metcalph

28 minutes ago, AndreJarosch said:

Lo-metal (aluminium), metal of the Fire inside the Earth God (no clue why one would make a tiara out of aluminium, but looks like it)

Napoleon III had aluminium dishes and cutlery coz they were more expensive than gold (in the good old days before electrolytic refining). 

Just goes to show like his preference for the Academic Art, Napoleon III had no taste. 

1 hour ago, PhilHibbs said:

Those copper-coloured squares and spikes, and the silvery circlet at the bottom right, can't both be Lo-Metal.

In my pdf (I'm looking at it right now), the circlet is labelled ul-metal.

Looking at Bertalor's Text 

Quote

Lo-metal (aluminum) is the metal of Lodril, the fire-god. Just as fire is the lightest element, this too is the
lightest metal. It is red in color, like fire. This is a much-coveted metal for weapons, being light but firm, second
in desirability only to ur-metal. This stems from Lodril’s purity.

The two lo-metals is possibly not an error (the original exists in the Elder Secrets book) but a genuine gloranthan confusion.  That is the solid form of quicksilver is referred to as lo-metal while the liquid version is sa-metal (and Bertie seems unaware they could be transformed).  I did once think of the red lo-metal as being brass and the gray one as being zinc.  Strabo refers at one point to a false silver in the context of making brass which sounds like Lodril. But now I think it more likely that Bertalor *thought* the lo-metal was associated with Lodril and that his metal really is unenchantable Brass.

2 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

This has been talked about in the past (Knight Fort location) but I noticed the AAA doesn't show Knight Fort.

I am guessing its somewhere near the spot indicated by the red arrow on the clip. Does this location look about right to everyone?

 

Knight Fort is actually shown in the RQG Rulebook p121 as being on the river that flows near Monkey's Ruins (or five hexes north and one hex northeast)

Just received the voucher and checked.

https://www.chaosium.com/runequest-weapons-equipment-hardcover/

The Guide to Glorantha, Fortunate Succession (Stafford library) and Dorastor Land of Doom (Avalon Hill) are the best sources of information about it.  Be warned: there's no detailed description of the Empire, just scattered nuggets throughout. 

27 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

 

The Wolf Pirates were not a presence in the Mirrorsea until Harrek destroyed the Holy Country fleet in 1616.  

Wolf Pirates were in the area as early as 1613 according to Cults of Prax.  According to tales #10, they were originally led by Orstando Blackwoldf who led them to the Three Steps in the previous decade.  

5 hours ago, Eff said:

So... the answer is that the Marazi acquired sailors from Kethaelan refugees and remnants of the expeditionary force but at no point have developed any kind of capacity to construct ships on their own? Because if they were a closed society that would explain why they would remain unable to build ships after decades of interaction with the outside world, but instead they seemingly just don't adapt themselves to the new world in any way beyond this initial infusion of ships and sailors. 

Who said the Marazi were a closed society?  Only you.  All I have been saying is that as Pirates, they could easily grab their ships from outside and pointed to the well-known Holy Country Fleet.  Hence there is no need for major shipworks on the island, which is at odds with its description.

5 hours ago, Eff said:

This all feels extraordinarily convoluted as compared to "the Amazons have significant manufacturing capability and this is why they're a maritime power with crossbow-equipped marines on their warships."

There is only one crossbow, shown on one frieze.  Your argumentation is kinda like arguing that Broos should have metal-working capabilities because they are often armed with bronze weapons and armour.

4 hours ago, Eff said:

Caribbean pirates were residents of a broader society which built ships and cast cannon, and then in turn they were mostly experienced in repairing and operating ships and cannon before becoming pirates.

In other words, they didn't make the ships themselves.  

4 hours ago, Eff said:

In this model, the Marazi are outsiders to the building of ocean-going ships and to the construction of crossbows, and it becomes a little incredible to assume that they got all of their ships and weapons by getting lucky with attacks by canoe or ambushing a lone ship beaching on Trowjang and then building from there without ever developing any kind of construction or engineering expertise. 

A Holy Country Fleet sailed into the Suam Chow and suffered heavy losses.  Harstar of the South hired "several shiploads of Kethaelan survivors" (Guide p429) and with them conquered Melib three years later.   What precisely then is your objection to the Amazons acquiring ships in the same way (considering that Trowjang lies closer to Kralorela than the city of Gach in Teshnos)?  

Likewise the information about the Amazons accepting foreign women into their lands is well established but according to you, they must be forever outside any broader society and incapable of accepting female sailors from the Holy Country Fleet?  

4 hours ago, Eff said:

On top of all of this, warships in classical antiquity were specialized vessels that were very different from mercantile vessels, so we have to ask whether they got effective warships from getting lucky several times in a row. 

Warships were in the Holy Country Fleet (they used treaties, force and judicious evasion into deep waters to gain passage through Fethlon - Guide p144).  Besides the Opening evolution of shipbuilding was that the first Holy Country ships were triremes with other designs appearing later.   So all the ships in the Holy Country Fleet would have been of one design - the trireme - in the 1580s.

On 7/30/2022 at 9:16 AM, Erol of Backford said:

Related to the culture, the Amazons almost seem privative with no industry and likely no real cities, besides the one on the map? Wouldn't they be more apt to use spears and self bows than swords and crossbows? Does anyone else find this odd? Yes I get it that they pirate from others but it wouldn't be the norm or so I am thinking...

What's wrong with pirating from others?  They are known as being rather successful pirates and it seems a rather huge leap to me that they wouldn't use whatever weapons they have plundered and are reliant on a hithertoo unseen military-industrial complex.  Or do you think the Pirates of the Carribean made their own ships and cast their own cannon?

Rather than Yelmalio, the Amazon could try worshipping at a Yelorna Temple.  The mythology's undeveloped and the local worshippers are going to be somewhat tolerant.  There's two places they could worship at - the Temple in the Rubble and among the Unicorn Women.

15 hours ago, Eff said:

Trowjang supposedly is at constant war with everyone apart from the hsunchen and aldryami around them, but the material in the Guide is a bit confused- the Marazi have one settlement with a thousand residents and 120,000 total people but apparently build warships and manufacture crossbows from their many small villages.

It doesn't say they build warships and manufacture crossbows.  They make hardwood charms.  They are more likely to have acquired the warships and crossbows from raiding neighbouring countries.  

2 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Not related but in Enclosure Issue 1 it says Kallyr kills Gunda and Harrek kills Kallyr but that is 1997. I had not seen that before even I had the zine for over 20 years...

It's from Argrath's Saga in King of Sartar (1st Edition).

Maybe in Rinliddi. 

1 minute ago, Erol of Backford said:

Are these Amazons semi divine in any way, like (hate to say it) Wonder Woman? I mean like was Linda Carter at some of the conventions back in the day... Kidding aside would they be taller, stronger, faster. Do they live longer?

Nobody knows.  Foreign women who become accepted aren't otherwise noted as inferior.

1 minute ago, Erol of Backford said:

And wouldn't there also be a shrine to Tolat/Shargash at any Elmal/Yemalio/Lightfore temple as were they not brothers/half brothers?

Probably not Elmal as he left his old people behind for the Lightbringers.

Shargash would be honored at Sun Dome Temples in Peloria, mainly in a propitiatory role rather than as a source of Rune Magic.

He's to distant to be known in Sun County, I'd think.  Maybe Hector has heard of him but that's about it.

4 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Araslithos was born after a two year pregnancy speaking wisdom and prophecy. Was Araslithos the Sage a male or female? When did they live?

Araslithos would have been born on Towjang.  The Guide states they have always lived there but Trowjang as a country becomes significant only after the Closing (It's first labelled circa 1450 ST, not even appearing in the 1220 ST map).  It's noteworthy that the Island was part of the Middle Sea Empire but nobody in our sources (Middle Sea Empire) has a word to say about them.  My guess is that the Amazons took a turn for the worse after the Goddess Switch and when the Closing struck, started killing the Men.  

Araslithos would have been born in the period between 1220-1450 ST and contributed a kind of civilizing influence upon the Amazons.  That way the Amazonian population grew and they became significant enough for the mapmakers to take note off.

4 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Are any of the Towjang children male and if so what do they do with them?

Slavery has been mentioned.  A nicer solution is that in their raids, they take the newborn males with them and exchange them for unwanted females.

4 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

What happens if a Towjangian decides to be chaste/celibate and remain a virgin, do they become an outcast?

The Amazonians are chaste with Tolat.  The literature is silent on what happens with non-worshipping women but they can be tolerated.

4 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Where would a Towjang sage go to study if they would do that, somewhere in Kralorela perhaps?

They don't need to study elsewhere.  They can sit at home, read the inscriptions on the ancient temple ruins and make sense of them through their divine parentage.

4 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

I see hundreds of references to Toldat and read a good many but who are they and is there a cult write up of them? Any sources are appreciated!

The oldest reference to them in the Genertela Boxed set had them as a mixture of the cults of Uleria and Humakt.  Which means it was a Humakti war cult with an APPx5 test to become an initiate and an APPx1 test to become a Rune Lord with a couple of Ulerian runespells thrown in.  The Cult of Shargash in the Cults Book to Come from what few tidbits have been made does not follow this.

The Glorantha Sourcebook mentions a Goddess called Teshana who abandoned her husband (Somash the Sun God) and took up with Tolat.  So I think the Amazons might be an earth fighting cult (a fusion between Babeester God and High King Elf) with Tolat being an associate cult.  

I've only seen an announcement for the Starter Set and Weapons and Equipment came out shortly after that as a PDF with the printing still to come.  That said, I note chaosium's silence during a discussion about the the new policy pf combined releases which could be read either way (Yes, it's true or No, the discussion is too silly to merit comment).

6 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

I m clearly not malkionism expert (old or new version) but when I read the separate worship I imagine something like the irl "christian worship the sunday" and "pagan worship the other days". And that's still like the old version "malkionism= church" I disliked.

I don't see what the problem is.  The Orlanthi, Kralori and Pelorians do not have a one stop "worship everything" shop so why should the Malkioni?  What's being described is worship of the Invisible God who is separate from the others.

6 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

why not imagine, in the same @JRE split, that the one cast's ceremony day is a mix between gods worshipping under zzaburi "control" (if they are not the priests themselves), mundane business, and a part of philosophy and rules malkion/zzabur/hrestol  "lessons" ?

Because the Gods are not under Zzaburi control (unless you are in Carmania).  The Loskalmi don't trust the Zzaburi and their rulers would think the Gods are beneath them.  In Seshnela, the Nobles would control the worship of the Gods by the others.  In Ralios, the Arkati can barely agree on who Arkat was so any agreement on how to worship the Invisible God is non-existent.

6 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

I mean they are "one people" from the beginning (or at least for a long long long time), that's not like some pagan people conquered 50 years ago by a foreign power worshipping the only one and trying to convert them to the civilized true religion.

They are one people in that they practice Rightness and support the Wizards.  Beyond that, they are bitterly split.

7 minutes ago, sufiazafran said:

If I remember correctly, Lodril ends up as king of the underworld in some sort of dualistic kingdom with Yelm (as above so below, I guess?) ¿Does that mean that there was light in the underworld before Yelm? 

Deoends on who you talk to.  Lodril says yes.  Yelm and Dayzatar say no.  Two against one?

7 minutes ago, sufiazafran said:

If he first touched earth in Caladraland ¿What is Lodril's mountain? ¿Is it a stronghold he created after his descent?

Lodril touched down in many places.  Everybody says their local volcano was the first.  A much better question to ask them would be why the Vent is so much bigger than their own volcano if Lodril first came down there?

7 minutes ago, sufiazafran said:

¿Did he spend some time on earth before going to the underworld?

Lodril spend much time on, in and under Earth.  He likes all positions unlike Yelm and Dayzatar.

12 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

but where are the gods then ?

The Gods have their separate worship ceremonies which are pretty much like the pagans.  I understood the question to refer to the Invisible God.

Among the Seshnegi, I think it's largely the tithing of magic points to the wizards.  In return the wizards enliven the proceedings with:

• Warnings of supernatural events to come
• Lectures on how to maintain rightness, with detailed reference to numerous failings observed by the Wizards
• Contrived summonings of fearsome spirits who are then driven away by the spells of the Wizards.
• Warnings against heretics that seek to overthrow the social order as maintained by the wizards (ie Men of All and Arkati)
• Ostentatious blessings cast on the community for the coming week, such as Good Weather
• Thanks and praise is offered to the Ancestors who have gone before.

Among the Loskalmi, worship ceremonies are mainly attended by the Men-of-All, Guardians and prospects.    There it's not so much as the collection of magic points but rather contact with the Hidden Mover.  The ceremony is a lengthy ritual to obtain Joy.  First comes the medispections/self-criticisms in which various attendants confess error that prevents them from joy.  A swift correction* and the real ceremony begins.  Most achieve spiritual satisfaction but sometimes one is seized to utter oracular portents. 

*If the error is serious then one probably does their correction in private before turning up to the public ceremony to avoid subsequent shame.

6 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

Polestar is the constant guiding star of sailors. [I made this one up.]

Polestar is the Ruling God of Vormain (Me too).

18 hours ago, soltakss said:

Sure, he became a worshipper of Humakt, but did that break the Hrestoli Code?

I don't know enough about it to say.

In the olden days, when we thought that Malkioni only worshipped the Invisible God, that might have been true. It is looking increasingly less true now.

That's an interesting point.  To having mastered the arts of sorcery would have meant that he would have abandoned any worship of Humakt.  But before then he was a Brithini.  So to have been a full Man-of-All would mean that demonstrate his martial prowess before being inducted into the arts of sorcery.  But we know he had some trouble with the Brithini authorities before he became a Seshnegi and one of the stated reasons could have been the worship of his father through his sword.

Extrapolating this to the Loskalmi, I think that the Guardians (soldier) can and do worship War Gods.  But they are encouraged not to become too devoted (and if they do, further promotion is blocked).  Hence I would expect to see humakti initiates but not rune lords.

43 minutes ago, JonL said:

I also think Arkat probably embraced Hrestolism before he was fully Illuminated. 

At what point do you consider Arkat to have been fully illuminated?

2 minutes ago, Darius West said:

But the God Learners are obviously wrong. 

I disagree.

2 minutes ago, Darius West said:

Clearly the God Learners have broken the true rules of their caste or they would have stayed immortal, which they clearly aren't.

Even Malkion grew old before his untimely death.  What I think Rightness is about is strengthening the immortal self - the logical part of you  The Brithini and Vadeli believe it is lost after death and the other Malkioni disagree.

2 minutes ago, Darius West said:

To say the Vadeli have 'Wrongness' cannot be correct or they wouldn't be immortal. 

Which requires that Rightness be the cause of Brithini and Vadeli immortality which I don't think is correct.

2 minutes ago, Darius West said:

I propose that the Vadeli have just gamed the system without breaking the rules, like any good psychopath when confronted with inconvenient laws; they have cunningly 'legal loopholed' their lifestyle to their convenience through casuistry and so forth.

The word from Greg was the Vadeli are gloranthan Cainists - a gnostic sect who believed that everything taught in the Old Testament was the work of the wicked demiurge and thus wrong.  To achieve salvation, one must therefore break those teachings.   The Guide supports this with a picture of a Brown Vadeli haveing long fingernails to avoid material work.  So I think they are more sophisticated than just good psychopaths.

46 minutes ago, Darius West said:

So, how does all this interesting speculation relate to the Vadeli?

They have Wrongness IMO.

Elaborating on this further, Rightness appears to me to be a God Learner elucidation that made acting according to one's caste much easier, so much so that even their bitterest enemies use them.  Like Arabic Numerals does for math.  Prior to this everybody used their weird systems with strengths and weaknesses but no underlying unity.  Malkioni who lived before the God Learners (Brithini and Vadeli) who act according to their archaic codes but their kindred born after that time use the God Learner scheme.