metcalph

3 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

Besides the writings in the Cult Compendium and to a lessor degree Pavis: Gateway to Adventure is there additional information on Mr. Varosh?

Any guess as to what year he made his journey? I just began listening to the Pod Cast but didn't hear the year just Dark Season. Also where was he based if that is known or might be guessed and what route did he take to Pimper's Block from his base?

The dates of his itinerary are given in Cults of Prax.  

1 hour ago, Erol of Backford said:

Smalltown: This magical neighborhood is inhabited by
the mysterious “gold people” who accompanied
Lord Pavis.

Who were they? Pavis: Gateway to Adventure p.35

Could be Kralori.  Godunya is known to have visited Dragon Pass in EWF times.

On 11/3/2022 at 4:44 PM, SDLeary said:

I'm not sure this would be a thing. Obviously, when the Dwarf comes out of the vat, it is to a certain set of specifications for their intended role. If something occurs that causes a defect, then they simply get tossed back into the vat, unless that worksite has a severe shortage of workers. In which case the defective worker is placed into a new cast, more suitable for their specifications, and reprogrammed.

IMO the nature of dwarven stats is dependent on a number of factors that range from a) the dwarves been tailored to the task that they are intended for and b) When the World Machine was broken, the Decamony desperately suspended Quality Control to make the needed quotas for dwarven production.

Dwarves have a severe shortage of workers that has lasted for so long that none of them can remember the days of surplus.  There's no rejection of inferior units because all dwarves produced are inferior to what they could have been.

An Iron Dwarf with a SIZ of 2, a STR of 4 and INT of 8 will always have a place in any Dwarven Society as an Iron Dwarf even though he would be rejected as unfit in any human army (except for possibly the Mobiks).  

3 hours ago, davecake said:

But I don’t think this disdain for magic extends to Silver dwarves.

I do.  Silver Dwarves can be sorcerors with the same antipathy towards magic as their colleagues.  

Firstly a couple of Data Points.  

"They say they made the Red Moon." Guide p84

Guide p297 has a map with two dwarven magical suppression zones.

Silver Dwarves IMO do not see magic as a positive force but a negative one to be soaked up and neutralized or expended.  Enchantments are good because they embed magic within matter.  Tapping is bad in that it destroys matter to create magic.  This also applies to sentients.  With uninhibited access to magic, the inhabitants of the surface world are surly and violent.  When equipped with a device that restricts their magic, like a slave collar, they become meek and compliant.  

I think all the Silver Dwarf spells are variations on the technqiues in RQ Glorantha Bestiary p61 and require the expenditure of POW to cast.  This impels them to cast massive spells rather than little ones like the humans would consider.

3 hours ago, Ironwall said:

What is Phargentes like? What are his goals? 

Depends on what you mean?  Are you referring to his appearance in King of Sartar?  In the Guide, he's the returned Red Emperor and his goals are quite explicit.

22 hours ago, radmonger said:

Worshipping other deities, for non-wizards, never breaks caste restrictions in itself. Only actions, not beliefs, can break caste restrictions. The relevant things that do are:

- non-wizards following the priest occupation.

I myself that a complicated position - some Seshnegi priesthoods are compatible with Rightness and others aren't.  The two most important ones that aren't are Daka Fal (known IMO to the Seshnegi as Old Man Malkion) and Humakt.

Old Man Malkion's priests are Shamans and Shamanic Gifts and Geases would clash with Rightness and Caste Magic.  The Priests of Old Man Malkion are aware of this, claim to be Righteous nevertheless and blame the incompatibility on Zzabur being vindictive.  Their gifts and geases have a significantly Malkioni air to give their claims some plausibility despite clear wizard proof.  They are loved by the non-Wizards for despite their Noble status, they willingly go out to minister to both the rich and the poor.  They are generally unmolested by the Wizards because they are of noble rank - a Wizard will probably not lose Rightness for attacking a Shaman of Old Man Malkion but he will face the wrath of the Nobles for daring to attack one of them and also the commoners for attacking a popular religious figure.  Commoner shamans of Old Man Malkion only have the support of the commoners and are considered criminals by the authorities.

Humakti have gifts and geases and also sever themselves from society before rejoining.  IMO a Seshnegi that joins Humakt has no Rightness and is considered legally dead.  They participate in Seshnegi society by swearing allegiance to a Noble.  Maybe if that Noble dies, they are supposed to die alongside him.  A humakti that has no Noble master or one that has sworn himself to a non-Noble master is considered a criminal.  Such Humakti are not killed on sight  (other warriors generally have better things to do unless they are much better) but there is stil a huge sense of social unease around them.  Again, the gifts and geases of Seshnegi Humakti might have a Malkioni air.

Ehilm (Yelmalio) also has gifts and geases.  Are his worshippers non-Righteous?  I think instead of having gifts and geases, Seshnegi worshippers would have a bonus on their Rightness and Caste Magic.  But the penalties for breaking Rightness is much harder for them than for other Malkioni.

8 minutes ago, Barak Shathur said:

Regarding this, have I got this right that you actually sacrifice POW to cast dwarven sorcery? In which case it's something to only use in exceptional circumstances? In the Bestiary it says "expend" rather than "sacrifice", but I take it this means the same thing?

It's intentional.  Dwarves don't like magic, viewing the material world of Glorantha as the highest form of reality.  The spirit world, the middle air, the world of the Gods being increasingly magical are viewed as inferior realms worthy only of condemnation.  Dwarves prefer to use gunpowder, iron and alchemy than mess about with Boon of Kargan Tor or Bladesharp.  Even the magic they have to use is taken as a sign that the Gods War is not over yet.  

That doesn't preclude dwarves from using sorcery in your campaign or even dwarves using magic in canonical glorantha.  Many dwarves have taken to experimenting with magic (individualists! *spit*) and so could have any assortment of spells.  I'm pretty sure if Rockheart Veinseeker (Griffin Mountain) were rewritten for RQG, the writers would keep the fancy rune spells that he has and explain if off as a minor variation of Openhandism (using non-dwarvish magics to worship Mostal)  that has so far escaped Nida's attention.

2 minutes ago, davecake said:

Because that was the basis of the Serpent Kings dynasty. And the sort of thing that lead to the need to purge their influence. 

Think you have read the history wrong.  The Serpent Kings died out and one of their successors was Annilla who was sacrificing people in secret.  That lead to the sealing of the temple by the True Hrestol Way.  But that's one historical event and far from Nobles abandoned the worship of Seshna Likita ever afterwards.  The Seshnelan Kings list itself describes the event as the worship of Seshna was "constrained to repress its more savage portions".  Saval himself was crowned using the rituals of the Serpent Kings and the temple itself was open in Second Age Seshnela (Guide p412)

So I really do not see why Nobles leading the Earth cults should be so "historically problematic". If you didn't like the idea, then note I just said it was my thinking, not a statement of truth, and move on.  There's no need to waste time with appeals to authority of a fan publication.

2 minutes ago, davecake said:

Sure, they aren’t really the same (the Serpent Kings didn’t just lead Earth worship, but also cross-bred with them etc). But being like the Serpent Kings is something that Good Rokari most definitely aren’t.

So why does King Guilmarn wear the Serpent Crown (Guide p412-413) then if the Serpent Kings were so bad? And it's pretty hard to look at the Frieze in

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/catalogue/websites/moondesign-com/jeffs-old-blogs/seshnela-art-direction/

and reconcile it with your apparent thinking that the Talars worship the Invisible God and nobody else.

2 minutes ago, davecake said:

It’s an archaic title also held by the Watcher Supreme. 

It's not a title that exists anymore in Glorantha.  

24 minutes ago, davecake said:

Nobles leading Earth cults, in particular, especially if they make too many claims about their ancestral connections to the Earth giving them priestly authority, is particularly historically problematic, and will have the Ecclesiarch sending his Watchers around in no time. 

Ecclesiarch?  Who's that?  And why are Nobles leading Earth cults "historically problematic"?  

24 minutes ago, davecake said:

 because if the Talars should discover the War Societies should be doing something so irresponsible as worshipping pagan gods in return for good combat magic, they might have to put a stop to it, and that would irresponsibility compromise their military assets. 

What's a pagan god?  As I've pointed out before, the word isn't used at all in the Guide except for a single legacy text.

Just to put my thinking out on how cults work in Seshnela.  Instead of cults being confined to single castes (ie only the Farmers worship Farming Gods), I view the Nobles as providing the Religious Leadership of the Seshnegi cults.  They provide the Priests and determine who gets initiated (their supporters obviously).  Lower caste Malkioni who worship the Gods without a Noble Priest are rebels, guilty of caste crime with consequent loss of Rightness (except they are Hrestoli which makes them even more wicked).

Since the demise of the God Learners, the Wizards do not get involved in the  worship of the Gods.  They are still haunted by what happened when their predecessors did.  Where they are involved is in two places - a) determination of which Gods are right and proper to worship and b) amplifying any blessings the Priests may cast.

A Priestess of Seshna Likita casts Bless Crops.  Because she is a Noble, she's not likely to be as common as her counterparts in Dragon Pass and the Holy Country or even as powerful.  But her magic is ultimately more effective because the Wizards see the magic as a beneficial blessing from the Gods (whom they regard as forces of nature) which they amply and boost as part of their duties.  Thus in Seshnela, the Nobles and Wizards work in syngery for the benefit of all (weighted in their own favour but for all).

3 hours ago, Lordabdul said:

Is that from an edition that includes the errata that says you need to move it down by one hex?

(yes, Gloranthan cartography is.... a whole thing)

It's from the original Nomad Gods map.

29 minutes ago, Eff said:

It's nice that you don't think it's true. But the dilemma here is simply that we are told that Rokari society, like all Malkioni societies, has an entire non-sorcerous society within itself, on top of which is layered zzaburi sorcerers.

I disagree that we have been told that the Rokari society (edit: other than the Zzaburi) is entirely non-sorcerous and I disagree that the Zzaburi are layered on top of it.  There are other ways to construe the statements made in the Guide and elsewhere about the Rokari that do not require us to assume the absolute worst about them.

29 minutes ago, Eff said:

But the Rokari are not massively stronger or wealthier than non-Malkioni societies. 

Again that's a claim with which I disagree.  They are one of the centres of civilization and they once managed to conquer the whole world.  

29 minutes ago, Eff said:

So either Malkioni spiritism and theism are ineffectual compared to the spiritism and theism of other peoples, or zzaburi sorcery is an ineffectual, marginal addition onto their spiritism and theism.

A much better way of phrasing this might be, whereas in other societies, magical power resides in the temples, Seshnelan magical power resides in the wizards.  That way, one doesn't have to tie oneself in knots by having to claim that the average seshnegi sucks at spirit or rune magics if their wizards are powerful.  Because that's really confusing two different things.

29 minutes ago, Eff said:

And if we assume the zzaburi take significant resources- that there is a meaningful upward flow in Rokari society from drones and horals and talars to zzaburs- then they would be parasitic. And the first term there is broadly accepted. 

Parasitic means they give absolutely nothing in return, which is not supported by the sources.  You can make the same claim about Esrolia in that magical power flows into the Temples (and Esrolia is a high unequal society).  But it does not follow that the temples provide nothing in return and so it should not follow that the Wizards provide nothing in returm,.

29 minutes ago, Eff said:

So if we want the Rokari wizards to be anything other than an instrument for proto-Marxist propaganda, we kind of have to solve this dilemma and answer just what it is that they do, what social function they have, without falling back on "they cast sorceries on the peasants for the benefit of all", which is now absurd when peasants have their own, entirely independent source of beneficial magic, which is just as good as the Sartarite kind. It makes them look ineffectual. 

The peasants do not have their own entirely independent source of beneficial magic.  They worship the gods at the direction of the nobility - Seshna Likita for example is an ancestor of the Kings of Seshnela and so her priestesshoods would be restricted to women of noble rank for example.  Both the peasants and the nobles also receive Caste Magic through the guidance of the Wizards and so on, thereby creating an interlocking society.  Yes, the situation is unequal in the favour of the Nobles and Wizards but pretty much every civilized society in glorantha is similarly unequal.  As for solving the dilemma, I think the first step would have been to avoid making cartoonishly sweeping statements about Seshnegi society.

6 minutes ago, Eff said:

Which is what I mean by parasitism- Zzaburi suck in resources but, unlike a warrior aristocracy or temple hierarchy, would give approximately nothing back.

That's quite claim which I don't think is true.

There is any number of ways in which Rightness could be used.

1) Rightness as Rune Points to cast caste sorcery.  This has been used in the past for Godunya in AH Gods of Glorantha (and Greg has said at one of the conventions that he thought the Black Arkati would cast sorcery this way).

2) Rightness as a Free INT for caste sorcery.  

3) Rightness as a Logical Fetch.  Non-sorcery spells must overcome a Malkioni's POW + Rightness to succeed.

4)  Rightness as the equivalent of the Vessel in Sandy's sorcery rules.

As for acquiring caste magic, I'm thinking it's really enchantments made by the Zzaburi using the Malkioni's own POW.  Some provide knowledge of a spell, others a magical gift or ability and still others knowledge of a Logical Form (for example a smith might know how to create Logical Swords)

On 10/26/2022 at 4:12 AM, French Desperate WindChild said:

why not considering that caste magic is just the spells (spirit or runic *) that are allowed for their caste

Because the Brithini who also use caste magic don't use spirit magic or rune spells.

On 10/26/2022 at 4:12 AM, French Desperate WindChild said:

and as the malkioni have less spells than their theistic/shamanist peers, the rightness score may give some bonus (maybe like the lunar magic*, another sub system, something like the ability to "manipulate" their spirit spells)

The sorcerors of Dragon Pass have less spells than their theistic/shamanic peers.  The Malkioni have loads more spells.

6 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

Interesting: why not palatable?

Atheist sorcerers are a goer, right? And they can spin any story they like to go with their “cult”.

Except the origin of the cult is a "simple local phenomenon" (Guide p324) which kinda rules out the creation by atheistic sorcerers (and its far from clear that the cult even has any).

6 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

Or have I misunderstood you?

Stories about how so-and-so supernatural beings are frauds perpetrated by criminals for real estate shenanigans have been used far too often on Scooby-Doo.

 I assume the cult is from Otkorion (the Chariot of Lightning) by the way of Galastar.

For the most part it would be a conventional Orlanthi cult.  How its sorcery works is a Big Question.  Perhaps its Rune Lords use Malkioni techniques to acquire henosis with Orlanth and get additional magic from that?  Or if it has Wizards, they would be adept in Storm Magics?

Greg at one point was thinking the whole thing was a big con but that's not a palatable solution.

2 minutes ago, radmonger said:

Shamanism is largely a magic system where you get spirits to cast magic _for you_. I expect caste magic is something similar.

Not how it's shown in the rules.  There spirit magics are something you have and are cast by you.  The colour that the spells are really spirits acting on your behalf  is not mechanistically present in the RQ rules.  So I don't see why Caste Magic should be mechanistically *not* be magic cast by the Malkioni.  

As far as I am concerned, Caste Magic is a mental interaction with the Gods that founded the Castes: Dronar, Talar, Horal and Zzabur.  This neoplatonic awareness is achieved Rightness and gives a variety of magics (Caste specific sorcery) and gifts (like those of the shamans, Yelmalio and Humakt).  The sorcery that is present in the rules is achieved through mental interaction with Malkion the One Mind, a superior being to and Creator of the Four Caste Founders as well as every other God in Glorantha (okay, probably not Vith.  And probably not Dragons etc).  The magic Sorcerers has a freedom untrammelled by the limits of caste - they accept Zzabur's assistance because they are standing on the shoulders of giants. 

Secondly, following the Sorcery is "something that you know".  It seems to me to  contrary to Malkioni philosophy to have Caste Magic be Rune Magic - it should have the look and feel of Sorcery even though it will never be as strong or as versatile as sorcery in the RQG rules.

4 minutes ago, Richard S. said:

From the stuff we've heard about how Rightness works, it doesn't seem like caste magic is sorcery anymore, it's just special abilities you get for being a good Malkioni. Though maybe they could have "condensed" spells like how Open Seas works? With new emphasis on sorcery being the domain of the Zzaburi, it'd be odd to me if the Brithini, the most fundamental Malkioni of all, let the other castes touch it.

That's quite an inference to draw from only two listed examples.  Since the Malkioni invented sorcery and organized their society by it, I do feel it would be unlikely that they would have a parallel system of magic that isn't sorcery.  As for sorcery being the domain of the Zzaburi, all that's necessary is that Caste Magic be a limited version of Sorcery and incapable of innovation.

6 minutes ago, Richard S. said:

Ah, whoops, forgot that. Have you read the novel? What sort of abilities did they have? We know that Zzaburi can store MP on the spirit plane, and Talar have some sort of ability to command the lower castes.

It's kinda vague in there and the particular ability described in detail was kinda heroquesty.  But I imagine their Horals (as well as the Red Vadeli) can use weapon-related sorcery for their caste magic with spells such as Boon of Kargan Tor, Neutralize Armour and Ward Against Weapons.  Their mortal counterparts have some of these abilities (Boon of Kargan Tor is avoided because better spirit and rune magics are available).

30 minutes ago, Richard S. said:

As an aside, I imagine the Brithini can get away with their warriors not having spells because they make up for it with sheer talent and the backing of phenomenally powerful Zzaburi. Their Horali won't be slinging any spirits your way, but they'll probably be lit up like a christmas tree with enchantments and have more skill in their pinky than your whole band combined.

The Brithini Horals will have Caste Magic.  In Greg's unfinished Arkat novel, the leading Horals in the Brithini army had various magical abilities.

1 hour ago, Godlearner said:

But not all Malkioni are caste static and we have discussed learning sorcery outside Zzaburi caste.

You really have to use examples.  The Loskalmi do not trust Wizards in general and reserve the position for Men-of-All they trust.   The Seshnegi are caste-static.  The Safelstrans do not have caste but their sorcerers tends to be involved with Arkati Secret Societies.  In all cases, the Sorcerors composes less than 1 in 100 of the population and a sorcerer that quits to become a fighter is an unusual story rather than sometime that routinely happens in Malkioni society.

4 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

Right, but you are assuming a warrior picking up sorcery. If you start the other way, an apprentice going bad for example and then becoming a warrior things are work out much better. A warband with a "pet" sorcerer is a much tougher nut to deal with.

I'm assuming a warrior picking up sorcery because the topic was teaching sorcery to the non-Zzaburi.  A Zzaburi that starts prancing about in armour is likely breaking caste and becoming magically weaker. 

6 hours ago, JRE said:

If you take the Jack of all trades adventurer types, sorcery certainly does not do much for the effort required. But what if you have a sorcerous support, one in each ten warriors, for instance, but at a ratio much higher than the wizards assigned to the military.

The trouble that post could also be filled by a magical specialist in either rune or spirit magic, who are much more common on ground and more effective than your sorcery specialist fighter.  You mention that a sorcery fighter is more likely to cast their magics on other people but that also applies to the magical support specialists of other kinds - HeroQuest RPG even had an Ernaldan subcult for combat support.  

6 hours ago, JRE said:

Add Sorcerous long duration bonus to your short duration spirit and rune magic, and you have a big benefit, just at the cost of having 10% less frontline combatants (though maybe effective second line ones). I am thinking of magics such as Boon of Kargan Tor, Neutralize Armor or Ward against weapons, which can have significant effects with long durations

To get RAW for 50% chance for the above spells requires 50% writing, three spell skills, two Runic Knowledges (Death and Stasis) and two Techniques (Summon and Dispel).  The Runes and Techniques alone is four seasons, the spells another three.  All this is becoming significantly costly timewise for a warrior who studies in sorcery, so much so that he'd be better off not getting involved in combat at all.  As for the magic, he's going to boost nine other warriors.  Let's say that he has 30 magic points.  That's lot for somebody in the Colymar.  That's about 3 magic points of spells each which is barely better than the other warriors' own magics (bladesharp 3 etc).

The numbers aren't stacking up.  To be effective, the sorcerer has to be in the role full-time, which proves the Malkioni reasoning about Caste.  If you want the Malkioni warriors to have sorcerous combat effects then the appropriate mechanism is, I think, Caste Magic and Rightness (My own thinking: treat the Rightness Score as a Free INT and assign sorcery spells to taste).   Or you could give them a Hrestoli Runespell that gives them the temporary runic knowledge of a specific rune and +10% to spell skills per magic point expended in the Runespell.  Which has the added advantage of getting up the nose of the nearest Wizard.

1 hour ago, Godlearner said:

Is there enforcement of this? Do the Rokari seek out those from lower castes and persecute them? 

Here we really get into legal philosophy.  The Rokari Wizard has an obligation to uphold Caste.  If he doesn't, he loses Rightness and becomes magically weaker.

Not acting contrary to caste is simple enough.

Encouraging others to break caste (ie by teaching them sorcery) is reasonable but the lines in the sand start to become less defined.

Doing nothing while somebody else visibly breaks caste?  If he's a weak peasant, then the answer is clear.  But what if he's a powerful noble?

Having a vague clue that someone or somewhere is possible breaking caste.  A few excitable wizards might think action is necessary but others might want more evidence before they are moved to act.

And of course, following your caste so harshly that it oppresses others and causes them to break caste.  Nothing "wrong" here.