Jeff

Greg strongly disliked Thanatar (and almost NEVER incorporated the cult in anything he wrote after Cults of Terror). But Thanatar is there and present, although it is unlikely to make much of an appearance in stuff I write.

Which is fine if you want to do that in your campaign. But at this point, you are talking about your own very idiosyncratic versions of the cults, which means this conversion is likely to just spin round and round in circles. Personally, I find all the player character Cults intriguing and interesting, and very playable. I have only one cult that I have no love for, but resisted Greg's suggestion of cutting it out entirely - and that's Thanatar. All the rest - from Aldrya to Zorak Zoran, Gorgorma to Uleria - all can be fun and interesting in the right campaign.

That is wildly non-canonical. You can go with however you want in your Glorantha of course, but it does mean that you will likely have a lot of work in front of you if you want to use any of the material coming down the pike that is set in the Holy Country.

Just because a tactic is "accepted" does not mean it is Honorable. There is a lot of pressure from Orlanth, Humakt, Yelmalio, and Yanafal Tarnils for war to be Honorable. But Honorable is not always practical, and in the end immediate need is more pressing than the demands of Honor. And when that happens, you have a choice - compromise your Honor (and get the Passion reduced) or refuse.

Greg wrote the RQ3 writeup, and Waha's lack of much healing magic is something he wrote several essays about (including one for cults). In RQ2 Healing spirit magic was double cost, in RQ3 Greg just restricted it to 1 point as there were too many easy ways to get around that. In RQG, Greg and I let Waha have Heal Wound as part of the Common Rune magic package, figuring that the 1 Rune Point cost meant Waha cultists had access to healing magic, but it would be very expensive (and at the expense of more broadly useful spells such as Shield or Summon/Command Earth Elemental, or associated spells. But the key point is that having Waha be comparatively weak on healing magic is there from the start.

Greg's take was because Eiritha is his mother and is always present, Waha can always go to the Herd Priestesses for friendly spirits who can heal. Greg insisted that was something key to both the cult and the culture - and I agree. Waha is the Butcher, the Taker of Life (so that we might live - food, rather than combat), and this limits the spirit magic his followers can get. But note that they have Heal Wound as common magic, and so they can always call upon the god to be healed. But of course, that requires a Rune Point plus magic points rather than just magic points.

Honestly, this is pretty tedious. You think Waha is underpowered. Fine. But Waha is one of the cults Greg actually wrote up, confirmed that's how he wants it, and is precisely how it should be in RQG. So this is a case where YGWV, but I think this thread is pretty much over unless people have something new to say. Jeff

The Sartarites, during the Lunar Occupation, often resorted to dishonourable tactics in order to fight against the Lunar Army. This was a classic case of the Loyalty Sartar or Hate Lunar Empire passion being pitted against Honor. There's a reason the Humakt cult was not deeply involved in the rebellion. One gains no honour in attacking a foe from an ambush! Killing prisoners is viewed as deeply dishonourable. But the Liberation of Boldhome, Dangerford, Battle of the Queens, Sword Hill, and of course Battle of Heroes were not ambush battles. As we enter the Hero Wars, the Sartarites are far more likely to attack a Lunar army force with a barrage of spells and spirits, followed by a cavalry charge, than with a militia ambush.

1). It can or it can supplement it (so Loyalty Tribe AND Loyalty Boldhome). The inhabitants of Boldhome are mostly members of Sartarite tribes. Tribe Boldhome Aranwyth 350 Balkoth 200 Balmyr 350 Cinsina 500 Colymar 550 Culbrea 550 Dinacoli 150 Dundealos 250 Kheldon 900 Kultain 150 Lismelder 100 Locaem 200 Malani 300 Sambarri 350 Telmori 450 Torkani 300 Alone 200 Aldachur 350 2). Love is correct for Family, Loyalty for Clan.

Babeester Gor is not specialised in fighting Chaos - she fights whatever threatens the Earth with equal vehemence. She does not have specialised Chaos-fighting magic. That's pretty much the province of Storm Bull and Kyger Litor.

I suspect they support whoever is Queen, without being faction-oriented.

Yelmalio has advantages for the Earth Priestesses. He is a husband-protector and thus associated (and subject to her magic like Inviolable). He's pledged to defend them. He's in competition with Orlanth for the privilege, which gives a counterweight against Orlanth. But his cult is small enough that it has no independent power base that make the cult a "peer" (like Orlanth, Lodril, Argan Argar, Issaries, Lhankor Mhy, and even Humakt). One way of looking at Yelmalio is that he is a secondary husband to Ernalda, of lower status than Orlanth, but a rival for her attentions.

The Little Sun tradition in Esrolia is just one of many smaller cults that fills a niche. Esrolia has lots of them - remember this is a densely populated land with a diverse population. Heck there are 1500 adult Teshnites in Esrolia as well.

There are no remaining loyal thanes. The old Elmal cult is gone. My population estimates in SKoH and SC were wrong and based on an error that Greg corrected me about.

Now I am emphasising this stuff more strongly because thanks to KoDP and Storm Tribe people started imagining Elmal as the "Friendly Paladin" cult. Which the above passages definitely are not. Or this one as well: "Jarosar Longarrow, also called Hothead, was easy prey for the wiles of the Lunar king. Treachery among the tribes came to the fore when the Elmali clans refused to help him. He reigned only four years, from 1565 to 1569. Yet even in this short time he followed dynastic tradition by building a permanent road from Jonstown to Isle Dangerous." Or this: "Compare the Grazer’s conservatism with that of the Sartarite Sun worshipers. Their original god Elmal was crushed under the culturally rich and materially successful Pelorian Sun religion, which eventually proved itself so enticing to the Sun‑worshiping hill folks of Sartar that the Tanahart Clan destroyed itself with kinstrife during the reign of King Jarolar, fighting to say which god was their god." There is some clumsiness in the Making of Gods essay above, as it does not make it clear we are dealing with two waves of contact between Elmali and lowland Peloria. The first is in the First Age in the wake of the defeat of the Suns of Son, the second is in the Third Age after the foundation of the Kingdom of Sartar.

I recommend a careful reread of King of Sartar: "The withdrawal of the nomads revealed a greater threat: the native Dara Happan Solar religion which covered all the regions previously occupied by the nomads. The impact upon the Theyalans is recorded, but the crushing splendor of the great golden towers of the Dara Happan Sun God was especially strong upon the Elmali. The Theyalans recognized that Yelm, the Dara Happan Great God, was the manifestation of their own Emperor, an enemy of Orlanth. The Orlanthi also realized that Yelm was also the Sun God. Although no battle was fought pitting Yelm against Elmal, the overwhelming material and magic from the lowland religion slowly enriched the upland cult. The enrichment was at first in ways which did not matter at all, for the Orlanthi ways said nothing about them. So gold was the metal most used among them for non‑decorative items. Later, some of the Elmal clans adopted lowland ways because they were more effective, such as when they started using the heavier Lod‑plow, or began weaving gold threads into their tapestries. Once the Eyetooth Clan brought in the antesmia statue. They did it because they were rebelling against their king, and they wanted to be able to bring a Sunspear down from their god, and were willing to pay eternal worship and tribute to a foreign deity in order to succeed. Tarkalor was the youngest son of Prince Saronil, who was very old or already dead at this event. He was looking for a way to make a name for himself, and had been dragged into a feud with Kitori clans. He sought allies among the enemies of his father, and promised the disgruntled Elmali that they could have their own lands, and the chance to make their own rules, if they would help him in his task against Darkness. They did, and as a result of their powers the Kitori were smashed, and their survivors ran away into the waste places. The conquered lands were divided among the victors. The best were given back to the beastmen, and the rest to humans. The Volsaxi Tribe was begun, and the Sun Dome Temple too. Monrogh, the first Son of Yelmalio, swore loyalty to Tarkalor when he became king, but no other count has. Monrogh Lantern was the son of Jarosil, the son of Venharl, of the Running Fox Clan. As everyone knows, he had the Peculiar Vision at his initiation, but unlike all before him he saw the portents come true, recognized opportunity, and risked all to achieve it. He alone of hundreds since the Dawn succeeded and established the Temple. Monrogh is the one who traveled to the Sun God to find the truth which was needed. He traversed the worlds, and met with the elf lords and the wandering souls who had still been seeking the vision. They were assembled as the Witnesses, who have brought their magics to the cult. Monrogh did not know the name of the god for whom he searched, but when he returned to this world he brought back Yelmalio. This deity was already known among the elves, and was said to be the wounded body of the Sun limping across the sky (perhaps even the immortal part, since it was not in the Underworld with the Emperor.) He recited the List of Visionaries, whose works had prepared the way for the liberation of Yelmalio among humans. The success of Monrogh at attaining the truth attracted the rest of the Elmal worshipers who wanted to join the new Sun religion. They were the first converts. The number of converts grew quickly, and Monrogh organized a band under Varthanis Brighthelm to accompany Tarkalor’s kinsman, Dorasar, to the ancient city of Pavis. He was so much more popular than Dorasar (and successful against the trolls of the Big Rubble) that half the surviving tribes asked him to lead them. Varthanis also chanted the List of Visionaries which included Arinsor Clearmind, a famous lord among the dragonfriends. The old religious/social conflict of the traditional and innovative Sun worshipers had weakened many kingdoms throughout Peloria before. Tarkalor managed to disarm it and strengthen his position at the same time. Whether Tarkalor was conscious of what he was doing we do not know, and he did not tell." Elsewhere Greg confirmed to me that: "Prince Jarosar was fourth, who was called Hothead. He was the son of Jarolar. He found the Stone of Two Colors. He built a great road. He fell to poison, from a friend’s hand." Referred to the Elmali. The Prince was killed by one of his own Elmali bodyguards (similar to Indira Gandhi being killed by two of her own Sikh bodyguards.

If you read through the Making Gods essay in KoS, the Elmali cult were not Friendly Neighbourhood Paladins according to most Sartarites. They were separatists, kinlayers, Lunar allies, and regicides, responsible for the deaths of least one tribal king and a Prince of Sartar. The Yelmalio revelations made the Elmali far less problematic as far as the Kingdom of Sartar was concerned. They could be their own thing, allied to Sartar but not a part of it.

But going back to the original question about Yelmalio in the Holy Country, he is a minor god, but present. No Sun Dome Temples or Yelmalion-dominated tribes though.

Mythically it was appropriate to understand the Orlanthi of the Dawn. That was the extent that Greg cared about Elmal. But KoS made it clear that by the Hero Wars Elmal was recognized as the Yelmalio we all know. Greg was working on his Harmast materials, set in the First Age. In fact, from about 1991 to 2012 or so, Greg had very little interest in the Third Age = his focus was the First and to a much lesser extent the Second Ages. It was working on the Guide that brought Greg back to the Third Age. And this was the huge problem with Thunder Rebels and Storm Tribe, and the whole Hero Wars line - materials that were intended for the First Age got repurposed and packaged into a rules system that few of the writers or the editors even understood. Worse yet, Greg was not the editor on that material - that was someone who had a VERY DIFFERENT view of Glorantha than Greg (and did not play RPGs, which showed). Needless to say, once that person was removed from the process, things looked very different.

Then make it easier for yourself. The canon for Chaosium is Chaosium publications. That way we can skip the Issaries and Moon Design publications (except for those that are now Chaosium publications). That way you can say Sun County and King of Sartar are canon, and Storm Tribe is not. To me these "canon" discussions are silly - I have 55 years of Glorantha in my office, from Greg, from Sandy, from myself, and others. The goal with the current edition is to present that text into a cohesive way that that lets RuneQuest and other games be played in a rich and deep setting that can be built upon for many years to come. But for whatever reason, it always comes down to Elmal. Like Templars in an Umberto Eco story.

Not for a very long time. Certainly not since 2009 at the latest. Heck, it is arguable that there was no canon back in the Issaries Inc times, as Greg certainly didn't feel restricted by anything that was published under the Issaries imprint.

I was curious what you were basing it off. Obviously not RQ, but the SKoH stuff I wrote. OK. But as a creator, I am perfectly entitled to say that I don't think the stuff I wrote in SKoH really fits the setting we've put together since the Guide to Glorantha. I've said for years that SKoH is not canon, and Heortling Mythology was NEVER intended to be canon.

Yes. Of course, as I see it the hidden epic that was reconstructed was Yelmalio. So during the Second Age, we had a network of thriving and vibrant Yelmalio temples from Prax to Fronela. But with the Dragonkill War this was broken, disassociated. Individual temples were left to be autonomous, and much was lost or stolen. In Hendrikiland, the local Yelmalio cult became little more than a Spirit Cult associated with the larger Orlanth cult. The cult fled to Dragon Pass after Belintar became ruler (Heortland had no need for a small Fire/Sky deity, when Lodril was available for that position). That little cult came into contact with the vibrant Yelm cult of Peloria and many abandoned our little cult for Yelm. Others revolted against the Orlanth Rex cult, in betrayal and revolt. Monrogh saw through the loss, and liberated the lost Yelmalio who was behind our little cult all the time. He revealed the Many Suns of the Sun Dome temples, and restored the Sun Dome network! The shadows and clouds dispersed and we could all admire the Light of Yelmalio!

The best published material on Second Age Dragon Pass is going to be the Guide and the History of the Heortling Peoples.

Most of those things actually got done by Orlanth cultists. Let's think of where they weren't: The Horse Triarchy: These folk had the Sky Horse (aka Yelmalio) as their tribal patron. They worshiped horses, held them as holy - and also worshiped Hippoi and Hyalor, as the specifically horse deities. They are one of the few groups that did not end up relocating to the Sun Dome Temple, probably because for them the Horse element was more important than the Sky. Troll Fighting: Folk specialised in fighting against the Trolls. Although the Hendriki were long allied with the Only Old One, they had their Light-worshipers there in reserve. The cult was preferred by the Only Old One to more powerful Fire and Light cults. Solid infantry fighters: As a small but cohesive cult in a sea of Orlanthi, the Yelmalions were always better at being cohesive and solid infantry fighters. This goes back to the Second Age. Its not magical, it is something that the cult has done to be able to punch above its weight.