Jeff

Babeester Gor is not specialised in fighting Chaos - she fights whatever threatens the Earth with equal vehemence. She does not have specialised Chaos-fighting magic. That's pretty much the province of Storm Bull and Kyger Litor.

I suspect they support whoever is Queen, without being faction-oriented.

Yelmalio has advantages for the Earth Priestesses. He is a husband-protector and thus associated (and subject to her magic like Inviolable). He's pledged to defend them. He's in competition with Orlanth for the privilege, which gives a counterweight against Orlanth. But his cult is small enough that it has no independent power base that make the cult a "peer" (like Orlanth, Lodril, Argan Argar, Issaries, Lhankor Mhy, and even Humakt). One way of looking at Yelmalio is that he is a secondary husband to Ernalda, of lower status than Orlanth, but a rival for her attentions.

The Little Sun tradition in Esrolia is just one of many smaller cults that fills a niche. Esrolia has lots of them - remember this is a densely populated land with a diverse population. Heck there are 1500 adult Teshnites in Esrolia as well.

There are no remaining loyal thanes. The old Elmal cult is gone. My population estimates in SKoH and SC were wrong and based on an error that Greg corrected me about.

Now I am emphasising this stuff more strongly because thanks to KoDP and Storm Tribe people started imagining Elmal as the "Friendly Paladin" cult. Which the above passages definitely are not. Or this one as well: "Jarosar Longarrow, also called Hothead, was easy prey for the wiles of the Lunar king. Treachery among the tribes came to the fore when the Elmali clans refused to help him. He reigned only four years, from 1565 to 1569. Yet even in this short time he followed dynastic tradition by building a permanent road from Jonstown to Isle Dangerous." Or this: "Compare the Grazer’s conservatism with that of the Sartarite Sun worshipers. Their original god Elmal was crushed under the culturally rich and materially successful Pelorian Sun religion, which eventually proved itself so enticing to the Sun‑worshiping hill folks of Sartar that the Tanahart Clan destroyed itself with kinstrife during the reign of King Jarolar, fighting to say which god was their god." There is some clumsiness in the Making of Gods essay above, as it does not make it clear we are dealing with two waves of contact between Elmali and lowland Peloria. The first is in the First Age in the wake of the defeat of the Suns of Son, the second is in the Third Age after the foundation of the Kingdom of Sartar.

I recommend a careful reread of King of Sartar: "The withdrawal of the nomads revealed a greater threat: the native Dara Happan Solar religion which covered all the regions previously occupied by the nomads. The impact upon the Theyalans is recorded, but the crushing splendor of the great golden towers of the Dara Happan Sun God was especially strong upon the Elmali. The Theyalans recognized that Yelm, the Dara Happan Great God, was the manifestation of their own Emperor, an enemy of Orlanth. The Orlanthi also realized that Yelm was also the Sun God. Although no battle was fought pitting Yelm against Elmal, the overwhelming material and magic from the lowland religion slowly enriched the upland cult. The enrichment was at first in ways which did not matter at all, for the Orlanthi ways said nothing about them. So gold was the metal most used among them for non‑decorative items. Later, some of the Elmal clans adopted lowland ways because they were more effective, such as when they started using the heavier Lod‑plow, or began weaving gold threads into their tapestries. Once the Eyetooth Clan brought in the antesmia statue. They did it because they were rebelling against their king, and they wanted to be able to bring a Sunspear down from their god, and were willing to pay eternal worship and tribute to a foreign deity in order to succeed. Tarkalor was the youngest son of Prince Saronil, who was very old or already dead at this event. He was looking for a way to make a name for himself, and had been dragged into a feud with Kitori clans. He sought allies among the enemies of his father, and promised the disgruntled Elmali that they could have their own lands, and the chance to make their own rules, if they would help him in his task against Darkness. They did, and as a result of their powers the Kitori were smashed, and their survivors ran away into the waste places. The conquered lands were divided among the victors. The best were given back to the beastmen, and the rest to humans. The Volsaxi Tribe was begun, and the Sun Dome Temple too. Monrogh, the first Son of Yelmalio, swore loyalty to Tarkalor when he became king, but no other count has. Monrogh Lantern was the son of Jarosil, the son of Venharl, of the Running Fox Clan. As everyone knows, he had the Peculiar Vision at his initiation, but unlike all before him he saw the portents come true, recognized opportunity, and risked all to achieve it. He alone of hundreds since the Dawn succeeded and established the Temple. Monrogh is the one who traveled to the Sun God to find the truth which was needed. He traversed the worlds, and met with the elf lords and the wandering souls who had still been seeking the vision. They were assembled as the Witnesses, who have brought their magics to the cult. Monrogh did not know the name of the god for whom he searched, but when he returned to this world he brought back Yelmalio. This deity was already known among the elves, and was said to be the wounded body of the Sun limping across the sky (perhaps even the immortal part, since it was not in the Underworld with the Emperor.) He recited the List of Visionaries, whose works had prepared the way for the liberation of Yelmalio among humans. The success of Monrogh at attaining the truth attracted the rest of the Elmal worshipers who wanted to join the new Sun religion. They were the first converts. The number of converts grew quickly, and Monrogh organized a band under Varthanis Brighthelm to accompany Tarkalor’s kinsman, Dorasar, to the ancient city of Pavis. He was so much more popular than Dorasar (and successful against the trolls of the Big Rubble) that half the surviving tribes asked him to lead them. Varthanis also chanted the List of Visionaries which included Arinsor Clearmind, a famous lord among the dragonfriends. The old religious/social conflict of the traditional and innovative Sun worshipers had weakened many kingdoms throughout Peloria before. Tarkalor managed to disarm it and strengthen his position at the same time. Whether Tarkalor was conscious of what he was doing we do not know, and he did not tell." Elsewhere Greg confirmed to me that: "Prince Jarosar was fourth, who was called Hothead. He was the son of Jarolar. He found the Stone of Two Colors. He built a great road. He fell to poison, from a friend’s hand." Referred to the Elmali. The Prince was killed by one of his own Elmali bodyguards (similar to Indira Gandhi being killed by two of her own Sikh bodyguards.

If you read through the Making Gods essay in KoS, the Elmali cult were not Friendly Neighbourhood Paladins according to most Sartarites. They were separatists, kinlayers, Lunar allies, and regicides, responsible for the deaths of least one tribal king and a Prince of Sartar. The Yelmalio revelations made the Elmali far less problematic as far as the Kingdom of Sartar was concerned. They could be their own thing, allied to Sartar but not a part of it.

But going back to the original question about Yelmalio in the Holy Country, he is a minor god, but present. No Sun Dome Temples or Yelmalion-dominated tribes though.

Mythically it was appropriate to understand the Orlanthi of the Dawn. That was the extent that Greg cared about Elmal. But KoS made it clear that by the Hero Wars Elmal was recognized as the Yelmalio we all know. Greg was working on his Harmast materials, set in the First Age. In fact, from about 1991 to 2012 or so, Greg had very little interest in the Third Age = his focus was the First and to a much lesser extent the Second Ages. It was working on the Guide that brought Greg back to the Third Age. And this was the huge problem with Thunder Rebels and Storm Tribe, and the whole Hero Wars line - materials that were intended for the First Age got repurposed and packaged into a rules system that few of the writers or the editors even understood. Worse yet, Greg was not the editor on that material - that was someone who had a VERY DIFFERENT view of Glorantha than Greg (and did not play RPGs, which showed). Needless to say, once that person was removed from the process, things looked very different.

Then make it easier for yourself. The canon for Chaosium is Chaosium publications. That way we can skip the Issaries and Moon Design publications (except for those that are now Chaosium publications). That way you can say Sun County and King of Sartar are canon, and Storm Tribe is not. To me these "canon" discussions are silly - I have 55 years of Glorantha in my office, from Greg, from Sandy, from myself, and others. The goal with the current edition is to present that text into a cohesive way that that lets RuneQuest and other games be played in a rich and deep setting that can be built upon for many years to come. But for whatever reason, it always comes down to Elmal. Like Templars in an Umberto Eco story.

Not for a very long time. Certainly not since 2009 at the latest. Heck, it is arguable that there was no canon back in the Issaries Inc times, as Greg certainly didn't feel restricted by anything that was published under the Issaries imprint.

I was curious what you were basing it off. Obviously not RQ, but the SKoH stuff I wrote. OK. But as a creator, I am perfectly entitled to say that I don't think the stuff I wrote in SKoH really fits the setting we've put together since the Guide to Glorantha. I've said for years that SKoH is not canon, and Heortling Mythology was NEVER intended to be canon.

Yes. Of course, as I see it the hidden epic that was reconstructed was Yelmalio. So during the Second Age, we had a network of thriving and vibrant Yelmalio temples from Prax to Fronela. But with the Dragonkill War this was broken, disassociated. Individual temples were left to be autonomous, and much was lost or stolen. In Hendrikiland, the local Yelmalio cult became little more than a Spirit Cult associated with the larger Orlanth cult. The cult fled to Dragon Pass after Belintar became ruler (Heortland had no need for a small Fire/Sky deity, when Lodril was available for that position). That little cult came into contact with the vibrant Yelm cult of Peloria and many abandoned our little cult for Yelm. Others revolted against the Orlanth Rex cult, in betrayal and revolt. Monrogh saw through the loss, and liberated the lost Yelmalio who was behind our little cult all the time. He revealed the Many Suns of the Sun Dome temples, and restored the Sun Dome network! The shadows and clouds dispersed and we could all admire the Light of Yelmalio!

The best published material on Second Age Dragon Pass is going to be the Guide and the History of the Heortling Peoples.

Most of those things actually got done by Orlanth cultists. Let's think of where they weren't: The Horse Triarchy: These folk had the Sky Horse (aka Yelmalio) as their tribal patron. They worshiped horses, held them as holy - and also worshiped Hippoi and Hyalor, as the specifically horse deities. They are one of the few groups that did not end up relocating to the Sun Dome Temple, probably because for them the Horse element was more important than the Sky. Troll Fighting: Folk specialised in fighting against the Trolls. Although the Hendriki were long allied with the Only Old One, they had their Light-worshipers there in reserve. The cult was preferred by the Only Old One to more powerful Fire and Light cults. Solid infantry fighters: As a small but cohesive cult in a sea of Orlanthi, the Yelmalions were always better at being cohesive and solid infantry fighters. This goes back to the Second Age. Its not magical, it is something that the cult has done to be able to punch above its weight.

So when we think about the cults in Orlanthi society, we get a bunch of clusters networked together: Around Orlanth, we have the Lightbringers, Storm Bull, a few other storm gods, and some specialists (Mastakos, Odayla, Voriof, etc.) or strange connections (Yinkin, etc.). And we get Humakt, friendly but alone. Around Ernalda, we get the other Earth deities (Maran Gor, Ty Kora Tek, Asrelia, Babeester Gor, Grain Goddesses, etc.), we get Orlanth and the other husband gods, some specialists and strange connections. Orlanth and Ernalda are tightly connected, as are some of the other cult as well. And then we get all sorts of little localized cults that might be tied to one of these clusters. You could create a nice handy relationship map that visually displays this all.

Greg had very little to do with that writeup. And Book of Heortling Mythology was filled with draft ideas from us without any editing. I am sure I have said many times that Greg was ambivalent about publishing that for exactly that reason (same with Arcane Lore).

There's all sorts of concepts jumbled together there. So Sun County - the Praxian Sun Dome Temple - is an outlier. It is the frontier of the frontier. The temples in Dragon Pass and South Peloria are likely more typical of the cult. "Storm Tribe" - to be honest, I hate that term as a label for the Orlanthi pantheon. Greg and I played around with calling them the Tarkarlings ("High Free Ones"), but that's just a band-aid. Remember, in Glorantha the gods are real. Always start there. So there is a Yelmalio - we can interact with him in worship and on the Hero Plane. Yelmalio is associated with Ernalda (!) and her daughter Aldrya, so he is tied in through the Earth Temples as one of the Husband-Protectors. He's known at Clearwine and Three Emeralds, even if he doesn't directly receive much cult activity.

I wrote the S:KoH writeup. In retrospect I got Elmal wrong (and I had serious doubts about it when I was writing it - but at the time I wanted it to link with KoDP). So let me make it clear - if I was to rerelease S:KoH, I'd change that.

And your source is?

Yeah, and with perfect 20/20 hindsight, it was completely over the top. Shargash in Peloria - especially by the Third Age - is a second tier cult. 75k cultists tops. Now that's a lot - but comparable to the Antirius, Lowfires or Polaris, rather than much smaller than cults like Yelm or Lodril, let alone the Seven Mothers (which has more than ten ties the cult of Shargash). He's a war god and a city god, and by the current Wane his cult has been forced to accept not only the supremacy of Yelm, but of the Red Goddess. Alkoth is definitely comparatively diminished in 1625 compared to 225. This of course was part of the problem posed by GRoY - it was filled with cool information, but was sent some 14 centuries ago.

As I think I probably wrote earlier in this thread, about 1% of the Esrolian population worships Yelmalio. Given the large population of Esrolia, that means the total number of Yelmalio cultists is large - probably around 10,000, which is about half again more than in all of Sartar. But Esrolia has ten times the population of Sartar, so it actually means the cult is far less prevalent Esrolia than Sartar, despite the greater absolute numbers. Yelmalio in Esrolia revere the Light and the Little Sun, and has the same connections to elves, same obligation to protect the Earth goddesses, etc. It is just less significant. There are about as many Eurmal clowns and tricksters in Esrolia as there are Yelmalio cultists, and the cult is just one of many smaller cults in Esrolian society.

No matter how you slice it, the pre-Monrogh Elmal cult had far less magical power and range than the post-Monrogh Yelmalio cult.

None of the Little Suns or Cold Suns have fire magic (hence the common name). And gets Command Horse from Hippoi.