M Helsdon

3 hours ago, Salla said:

I love this thread.

I must ask re the Esrolian houses, why do the Oxen need stalls? 

The Sartarite rural houses mostly include (the cottar has no oxen, so no stalls) stalls because it's traditional, even in longhouses, to have an area for livestock. Oxen are valuable; without them land can't be sown, and given the Sartarite tendency to cattle raiding, keeping them close is only sensible. I haven't included a livestock area for the urban houses, though some might include stables for horses or other riding animals.

9 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Nice design!  Do you have a rough scale for what's likely supportable for roofing (given some slope and likely terracotta tiles in Nochet)?

As I noted on the G+ thread: Many of the halls of Nochet are likely complexes of these townhouses built over differing periods as the particular House grew,  added additional buildings for junior branches of the family, interior gardens, pig sties or other domestic animals, specialized craft buildings, etc. The Enfranchised Houses are effectively small palaces but likely retain similar features in certain wings.

I think these variations will account for not only rectangular, but other somewhat irregular forms across the city, but I'm going to play around a bit with this model and see how it works for my players' House's hall complex. 

The roof: not overly large - see the thatched roofs on the previous page for the size of the roof span. I would hazard that the slope of roofs in Esrolia would be less than in Sartar - less snow. As a model, the Romans could span a roof space (using wood) of up to 30m wide, but that indicates a large and expensive building; ordinary homes would have a much smaller unsupported span.

In drawing these, both the Sartarite and Esrolian, I had a relatively small size in mind, with a width no greater than an ordinary Roman house. The interior courtyard actually permits a larger size because the individual roof spans aren't great. The chieftain's hall, on an earlier page, is large and expensive, with its roof approaching the maximum possible for the 'period'. Regarding weight, thatched roofs, if properly made are thick and heavy, at least as heavy as a tiled roof. I've watched a house being thatched, and whilst the individual bales were light enough for a man to carry up a ladder, in total, the thatch is no slight weight.

When buildings 'expand' over time there are a number of trends: demolition and rebuilding on a grander scale; the inclusion of other neighboring properties, simply knocking through walls (the irregular layout becomes a feature); a mixture of the two. Based on the ruins of building that grew in that way (the temples at Luxor and Karnak come to mind), an irregular outer edge is likely, with only the entrance façade being tidied up. Away from the street, I would expect large complexes at Nochet to be fairly haphazard.

Regarding roof span - wrong period, but it shows what can be achieved:

http://www.visitparks.co.uk/places/cressing-temple/

These barns built for the Knights Templar were very large and ornate for the period, but they show the sort of span basic engineering can give.

2 minutes ago, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

Very interesting. I've learnt a lot from this thread. Where would I find the map of notchet?

http://www.glorantha.com/nochet-city-of-queens/

Last one in this series for now... An Esrolian townhouse.

Whilst the general layout is similar to the Sartarite townhouse, there are distinct differences. The main entrance does not directly enter the building but opens onto a vestibule and then the central courtyard. The main doors are directly ahead, with a waiting room for visitors and clients. An audience/feast hall with a raised platform is to the left, and entry to the private portions of the house lie beyond this with an imposing staircase up to the family rooms. Offices and storerooms lie to either side of the corridor leading to the stairs. On the other side of the house are the kitchens, rooms for retainers and storerooms. The upper floor is occupied by the family, with the matriarch having a suite of rooms in the upper left, and other large rooms for other important members of the household. Elsewhere are rooms for children, and chambers for the older sons and daughters.

Looking at the latest map of Nochet, many of the Great Houses have a similar layout with a central courtyard, but tend to be rectangular complexes instead of square.

9 minutes ago, Joerg said:

The variations are slight, comparable to being on the equator at the equinoxes. For all practical purposes, the sun is overhead at noon. The full force of the noon sun will hit the roof.

On Glorantha, the equinoxes are when the Sun's path precisely bisects the Sun Dome - when the Sun will be directly overhead at noon; in summer the Sun Path heads north and the Sun is bright and days are longer, in winter, south and the Sun is pale and days are short?

A selection of rural and urban 'Ernalda Houses':

• At the top a two storey town house, belonging to a wealthy clan. The courtyard is partially roofed, with a colonnade. The hearth for 'entertaining' is to the right, the family hearth to the left. Rooms for servants and workshops lie at the rear of the house. Two sets of stairs lead to the upper floor: the family stairs on the left, servants' on the right. The family rooms: sleeping accommodation, shrines etc. are on the upper floor.
• At the bottom, two large houses with an enlarged internal courtyard, a more modest carl's house, and a cottar's cottage.

The two storey house has an internal gallery on the upper floor, with windows overlooking the courtyard. I imagine in the Esrolian equivalent the gallery might be on the outer wall.

7 hours ago, Joerg said:

Unlike earth's northern hemisphere, I don't think that south will be associated with sun in the same way that it was north of the tropic. Glorantha is a tropical world, the sun is standing right overhead every noon. That means east and west are the important solar coordinates.

The Sun Path varies with the seasons, so the relative angle of the Sun will vary. Regarding house orientation, I see an alignment north/south, east/west as implicit in an Ernalda House, and living quarters, at least in Genertela, being on the south side to gain maximum warmth.

5 hours ago, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

Ah ha. So thats the kind of look for Orlanthi settlements in Sartar,  combined with the info you've given us on the steads built to a Square earth rune shape with courtyard? So a settlement like Apple lane would have this sort of style of building, and Jonstown too?

I suspect that houses in an urban setting are likely to be more variable in size and shape: space within the walls is often at a premium and only the wealthy can afford not to be pragmatists about the layout of their houses. Many of the structures at Apple Lane are not homes but halls and barns. In Pavis there are some square houses with central courtyards or light wells, but many buildings are rectangular and divided into apartments and tenements.

Seen from above.

28 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

 

 

I should also add that I looked at some house plans for Mycenaean and Minoan houses.

Also suspect that a cottar and half-carl's cottage is square, but laid out like a Steadholder's House, but without the barn.

Purely my interpretation (and I've made a few changes to Jeff's design) but taking the outline and a few other sources, I come up with the following:

• A Steadholder's House, or Longhouse. Private habitation and hearth to the left, barn to the right.
• A Chieftain's Hall, modified slightly to fit into the square template. The 'public' hearth below, with a raised platform to the right, and private partitioned rooms for guests and retainers; the chief's private hearth above, with the chief's quarters and those of his guard. The Chieftains Hall might also be the house of a wealthy farmer.
• Two twinned longhouses, sharing a common open yard. I doubt the actual layouts would be exactly similar.
• An 'Ernalda House' with the barns above, a central courtyard (though it might be a roofed space), the 'inner rooms' to the left, including a hearth, private rooms for the family fronted by a platform; the 'outer rooms' to the right, including a hearth and guest chamber.
• A variant 'Ernalda House' similar to the first, but with the outer hearth below and two other chambers for guests, retainers, etc.

I've assumed that in the 'Ernalda Houses' retainers and lesser members of the family sleep in the inner hearth. The variant provides the guards or door keeper with a hearth and so might be more suitable for colder climes. Regarding heat, the animals in the barn will generate warmth, and the hearths will circulate heat for the private rooms.

May be of interest...

https://www.lessingimages.com/search.asp?a=L&lc=202020204DBC&ln=Museum+fuer+Vorgeschichte%2C+Asparn%2FZaya%2C+Austria&p=1

2 hours ago, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

Excuse my ignorance, but is The Coming Storm meant as an update and replacement for Sartar kingdom of Heroes? or as a compliment and extension of that material? 

No, The Coming Storm details the Cinsina and especially the Red Cow clan and their neighbors, so it provides a more detailed examination of some people and places mentioned in earlier books.

Where there's any apparent discrepancies, regarding house design, I imagine those can be attributed to variation within a culture: pre-modern societies never presented the same monoculture in architecture we are used to.

4 hours ago, Mankcam said:

From what I can gather, there is an upcoming HQ campaign that will help flesh out the contemporary depictions of Orlanthi quite well, and many of us are patiently waiting for it. I'll use it for RQ, regardless of whether it is for HQ or not; these things are pretty easy to port across.

For what it is worth, I am portraying Orlanthi as a mix of Thracians and Dacians, with a few Norse influences here and there (more from the History Channel's 'Vikings' television series show rather than the classic Norse stereotypes). I think the Dacians may be the best fit if any one culture needs to be referenced however.

The Coming Storm is fairly rich in depictions of Sartarites, and almost system free. Volume 2 will feature the adventures; Volume 1 has the history, locations and people. In addition to a Thracian/Dacian influence there's a fairly strong Mycenaean one as well.

19 hours ago, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

No I haven't got those. Do they have illustrations of typical orlanthi settlements,or are they just plans? They sound like the best reference yet for Sartar. Presumably they are more thorough in background then previous Runequest stuff?

They have illustrated overviews of various settlements, ranging from cities (though most Sartarite cities are more like towns) and villages.

7 hours ago, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

Following on from the questions about heortling steads,what are the best sources for visualising the cities and towns in Sartar, like Boldholm and jonstown? 

Several are shown as semi-maps in Sartar:KoH (Boldhome, Swenstown, Wilmskirk) and Sartar Companion (Jonstown, Runegate)  .

1 hour ago, Lurking Grue said:

What is the status of The Coming Storm (Red Cow vol 1)? I haven't heard anything concrete about it since a blog post on Moon Design's site (about its cover being ready) way back when. I sure hope it hasn't been put on a long hold (because of all the RQ2 reprints) - or worse yet, abandoned (suffering the fate of Adventures in Glorantha, *sad panda*). Please tell me it's still being released and preferably soonish (like in 3-4 months).

I don't believe I'm speaking out of turn when I say that Volume 1 of The Coming Storm has finished layout.

2 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

I'd say the social organizations are important to Glorantha, not to RuneQuest. A GM can run a RQ campaign just fine without all the social organizations (i.e. cults). With Glorantha being so entirely focused around the various religions, magic, and mythic events that the cult structures dominates play. But is is a characteristic of the setting rather than the system.

It depends very much what sort of world you are trying to emulate: if it has any equivalence to Bronze of Iron Age societies then cults and guild-like organizations will be a fact of life.

3 hours ago, Warthur said:

So, you have the endless sea of Chaos, and you have the world as a bubble of not-Chaos within it. Things within the world which are of Chaos want to unmake the world to get back to the sea.

You may be considering the vestiges of Chaos named as the Pre-Dark, which were probably very different from modern Chaos. Glorantha is a tiny bubble of order within Chaos (an island of order is simply one of the many variations of chaos). Once it formed it evolved, the details of which vary depending on the metaphysical tradition you formed, going through an elemental progression and reaching a plateau of stability. There was a slow gradual leak of Chaos into Glorantha, but this was simply a raw material for the expansion and evolution of the cosmos. Then things went wrong, the order started to decay, and some of the entities within Glorantha invited Chaos in - on entering Glorantha much of that Chaos was also corrupted, as it was corrupted, so that it took on forms, personalties and the stability became unstable, with order diminishing. Only the victory in I Fought We Won and similar stands held Chaos back and the introduction of Time returned a semblance of order, replacing disintegration with entropy. But Chaos remains within Glorantha, and the portions which have being and intellect hate the restrictions that order places upon them. Where Chaos lingers it festers and grows.

Most Gloranthans realize their deities contributed towards the near end of the world, which is why, for example, the Lightbringers' Quest is so important to the Orlanthi, and why their Sacred Time rituals invite Chaos into their rite - so that it can be defeated.

The Red Moon is simply a step in the evolution towards the White Moon, as part of the resurrection of a moon goddess who died before Time.

1 minute ago, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

Great info thanks. The Coming Storm 1 sounds intriguing. Does Kindom of Sartar , and Sartar Companion remain a key reference for Dragon Pass despite some illustrations not quite hitting the mark? Will they be revised in terms of written content, or is it considered in keeping with the Guide to Glorantha?

Sartar: KoH and Sartar Companion remain key reference sources though only up to around 1621. The majority of the material remains valid, but of course the political situation is pretty fluid after that. The Coming Storm starts around the same time, but the campaign (in volume 2) runs on to the Dragonrise and beyond.

57 minutes ago, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

I'm tempted to buy Sartar Kingdom of Heroes and the Sartar Companion, but I'm hesitant, as I wonder whether there will be a new Runequest version of these released? 

I don't know regarding their re-release, but they mostly predate the Guide to Glorantha when the move towards more accurate pictorial representations picked up speed. The HeroQuest: Glorantha includes a great deal of accurate art, as will The Coming Storm volume 1. The latter is HeroQuest, not RuneQuest, but presents a great deal of systemless background material as well as a wealth of accurate picture references.

44 minutes ago, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

Interesting. looking at the changes in Apple lane revisited, mention of the guilds has been removed -The Horse Masters Guild and Weapon Masters Guild. I had put this down to the word "guild" having too strong an association with medieval guilds rather then an ancient concept.  But perhaps they're removal is more to do with Apples Lane's remoteness from Urban centres, with guilds being largely an Urban phenomenon?

Guilds and guild-like organizations tended to be urban.

Whilst there's nothing quite like the medieval guild organization in ancient Assyria or Babylon, there are strong indications of trade organizations, often tracing their origin to a 'trade-father', and people engaged in a particular trade often lived on the same streets or same area of town... Later in the Hellenistic world there were more guild-like organizations, especially for professions such as actors, doctors, weavers, dyers etc.

34 minutes ago, Joerg said:

In response to the question whether RQ has too strong social commitment for its characters (I think it doesn't, BTW), I started researching the origin of guilds and similar fraternities.

There are definitely guilds in modern Glorantha - see page 11 of the Sartar Companion which refers to the Guilder coin and the merchant guild of Jonstown. On these pages the merchant guild (mostly Issaries-based), Redsmiths Guild are mentioned, as well as the guilds of butchers, carpenters, leatherworkers, masons, weavers, and porters are all mentioned, as well as the Free Sages (Lhankor Mhy) who oversee the trades of scribes, alchemists, booksellers, parchment and ink makers. Similarly, Sartar: KoH makes mention of guilds of glass and leather guilds, and Pavis: GtA mentions Guild Elders, Guild Masters, Journeymen and their numbers (25 Elders, 120 Masters, 200 Journeymen, 50 guild wage-earners/junior apprentices). In addition to the Redsmith and Leather guilds, a jewelers guild, a merchants guild, a minstrels guild, riverman guild, stonemason's guild, weaponmasters guild are also mentioned.

43 minutes ago, TRose said:

 Would not many of the poorer resident around New Pavis and in Prax have sod cabins ( Like used in the Great Plains of the USA   in the 19 century) since they are quick and cheap to build?

The Wastelands are more desert chaparral, and Prax a semi-arid grassland than a prairie with thickly rooted grasses. It's unlikely that the resources to build sod houses are widely available in the vicinity of Pavis. Instead houses in Pavis utilize what is fairly available: adobe, stone, leather and reeds (from the River of Cradles).

43 minutes ago, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

Apple lane was quite confusing for me with Runequest 3rd edition, with the image of donald duck in full plate medieval armour! In light of these clarifications of Orlanthi culture how are we to interpret Apple lane now? For instance would there still be a "Sheriff"? Is there revised material that would help me visualise Apple Lane more inline with current thinking on Orlanthi culture? As a mostly RQ3 person where would be best to look? future publications? 

There's a Return to Apple Lane in the HQ Sartar Companion. Whilst not based in RQ, it contains a great deal of background information, set around 1621? Drolan Swordsharp is still there, the thane of Apple Lane.

You can download it here:

http://www.glorantha.com/docs/return-to-apple-lane/