M Helsdon
-
Posts
2,463 -
Joined
-
Last visited
-
Days Won
99
Content Type
Forums
Blogs
Gallery
Downloads
Profiles
Events
Posts posted by M Helsdon
-
-
9 hours ago, Joerg said:
What's your reference for Yelm the Rider only riding flying creatures? Rinliddic?
Gods of Light: Yelm from Wyrms Footnotes/Wyrms Footprints.
9 hours ago, Joerg said:The identification of Lightfore with Yelmalio by the Orlanthi is puzzling. Especially in light of the rather recent revelation of Yelmalio by Monrogh Lantern in Tarkalor's presence.
It's one of the pointers that Monrogh only claims to have refounded the Yelmalio cult - in reality he only refounded it in Sartar.
The Sun Dome Temples fought on all sides of the wars in Peloria during Third and Fourth Wanes (1355-1462), but were mostly allied with the Lunar Provincial Government from 1517 onwards. Given that Monrogh 'refounded' the cult around 1550, his claims are more than a little suspect.
-
3 hours ago, Jeff said:
There is a temple to Yelm in Mirin's Cross (the Golden Temple of the Brilliant Pillar). In Mirin's Cross, Yelm's wife is Dendara amongst the nobles, but he is also one of Ernalda's lovers. Redalyde has her own temple as an ancient tribal guardian (along with her faithful husband Hyalor). Whether Beren is another name for Hyalor is a question for the First Age, not the Third.
Although the Hyalorings were in Saird at the Dawn, their heirs are the Pure Horse tribes of Pent, Char-un, and the Grazelands. Not the modern farmers and cities of Saird, who are a mix of lowland Pelorians and Orlanthi. There are some vestigial remnants of the Hyaloring era with some cults (particularly the Red-Haired Goddess), but keep in mind that is submerged beneath many centuries of later settlement.
Thank you Jeff, that clears up a lot of my confusion.
-
5 hours ago, Kim said:
I'm assuming you're capable of conceiving of the idea that historians work with models, techniques, methods, and theories; and aren't just homespun truth-tellers about way-back-then. But I could be wrong; it seems you're saying that historiography is only a specific time and specific place, and that's it. Someone who is so refractory to acknowledging 'Friedman Analysis' as a common slang in hist-jabber is not the M. Heldson I've idolized.
I haven't used the term 'Friedman Analysis' and am not clear as to how Milton Friedman's test would be applied to history, real or Gloranthan. It's very difficult to quantify 'history'.
If you want a Historian more relevant to Glorantha, I'd suggest Herodotus.
His History is the same mix of historical fact, speculation, fabrication, and myth you'll find in the texts written as though written by Gloranthans.
In the real world we have historical texts, artifacts and archaeological sites, in Glorantha the 'objective' sources such as Cults of Prax or Cults of Terror (and both of those are potentially 'local') and much of the Guide, and 'subjective' sources such as King of Sartar, most of the Stafford Library, and the in-world texts quoted in the Guide. Many of the subjective sources are intentionally contradictory, and some are of highly dubious accuracy. King of Sartar seems to emulate most closely the matter of Arthur in sources such as the pseudo-historical Historia Regum Britanniae, various Welsh texts and others. It's not clear if Arthur, if he lived, was one figure or several, just as Argrath may be one man or several - the name is also a title - and echoes the earlier Arkat.
-
1
-
-
24 minutes ago, jajagappa said:
But who is the Horse Goddess? The shorn form of Hippogriff, a flying creature.
Hippoi. Which in Glorantha is the shorn form of hippogriff, and in ours, from the Greek, hippos, "horse". [It is mildly amusing that hippogriff is a mixture of Greek and Latin, and so its origin is a combination and in Glorantha it becomes divided... Greg's joke?]
Hippoi can't fly and so isn't ridden by Yelm the Rider.
24 minutes ago, jajagappa said:I think there's a lot more lurking (and possibility) to this myth.
I suspect there's a distinction between a horse goddess (which is a horse), and a goddess of horses (who protects horses and riders, like our world Epona or Rhiannon, and like Rhiannon, Redaylda isn't just a goddess of horses, but perhaps a goddess of sovereignty as well, for Saird).
-
1 hour ago, Joerg said:
It is Yelm the Rider who emulates the deeds of Hyalor, really.
Yelm the Rider riders ride flying creatures, specifically griffins? Not horses.
-
1 hour ago, Joerg said:
I find Saird to be the home base of the Traditionalists - those former powerful leaders who persecuted the draconic worshippers in the first half of the seventh century, when the temple of Domanand is reported to have been established.
True.
1 hour ago, Joerg said:Saird and Kerofinela have as much in common as Kethaela and Kerofinela. Mirin's Cross is part of Holay, an ancient Heortling territory. I am willing to grant an ancient rivalry between the Sylilings and the Heortlings (see the myth how Vingkot slew the Star Bear and created Grizzley Peak), but the southern part of Saird is Orlanthland.
False. Saird has been subject to a wider variety of cultural influences, primarily Solar, for centuries, in both conflict and co-operation. And more recently Lunar influences for nearly three centuries.
1 hour ago, Joerg said:To recapitulate - around 565 the first draconic worshippers become a factor in Orlanthland. By 600 the coven of priests ruling the "kingdom" of Orlanthland has declared a war on them, pushing them into the wilds and obscurity. By 650, Orlaront and his proven way of combining worship of Orlanth with being a dragonfriend begins to subvert the silent majority of the Heortlings, and by 700 those priests who oppose the draconic movement are no longer in power in Kerofinela where the draconic presence is strongest. This is when Saird becomes the foe of the draconic core lands. Basically, the traditionalist lands that still persecute the draconic worshippers secede from Orlanthland. So the leaders who take Domanand as their stronghold are the very ones that used to be in power over all of Orlanthland just 50 years earlier.
I am aware that this is not how you mean to rewrite the history of the Sun Dome Temples in Saird, but it is a valid interpretation of the evidence you present.
I haven't looked in detail at the political machinations in Orlanthland - I'm interested in the fact that the Sun Domers and Traditionalists in Saird held off the Draconics for nearly a century. After that, Sun Domers and Traditionalists fell under the sway of the Draconics.
1 hour ago, Joerg said:So basically we get a conflation of Beren the Hyaloring and his ancestor in the local cult.
They appear to be one and the same.
1 hour ago, Joerg said:We don't learn anything about the role of Elmal in the expansion of the Tharkantus cult. We do know that at least south of the dragonkill the Tharkantus cult lost to Elmal among the Heortlings (and Esrolians) like e.g. the Runegate Triaty or the Locaem while we get Yelmalio-worshipping Heortlings following Arim into Kerofinela from the north, including the Far Point tribe(s) and the Dinacoli.
I doubt there was any significant role of the minor Elmal cult in the expansion of the northern Tharkantus/Yelmalio cult.
The Dragonkill killed off the 'Tharkantus' cult in Dragon Pass, along with everyone else. It was destroyed by the Queens in Esrolia.
However, it survived in Prax.
1 hour ago, Joerg said:Hyalor was the riding god of the horse nomads of eastern Peloria and Pent, adopted by the Kargzant people. We know that the horse warlords of Dawn Age Peloria were pushed into Pent after the Theyalans aided the Dara Happan uprising.
Hyalor originally was not part of the Horse Nomad culture, but became their rider cult only after the warlords were dislocated from Peloria. From the Guide (p. 364):
The Sairdite merger between Vingkotlings and Hyalorings into the Berennethtelli indicates that the original Pure Horse folk were active in this region, and there was no influence of Kargzant. The rise of Vuranostum to emperor of Dara Happa also indicates their continued presence long after the Berennethtelli merger. They don't appear to be sedentary folk, though.
Hyalor appears to be Sairdite, specifically Beren.
1 hour ago, Joerg said:Somehow the Hyaloring inheritance (though not the Kargzant inheritance) made it into the Tharkantus cult. When and where?
Where? Saird.
When? It seems very ancient.
According to the write-up of the Yelm cult in the Cult Compendium, Hyalor was a son of a son of Yelm...
Tharkantus appears related to the name Kargzant with the addition of a Dara Happan masculine suffix (a distinct but possible shift in consonants). The Lunars associate the Little Sun with Reladivus, Kargzant and Yelmalio. The planet Lightfore, the Little Sun, is associated with Antirius by the Dara Happans, Yelmalio by the Orlanthi, and Kargzant by the Pentans. As the objects in the sky seem to express deities in Glorantha (even Orlanth has his stars) it seems probable that Reladivus, Kargzant and Yelmalio are 'avatars' of a single entity.
Reladivus was the god of Nivorah, which seems to have been located somewhere in Saird. Saird has been the center of the Tharkantus/Yelmalio cult for at least a thousand years.
Yelmalio is one of the sons of Yelm; perhaps Hyalor is a son of Yelmalio... No, he's a son of Yamsur, Yelmalio's dead brother. The association of the ancient Yelmalio cult with horses might thus be explained. The ancient Mirin's Cross trinity of Yelmalio as Defender, and Redaylda and Hyalor as Tribal Guardians is significant.
-
On 5/18/2016 at 11:41 PM, TRose said:
I tend to think there is some taboo against raping female Broo or none would live past a year.
Broos tend to lack taboos. Female broos gravitate towards the cult of Mallia as a survival strategy, because becoming gravid isn't a survival strategy for them.
The offspring of a broo and a human might be very similar to a satyr (and satyrs are sometimes mistaken as broo), or a human with a goat's head, or even a human with horns, or a Chaos horror. Chaos never gives standard results, the offspring will always display their nature somehow.
-
4 hours ago, jajagappa said:
Not working to retcon anything in the Guide here, but there is room for detail and nuance.
There's a limit to detail and nuance if a fantasy world isn't going to collapse into overkill.
There's a fine line between designing a background for playability, accessibility, comprehension and fun, and in some cases Glorantha has crossed that boundary in the past. I'm thinking of the retconning of Yelmalio which wasn't sufficiently marked as purely local, or the Entekosiad, which I tried to read again yesterday. It's only in the last few years that I have accumulated the entire Stafford Library, and I believe I can see why the Lunar equivalent to King of Sartar isn't on our shelves. Many years ago I was attempting to write an Alternate History set mostly in Britain in what would be the 1st century (I had the beginning and end but eventually couldn't work through the middle). This involved a fair bit of research, and I found an incredible resource online detailing every settlement of Roman Britain and a great deal more. I chatted online with its creator, and we were able to swap a few things. He also explained he started building the site to support his own novel of Roman Britain, but the site took over because he never had quite enough information. He never got beyond a few chapters because there was always a little more to add to his website. There comes a point where if you try to detail too much the minutiae take over.
No doubt the Entekosiad has its fans, but it hasn't helped my understanding of Glorantha - it's done the opposite. Too much detail and nuance will cause overload.
I'd taken the Guide as definitive, and using it and a few other bits of canon in the public domain, I've attempted to work out the history of the Sun Dome Temples, which led me to trying to determine more about Saird. It all started to appear to come together - with a few loose ends, but in real history, especially ancient history, loose ends are inevitable. A few well defined areas of doubt and uncertainty lent a sense of reality. Not every mystery should be explored. Not every question should have an answer.
I'd already come to the conclusion that the Horse Goddess of Saird has a number of husbands. I'd never considered Yelm (who seems more an exclusive deity of the nobility, has a specific wife, possibly concubines) would share a temple with the Armless Howler. Especially when in Mirin's Cross Redaylda’s husband is detailed to be another horse god, Hyalor/Beren. It simply feels politically, historically, mythically wrong.
-
1
-
-
Just now, jajagappa said:
Actually, no, it just means that the Lunar Empire rules Saird. This is the center of the Lunar Provincial Administration and it will work to ensure its position both magically and physically, including refocusing rituals. It's had 30+ years to do so.
And the Guide was 'written' in 1621, so the material should reflect the cultural and political situation that year.
There's no easy resolution.
2 minutes ago, jajagappa said:Also, remember as I said, this is an in-progress map. What time I've had over the past year+ has gone to Nochet, not the Saird material.
Understood.
-
7 minutes ago, jajagappa said:
Plus, we will find/discover new details as we work through an area in greater detail.
Retconning is inherently damaging.
8 minutes ago, jajagappa said:Also, there is no particular contradiction here. Hyalor is the hero who emulated the deeds of Yelm the Rider and is the husband that folk call upon. But as we see in Pavis book, it is Yelm who names and commands the Armless Howler.
Yet the Armless Howler (Redalda, Servant of Reladivus, Mistress of Nivorah) is at a disadvantage when opposing not the Emperor, but the Little Sun, named as Reladivus, Kargzant and Yelmalio...
No mention of Yelm, who attempts to Name all the Gods of Below. No special relationship between Yelm and the Armless Howler is apparent.
I imagine we can argue this out ad infinitum, but such minutiae are rarely satisfying.
-
51 minutes ago, David Scott said:
I have to disagree with you on this Martin. As @Jeff continually reminded me as I put too much detail in, the Guide is the view from 30000'. I would not take an omission in the Guide as it does not exist. There is a Gorakiki shrine on the South coast of Prax, it's not in the Guide as it was edited out as too much detail, but that does not mean that it's gone.
I would accept your opinion, if it were not that the Temple to Yelm and Redaylda is so large on the map. It would be visible from 30000', and the implications for the local culture are significant. 8-(
I would also note that the temples of Mirin's Cross are far too large for a Bronze Age urban center - there's a common error of inflation in fantasy worlds. In the real cultures these game settings attempt to emulate, large impressive structures were rare: you'd have to look at ancient Egypt, specifically the temples of Luxor/Karnak which had been subject to building programs for longer than Glorantha has had Time, ancient Babylon (even Nochet doesn't compare with Babylon at its greatest size), Alexander's Alexandria (about three times the population of Nochet), imperial Rome (and most temples were small and shut for most of the year), (Rome was ten times larger than Nochet) or Constantinople. You might argue that based on the syncretic combinations, Mirin's Cross is roughly analogous to Baalbek/Heliopolis but even the Roman temple complex, whilst impressive, wasn't as extensive as the temple zones of Mirin's Cross. For an assessment of scale, the ziggurat at Babylon (possibly the largest), the Etemenanki, had seven levels, reached a height of around 300 feet and was also 300 feet by 300 feet square at its base.
And even the Karnak Temple Complex isn't particularly large - I could walk from one side to the other of the Precinct of Amen-Re quite quickly. Even walking to the nearby Luxor Temple didn't take very long, despite the crowds.
Now the Colosseum in Rome is larger, 615 by 510 feet, but I expected it to be much larger, based on Gladiator, but Holywood always scales everything up. The Colosseum, imposing as it is, was built for a city with a population around a million (no Gloranthan city is as large).
-
3 hours ago, Kim said:
He can write that far back as modernity??? I should examine and struggle my errors out.
The only Thomas Friedman I can find has written the following:
- From Beirut to Jerusalem (1989; expanded edition 1990) – winner of the National Book Award in its first edition
- The Lexus and the Olive Tree: Understanding Globalization (1999; revised edition 2000)
- Longitudes and Attitudes: Exploring the World After September 11 (2002; reprinted 2003 as Longitudes and Attitudes: The World in the Age of Terrorism)
- The World Is Flat: A Brief History of the Twenty-first Century (2005; expanded edition 2006; revised edition 2007)
- Hot, Flat, and Crowded: Why We Need a Green Revolution—And How It Can Renew America (2008)
- That Used to Be Us: How America Fell Behind in the World It Invented and How We Can Come Back (Co-written with Michael Mandelbaum 2011)
All in the modern era: nothing about the Ancient World that Glorantha emulates.
-
58 minutes ago, David Scott said:
TRM wasn't all official is a better stance.
True, but... chariot racing in Esrolia would have been fun. It leaves the only culture apparently doing such races as the Lunar Empire (if that hasn't been retconned as well).
-
55 minutes ago, jajagappa said:
The temple was originally that of Beren/Hyalor and Redaylda. But Beren/Hyalor at this temple have acquired the attributes of Yelm the Rider due to Lunar influence. This is closely tied to the old myth of Yelm the Rider/Hyalor Horsebreaker. This is a key aspect of Lunar control of Saird. This temple holds at least some of the key artifacts in support of Appius Luxius and may include: the Lasso (or Rope or Lash) of Hyalor, the Golden Bit, the Bridle of Domination, the Fire-woven Blanket, and the Chariot of Lightfore. These artifacts suppress the sovereignty of Redaylda.
But the Guide to Glorantha doesn't say that. No mention of Yelm in Mirin's Cross. I'll take the Guide as Canonical and anything that contradicts it as not.
If it were a Temple to Yelm and Redaylda the Guide section of Mirin's Cross would have said so.
-
14 hours ago, jajagappa said:3 hours ago, Joerg said:
From the context in the History of Dragon Pass in the Second Age, the Sun Domers in Mirin's Cross may actually have been allies of the kingdom of Orlanthland - the previous paragraphs tell about the persecution of the draconic worshippers and their hiding in the fringes. The Traditionalists were of course the rulers of Orlanthland at this time. There was no EWF yet.
If you examine http://www.glorantha.com/docs/history-of-dragon-pass-in-the-second-age/ specifically:
c. 700. Saird ruled by “EWF”. (TFS)
So shows the map. BUT it is really a battle ground between the city of Domanand and the Kingdom of Orlanthland. While the Kingdom was still not called the EWF by/about this time, Obduran the Flyer or his faction is relatively strong. Dragons are active in the war.
You will find that Saird was an enemy of Orlantlanth in all its manifestations until it was conquered. As Domanand was the center of the Sun Dome and the center of resistance, it is apparent the Templars fought against the Orlanthi to the south.
2 hours ago, Joerg said:Where is the Hyalor as husband of Redaylda from? Your identification of Beren with Hyalor?
Redaylde Vingkotsdaughter married Beren the Rider. Redalda the horse-loving daughter of Orlanth (and presumably Ernalda) married Elmal. Both these events were the first foreigner marriage in Orlanthi myth, each being the reflection of the other in cyclical time.
Beren was a Hyaloring - one of the Pure Horse riders that roamed in Peloria. Apparently the Berennethtelli did not continue Pure Horse ways (herding only horse, no cattle or sheep) either, and indeed appear to have developed a taboo against eating horse meat except in the holiest sacrifices. I don't think that Beren was the person responsible for the taming of Hippoi after the damaging of the Hippogriff.
The Guide to Glorantha:
Redaylda’s husband is another horse god, called Hyalor, or less commonly Beren.
Although Yelmalio has been the divine defender of Mirin’s Cross since the Second Age, its tribal guardians are Redaylda and her husband Hyalor.
The latter being in the Mirin's Cross entry.
-
1
-
-
On 6/18/2016 at 11:45 PM, jajagappa said:
There may be one to Redaylda and Hyalor as well, but it was one Jeff wanted.
It doesn't make any sense...
-
34 minutes ago, jajagappa said:
I'm not sure that the Domes of Domanand need to be in a circle - I don't think they are necessarily 'Sun Domes' though perhaps they are. There may well be other ritual patterns in use, particularly to invoke anti-Draconic powers. Perhaps they fall into a pattern related to or to mirror the 2nd Age Sky. There may well be dangers or vulnerabilities in attempting to recreate the Perfect Sky.
Personally, I'd assume that domes are definitely a Solar architecture, especially given the evolution of Sun Dome Temples from earlier Solar temples. Some major earthworks forming the Sky Rune would also be possible, as the intent was to hold off dragons, and dragons are big.
34 minutes ago, jajagappa said:The 3rd Age map does show the few remnants of these ancient domes shown in pale grey. Some of them were built over though such as the Dome of Verrogors.
I noticed - I suspect if you had a more detailed larger scale map you'd find large portions used as walls by later buildings, or their circular foundations defining later construction. Believe there are a number of places in Italy where the site of amphitheaters is still apparent by curved roads and buildings.
Not far from where I live, the location of a Roman Mansio is still apparent -- or at least the earth platform it was built on - a marked sudden slope in a road. Many years ago, when a road nearby was being excavated, the archaeologists allowed visitors and pointed out the black layer nearby marking where Boudicca came through. They also found a horse burial, an octagonal temple (quite small) and the baths associated with the Mansio nearby.
34 minutes ago, jajagappa said:As for Redaylda, well you'll find her temple, but her husband there is Yelm the Rider. ;-)
The Guide mentions Redaylda and her husband Hyalor being revered in Mirin's Cross, but makes no direct mention of Yelm. I'd expect a temple to Redaylda and Hyalor at Mirin's Cross.
-
Another chunk of my 'history'...
During the ensuing period of troll and Heortling domination of southern Peloria, the other Sun Dome Temples were relit by the prophet Severinalus the Rekindler. Severinalus named the god Tharkantus, the Empty Saving Hearth, prepared for the darkness to come. He settled many temples, for many places prepared once again for the time that the fires all went out. Tharkartus was later recognized to be the same entity as the Elvish Sun god, Halamalao, and in many places the two races shared worship for centuries.
It was perhaps during this period that the god of the Sun Dome Temples was also given the name Yelmalio, possibly the Theyalan pronunciation of the Elvish name or as a title. Whilst the cult had its origins in the Solar cultures to the north, its presence on the borderlands with the Storm cultures to the south resulted in an increasing intermingling of the two traditions. What began as a title gradually supplanted the northern name.
In 562 a Sun Dome Temple was founded in Holay. Trolls resisted the construction but met with disaster when a trollkin lieutenant betrayed the attack because the White Women among the Sun Domers had treated him kindly.
Circa 640 another was established at Domanand (modern Mirin’s Cross) in Saird at the edge of Orlanthland, built as a stronghold against the dragons and their followers. It boasted unique enclosed domes with anti-dragon runes upon their surface, and despite its Solar nature provided a center of resistance for the Orlanthi Traditionalists against the Draconic Orlanthi to the south for a long time. The city of Lolon was also rebuilt.
Initially, the cult of Yelmalio fiercely resisted the rise of the Kingdom of Orlanthland from their city of Domanand and spearheaded armies invading the upland regions.
Saird became a battleground between Domanand and Orlanthland, which was transforming into the Empire of the Wyrms Friends. But by 750 the EWF conquered Saird; the gold domes of Domanand were shattered - their ruins are still apparent in the modern city. The Lament of Domeland, composed by several poets who survived the catastrophe, recalls the fall of the city.
The EWF revealed the Draconic Sun to the survivors. The Sun Dome Temples subsequently became a major military arm of the empire with their soldier-cultists used as mercenaries. Many new temples to Yelmalio were established on the frontiers of the EWF in Fronela, Ralios, and near Pent and in its core lands in Dragon Pass. Another was built at Hesterneo in Esrolia, later destroyed by Queen Orenda.
Dara Happa was occupied by the EWF in 850 after its Emperor was killed by elite members of the Golden Dragon Society.
In 877 the first Arrowsmith king of the city of Pavis in Prax requested aid from the Sun Dome Temple in Dragon Pass against the trolls and giants. The mercenaries were granted lands to the south of the city. A new Sun Dome Temple was built on the edge of the Wastelands.
-
39 minutes ago, jajagappa said:
Speaking of Mirin's Cross, here are my working maps for the site during 1st, 2nd (pre-Verenmars), and 3rd (current) Ages. You'll note the varied changes in the river courses around the nearby hills and growth of the city. It has expanded considerably over the last 40+ years as the center of the Lunar Provincial Admin.
Nice.I'd suggest that you need at least two Second Age maps of Domanand: before and after the EWF conquest.Before: many 'Sun Domes' probably arranged in a circle.
After: one Sun Dome temple, and the ruins of many other domes - their ruins are still apparent in the modern city.And perhaps also After: fall of EWF.Elsewhere, Domanand Resistance
c. 640.
Domanand is established (modern City of Mirin’s Cross) in Saird, and soon dominates the surrounding area. This is at the edge of the EWF core, and was built as a stronghold against dragons and their followers. Its unique enclosed domes with antidragon temples upon their surface were unique, and provided a center of resistance for the Traditionalists for a long time. At last the domes were broken of course, and though their ruins are apparent in the modern city, they are not intact.The Guide says of Mirin's Cross in the Third Age: The city boasts Dara Happan towers (greatest being the Golden Temple of the Brilliant Pillar), Sun Dome temples, the great Lunar Temple of the Provincial Church, and a Temple of the Reaching Moon.I'd also expect there to be temples to Redaylda and her husband Hyalor in the Second and Third Age, and perhaps to Yelorna in the Second Age, pre-EWF conquest. -
12 minutes ago, Tindalos said:
I'm personally assuming that First Council era cult of Yelorna originated with the Berenethtelli Horse Orlanthi of Saird. A celestial rider (on a horse-like beast) and sister to the Sun Rider who married Redaylda the Earth Mare. Her worshippers spread with the Council, uniting with similar cults across Genertela, and spreading their traditions and their name for the Celestial Queen.
According to Orlanthi traditions, Beren (aka Hyalor) was a foreigner, possibly from Nivorah, and his wife is Redaylda, the Horse Goddess, Vingkot's daughter by the Winter Wife (Other traditions assert that Redaylda is the wife of Elmal). The curious similarity in name between The Dara Happan Reladivus (the Overseer of Nivorah, the mythical city in Saird), and Redaylda is intriguing. Perhaps Beren was descended from one of the Eight Celestial Sons of Yelm or some other Solar god.
The fact that Yelmalio has been the divine defender of Mirin’s Cross since the Second Age, but its tribal guardians are Redaylda and her husband Hyalor suggests a very strong link between Yelmalio and the horse cults, especially as riding was associated with Yelmalio in the Second Age and is still apparent in cult geases. As Yelorna is described as Yelmalio's sister or half-sister, and is also a riding deity, there's probably an association with Saird and other horse cults in Saird.
I wonder who Mirin was?
12 minutes ago, Tindalos said:I think it may be more that Yelorna and Ourania both fulfil the same mythic role as the Virginal Queen of Heaven. The Dara Happans just don't view the Queen of Heaven as a martial figure, unlike other cultures.
The Dara Happan culture is very patriarchal, and some aspects of Lunar culture seem to be a reaction to that. Earlier write-ups placed Yelornan regiments in the Dara Happan army, but I doubt these are canonical now as it doesn't fit with the more recently published material.
-
The map seems to have triggered a discussion touching on things I hadn't imagined. This is a good thing.
I generated the map because in my free time (which has been very limited in the last two or three months) I've been attempting to write a sourcebook for warfare primarily in central Genertela as a personal project. This has so far collected material by Greg Stafford, Sandy Petersen, Jeff Richards, Ian Cooper and Michael O'Brien as well as my own invention.
One section was an appendix on the Sun Dome Temples. Whilst a minority cult in all but Saird and its temple-towns, the cult has been involved in almost every conflict since it was founded, sometimes on both sides. Below is the section on the early history, which requires some rework due to material I've received recently.
Throughout the entire region of central Genertela, including the Lunar provinces, there are no more than fifteen major temples during the Hero Wars period.
In the First Age, the God of the Sun Dome Temple was called Hastatus, God of the Spear (sometimes equated with Avivorus) or Antirius, the Dara Happan God of Order.
Golden domes are a defining feature of the Sun Dome temples. The temple-fortress to Manimat and Antirius at Haranshold originally built in the First Age also boasts several gold domes. The city of Kesium is now best known for its golden-domed temple to Antirius, built by the Bright Eagle Lords of Rinliddi in the Dawn Age of Peloria.
The first temple complex in the style of the later Sun Dome Temples was built by Kestingatha of Kesium, one of the Bright Eagle Lords. His temple of Antirius, a golden dome set atop a square base, was completed sometime between 145 and 155.
Mahzanelm, an Emperor of the Khordavu Dynasty, conquered Rinliddi and Vanch around 345-350. The Dara Happans sought to ensure that the barbarian lands could be kept under their control. The Emperor commissioned the construction of a grand structure that would be both temple and a military enclave for his troops. This temple was in the form of a dome within a walled compound entered via a stepped walkway.
One of the settlements the Emperor destroyed during his southern campaign was Lolon, inhabited since the Dawn. This was the home of the Tunoraling hunter-gatherers who worshipped Heliacal the Sun and his wife Negalla the Green Woman.
After the First Theyalan War (366-368), more of the Dara Happan-style Sun Dome Temples were built – one was even built atop the ruins of Urar Baar (a troll trading place at the confluence of the Oslir and the Black Eel rivers). These were similar to the earlier temple built by Kestingatha, being set on a square base, which was now consecrated to Hastatus, the spear god. In all, five Sun Dome Temples served as Dara Happan military anchors to keep the rebellious Theyalans under the control of the High Council.
It was at the Battle of Day and Night in 379 that the constructed god Nysalor revealed Daysenerus - an aspect of Antirius who brings Antirius’ Justice to the barbarians - to be the deity of the Sun Dome Temples. Daysenerus’ first deed when invoked was to crush the army of Kyger Litor and his first new temple was built upon the site of that victory.
During the years that followed, new Sun Dome Temples dedicated to Daysenerus were built throughout the lands occupied by the Bright Empire.
The Daysenerus cult was given good lands confiscated from rebellious Heortlings after the Theyalan Wars. The military might of these enclaves supported the rule of the Bright Empire. However, their association with Nysalor proved to be their downfall. When Arkat raised the Heortlings in their final successful rebellion, vengeful Orlanthi and their troll allies destroyed every Sun Dome Temple they encountered and eradicated the name Daysenerus from Peloria.
According to Monrogh of Sartar, a dubious source, Sereventh in Sylila was the only temple to Daysenerus to survive the destruction of the Bright Empire. Other sources claim it was used by Ordanestyu in his Cold Light Fires Uprising and to revive the culture of Dara Happa after the fall of the Bright Empire.
-
1
-
-
11 hours ago, metcalph said:
I don't think Yelmalio is Antirius. Antirius is a more fiery god capable of giving out sunspears. I derive Antirius from Ent - Turos, (Right Turos, cf Entekos). In other words, Antirius is a manifestation of Turos as the upholder of Righteous Order.
There is an association with the Sun Dome Temples and Antirius (Avivath sees the first Sun Dome temple to Antirius in Kestinaddi) but that's a style of temple and one that does not proceed directly from Antirius. It was used for Daysenervus in Saird because Saird was a place of the Amalgram deities in which various religious influences were imported and synthesised Daysenervus' magics would be related to what Daysenervus did at the Sunstop.
Yelmalio and DaysenerusFrom: Greg StaffordDate: Tue 25 Jun 2002 - 19:23:07 EEST>From: Peter Metcalfe
>>Daysenerus is its name as a messenger God of Antirius. I should not cling to
>>my own self-styled view to Yelmalio as a Martyr / Scapegoat.
>
>He may have been revealed to the Dara Happans at the Battle of
>Night and Day but Yelmalio did exist before that time and did
>participate at the Hill of Gold.
Yes, he did.
Daysenerus is the First Age name of the god moderly known as Yelmalio. He may even be the same god as Antirius.http://glorantha.temppeli.org/digest/gd9/2002.06/0597.html
Of course this isn't definitive, but nothing in Glorantha is...
-
2 hours ago, David Scott said:
@metcalph & @M Helsdon, I'm interested in your discussion about who Yelorna is in the night sky. My source for Yelorna = Ourania is of course @Jeff.
Until your revelation I'd assumed that Yelorna was one of many 'Star Captains' who came to Earth to aid their worshippers in the Great Darkness. I'd puzzled over what her celestial star or planet might be but come to no conclusion.
Equating her with Ourania makes the genealogy of the Sky/Solar deities even more tangled, though it is possible that all the Gloranthan divine genealogies have been created by the worshippers or God Learners attempting to project a discernable pattern to the relationships of their gods.
Jeff is, of course, a God Learner... 8-)
-
11 minutes ago, metcalph said:
I thought she would have been better identified as the Hunter constellation making her an equivalent of Lestakus/Saggitus (Dara Happa Archer God), Hensarava (Eastern Isles) or Jumo (Kralorela).
If Yelmalio = Antirius, and Yelorna = Ourania there's a definite correspondence, as Ourania is the virginal etheric energy of heavenly power born from Dayzatar's thought, whilst her 'brother' is supposedly an emanation of Yelm of justice and victory.
Sun Dome Temples
in Glorantha
Posted
Yes, Yelm the Rider flies. This is why I queried the association with Yelm with horses.
I'd suggest it points to Elmal being a relatively minor cult in its host culture, whilst Yelm is a major cult in its host culture.
There are no Sun Dome Temples in Maniria.
Monrogh claims to have invented Yelmalio, or at least the scribe who wrote 'Making Gods' in King of Sartar claimed he did. This false claim is repeated in Jonstown Compendium #7517, which claims Monrogh's cult was exported to Tarsh, but the newest Sun Dome there, Ever-New-Glory was founded after the Lunar conquest of Saird, probably well before Monrogh had his visions.
I see no sign of any significant reform in Sun County. Yelmalio was not forgotten, north or east of Sartar. I suspect that Monrogh had exposure to something, probably hazia.
It should be noted that Vanntar has a very different governance to Sun County: in Vanntar the roles of religious and secular leader are combined; in Sun County they are not. Vanntar is supported by helots (suspiciously named for the Dara Happan god of slaves); Sun County adheres to the older model of farmer-citizen-soldiers. These very distinct differences point to a distinct divergence, not convergence.