metcalph

2 hours ago, soltakss said:

If I recall/remember correctly.

Oh.

By the way, what does BTW mean?

How to be a powerful sorcerer.

IMO the way a sorcerer would become really powerful is to achieve unity with the Godhead.  There's all sorts of ambiguous flaff in Revealed Mythologies so I'll stick with standard cosmology.  Gloranthans are generally the equivalent of the inhabitants of the Fourth World/Storm Age.  A sorcerer seeks gnosis by reaching back through successive stages of cosmical understanding (Golden Age, Green Age, Creation Age).  I think Adepts have reached the Golden Age stage of awareness and Maguses the Green Age.  Only Zzabur has reached the Creation Age.  

Acquisition of gnosis is generally done by swotting up on the runes and studying the spells.  When a sorcerer feels ready, they casts great spells weaves together all that they know for translation to a higher realm.  Translated sorcerers travel in worlds lesser mortals cannot imagine to the extent that they are gods in human clothing with lightning bolts shooting from their fingertips.  Translated sorcerers do not die but generally leave the mortal realms behind.  The worst sort of translated sorcerers are not those who are evil but those who remain active in the mortal world.  

6 minutes ago, svensson said:

@metcalph I'm not seeing where the sorcerous focus on Rune mastery to access spells is the anything like the RQ3's requirement to invest truly massive amounts of permanent POW into a Sorcerer's career. In RQ3, Tapping is almost a necessity but it does not appear to be the case here. 

I got the impression from the RQG rules that Tapping (specifcially Steal Breath) was easier in that there was less moral objection whereas originally most Malkioni schools have forbidden the usage.  

6 minutes ago, svensson said:

Then there's the difference between Magi level characters from the Monster Coliseum box set and Strangers in Prax. Now, I realize that MC was generic and Strangers was Glorantha specific and that there was a 10 year difference between publishing dates. But Maculus and Arlaten could wipe the floor with any previously published Sorcerer [including Halcyon van Enkorth, and he was supposed to a top-tier bad guy] and at no point was there ever a step-by-step discussion of how those characters got as powerful as they were.

HVE appeared as a Magus in Griffin Island not Monster Coliseum.  The Sorcerer in Monster Coliseum was an Adept.  But the three you mentioned were by design bigwig sorcerers storywise rather than would-be player heroes.  There's no discussion of how Kallyr and Argrath get to be so powerful within the rules that we have but their powerful status fits the background.  So your plaint really isn't about the rules that we have but the story reasons why they got to be so powerful.  HVE is just evil with a recycled text description from Griffin Mountain (stating he is just 25 years old), Maculus is at least century old and Arlaten's background does have a disconnect with his power.

47 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

Does anyone have info on the Sun Wheel Ruin. I didn't see anything when I searched but may have missed it, please post the thread title if I did.

 

It may have been known as the city of Elempur within the Godtime Empire of Dara Happan.  It would have been sacked and destroyed by the Orlanthi leaving only a few Dancers behind.  One dancer went north to Dara Happa to serve as the Empire's Bow God but the others remained behind.

9 hours ago, Ian Thomson said:

Is Humakt suited as the deity of choice for a bunch of exiled Carmanian Knights and supporters?

I think they would worship Yanafal Tarnils rather than Humakt as he's the better Fighting God.  Humakt to them would be kinda like Umath to the Orlanthi - once a powerful god but no longer.  Being his worshippers won't stop them from being exiled.   Bisos is really a version of Storm Bull (he once wasn't but he now is).  But it depends on why they were exiled.  In the Western Reaches, real troublemakers would be madea walk into the Ban while the potential trouble-makers (weaker side of a brewing feud) are not exiled as such but think it will be easier if they just went elsewhere.  

While there are local variants of Humakt (WelPolo in the Enkosiad), they would be used as colour in the local ceremonies rather than distinct cults in their own right.    If the exiles are pretty dedicated enough they may get an exotic rune spell or guft from his worship but that would be about it.

Rather than have actual sorcery spells to make a familiar, I would (ab)use Caste Magic and rule that the Malkioni (not just their sorcerors!) is manifesting a portion of their ideal self.  So they'll be like material fetches.  They won't give additional free INT or POW but they can cast any magic that the caster knows.  

The Seshnegi wizards will shun this practice while tolerating it in their warriors (who would have familiars of their beast order - wolf, lion, serpent etc). Wealthy Seshnegi farmers and women would have small household goblins that grumble through all their tedious tasks.  The Noble familiars range from cute pets to highly magical guardians.

Most Lokslami use their familiars like the Seshnegi farmers.  But their leaders are fond of using flying creatures such as the swallow to represent the soul's desire to escape the corrupt world. They use the familiars as an aid to heroquesting and reaching the Hidden Mover.  

The Brithini do not have familiars as it is incompatible with their immortality.

The familiars start off small but can be grown through further caste magic enchantments.  If a familiar dies or is killed then it can be re-manifested through POW sacrifices and the help of a friendly wizard.

37 minutes ago, Darius West said:

May I direct you to Strangers in Prax (RQ3) in which on pages 66-67 there is a fairly detailed write-up on the sorcerer Arlaten's familiar nail-head.  This was a pretty good model of what was possible regarding familiars using RQ3 sorcery. 

I think the question is why do Sorcerers have a need to make a familiar?  It's not so much as the question of whether they can make familiars (Probably) and how to do so (Probably similar to Weapons and Equipment) but the idea that every sorcerer *must* have a familiar to demonstrate mastery of their craft.

There's scope for a particular school to mandate the creation of a familiar for recognition (I once had the Surgeons of Vitality become qualified by making a homunculus which they called a minime...) but I'm really not seeing why every sorceror must have one.

3 hours ago, svensson said:

As it sits, we have a bare-bones description of Sorcery in RQG, but that description bears little resemblance to any of the previous Sorcery systems in earlier editions.

It bears a lot of resemblence to the RQ3 version and I don't know of any other RQ editions that had sorcery.

3 hours ago, svensson said:

And for that matter, we don't know how RQG is going to address Sorcery and Malkionism and it's hard to have an informed discussion on the subject without bringing Zzsabur /Malkion up.

We do have a fair idea.

The Malkioni have rightness through which they can do caste magic.  Caste magic is probably similar to Shamanic Gifts (or even the gifts from Yelmalio and Humakt) except that the magic are caste specific and sorcerous in nature. What's not known is how many gifts a Malkioni would have.

1 hour ago, PhilHibbs said:

Sandy seemed quite comfortable with familiars in his entirely Gloranthan sorcery system. If it's good enough for Sandy...

"Sandy likes it" is not what I would call "the glorantha reasoning to make it stick" 

5 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

FAMILIAR

I don't know why there is no rule about familiar. Does that mean the familiar notion will not exist anymore in RQG ?

Because RQ2 had spirits bound into animals (as opposed to allied spirits) which were often referred to as familiars.  RQ3 junked this in favour of the sorcerous version but never had the gloranthan reasoning to make it stick.  RQG has gone back to the RQ version.

6 hours ago, David Scott said:

It references the Ernalda cult in Book 5 of RQ3, where it says:

While this could be interpreted as the Goddess Switch, it's doesn't actually say that.

It's also repeated in the Glorantha Sourebook p70 which originally appears in Wyrms Footnotes.

Quote

In the mythologies of the world she takes a very background
and passive role, almost becoming absorbed by
the world as it grows to flower and fruition. During the
Darkness, she was shattered and broken as terror and hate
overtook her children. Afterwards, within our realm of
history and time, she has been worshipped often and by
many, but always as a local deity rather than being recognized
as the cosmic entity she is. Even during the revival
and unification of the Elder Cults by the God Learners
there was a stubborn persistence of these cults to remain
apart despite the most complex and perfect magical acts
of the philosophers. In one case, upon Summoning and
Riddling two similar goddesses the God Learners managed
to make the two deities admit that they were interchangeable,
and even forced the goddesses to exchange
worshippers without any substantial change in deity or
cult, but they could not make the two admit to being one
and the same. Thus, has the Goddess been absorbed into
the Web, and remains ever hidden from us behind the
Great Mystery.

Given Teshana's maritial discord described in the book and curious features in the Teshnan frieze in the guide, it's my belief that Teshnos was at the other end of the Goddess Switch suffering the failed marriages.  

On 7/2/2022 at 8:16 AM, Erol of Backford said:

 

Just wanting to sort out the mechanics of it all. Thanks in advance!

An adventure around this question is in the Starter Set

1 hour ago, Darius West said:

 Remember that Yelmalio is only called Yelmalio after Monrogh forms the cult from Elmal worshippers in 1565 after the recovery of the Antesmia statue imsmc.  It is thus extremely unlikely that the Ostrich riders call their light deity Yelmalio.

Yelmalio has been in Prax since the Imperial Age.  The Ostrich Riders probably only worshipped minor light spirits to compensate for lost Yamsur until Yelmalio came along.

Perhaps they are related to Pteranodons; Dinosaurs that have realized their own fallen nature and have reborn themselves to return to the Draconic Way.

5 hours ago, GMKen said:

Also, what’s the deal with 20 clans and 10 hearths?  

Since Balazar has a population of 130,000, each clan would have to have something like 6,500 people which seems like a lot.  There's really two options:

• Assume the clans are really tribes grown large through pig-herding, or
• Assume the clans are really the clans in and around the citadels, who have declared a tribal relationship) and that there are many more clans than those listed.

If the later, then the Citadels would have twenty clans between them (Balazar has 5000 urban so the twenty clans might have 50,000 total).  The hearths might then be small towns of pig farmers (the map's not inaccurate - they were clan hearths the last time any outsider looked), being the center for 8,000 balazarings each (pig farmers and more traditional hunter-gatherers), being loosely organized into groups of 20 clans (average clan size ~400 GM p15)

22 minutes ago, FlamingCatOfDeath said:

@jajagappa I am wondering are their institutions in Nochit that will feed, raise and provide non-criminal job skills to any streetrat* that comes to them? It counts even if they are legally indebted to the group or inducted into a cult. I am trying to figure out if their is a non criminal, non slavery method of survival for unexceptional orphan kids without job skills. If their are no such group(s) than street rats will make up a large percentage of petty thieves.

The Clay Pot and Spoon Shrines (Esrolia: Land of 10K Goddess p56)

38 minutes ago, Darius West said:

A group has to start somewhere, so why not with its smallest constituent number? i.e. 1.

Developing a sorcerous order is significantly more involved than having one sorcerer turn to a life of crime.  It's like learning how to read and building a university.

38 minutes ago, Darius West said:

Your position here is interesting, but perhaps the sorcerous group in question don't want to be beholden to a deity and their arbitrary appetites, spirits of retribution and rules,    

This is a bit too rules-talky IMO to be plausible as a motivation for gloranthans (even Malkioni ones).  Lanbril, for example, isn't known for having arbitrary appetites, spirits of retribution and rules.  

38 minutes ago, Darius West said:

while also lacking access to a shaman who can offer them easy access to spirit spells?  This would be a problem arising in Malkioni areas.

I doubt it.  Shamans would be ready suited to being counter-culture magicians in Malkioni society.  We already have an example of a shamanic criminal group in a civilized lands: Black Fang.  They would be more like hedge magicians

6 hours ago, FlamingCatOfDeath said:

While I wholeheartedly agree about the unlikeliness of sorcerous thief groups, I would like to point out that criminal groups have a wide variety of goals.

The subject was a thief group who makes money.  A religious order of assassins may well be criminal but they are hardly thieves, are they?

6 hours ago, FlamingCatOfDeath said:

While many thief groups will optimize for maximum returns for minimum effort others will optimize for protection from threats.

Demanding people pay up in return for nothing bad happening to them *is* a maximum return for minimum effort as the amount of you get far exceeds any work put in to frightening people in paying up.  In any case, the sociological justification for crime is irrelevant to the question of whether such a society can legitimately be sorcerous.  All anybody's ever come up with are Moriatys and Goodmans who are thief-adjacent individuals.

2 hours ago, Mark Mohrfield said:

I believe that Sandy Petersen has claimed that Elamle-ata was a Superhero.

I think that particular exchange was a bit of crossed wires.  One person was asking why all superheroes were aggressive and Sandy responded with the example of Elamle-Ata as the example of a pacifist hero.  

13 hours ago, Darius West said:

People can become thieves for a variety of reasons, but one thing is certain; urban populations are universally more literate than rural ones.  I suspect it would be relatively easy for a literate person to wind up on the wrong side of the law, especially a corrupt bureaucrat who knows how to cook a book.

What you are describing here is a single person rather than a criminal group.  The group aims to get large sums of money from other people with as little as work as possible (violence may or may not be counted as work depending on the members).   That's contrary to the mentality of a sorcerous society which would be full of people spending large amounts of work for something of little value.  

13 hours ago, Darius West said:

As for long periods of study, I draw your attention to  all those sympathetic magic bonuses on p387-388 of RQG. 

Why mess around with sympathetic bonuses when you can easily get spirit and rune magic success rates above 50% for far less effort?  A thief wants good magic right now, not something he has to spend five years to have  a middling chance of success.

4 hours ago, Darius West said:

IDK, I could see something like a sorcerous thief cult occurring in Fonrit.  If you think about it, sorcery is the easiest form of magic to learn, because all you need is a grimoire and the time to puzzle out how to cast spells. 

Sorcery is heavily limited by the requirement for literacy.  Thus a thief would find it easier to know and cast heal 2 or heal wound than to take reading lessons so he can cast mend flesh with a chance greater than 5%.  And if the thief was prepared to endure long periods of study to become a half-decent sorceror, he won't have the mindset of being a thief, would he?

20 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

to be fair Ukraine claims it killed 12 Russian Generals in combat already, and so far their claims have turned out to be 75% accurate, so IDK if this is the best example of "rare happenings" hahaha

The rare happening is that he was a general flying a combat aircraft at the time.  Combat pilots promoted above a certain rank get grounded in administration and never again fly combat ops.  But this particular major-general had been fired from the air force several years before for <checks notes> getting drunk on vodka, taking a Su-27 for a joyride, performing aerobatics in it and crashing the said plane.  After being fired, he joined the infamous Wagner group as a mercenary pilot where he flew an SU-25 (reportedly specially painted for him) in Ukraine and was shot down.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanamat_Botashev

Which reinforces the point I made about a good story needed to explain something normally impossible (to wit, a sorcerer working for or with a gang of thieves).  Although to be blunt, this particular story was frankly unbelievable when I first heard it.

7 hours ago, AlHazred said:

I had postulated a while back that, IMG, the Thanatari who worship Atyar, the Horned Skull, had formed a sorcerous society (the Horned Society) which specializes in stealing occult and arcane secrets from other organizations/cults/etc. If you use such an organization, they would certainly have a cell in Nochet, what with the large Lhankor Mhy temple there, not to mention being a trading hub and therefore a great place to seek out new secrets.

While Atyar may use sorcery and may be in Nochet (a lot depends on what changes if any are in the forthcoming works), they are not a cult of thieves.

20 hours ago, Agentorange said:

I don't think it would have to be a cult....but some kind of thieving organistion  with specialist sorcery suited to what they do seems plausible.

To have specialist sorcery requires a full-time sorcerer and not some full-time thieves dabbling in sorcery.  I won't say it can't ever happen (the bizarre tale of the Russian Major-General shot down in combat over Ukraine springs to mind) but it does require a good story.

I don't think there would be any such thing as a sorcerous thief cult.  There might be thieves working for a sorcerer but even in Malkioni lands, thieves would worship a thief god (like Lanbril) or demon.