many people as the entire adult population of the Tarsh Exiles. It is an eye-opener, with new stories, new myths, and more. So Nathem keeps wandering, and eventually makes his way to Fronela. There he encounters the Rathor cult - and Nathem tries worship the Great Brown Bear there. Does he succeed or is that the point where the differences are too great? Dunno, sounds like a fun part of that campaign though!

Now comes the fun one. Berensor was initiated into the Elmal cult at Famegrave, where there was a minor temple. He got caught up in the Elmal cult's conflict with the Local tribal leaders and the Sartar Dynasty, and was exiled for kinslaughter. He went to the new Sun Dome Temple in the Amber Fields and of course recognized the Elmal stuff other exiles had gathered there - and he offered worship there, and of course it was successful (he regained his Rune Points!). He swore loyalty to the Major Temple to Yelmalio there and was rewarded with a plot of land, a spear and some armor. He fought for the Sun Dome Temple against the trolls of Troll Woods, and eventually became a Light Son.

8 minutes ago, radmonger said:

This is true, I absolutely don't.

in play, a character gets initiated at one temple, and can worship at others. The set of such temples they can use is called a 'cult'. It will rarely be ambiguous to them which temples they have access to. If unsure, they can very likely just ask someone. people know what their religion is, and (illuminates aside) they believe it to be true. 

The exceptions are going to be things like minor cults far away, and secretive cults that hide their true nature.

That all seems right to me. Vasana was initiated into the cult of Orlanth Adventurous (Vinga) at the major temple of the Colymar tribe (as is common). As an initiate she offers worship to Orlanth at all sorts of temples and shrines to the god and his aspects throughout Dragon Pass, Pavis, and the Holy Country. Vasana can travel from Clearwine to Vesmonstran and recognise things. Normally she recognises the regalia, the accoutrements, and the songs in Storm Speech - this stuff has been carried throughout Genertela over the last sixteen centuries. 

Nathem was initiated into the Bear God cult in Old Tarsh. There is little more than a few shrines to Odayla there, and Nathem wanders widely offering worship to the Sky Bear wherever he can. He travels to Syllila where there is a large and organised cult with as many people as the entire adult population of the Tarsh Exiles. It is an eye-opener, with new stories, new myths, and more. So Nathem keeps wandering, and eventually makes his way to Fronela. There he encounters the Rathor cult - and Nathem tries worship the Great Brown Bear there. Does he succeed or is that the point where the differences are too great? Dunno, sounds like a fun part of that campaign though!

11 minutes ago, metcalph said:

The only unanswered question left about Yelmalio IMO is what's he like in Teshnos? 

<twiddle thumbs waiting for the Sky Gods book>

Now that is an interesting one - and ties in with the general downgrading of Lightfore in favor of Ehilm by the God Learners. Ehilm-Somash, Lodril-Solf,  and Aether-Zitro Argon are all easy to see, but Lightfore is hard to find there!

3 minutes ago, David Scott said:

The Elmal / Yelmalio schism is one of Glorantha's oldest arguing points. Since King of Sartar appeared, it has raged on. Greg even wrote an essay as to why he did it (The Birth of Elmal - now forty years old!).

Fortunately newcomers will read the upcoming prosopaedia and read "Elmal was worshiped by the Orlanthi at the Dawn, until contact with solar cultures revealed him to be another name for Yelmalio." and just accept it as that. They may notice that there's a small Elmal group mentioned in the GM screen pack and hopefully think as I do, that's cool, an enclave of people worshipping an old god.

Personally, I've never had this whole Elmal / Yelmalio schism affect my games. I still find it's influence a bit weird, and can honestly say as a friend of Greg's, he did too. It fits into my list of trigger words for Glorantha fans:

• Elmal / Yelmalio
• Illumination
• Arkat
• Storm Tribe / Cults of Sartar
• Sorcery
• (I'm sure there's a few more)
• Heroquest (even though we've had rules for it in some printed form for years)

All of these topics usually produce an outburst of posts about who, how, why and this is the way, etc.

(standing back now)

I find it weird as well. 

Yes.

31 minutes ago, svensson said:

Are we flogging the dead bolo lizard again? Some more? Still?

Much of this speculation will be revealed by this time next year, and @Jeff or Chaosium is going directly answer cosmological questions. They have a line of 10 books to sell us and they're not interested in spoiling the product releases.

All our questions will start getting answers come summer, so hold your Water till Fire Season, my merrie bande of trollkin.

I'd rather have this horse being flogged in its own thread, rather than showing up everywhere else!

12 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

TL;DR: Eff is right.

Over-literal verbiage now optional:

  Reveal hidden contents

But the Humakt cult didn’t have a problem with Chaos, surely, just the misapplication of death. So Vivamort and Thanatar are the big non-nos, and Mallia almost as bad (disease-victim spirits of disease as undead or the wrong kind of/misbehaving dead?), then ZZ (for skeletons & zombies).

Seven Mothers because one of them is a Humakti apostate.

Orlanth is the weird one. Very forgiving of the Humakti, that “3”. Or maybe they are grateful to O for kicking off the Forever War and keeping them in work. (More cynically, because they are both popular player character cults.)

What is the problem with Krarsht? Maybe — just maybe — the dead cultists’ tendency to fuse with the Devouring Mother (filed for future reference), rather than scurrying off to the appropriate Hell falls foul of the misbehaving dead strictures. (Or it could just be a professional thing: assassin versus counter-assassin. Nothing personal. Maybe.)

But the eternal agony of being devoured by the Bat is fine: maybe that is just going to an appropriate Hell — eternal suffering is character building, after all — it is unpleasant, but there is nothing funny going on.

Humakt is in general neutral towards most deities, except those that misuse Death or sanctify betrayal. He's friendly only to Orlanth and Ty Kora Tek. 

Humakt views the Red Goddess as an enemy and the Seven Mothers collectively as hostile. But Humakt is neutral towards Yanafal Tarnils - Humakt's opposition to the Red Goddess is not because of Yanafal Tarnils but something else, perhaps historical, perhaps cosmological - likely both.

1 minute ago, scott-martin said:

"War is the creator of all great things," Campbell says, quoting Heraclitus. "It is through tension that the new thing comes forth. It's a very complicated problem. . . . you've heard, love your neighbor and hate your enemy. This doesn't mean you shouldn't have enemies. He says you should love your enemy."

That's a loophole for CA. CA can love her enemies without offering them comfort or aid. 

I think modern Yelmalio can accept the mothers and most of them think the mothers are the whole of the way. They can even hire themselves out in the mothers' wars. But when they discover the inner dynamics, they recoil. That's not what their identity is wrapped around. They can let that identity go and become something else. Or they can cling to that identity and see the goddess as an enemy . . . and their golden rule is different from ours.

And one can embrace an outer truth while still rejecting the inner truth. And vice versa.

3 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

Fortuitously we were just playing an old Joseph Campbell lecture where he defines the vaishyas as "people of property" so here we are. From one point of view, identity, like property, is the foundation of liberty. From another, it's the eradication of property, the erosion of identity, that liberates. It's all in what one person is rebelling against and what the other has got. Satan, after all, is himself a famous liberator as well as a theologian.

IMG the inner cult of the goddess is profoundly antinomian and apocalyptic. Much like Jean Grey unbound, she is concerned with testing all propositions by setting them on fire. The truth will endure. Everything else will burn away. (Campbell talking about "prairie fire" now.) Transformed. Given a fresh start.

This is not in the service of the perpetuation of the world. There are of course, as you know, tricks of perspective here too . . . what the world means, what the self means, how they relate and ultimately which girl's mother will be bigger than other girls' (seven) mothers. People wrapped around the perpetuation of the world react with horror, outrage, disbelief. Modern CA, for example, is all about perpetuation to the point to which she will overlook just about everything but a direct assault on the systems that keep the world alive. 

We out here might concede that said systems include bestial acts but admitting this is alien to the CA sense of mission . . . the CA "identity." It requires what we gamers call an illumination. And by that point it's too late. (Campbell just asks how you know your identity.) You're liberated from the compatibility table, you can associate with certain people to get ideas from them. (Direct Campbell quote.) 

Arguably the compatibility table is the compromise as currently constructed. That can change. We've seen it.


 

And as both the Red Goddess' apocalyptic instincts and the compromise itself are both profoundly unstable and tottering in crisis, we get the Hero Wars. It is going to be up to mortals to hash this one out again.

14 minutes ago, Eff said:

Of course, that crazy old sourcebook has some weird stuff in that cult compatibility table, doesn't it? Crimson Bat cultists are neutral towards Orlanth, while Orlanth cultists are enemies of Crimson Bat cultists. They're hostile towards only four other cults in that wild book, in fact: Storm Bull, Zorak Zoran, Thanatar, and Vivamort. Imagine, if you will, a situation where you have one group of people who are studiedly neutral towards a second group and another group are frothing-at-the-mouth hostile towards them- which would you think was likely to be in the right? In fact, the first group is only hostile towards berserk murderers, vampires, and people who secretly murder other people to eat their brains, metaphorically speaking.

 

Greg and I went over the Cult Compatibility tables a few years before he passed away. The Crimson Bat serves the Lunar Empire and is pretty much Neutral towards any everyone - with the exception of the Bull, Zorak Zoran, Thanatar, and VIvamort, everyone is just Bat Food, and not worthy of any specific hostility.

But you are welcome to have your Glorantha. But this is how Greg and later I put it together for these publications. 

10 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Well she groups the Red Goddess with the likes of Zorak Zoran rather than Mallia, but yes, the Chalana Arroy cult is hostile towards the Red Goddess cult. Not the Seven Mothers (who is merely Neutral), not even the Red Emperor (who as Yelm Imperator is Associated), but the Red Goddess cult of illuminated Lunar Rune Masters. That's simply there.

And putting the Lunar apologetics aside, the Red Goddess is profoundly dangerous. She has brought Chaos back in the world, and has violated the Cosmic Compromise. At the same time she turns the wheel of cycles and offers spiritual liberation - that includes illumination that this is  neither inherently good or evil, but simply is. But Chalana Arroy - like all the Lightbringers - views the Red Goddess as an Enemy or at least Hostile to the cosmos. That also simply is.

Whether the danger that the Red Goddess represents is outweighed by her spiritual illumination is an open question. For those who follow the Lunar Way, the answer is clearly yes. For those that uphold the old Cosmic Compromise, the answer is not so clear, although those clustered around Orlanth answer that the answer is most definitely no. 

The Lunar Empire itself manages to straddle this for the most part, finding ways to deal even with cults hostile to the Red Goddess (but at least neutral towards the missionary cults). But a few cults - such as Eurmal, Heler, Humakt, Storm Bull, Valind, and Orlanth - are intransigent in their refusal to even accept the Red Goddess' existence. 

And this is the Gbaji/Nysalor dichotomy again. IF you accept the experiences of the Lightbringers and their associates, the Red Goddess is as evil as any Chaos cult, just as Nysalor was Gbaji. And yet, the Lunar Heartlands are well-governed and until recently have enjoyed more than a century of tranquil peace and great cultural accomplishments. Few residents of the Heartlands ever see Chaos monstrosities or features. So who are you going to believe - the cults of the Old Gods or your own eyes? 

16 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

If Chalana Arroy, the most merciful and "good guy white hat" cult on Glorantha, is actively hostile to the Red Goddess, and groups her with cults like Cacademon and Mallia, then the Red Goddess is not "problematic".  By this take, she is objectively evil and must be destroyed.  Which seems a profound shift from my understanding of earlier, more "nuanced" views of Glorantha.  YGMV.

This is not necessarily a bad thing - it makes it simpler for authors, PCs, GMs, and campaigns to focus on the Prax / Sartar / Esrolia homelands, and the typical Air / Earth cults, for which there is much more material both available and upcoming.  I understand that Chaosium has limited resources and must focus their energies.

Well she groups the Red Goddess with the likes of Zorak Zoran rather than Mallia, but yes, the Chalana Arroy cult is hostile towards the Red Goddess cult. Not the Seven Mothers (who is merely Neutral), not even the Red Emperor (who as Yelm Imperator is Associated), but the Red Goddess cult of illuminated Lunar Rune Masters. That's simply there.

And putting the Lunar apologetics aside, the Red Goddess is profoundly dangerous. She has brought Chaos back in the world, and has violated the Cosmic Compromise. At the same time she turns the wheel of cycles and offers spiritual liberation - that includes illumination that this is  neither inherently good or evil, but simply is. But Chalana Arroy - like all the Lightbringers - views the Red Goddess as an Enemy or at least Hostile to the cosmos. That also simply is.

Whether the danger that the Red Goddess represents is outweighed by her spiritual illumination is an open question. For those who follow the Lunar Way, the answer is clearly yes. For those that uphold the old Cosmic Compromise, the answer is not so clear, although those clustered around Orlanth answer that the answer is most definitely no. 

The Lunar Empire itself manages to straddle this for the most part, finding ways to deal even with cults hostile to the Red Goddess (but at least neutral towards the missionary cults). But a few cults - such as Eurmal, Heler, Humakt, Storm Bull, Valind, and Orlanth - are intransigent in their refusal to even accept the Red Goddess' existence. 

10 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

I thought Sun County fought with the Lunars at the First Moonbroth? Sorry if I misunderstood this. Understood the Count has killed a few of their runelords... but that is a sort of anger managment hormone issue rather than an anti-Lunar vendetta from what I have read. (good stuff)

The Sun Domers didn't show up to Moonbroth. That was the Lunar Empire with its Sable, Grazelanders, and dragonewt mercenaries against Bisons, Impalas, Rhino Riders, Agimori, Zebra Riders (aka Pavis Survivors), Basmoli Berserks, newtlings, Oakfed, and even a contingent of broo.

Just now, Soccercalle said:

How many (appr) among Lunar citizens believe that the 7M made a great deed to save the country/people but consider the Red Goddess/Emperor as evil (maybe a necessary evil)?

Few if any. The Red Goddess is at the center of the Lunar religion - and by definition, all Lunar citizens are initiates of the Lunar Way.

5 minutes ago, Soccercalle said:

Interesting. To prefer the Seven Mothers to the Red Goddess seems like to prefer the Soviet Union administration to the ideals of Socialism. Or is it that people understands the desperation of the seven heroquesters that wanted to save Dara Happa/Peloria but dislike their solution?

The Seven Mothers' great deed was untouched by Chaos. The same cannot be said to be true for the Red Goddess herself.  

2 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Grouping the Red Goddess in with those others is a very significant change from how our group has played Glorantha, and the Red Goddess's mission, for decades.  Our Glorantha has varied! 

Hopefully the upcoming Lunar cults book will clarify the official vision.  Looking forward to it.

The Red Goddess is a profoundly problematic deity. Plenty of cults are find with the Seven Mothers and other Lunar deities, but then draw the line at the Red Goddess. A few are the reverse - associated with the Red Goddess but friendly to even hostile with other Lunar cults. 

On 3/3/2023 at 10:10 AM, mfbrandi said:

Sure, and nothing I say should or would be adopted by anyone else.

There are some really fun things: Chalana Arroy is neutral to Thed, the Bat, and Nysalor, but draws the line at the relatively innocuous Primal Chaos, the untainted power of random change. I guess the demonization of Thed and Nysalor hadn’t reached its current level, yet. (Although some pretty harsh things had been said about chaos, already.)

Chalana Arroy is the Goddess of Mercy. The only cults she is hostile or an enemy of are Cacodemon, Krjalk, Mallia, Pocharngo, Primal Chaos, Red Goddess, Thanatar, Vivamort, and Zorak Zoran. Everything else can be healed. Even Thed, the Bat, and Nysalor could be healed. But the others - especially Mallia, Pocharngo, Primal Chaos, and Vivamort - are beyond healing.

Interestingly, the Red Goddess is on the short list of hostiles. A quick review suggests that of the Lunar cults, she is friendly only with Etyries (she's Neutral with the rest). Perhaps the Merciful Goddess is on to something?

This was in another thread, but I think it is perhaps interesting enough to justify its own thread:
 

So who are the Thunder Brothers, if we ask the Orlanthi? They are the Airy offspring and brethren of Orlanth, who can split the clouds so that rain can fall, shake mountains and destroy forests. They are collective of some three to sixty - once we focus on any specific Thunder Brother (except their leader, Vinga), we aren't talking about the Thunder Brothers any more.

Scribes and poets love to make lists, but for the most part this is irrelevant. Usually you get a lot of local names that just mean things associated with Orlanth - eg., Donner and Blitzen - plus some local manifestations of Orlanth or named Umbroli. Sometimes Storm Bull, Kolat, Valind, Ygg, and even Gagarth get named. But it's understood you aren't talking about them individually (except maybe Vinga). Now Vinga is a very popular subcult of Orlanth, and Vingkot has the occasional cult. Lightning Spear is one of the Four Weapons and gets cult, but the rest are just names like Prancer, Vixen, Comet, and Cupid - we talk about Rudolph or about Santa's Reindeer collectively. But when we speak of the Thunder Brothers we always are speaking of them as a collective, with maybe Vinga as the leader.

Some entities definitely aren't Thunder Brothers. Elmal is definitely not a Thunder Brother in any imagining! Same with Polestar. Nor Mastakos - he's the charioteer of Orlanth, and not part of that group (he's not a warrior or an Air God). I'm pretty sure Humakt is never listed as one either.

Those figures were listed in the HW material, we reduced them in the HQ supplements, and then decided to get rid of them almost entirely in RQ. Hedkoranth makes an appearance in the Prosopaedia and the Sartar Book as a local incarnation of Orlanth Thunderous worshiped at Roundstone Fort, as does Rigsdal (as the personal guardian of Kallyr Starbrow).

As an aside, there have been previous version of the Yelmalio cult WIP circulated publicly. It is worth mentioning that there have been revisions since then.

As an aside, there have been many changes to the WIP manuscripts since they were last circulated publicly. There are more cults than listed, and many of the cults were revised since we circulated them.

31 minutes ago, radmonger said:

 

Not sure what we are disagreeing about; that is exactly what it means to not  be'full cults'. They don't have their own independant temples, or magically-enforced initiation status. The RQ;G rules about leaving and joining rune cults do not apply. They do not have their own entry in any planned cults book. They are not playable cults to be chosen by a player; noone should be writing 'initiate of  thunder brother #43' on their character sheet.

Orlanthi are not monotheists and are perfectly capable of worshipping multiple deities at the same temple, as most real-world polytheist religions do. They just have temple wyters who do a bit more visible and obvious magic than most real-world religions claim to. This includes magically knowing who is, and isn't, a cult initiate.

The distinction between aspects and distinct deities only comes up once you go beyond a simple shrine. OT and OA are aspects as they can share a temple and have everything magically work out. in contrast, Buserian and Irripi Ontor are canonically known not to be aspects of each other, despite their many similarities.

This is demonstrated whenever the lunar empire stations its imperial clerks in the local knowledge temple. It doesn't matter how long that arrangement continues, you still have two distinct groups of people, not one unified organisation.

I do look forward to the 100-volume 'sub-cults of Sartar' that will no doubt come out one day. But I fear the audience for that might be somewhat limited.

 

 

 

There's a Cults of Sartar chapter of the book that has a dozen or two minor cults.

2 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

One one reading, "Yelmalio" was created by Nysalor. He is the bright spear wielded to wound Kyger Litor at the Battle of Night and Day. Prior to that, nobody had heard of the Cult of the Cold Sun, or built Sun Dome Temples to honour him. Just putting that out there.

Certainly the Broken Council supported and encouraged the Yelmalio cult. That was a time of Light shining in the hills and the dark places. Yelmalio's followers brought the Light to the Shadowlands and broke the resistance of the Heortlings and trolls. And Light cults were able to cooperate and see the One during that brief exciting time. 

But at the edge of the Light, new shadows gathered. Gbaji, Arkat, Zorak Zoran, and more. The light of Nysalor was extinguished, although once again Yelmalio did not submit.

But at this point, this thread is for discussion of the announcement and of the Cults books as a line. If people want to talk about specific cults - please create threads for it!