M Helsdon

48 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Not to my knowledge yet

As Ourania/Urania is one of the nine Muses in Classical Mythology, specifically the Muse of Astronomy, she'd be the patron of the Star Gazers?

And Tethys bore to Ocean eddying rivers, Nilus, and Alpheus, and deep-swirling Eridanus, Strymon, and Meander, and the fair stream of Ister, and Phasis, and Rhesus, and the silver eddies of Achelous, Nessus, and Rhodius, Haliacmon, and Heptaporus, Granicus, and Aesepus, and holy Simois, and Peneus, and Hermus, and Caicus' fair stream, and great Sangarius, Ladon, Parthenius, Euenus, Ardescus, and divine Scamander. Also she brought forth a holy company of daughters who with the lord Apollo and the Rivers have youths in their keeping—to this charge Zeus appointed them—Peitho, and Admete, and Ianthe, and Electra, and Doris, and Prymno, and Urania divine in form, Hippo, Clymene, Rhodea, and Callirrhoe, Zeuxo and Clytie, and Idyia, and Pasithoe, Plexaura, and Galaxaura, and lovely Dione, Melobosis and Thoe and handsome Polydora, Cerceis lovely of form, and soft eyed Pluto, Perseis, Ianeira, Acaste, Xanthe, Petraea the fair, Menestho, and Europa, Metis, and Eurynome, and Telesto saffron-clad, Chryseis and Asia and charming Calypso, Eudora, and Tyche, Amphirho, and Ocyrrhoe, and Styx who is the chiefest of them all. These are the eldest daughters that sprang from Ocean and Tethys; but there are many besides. For there are three thousand neat-ankled daughters of Ocean who are dispersed far and wide, and in every place alike serve the earth and the deep waters, children who are glorious among goddesses. And as many other rivers are there, babbling as they flow, sons of Ocean, whom queenly Tethys bare, but their names it is hard for a mortal man to tell, but people know those by which they severally dwell.

Theogony - Hesiod

5 hours ago, David Scott said:

As Sun Daughter is Yelmalio

If the association by different cultures of a planet or star accurately indicates the deities associated with the planet or star are the same, then Yelmalio = Antirius, Kargzant, Sun Daughter, and even the Emperor Daruda.

Yelmalio = Antirius pretty much corresponds to the first Sun Dome Temples.

Yelmalio = Kargzant reinforces the cult association with horses.

Yelmalio = Sun Daughter. Given the various genders assigned to Yelm's Sons in GRoY by way of variation in names this isn't too surprising.

It may or may not be significant that the Guide does not equate Lightfore with Elmal... and further supports the view that Dara Happan mythology is a hopelessly distorted representation of the Solar Empire in the God Time.

8-)

3 hours ago, David Scott said:

And where is this?

Reputed to be somewhere in central Australia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lasseter's_Reef

I believe MOB has also located it in the Wastelands east of Sun County.

5 hours ago, David Scott said:

Yelorna is known as Ourania to the Praxian Sky Gazers Society. 

The same bright star marking the boundary of the Upper Sky the Theyalans name Silonia, the Goddess of Dance and the wife of Pole Star? Does Ourania have a Praxian name?

43 minutes ago, David Scott said:

I'm interested in your reference Martin.

The Book of Drastic Resolutions: Prax, which I know is now mostly non-canonical. There is, however, considerable detail therein about Yelorna.

43 minutes ago, David Scott said:

It might help you to know that Yelorna is Ourania...

There's considerable divergence in the mythology of the two, but then Solar mythology and genealogy is 'messy'.

Having tried to find how Tharkantus/Yelmalio/etc. fit into the Solar pantheon of Dara Happa, and noting the many contradictions in Gloranthan documents quoted in the Guide, GRoy etc. I've come to the conclusion that most in-world material is of doubtful veracity. Even the names of Yelm's eight sons vary. This might reflect just how damaged Solar cultures were when Yelm died, and just how few Solar worshippers survived. If a population falls below a critical number, there simply aren't sufficient people to retain and recall its knowledge, whether mythological or technical. I suspect Dara Happa fell well below this limit, and after Time began those who attempted to reconstruct their culture didn't have much to go by. Surviving artifacts, such as the Godswall are subject to debate; possibly many of the subsequent identification of deities there is suspect...

I find it interesting, that the Yelmalio and Yelorna cults, with their close ties, seem to reflect a different tradition, possibly Sairdite in origin, quite distinct from the low landers to the north.

It has a parallel in the Bronze Age collapse where in most of those cultures that survived, there's a significant disconnect between before and after.

16 hours ago, Joerg said:

Yelmalio/Tharkantus is a syncretic religion, including all manner of minor local solar deities, or recruiting their worshippers. Probably including Teshnan Somash, Elmal, Ralian Ehilm, elven Halamalao, Rinliddic Vrimak, Golden Bow, Sun Hawk, and Yamsur.

Yamsur is dead and gone. The deities blended into Yelmalio probably differ by region: I'd expect divergent evolution from the Sairdite cult in Ralios and Fronela, and the long isolation has probably caused drift in Prax. Deep down in the origin of the cult lie Hastatus, God of the Spear (sometimes equated with Avivorus) and Antirius, the Dara Happan God of Order, overlaid by subsequent accretion of Heliacal the Sun, Elmal, Halamalao, and others, including Pelorian/Pentan solar horse gods, Ralian solar horse goddesses etc.

Of course these may all be facets of the same deity, filtered by culture and other factors, much as the worship of Orlanth is affected by the proximity of different Holy Mountains.

5 hours ago, David Scott said:

Sky Gazer spirit-talkers point at Sun Daughter travelling the night sky following the same path as her father, they say that foreigners are sometimes heard to called her Lightfore. However, in the Second Age, mercenaries came to the Wastelands and called her a new name - Yelmalio.

I don't know if this is still canon, but at one time Yelorna was given the epithet Sun Daughter.

Yelorna is, according to older sources, Yelmalio's half-sister, her father being Yelm and her mother Ernalda. As Yelorna has an association with at least two Sun Domes, Ralios and Prax, her association with Yelmalio isn't just a local development (and dates back to the Bright Empire or EWF?)

Some of the older material had Yamsur, Yelmalio and Yelorna as siblings, but it's difficult to align them with the Dara Happan 'Sons of Yelm' (and the two sets of 'Sons of Yelm' given in the Guide in Gloranthan documents are... different). Surprisingly, the genealogies of the Storm Gods are fairly clear and apparently universal, but the genealogy of the Solar Gods isn't.

2 hours ago, Patrick said:

(let alone asking whether some of them starting sun worship before the coming of Arinsor!)

I don't pretend to any depth of knowledge regarding Praxian religion but...

The original Sun God of Prax was Splendid Yamsur, Son of the Sun, deceased in the Great Darkness (not to be confused with the hero Yamsur the Splendid, deceased in the Dragonkill hmm...) and there are Solar spirits such as Sun Hawk, one of the three Feathered Rivals.

I would not be surprised if, in Prax, there isn't a link between the Praxian Sun Hawk and the Yelmalion Vrimak, but @David Scott would know if this were so.

20 hours ago, MOB said:

Which raises the question, in whose reign did the current Light List come into being? It could be a relatively recent thing, part of the personality cult instituted by Solanthos after he overthrew the Varthanis dynasty.

Well, it must be updated whenever there's a new Count.

As it learned by all children, any other changes are going to immediately be detected by anyone old enough to have learned an earlier version. Despite the nature of the Sun County regime, it is unlikely that any rewriting of history is going to be easily accepted (the Temple doesn't seem to include a Ministry of Truth) so any blatant updating is going to cause at the very least disquiet and a questioning of authority. The governance of Sun County is authoritarian and fairly autocratic, but it isn't Stalinist.

7 minutes ago, Iskallor said:

Its my birthday in two weeks. Need more lego...

Congratulations. Just say no! to more lego: it's habit forming.

47 minutes ago, Iskallor said:

Made a Pavis square house...

There would probably be stairs up to a roof terrace and a wall surrounding the roof.

17 hours ago, metcalph said:

The terrain being talked about not only sustained the Teshnans, it also sustains Corflu (a recent settlement but still 1000 strong) and sustained Feroda (which is bigger than Corflu but not as big as New Pavis - Pavis: Gateway to Adventure p304) and Kitoy in the Dawn Age (Pavis and Big Rubble p17).  It is unsuited to nomads but not to sedentary farmers. Teshnos in particular has several inhabited swamps - such as the Tesho Marsh.

Corflu isn't much of a settlement (and reliant upon supply from upriver); Feroda was larger, but had supply from upriver or by sea. The Praxian marshes are particularly nasty. I can't see a Teshnan outpost being very much larger than Corflu.

17 hours ago, metcalph said:

The region is being shown as controlled, not merely explored (the territory searched and explored by Selenteen would be far larger even if it would be encounters like: Selenteen:  Have you seen or heard of a Red Sword? Nomads:  No, we have not.  What is this Lost Calm you speak of?).  On other maps, the territory is shown as being controlled or under the influence of the EWF and the Empire of Sheng Seleris.

It may have been claimed, but probably not controlled. I suspect the Teshnan patch is exaggerated to permit it to show up on the map.

17 hours ago, metcalph said:

If the Teshnan merchants are described as being seen in Boldhome then that's significant trade (note: significant trade does not mean major).   They are mentioned in the same sentence as the Tanisorans who have a known trade-route to Boldhome then and whose presence would not be controversial.  The fact that Teshnan merchants are making it across the Wastes in the absence of a central authority granting them safe passage indicates the route was doable.  

Unusual enough to be mentioned, but not denoting anything significant. I recall seeing an exquisite painting of a Mogul court - off to one side, far from the Emperor is a European in Elizabethan court dress - the ambassador from England. Worthy of mention, but not indicating any significant political or economic importance. At the time, Mogul India was rich and powerful; England was a distant and relatively poor European state.

17 hours ago, metcalph said:

Selenteen's Landing was around 1250 ST and gone by the arrival of the Selerans who arrive in the region as early as 1362 ST.  In that time (1313 ST to be precise), a blue-skinned demigod swims ashore at Kethaela and overthrows the Only Old One.  Now it just so happens that the Teshnans were originally settled by the Loper People, a blueskinned tribe from Fonrit.  Little to no evidence?  That's quite a claim.

The Lopers were from Pamaltela; they conquered Teshnos, briefly, but were not Teshnans; Teshnans aren't blue-skinned Veldang but Vithelans.

18 hours ago, MOB said:

But in the contemporary time-line, there are in fact two disputing counts who each have their own High Priests, one having incinerated his rival's predecessor with draconic fire magic. 

So I understand. When is your Sun County update likely to be published, please? It's very much an outline for a very dramatic campaign, but works as background 'history'.

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

Obviously the Priests who created and maintained the Light List are willing to undermine the Counts by pointing out the bad deeds of their successors.  You can't find any similar list about the more worthy High Priests, can you?

Given that Sun County is basically an authoritarian theocratic state, there's little evidence of serious political rivalry between High Priest and Count. There's no list of High Priests at all - the absence is probably more to do with page count than political machinations?

39 minutes ago, metcalph said:

 

In the map on the Guide to Glorantha, Selenteen's Landing is quite expansive in territory reaching as far as the Five Eyes temple and the Senitel on the shore.  It's significantly buigger than the Uz-controlled Rubble whereas Sun County is not even shown as an independent state.  Judging by area alone, it Sun County has 19,000 people then Selenteen's Landing should be over 30,000.  

If you are referring to the map on page 140, I suspect the area on the map is the area he searched and explored, not the area of his colony. Most of the terrain is inhospitable and unsuitable for agriculture. In the Third Age it would not sustain a large population. The lower regions of the Zola Fel are not pleasant.

39 minutes ago, metcalph said:

As for how it was settled, coastal sea travel remains a possibility (hell even Sheng Seleris was brave enough to send a fleet which almost made it to Vormain).  Given that Teshnos was trading with Sartar in Saronil's time (King of Sartar p190 has Teshnan merchants in Boldhome in 1535 ST - a good half century before the Opening), I wouldn't be so dismissive about there being no trade or travel between Teshnos and the west before the Closing.

The presence of a few merchants does not denote significant trade or widespread travel - the presence of Marco Polo and a few monks in China did not indicate major trade between China and Europe. There's little to no evidence of cultural exchange between Teshnos and Prax or even the Holy Country during the Closing.

3 minutes ago, MOB said:

So, by virtue of the "criterion of embarrassment" (which Christian apologists use to content that the Bible must be true, e.g. the weird story of Jesus angrily cursing the fig tree), everything in the Light List is the unvarnished truth. 

In some of the Gnostic gospels you'll find far worse than that as I'm certain you know...

The Light List is written as a Gloranthan document, so its veracity has to be taken as potentially suspect.

However, little or nothing in the 'objective' background text in either the Pavis boxed set or your Sun County seems to contradict it. I note, for example, that in the most recent Wyrms Footnotes one article using a Gloranthan document from the Jonstown Compedium declares that the Yelmalio cult was exported from Vanntar, whilst the very next article cites northern Sun Dome Temples active and predating Monrogh.

1 hour ago, MOB said:

The "Secret History of Sun County" contends the Teshnan contact happened at the very tail end of the Solitude of Testing, but it is something the current regime wants to forget. Hence the ban on Light Sons wearing "women's" clothing, etc. 

An amusing conceit, but obviously a slanderous and scandalous account spread by a Darkness worshipper!

4 hours ago, metcalph said:

As for there being no sign of any significant Teshnan contact, that falls in the same category as the curious incident of the dog in the night time.  It's just down the river!

Well, no. The Closing pretty much prevented any communication by sea (945?-1580) between the Zola Fel and Teshnos and in his expedition in 1250 Selenteen seems to have travelled across the Wastelands. Given hostile Animal Nomads and the hazards of the Feethos River, significant travel and trade between Teshnos and Prax and points westward seems unlikely, except by sea and until Dormal, there was no sea travel. Any Teshnan outpost in Prax was isolated, and if it only lasted forty or fifty years at most, it seems more likely it would have been influenced by the larger Sun County population to the north than the other way around.

4 hours ago, metcalph said:

My guess is that the Solitude of Testing is an artefact caused by the deliberate forgetting of large periods of Sun Dome history considering that it's embarrassing to the current priesthood (betrayal of fellow light worshippers, Teshnan debauchery and a nightmarish occupation).  Only in the lists of the High Priests would one find hints at the real story.

Yet little Sun County history seems forgotten, given the list of Counts, many of whom were nomads you'd expect to be written out of history. Much of the history, with its catalogue of bad Counts who seized power, murdered the incumbent, including brothers, etc. is highly embarrassing to a cult with its foundations of truth and honour, but it hasn't been expunged.

Debauchery seems improbable; Sun County seems to tend towards the Dara Happan Yelmian gender culture than anything else - and it has its own Ulerian priesthood. The Ulerians of Sun County and Pavis seem to be a distinctly local phenomenon, given that the Ulerian cult is fairly rare in southern central Genertela. I suspect the Uleria cult survived through the Isolation in Sun County. So if they survived, then a tradition of Teshnan dancing 'celestial maidens' would have as well.

I must admit to being highly doubtful of anything sourced from Monrogh. He may have founded (or re-founded) the Sun Dome Temple in Dragon Pass, but the temples in Prax and Saird had been active for centuries before he was born, and don't seem to have forgotten which god they worshipped. Perhaps he indulged too much in hazia?

4 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Selenteen of Alampish was a Teshnite hero who led an expedition into the Wastelands in 1250, seeking the Red Sword. Selenteen failed to find the sword, but established a colony at the mouth of the Zola Fel that lasted several generations before disappearing, the likely victim of the Animal Nomads of the Wastes. Guide, page 429. 

Ah, Selenteen. Thank you.

There's no sign of any significant Teshnan contact with Sun County, given that the period is known there as the Solitude of Testing.

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

Then came Seleteen and the Sun Domers switched allegiances from the Pure Horse Tribe to the Teshnans.  Bereft of their walking allies, the Pure Horse Tribe gets wiped out.  Some Sun Dome prohibitions could conceivably be traced to a backlash on Teshnan influences - the wearing of red or disguising oneself as a women.

The Teshnan influence lasts until the arrival of the Seleran Empire.  

I am unable of any reference to a Seleteen or any Teshnan influence in Sun County. I assume that Seleran Empire is a non-canonical name for the empire of Sheng Seleris?

6 hours ago, David Scott said:

There are about 14700 Yelmalio worshippers amongst the Praxian tribes. The population of Sun County is only 20,000, given that half are children, the remainder is half men. That gives a maximum of 5000 Yelmalio initiates. The nomads outnumber them about 2:1. The structure of Yelmalio is different amongst the tribes - they have only Light Khans, no priests. So the Yemalio temples are their major worship temples. Yes they are welcome, and yes there are ancient pacts in place that prevent them overrunning the land. Look when the Praxian lords of Sun County ended for when these pacts came into place.

Very interesting. Glancing at the list of Counts, Golungan (1343-1352) seems to be the first nomad count, though it is hard to determine which was the last nomad count - possibly Poskuturri (1537-1556). However, monikers such as Literate or Peasant suggest that nomad rule was not constant.

2 hours ago, g33k said:

I'm going to suggest that if MULTIPLE subject-matter-experts all have the same strong-but-vague recollection, there is probably an actual basis in fact...  Let me poke around in your memories, a bit:

I'm not an expert, have never been to a RuneQuest Convention, and until a few years ago my Glorantha library was small...

So far, worked through Dragon Pass (boardgame), Cults of Prax, Cults of Terror, Cult Compendium, Plunder, Apple Lane, Snake Pipe Hollow, RuneQuest Companion, RuneMasters, Wyrms Footnotes11, 12, 13, 14, Worms Footprints, Borderlands, Pavis, Big Rubble, Griffin Mountain, King of Sartar, Dorastor, Foes. A few more to go through. May have been in a magazine? A Different Worlds?

1 minute ago, jajagappa said:

And they are nowhere near as bad as the thieving Vanchites!

I'd put it down to what happens were slightly similar (and sometimes divergent) religions collide. Saird seems to be Glorantha's ancient Syria.

3 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Btw, I've sent you some material to the email address of yours that I have.

Received but not read. Thank you. I'll send you my Sun Dome history later today.

2 hours ago, jajagappa said:

There's a fair bit of material on Saird, Vanch, and Imther - some in development for an HQG book on the region, some published in the fanzines (NLG, TotRM, Enclosure, and Codex particularly), some prepared for publication but never released (mostly Imther), some worked on with Greg and Jeff (Verenmars Saga, Kings of Saird), and a lot of other material on Vanch, Imther, and Sylila.  But there's also a lot that's not done and plenty to work on.

I've seen (most of) TOTRM and Codex, but not the others.

2 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Well maybe, maybe not.  Heliacal was certainly one of the Many Suns and his Seat of Judgment was at Lolon.  But the Seat of Judgment was broken and lost, most likely carted off by the DH.  He is likely equated now with Yelmalio.  But if you use his myths instead of Yelmalio's you probably won't get the same result.

In unpublished material, I've seen that he shares the Hill of Gold story, but perhaps it isn't the story but a story. We've had this conversation on the Google list, but reading the Guide, Yelmalio seems to have supplanted Heliacal in New Lolon to the extent of having the same wife there. I fear that Sairdite myths are thoroughly corrupt in that they've taken local and foreign sources over centuries to create a local syncretic form...

2 hours ago, metcalph said:

It appears in RQ2 (p124 of the classic PDF).  

On the map, yes, but I have a (false?) memory of an explanation of why it was the wrong river. I'm coming to the conclusion my memory is faulty. 8-(

12 hours ago, Kim said:

We're going to pick out one publication and count pages? Is that what this discussion is gonna be about?

No, but it demonstrates that the available coverage of Glorantha is not limited to Dragon Pass.

12 hours ago, Kim said:

The idea that Dragon's Pass is a "natural" focus for history that we ought give a fart about, is a huge f__king s__t in the face of actual historians on one hand, and of actual history on the other. There is no sane reason D.P. is a "crossroad" except that it's been designated as one by writers. And WTF do you mean by saying "the Middle East" was/is a "crossroads"? Where exactly are you talking about? And what places do you leave out to create that "place"?

Dragon Pass is in the center of the continent, at a break in otherwise impassable mountains, and links two or three distinct cultural regions, perhaps four or five, if you count Esrolia as distinct from other Orlanthi and the Grazers. Even if you ignore the non-human denizens, some of whom are large enough to be mistaken as geographic features, it is where North Theyalan and Solar (and their Lunar successors) cultures are going to collide with South Theyalans. Add in nearby Horse People and Animal Nomads who have raided throughout history from one side to the other, and you have an enormous cultural, religious, mythological and military melting pot.

A bit like the Middle East, which throughout history has been where distinct cultures have impacted each other (Anatolians, Mesopotamians, Egyptians, Phoenicians; Greeks, Persians, Egyptians; Romans, Parthians; Moslems, Christians etc.) up to the present day. Such interactions generate busy, often appalling, history, but also major cultural interactions which spread over a much wider area. It's no surprise that three of the world's major religions (and many lesser ones) have their origins there.

12 hours ago, Kim said:

I've been reading, and admiring, and using your stuff for years, so please, even in an imaginary universe, please don't go down the Thomas Friedman route of historiography.

I suspect you are mistaking me for someone else.

Had to look up Thomas Friedman; so far as I can determine he writes about modern history and politics, not ancient history.