metcalph

6 hours ago, JRE said:

If you take the Jack of all trades adventurer types, sorcery certainly does not do much for the effort required. But what if you have a sorcerous support, one in each ten warriors, for instance, but at a ratio much higher than the wizards assigned to the military.

The trouble that post could also be filled by a magical specialist in either rune or spirit magic, who are much more common on ground and more effective than your sorcery specialist fighter.  You mention that a sorcery fighter is more likely to cast their magics on other people but that also applies to the magical support specialists of other kinds - HeroQuest RPG even had an Ernaldan subcult for combat support.  

6 hours ago, JRE said:

Add Sorcerous long duration bonus to your short duration spirit and rune magic, and you have a big benefit, just at the cost of having 10% less frontline combatants (though maybe effective second line ones). I am thinking of magics such as Boon of Kargan Tor, Neutralize Armor or Ward against weapons, which can have significant effects with long durations

To get RAW for 50% chance for the above spells requires 50% writing, three spell skills, two Runic Knowledges (Death and Stasis) and two Techniques (Summon and Dispel).  The Runes and Techniques alone is four seasons, the spells another three.  All this is becoming significantly costly timewise for a warrior who studies in sorcery, so much so that he'd be better off not getting involved in combat at all.  As for the magic, he's going to boost nine other warriors.  Let's say that he has 30 magic points.  That's lot for somebody in the Colymar.  That's about 3 magic points of spells each which is barely better than the other warriors' own magics (bladesharp 3 etc).

The numbers aren't stacking up.  To be effective, the sorcerer has to be in the role full-time, which proves the Malkioni reasoning about Caste.  If you want the Malkioni warriors to have sorcerous combat effects then the appropriate mechanism is, I think, Caste Magic and Rightness (My own thinking: treat the Rightness Score as a Free INT and assign sorcery spells to taste).   Or you could give them a Hrestoli Runespell that gives them the temporary runic knowledge of a specific rune and +10% to spell skills per magic point expended in the Runespell.  Which has the added advantage of getting up the nose of the nearest Wizard.

1 hour ago, Godlearner said:

Is there enforcement of this? Do the Rokari seek out those from lower castes and persecute them? 

Here we really get into legal philosophy.  The Rokari Wizard has an obligation to uphold Caste.  If he doesn't, he loses Rightness and becomes magically weaker.

Not acting contrary to caste is simple enough.

Encouraging others to break caste (ie by teaching them sorcery) is reasonable but the lines in the sand start to become less defined.

Doing nothing while somebody else visibly breaks caste?  If he's a weak peasant, then the answer is clear.  But what if he's a powerful noble?

Having a vague clue that someone or somewhere is possible breaking caste.  A few excitable wizards might think action is necessary but others might want more evidence before they are moved to act.

And of course, following your caste so harshly that it oppresses others and causes them to break caste.  Nothing "wrong" here.

17 minutes ago, JRE said:

In game terms, as this is the Runequest forum, I would propose that in Malkioni society you may have a non-wizard learning some basic forms and runes. However that learning will be limited and under wizard supervision.

If we are talking about the Seshnegi, I doubt they would teach sorcery to anybody of a lower caste than himself.  The wizard would lose Rightness for breaking Caste or enabling its breach.  A Hrestoli or an Arkati (in seshnela) would know of sorcery and be willing to teach it to others but this is secret society type hijinks.  

17 minutes ago, JRE said:

As sorcerous efficacy requires the maximum free INT, that makes those that learn sorcery less likely to use spirit magic. That would allow learning and using material manipulation spells for artisans, detection spells for traders or sorcerous combat boosting spells for wizard assistants among the warriors.

Okay, here's where I have a problem.  Sorcery is simply not a parallel source of magical power in the way that Spirit and Rune Magic are.  One has to devote time and effort in it to be anywhere good at it.  A non-caste Zzaburi learning a sorcery spell has a magic that has a low chance of success and is limited by literacy.    For the effort anybody puts into sorcery, the person choosing more conventional magics is going to come out ahead.   For example a warrior with boost damage is going to be at a disadvantage when he's up against somebody with True Sword or FirebBlade.  Likewise if a warrior is going to depend on sorcerous healing, he's going to end up like Monty Python's Black Knight before he gets anywhere good with it.

So is sorcery completely useless to non-Zzaburi?  No.  What you should be looking at is the what magic would be useful to them that cannot be easily duplicated with spirit or rune magic.  For the Loskalmi, there's contact with the Invisible God.  

1 hour ago, Darius West said:

And here I was thinking they were kinda canon...

"This is not intended to be a finished product, and is subject to change by Greg at any time for any or no reason whatsoever"

Middle Sea Empire p2

16 hours ago, Darius West said:

If the God Learners had always followed the Orlanth Pantheon, but used a practice of Malkioni Rightness on top of it, why did then need to steal myths from the Orlanthi to hero quest with?  There would be no need to do so.  They would know all the myths already, and had a head start on the Orlanthi because the God Learners knew about hero questing, and few Orlanthi in that period would know about hq-ing at all.

The myth that the God Learners stole was the Lightbringers Quest which had been identified during the Gbaji Wars by Harmast Barefoot.  People (including the Malkion) have worshipped the Orlanthi Gods long before this without knowing this secret.  The LBQ was uncovered as a result of Orlanthi HeroQuesting by Harmast.   Contrary to what you say, the Orlanthi did have HeroQuesting in that period and were one of the two main practitioners of it, the others being the Arkati.  The God Learners didn't get into HeroQuesting until the destruction of the Autarchy circa 740 ST and subsequent looting of Arkati secrets. 

6 hours ago, Darius West said:

Where does the Atroxic Church fit in all of this?  In HQ Ethilrist is a leader of the Atroxic Church.  I was under the impression that HQ lore was still Glorantha?

Atrox isn't HQ lore but Hero Wars RPG lore. 

The Church no longer exists and Ethilrist really only believed in himself.  

Atrox may still be in Glorantha but I strongly doubt that anybody in Black Horse County has heard of him.

5 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

As was stated in the other thread (Worship in Malkioni lands - RuneQuest - BRP Central - The Chaosium forums (basicroleplaying.org)) Zzaburi use sorcery. The other castes suport the worship of the Invisible God, but may worship cult and spirits as well. The question I have here is do any Malkioni, except Zzaburi use sorcery? Is it prohobited? Is it proscribed? Or is it encouraged? How difficult, and how expensive would it be for an Adventurer, or just a tradesman, to purchase a casting of sorcery?

 

This is really my speculation rather than anything hard and fast.

The Seshnegi nobility could ask a sorcerer to teach them and the latter would be screwed if he refuses.  In practice because sorcery is so difficult and at odds with the noble's lifestyle, few nobles actually bother.  If they wanted quick power, they would worship a demonic ancestor (like Kraljiid Guide p417) and the only people able to stop them are the other nobles.

The Loskalmi Guardians are trained in sorcery.  Their sorcery tends to be limited in scope and most of their magic would come from an Ascended Master.  The Men-of-All are quite good in the sorcery they know but still rely on Ascended Masters and stuff they picked up from the heroquests.  Their wizards are quite skilled after many years of practice but their nobles tend to be the same as the Men-of-All.

Based on the published material, the Black Arkati reserve sorcery for the Illuminates among them.  I think that other colleges might permit sorcery training much earlier but as a general aid to becoming illuminated among other school goals.

As for the cost, Weapons and Equipment has costs for teaching on p118

16 hours ago, Darius West said:

No, this makes no sense to me.  If this was true, then Arkat wouldn't be considered a Traitor by the Malkioni for joining Humakt.  In fact Arkay would likely have worshipped Humakt for most of his life since becoming a Hrestoli. 

That's correct.  There's multiple possible answers for that.  One is that Arkat was not a Horali but a Man-of-All worshipping the Invisible God.  In any event, you are using an little known event that occurred about at least thousand years ago to determine what Malkioni society must be like now.  But the Malkioni today don't really have any clue about how Arkat broke faith or why it was received so badly.  The Seshnelans would probably say that is what comes of being a Man-of-All and that is why you should trust them, unlike for example a Horali Humakti.  The Arkati would say he was practicing Common Sense.  The Loskalmi don't really care about Arkat.

16 hours ago, Darius West said:

Similarly why would there be Orlanthi resistance to missionizing as it says on The Middle Sea Empire pp34-35. 

Because the Middle Sea Empire (remember that it's obsolesent in terminology about missionizing) wasn't about converting the natives, but acquiring the right to rule their lands and the ability to investigate their mythology from a position of power.  Over time, places like Teshnos and Fonrit would have become Malkioni countries if the God Learners hadn't destroyed themselves first.  

16 hours ago, Darius West said:

And why would the Malkioni have needed to infiltrate other societies to "God Learn" their hero quests if they already practiced them? 

They didn't practice them.  They practiced similar religions but weren't satisfied with what they had.

16 hours ago, Darius West said:

Then on page 38 of The Middle Sea Empire we see that the Emanationists take a very dim view of the "pagans and their spirits", and are encouraged to completely destroy them and their belief systems.  This is an odd comment, considering that the Malkioni have always worshipped the same gods according to some people. 

The Emanationists probably believed the Monomyth gave them the true forms of the Gods that allowing the subjects of their Empire to continue to worship indigenous versions was an error.  They weren't trying to stop their subjects from worshipping the Gods, they were trying to ensure they worshipped the correct Gods.

16 hours ago, Darius West said:

Then on page 41 we see that the God Learners were apparently quite happy about destroying the Pagan Worldview.  How can this be, if they are partaking of it, and allegedly always have?  There are too many things that don't fit the facts. 

Well as I've pointed out to you, the MSE has a lot of language that it no longer relevant.  RuneQuest has gone back to the earlier version of the Malkioni as presented in Cults of Prax, Cults of Terror and  Wyrms Footprints.  For example

Quote

One of the early acts of the God
Learners was to bring together many peoples who had,
despite Waertagi monopolies, discovered various aspect
of ships and boatbuilding and sailing. These made the
cult of Diros which was soon subjugated within the cult
of Wachaza when the troubles with the Waertagi started.
The Waertagi naturally wished to keep their monopoly
and tried to discourage the Jrusteli with destruction
and curses. The Jrusteli fought back using the skills of
their newly adopted war god, Wachaza.

Glorantha Sourcebook p86

That's pretty hard to reconcile with a supposedly montheistic culture, no?

16 hours ago, Darius West said:

This is not to say that I dislike the idea of Rightness or Caste Magic, but the notion that Pagan gods are routinely worshipped in Malkioni areas seems extremely far fetched when Pagan is unquestionably a pejorative term and the whole idea flies in the face of the existing literature and established lore.

Except that pagan is only mentioned once in the Guide (p127) which is legacy text from RQ3 about an event in the Dawn Ages.  It is not used when describing the Malkioni relationships with the Barbarians and not even in the context of the Seshnelan Warrior Societies (who are practically Hsunchen in origin).

16 hours ago, Darius West said:

For a start, why would the Westerners essentially piggyback onto the Orlanth pantheon, and not have their own specific deities that they control the institutional structures of? 

Because the Westerners basically acquired the Orlanthi pantheon back in the Storm Age after Zzabur expelled them.  But unlike other gloranthans, the Seshnegi were always trying to make their gods bigger and better.  As far back as Cults of Prax, the Seshnegi 

Quote

Other distant lands
[such as Seshneg in the Dawn Ages] developed this form of
worship until they made their ancestors surpass the mighty gods
in power, or else reduced the immortals into mere superhuman
heroes or multi-national ancestors.

Cults of Prax p14

It wasn't enough that the Nobility remained true to their ancestors.  They also wanted their ancestors to be the best Gods ever and that was something their wizards were all to happy to help out with.  That lead to tragedy in the Imperial Age and a hands off from the Wizards in the Modern Age.  (And if you are wondering about the specific mention of the Dawn Age, back then Seshnela in the Dawn Age was the only stuff that Greg had written about - Imperial and Modern Seshnela  was something inchoate at the time of writing I understand.

16 hours ago, Darius West said:

Why didn't they follow the Solar Pantheon and its extremely orderly and hierarchical social system, which already mirrors Malkionism in many ways (certainly a lot more than Orlanth and his pantheon does)? 

The people who worship the Solar Pantheon are in Peloria and associated with Gbaji.

Quote

In the contemporary
maps made by sea-goers, all the areas beyond Dragon Pass are
labelled “Krjalki,” a word meaning “Chaos monster” or “demon.”

The map=makers never visited there, but heard only stories of
Lightbringers, who hated the distant Pelorians.

RuneQuest Companion p28

Good luck in trying to convince people to become Solars.

16 hours ago, Darius West said:

Why not the Earth Pantheon? 

And put the women in charge?  Are you nuts?!?

16 hours ago, Darius West said:

Or why not a completely different Pantheon based on the abstract concepts of Sorcery?

Because Sorcery can only be practiced by literate magicians (ie the 1%).  Trying to keep the non-Zzaburi from worshipping the Gods is an exercise in futility that makes them irrelevant as the Brithini.   The Malkioni who worship the Gods are the strongest Malkioni within Time.  Therefore the Invisible God is on their side.

7 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

I saw in the rumor's table there was no physical sighting for like 80 years, recalling from memory?

That turns out to be based on a series of Vampire killings in Trilus

Quote

Vampire of Gork Hills Price - 500 L
No one has anything current to say about the vampire but they do
tell the story that 90 years ago the vampire was responsible for
a series of disappearances from Trilus. After taking one person a
night for two weeks, the vampire announced that it would only
cease if victims were freely provided. The vampire promised that
any victims who came willingly would not be seriously harmed
but that if victims were not provided freely, the citadel would be
depopulated one by one. The citadel did not give in. After several
more disappearances, a house-to-house search found the coffin
of a vampire, which was destroyed. This was not “the vampire,”
of course, but, after reappearing to vow eventual revenge, “the
vampire” left and Trilus has not been bothered since.

Griffin Mountain p98

15 minutes ago, Darius West said:

When 90% of a population is involved in farming, pastoral, primary industry and artisan activities, and a further 8% is involved in the military, then the 1% Wizards a 1% Nobles are a veneer.  The 2% are also likely the only pure Malkioni in the society that they lead.  This means they need to lead EXTREMELY WELL not to be deposed.  They are a pygmy child riding a Rhino.  Control is an illusion.

Once again you keep harping about the Nobles being "pure malkioni' when I've just been explaining to you they worship the Gods like the other non-Zzaburi.  Their Ancestors are the Big Gods like Orlanth, Magasta and Seshna Liktia.  There is no difference in magic between them and the Horali and the leading Dronars.   All are God worshippers who also practice Rightness.  That's why talk of a Malkioni veneer misunderstands Malkioni society.  The non-Zzaburi don't care about who or what an Invisible God looks like - that's something only the Wizards waste their time with.  All the non-Zzaburi care about is supporting the Wizards in return for their magical support.  The Wizards are part of their society and are likely to cast awesome magical spells for them if asked.  Why would you want to overthrow those guys?  

2 minutes ago, Darius West said:

So what about the ones who worship Saint Humath, or Saint Urox, or Saint Worlath? 

You are referring to old material about the Aeolians that has since been repudiated.  The Humakti in Western Lands has pretty much the same view of Humakt as his Sartarite counterpart  The same goes for Telmor, Storm Bull, Orlanth etc.  Whether being a Priest or Rune Lord of the said cults is compatible with Rightness , I don't know.  But if they aren't, Malkioni society would be quite diverse enough to accommodate them just like every other gloranthan society.

2 minutes ago, Darius West said:

The fact is, they are part of a large and separate Theistic system which only has a veneer of Malkionism separating it from the Orlanth Pantheon. 

There's no separation and the framework of Malkionism is one that encompasses a whole society and is not a veneer.

2 minutes ago, Darius West said:

They may support wizards and gain rightness, but look again, and I see a group of people who could overthrow their Malkioni masters and still practice their caste and gain rightness, post revolution.

Practicing Rightness means believing that society should be ordered among the four castes.  How is overthrowing the masters compatible with that?

5 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

Do the malkioni consider "their" invisible god as a smart, sentient, willing being / entity (what is the appropriate word) or is it something less "aware", something like worshipping the world/universe not as a being but more as where we are. Is the invisible god a "Who" or a "What" ?

what can you expect when your worship the invisible god ? are you strengthening the world or the "master" of the world ?

Non-Zzaburi: The Invisible God?  I heard the wizards talking about him between themselves once.  I asked who that was and was told to "Please Go Away".

Zzaburi:  We are the thoughts of the Invisible God.  But in our fragmented state, we can only understand its mind as an insect might see ourselves.  Only through the understanding of Rightness and acquisition of Knowledge can we be better know the Invisible God.

Apart from the already mentioned Black Arkati of Arkat's Last Hold. there is Mularik Ironeye who is described as a descendent of Arkat Chaosbane.  This could be a misunderstanding of the chain of teachers between him and Arkat.  Mularik was in Seshnela in the past few years but has recently returned.  

Dragon Pass (and Redstone) would be very important to the Arkati as many important events about him took place there.  They would have been turning up as soon as Dragon Pass was open to human resettlement.  Their numbers would have taken a bit of a leap after the Oceans were opened but fallen as a result of the Lunar Conquest.

3 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Are there under water projectile weapons in Glorantha? Are there archaic spearguns?

The Malasp have access to crossbows in the RQ3 Gloranthan Bestiary.  It could be fired above and below the water's surface.  Above, it was a normal light crossbow while below it had a range of 20m.  It seems to me that these weapons were crafted from sunken Jrusteli ruins.

16 minutes ago, radmonger said:

No, they use 'caste magic'. Which, as I understand it, is mechanically close enough it might as well be identical. Or at least it is closer to rune magic than it is to sorcery. It's described in the book of cults, which has one section for each divine or heroic caste founder.

The west is not described in the Book of Cults AFAIK.  It's big enough as it is already.

As for Caste Magic being mechanistically close to Rune Magic, another way that it could be implemented is that the non-Zzaburi gets knowledge of a caste-appropriate sorcery spell (such as a warrior getting Boon of Kargan Tor or Mend Flesh) which he then provides the magic points for.  The chance of casting is a caste appropriate lore skill.  Acquisition of caste magic would be done through a Zzaburi (thus keeping them in the loop as the provider of Malkioni magic).

There's also the shamanic gifts/divine gifts route.

1 hour ago, Godlearner said:

We are beating around the bush here guys. Do full Aeolian sorcerers also achive the status of a Priest? 

No.  They are not rune priests. 

46 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

Got that, but I am looking for the how this reflected in practice. Aeolian zzaburi can and are initiated (followers of) particular saints. How far do they advance into the deeper mysteries of these entities? Do they become Saint Talkers (God Talkers) and Leader of Saint (Priest) or just nod to the basic function of the saint in its relationship to the Invisible God? 

Saints is obsolete terminology as the Aeolians worship Gods.  I think their Zzaburi worship Lhankor Mhy among other deities but Orlanth and many other gods have their worshippers in other castes..

42 minutes ago, Darius West said:

But doesn't this make the Malkioni a minority religion in their own heartlands? 

No it does not.  A Malkioni has a wider definition than a sorcery user.

42 minutes ago, Darius West said:

I mean, this portrays a society with a thin upper crust of genuine Malkioni sitting above the 'roiling mass' of a pagan underclass that could overthrow them at a moment's notice. 

Except the underclass is not pagan.  They support the wizards and receive guidance and magical support.  They acquire Rightness in their actions which allows them to use Caste Magic, a significaqnt distinction between themselves and people who are not Malkioni.  

42 minutes ago, Darius West said:

I mean, I'm not suggesting this is wrong in any way, and it certainly goes a long way towards explaining how the God Learners were so effective at infiltrating cults, but how on the Lozenge is social order maintained when people have these varied allegiances? 

The possession of Rightness and the consequent use of caste magic provides strong evidence to the Malkioni that the social order they follow is worthy of their support.  

42 minutes ago, Darius West said:

It sounds like a disaster waiting to happen, sorcery or no sorcery.   I mean, it is a lot easier to get quite a lot of power from a group of initiates in a god that it is from zzaburi who have to train for decades.  Consider, if you have 10 initiates, you will statistically have 1 successful Divine Intervention that can potentially dispel any sorcery.  

But most Malkioni can happily use both caste magic *and* rune magic.  It's not an either/or situation (unless they are sorcerers).  They could follow the example of the Brithini and use only Caste Magic and Sorcery but the latter are practically extinct because they can't adapt to the World of Time.  The wizards sigh and roll their eyes, muttering darkly about "misapplied worship" and how "the world is made of everything" but even they recognize their dream of a world of pure reason is unattainable.  The Malkioni could overthrow the wizards but that's like cutting off their arms - the wizards provide the philosophy and magics that keeps the Malkioni strong against their neighbours.

Just looking through the Stafford House Companion and I saw this:

Quote

QUEENDOM OF JAB DEFEATS MALKONWAL KNIGHTS
In a small action a count of the Malkonwal duchy was defeated and eaten by a larger
enemy army of scorpion things. The gorilla scorpions were the greatest single
surprise. The queen herself was not there, but a pair of very powerful priest lords
commanded them bravely.

p90

Other sundry tidbits about early conceptions of the Holy Country therein.

Just now, Runeblogger said:

What difference is there between Seshnelans and Aeolians in this regard?

The only difference that I know of is that the Aeolians have three castes instead of four.  Seshnegi like King Rikard didn't have a problem with the Aeolians and vice versa when running the place.

1 hour ago, hipsterinspace said:

They aren't worshiped among the Zzaburi or the Talars most places, the exceptions being places where there has been significant syncretism.

The Talars of Seshnela worship their ancestors like Seshna Likita, Orlanth and Magasta as has been the case since Cults of Prax and RuneQuest Companion.  For the Malkioni, Malkionism isn't a faith where one believes in the Invisible God - it's faith where one believes in and supports the Wizards.  

1 hour ago, Darius West said:

I see the point and, to be fair, we do have the heresy of Invisible Orlanth, and the likes of St. Humath and St. Urox as potential patron saints/ascended masters, but we must also face the fact that this is a long way from pure Malkionism. 

The only "pure" Malkioni are the Brithini and the other Malkioni accept they are nothing like them.

1 hour ago, Darius West said:

It's very questionable, and given that the Malkioni still fight wars over paganism, it is a long way from being acceptable. 

What wars over paganism would these be?  The key difference between the Seshnegi and the Ralians is whether the wizards should also worship Gods, a heresy.  The question of whether other castes should worship not Gods is one that nobody thinks possible.  

1 hour ago, Darius West said:

It should be obvious to everyone that these are pagan deities merely being dressed up in Malkionism. 

Except that Gods came from the Invisible God and are in origin legitimate emanations of It.  

5 hours ago, hipsterinspace said:

I believe the main workaround is that the gods they worship are technically their ancestors, which likely means their approach to them is different enough that it’s acceptable to the Rokari wizard caste.

Only the Nobles worship their ancestors.  Everybody else worships whatever the Nobles tell them and what the wizards permit (Humakt, Telmor, Basmol etc).

5 hours ago, hipsterinspace said:

I’m guessing some Irensevalists have different ideas about what is permissible, especially the Loskalmi, 

The word from Jeff has been that the Loskalmi worship only Malkioni cults, like Xemela, Talor etc - no pagans gods, no ancestors.  IMO this situation can't last and the ban is breaking down as the wider world starts to intrude.

Just now, Darius West said:

That just doesn't seem right.  Malkionism is pretty clear on the point that worshipping Pagan deities is wrong. 

No longer so.  And it has not been reflected in Greg's stories about the Malkioni either.  The Church thing was something created in a crunch in fill out details of the west for the Genertela boxed set.

The Wizards practice sorcery.  Other castes support the wizards.  In return they have Rightness and permission to worship gods that will not corrupt them.

Just now, PhilHibbs said:

Biturian Varosh traded for a slave (or was it a repayment of a debt?) but he was uncomfortable with it and eventually freed (and married) her.

He freed her to break a curse that came from acquiring her brother.  Hardly a case of discomfort IMO.