metcalph

1 hour ago, EricW said:

So is Hrestoli initiation interchangeable with riddler illumination, in terms of protecting you against the consequences of sorcerous wrong action? Does Hrestoli initiation provide protection against theist spirits of retribution? 

No.

The Hrestoli avoids loss of Rightness because he is acting Rightfully according to his other caste (the one which Hrestol established).  The Wizards on the other hand have never liked this and seek to disinguish the Rightness of the Hrestoli from the Rightness of others.  Their research is still ongoing.

For Daga, I think he would most likely be worshipped in Fonrit (in order to dry out the Elf Woods).  He might be another name for Sikkanos. 

28 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

(I imagine Iphara isn’t getting much worship either.)

I think she would be worshipped by the Zabdamar of the Sea of Fog. 

2 hours ago, JRE said:

We have the Arkati as an example of illuminated westerners, and with the limited information available it appears that meddling with gods weakens the caste benefits, to the point that caste is not a dominating factor in Safelster as in other Western lands.

Or perhaps the Arkati practice their caste in secret and do not rely on the traditional western castes.  Instead every form of Arkat forms its own caste (Liberator, Savior, Chaosbane, Devil, Great, Peacemaker and Destroyer) with its own exotic caste magic.

There is an alternative caste of sorceror noble which is found in the Castle Coast and the Eastern Isles.  Other societies touched by the God Learners or the Malkioni in distant past (Vormain, Fonrit, Fronelan Orlanthi) might have their own versions of the traditional western castes.

2 hours ago, JRE said:

I suppose in Carmania only the traditionalists, mostly wizards, keep the caste benefits while most of the others prefer the flexibility of theism, while I am sure there are still traditionalists in the other castes. Which makes Carmanian Right wizards highly sought in the Lunar Empire as powerful spellcasters.

One can worship Gods and keep Caste with good caste magic as the Seshnegi amply demonstrate.  I have a feeling that Caste Magic is much more limited than spirit or rune magic for every day needs (heal wound, bladesharp) and so only the Brithini and the Vadeli learn Caste Magic for those ends.  What the non-magician castes would use Caste Magic for IMO are exotic sorcery effects that cannot be easily duplictaed by other magics.

For example, a warrior might know some caste magic that allows him to:

• resist  any non-sorcery magic by at least 2 pts.
• add 2 points damage (up to the maximum critical weapon damage) to any chosen weapon of Malkioni design.
• adding 2 hitpoints to his general HP for determining how much time he has left before he bleeds out etc.

(I'm just spitballing here)

2 hours ago, JRE said:

 Because unlike theism, where you can remain true to your deity, even if society rejects you, caste and sect is a social construct more than a divine one, so I propose you can have only one.

Caste is something that exists in Glorantha.  They are not social constructs but logical solutions to the ideal society made real in the World of Forms.  A society can't one day decide that the nobles be allowed to do one thing and the soldiers another without consequences,  To change the definitions requires an heroic incursion into the World of Forms to create a new solution.

ANother point to bear in mind - if being illuminated can prevent a decrease in Rightness then could one use Illumination to increase Rightness?

I doubt it's a question of becoming illuminated and being able to break all the rules.  It's more of a process of spiritual reflection and experimentation.  A Zzaburi who on becxoming illuminated decides to sacrifice to the Gods is still going to face loss of rightness.  The Arkati are illuminated sorcerers, yet there are rules that even they follow.

Piety or lack thereof of Malkioni countries (My opinion).

The Malkioni as a whole are quite pious.  Those that aren't sorcerers, that is.  Among the nobility however, there is a cynical custom of calling in the Wizards to get out of a tough spot with respect to their gods (ie having sworn an oath of which they now repent). 

Loskalm, I've avoided discussing before now because it's complicated.  The Man-of-All attitude towards the Hidden Mover could be considered pious.  But I don't think the Men-of-All for the most part are sorcerers.  Their magical power comes from a variety of sources such as practical god learning, possibly caste magic etc and is more geared to the heroic path rather than the studious path of a wizard.  The few Men-of-All who are trusted enough to be wizards treat sorcery as a tool to benefit their fellow Men-of-All.  I think most of the wizards in Loskalm (although they are Idealists) don't actually follow the Men-of-All path and start their sorcery from a very early age.    It's that the top ranks of their orders are reserved to the Men-of-All who direct the order's resources into supporting their fellow Men-of-All (and if the real Wizards complain about this, they quickly find out that the consequences can be unpleasant).

As for the God Learners, they were motivated by several factors.  The first few centuries were a period of exploring the new horizons caused by their discoveries (such as the Abiding Book, the defeat of the Waertagi, the free seas etc).  The restoration of Rightness to Seshnela and the destruction of the Dark Empire has been described as a crusade in the past and there still is a religious dimension of the war.  The warriors and magicians in the war were sincere but to describe them as pious in doing so is I think a step too far as there's nothing in their religion that mandates a war

9 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Are both the high and low temples for Lodril and the low fires?

I had the idea that the High Temple was for savage Lodril and the Low Temple was for the civilized Twins.

9 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Are there others Great Temples to Lodril in the Holy Country or Sartar or Prax (not interested in the Lunar Empire) and what would the population be? There are cult members in Prax and so where is the temple?

There is or was a temple to Lodril in Nochet.  The main son of Lodril in Dragon Pass is Quivin but he was defeated by Maran Gor a long time ag.  In Prax, Lodril makes his influence felt through the Oakfed cult (psychotic pyromomanics).  

9 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Can anyone describe the architecture or is it all rough igneous rock caves? Would dwarves have helped create it or would they be enemies of sorts? Lodril and his sons are worshiped in their distinctively terraced “ten-block pyramids”.

Initially it was rock caves but I think the architecture would now be a mixture of Jrusteli and Holy Country buildings carved out of lava specially summoned for the purpose.

9 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Where is Lodrilela [the Land of Fire]?

Pamaltela IIRC.

20 minutes ago, JRE said:

I hate recurring to the dictionary again, but Revelation is "a fact that people are made aware of, especially one that has been secret and is surprising." Which I believe applies to Malkion, no matter how you consider his place in the Malkioni religion, which anyway will vary significantly among the sects. I would hope that not only prophets reveal things.

You are using a non-religious definition of revelation in order to justify the religious usage of piety to describe the Malkioni.  If I have been made aware of the four colour proof or the mass of the Higgs boson, it does not follow that my acquisition of such knowledge is a religious experience.  The sorcerers of the Malkioni do not believe in the Invisible God in order to do magic, they *know*.  There are valid philosophical arguments about the theory of knowledge (to wit "if the Wizards all start from the same facts and logical principles, why do they end up splintered into numerous schools of thought that hate each other?").  That is why I believe the use of the word piety to describe the Sorcerer's attitude towards his magic is a poor one.

38 minutes ago, JRE said:

A zzaburi shows his piety by using the revelations of Malkion to support the other castes, as directed by the talars or set in the laws of his caste. Casting spells is his role. But also the proof that his path is the right one, and humans can impose their will on the universe.

Except that Malkion is not a prophet of a god (yes, I know he has been described as one in the past) but a philosopher presenting logical proofs.  So revelations is not quite the appropriate word to use here.

8 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

Is anyone able to locate where the lighthouse was? There are some great scenarios brewing up here.

Thanks yet again!

The Lighthouse is a mountain south of the Low Temple.  It can be seen on the map in the Guide p252 which also has the following information:

Quote

Lighthouse Volcano: This dead volcano was
used as a navigational beacon by the Waertagi
and their Jrusteli successors. It died as a result
of the magical wars of the Second Age.

Guide p255
 

Just now, Godlearner said:

The confusion was with what familiars were in RQ3.

Why not say that then?  

3 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

Which confused things to no end later on. These "familiars" were basically servants in animal form. I guess in RQG you may be able to use them as any other spirit can be used/partnered as well.

I'm not seeing the confusion.  There's a big distinction between bound spirits and animal spirits (sacrifice for rune magic etc) and the bound spirit familiars in RQ2 have spells which can be cast as the owner desires (listed in the spells section as "known by <familiar's name>"

7 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

I'm confused. What exactly are you referring to on p250?

If it's merely binding a spirit into an object, I wouldn't call that a "familiar" - that's merely a bound spirit.

Sorry, the wrong reference was posted:

Quote

Spirit Binding
1 Point
Ranged, Permanent, Passive
This spell is used to bind spirits into familiars or magical
objects: see the Binding Enchantment spell on page 249
and Binding Spirits into Animals on page 250 for more
information. Binding spirits into familiars demands the use
of special cult-bred animals described in the Spirits chapter.
Magical objects for holding spirits can be made using the
Binding Enchantment ritual (page 249), others can be
obtained from a temple or while adventuring.

RQG p265

And bound spirits in animals have been called familiars as far back as RQ2.  Examples include:

Griffin Mountain.  Numerous appearances of familiars in the statsblock such as Littlefist (Bound spirit in small monkey familiar).  37 instances.  Only 7 allied spirits are bound as familiars.

Pavis: Threshold to Danger: 1 instance (p145)

A fetch may or may not be part of oneself (I suspect I depends on the tradition), an allied spirit certainly isn't.  For familiars, the RQ rules are in RQG p250.  There are also Awakened Beasts described in Weapons and Equipment p44-46 although they do not have a mental link with their companion.  

Do the Malkioni have familiars and the like?  Almost certainly.  Snow Hares are specifically mentioned in W&E p45 as the favourite for Awakened Beasts in Fronela and I doubt they meant the non-Malkioni part.  Priests, Rune Lords and Shamans of the non-sorcerous cults in Malkioni lands will have access to Allied Spirits and Fetches.  

That just leaves the sorcerers...  

I think it's most likely that as part of his initiation ceremony, the Yanafali will have to do a heroquest in which he fights his former master.  With his victory, he has transformed and is not affected by Humakt's Sword Curse.  

8 hours ago, JRE said:

 

Finally, I find comments that people do not have piety when they use the main proof of their deity existence, or that they do not believe in their own religion a value judgment that we do not do with other magic traditions. 

The Invisible God is not a God that is worshipped but something that exists.  Is a scientist pious because he believes in the existence of Quarks?  Is a Doctor pious because he only eats food with low cholesterol?  As for whether the other Malkioni are pious: they do not believe in the Invisible God - they believe in the Wizards.  

1 minute ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

Mmm sorcery is manipulation of the nature / runes / powers

sorcery is not malkionism

sorcery is a logical use of the world to obtain expected effect by yourself

but a good use of sorcery m, by the right people named by your prophet, is piety

(my opinion of course)

I don't think that the Malkioni sorcerors are particularly pious.  They do sorcery for the Good and restrict themselves to sorcery because that makes them better at it (points to Lhankhor Mhy as an example of what happens if sorcery is mixed with rune magic).  Their attitude to the caste laws is not that it is morally wrong to break them but doing so weakens their magic.  Many will be fanatically obsessive about observing the laws but when observing others breaking those same laws will respond in a variety of ways (snide and cutting putdowns, remonstrations to do better, malicious gossiping etc).

38 minutes ago, JRE said:

The three examples of familiar I listed for orthodox malkioni were Book, staff/wand and engraved iron breastplate, and that mainly because almost all sorcerers in the guide to Glorantha sport one, and I think it is a cool alternative, a kind of Gloranthan version of Westeros Maester's collar. 

For me, calling books, wands and breastplates familiars is to warp the traditional understanding of the term.  There's very little sense in the material that we have of the paraphernalia actually being intelligent and moving of their own accord among other known familar attributes.  If it is to aid the Malkioni in having more powerful magic then inscriptions and the like IMO would be a better way to handle it.

For example, the runic breastplate (Guide to Glorantha p50 for those of you who are in the dark) rather than make it intelligent, I would just say the runes are individual enchantments that give the the sorceror a bonus with any spell that uses that rune.

That said, it's your campaign so feel free to do what you want.

5 hours ago, radmonger said:

If you want something for that 97% that is immediately playable, and balanced with Rune Magic , simply say Caste Magic is, in rule terms, Rune and/or Spirit Magic. You get it by attending a temple, can cast it either at will or about once per season, and so on. You just need to write the 'cults' of Dronal, Horal and Talar.

My own (idle) thinking is that they are a fusion of shamanic gifts and sorcery spells with Rightness acting as a Geas.  A common (to all castes) caste magic would be the ability to cast Mend Flesh only on oneself, using the largest caste lore skill as the chance of caste magic success.  They are castable so long as one has the necessary magic points.  They are not learnable but rather enchanted by a local wizard (in exchange for cash, service or a favour).

5 hours ago, simonh said:

I think familiars are entirely consistent with Malkioni theology. Clearly the creation of a familiar requires spiritual and magical exercises that are necessary in order to prove the magician’s dominance over the spiritual and material worlds. Any Malkioni magician who has not demonstrated their superiority in this way cannot be taken seriously.

 

Leaving aside the correctness of your thesis - there's a big leap from "consistent with" to All Malkioni magicians must do this to be "taken seriously".

3 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Can anyone remind me where the magic crystal rules are for RQG? I know they are in a preview PDF, which I have, but how can others get this? Is it available to download somewhere (or did the crystals rules get published somewhere that I forgot about?)

 

Weapons and Equipment p119+

4 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

How about instead: When sorcery is written up completely, giving the advanced sorcerer a new and different capability  to aspire to?  Just as shamans have different capabilities from rune priests?

 

From the hints about Caste Magic, they do.

22 minutes ago, Trotsky said:

Hi everyone, hope you can point me in the right direction.

After the Dragonrise the dragon coiled around the Red Moon. Where can I find out more about this?

Think you are conflating two different events.  The Dragonrise of 1625 (which involved the Brown Dragon) and the future battle of Moonfall (which involved Sh'hakazeel).  Details on the later battle can be found in King of Sartar (last parts of Argrath's Saga which commentary elsewhere).

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

There are no rules that explain how Sorcery and crystals interact. 

The Crystal rules in Elder Secrets did have some crystals being useful for sorcery.