Shiningbrow

I'm confused. What culture are you referring to here? Because I see Orlanthi culture as quite dogmatic, priest-ridden (although perhaps not as much as IRL, but then we don't have Rune Lords either... or say, in Esrolia), obsessed with the life to come, and most definitely in charge of morality (albeit, not ours), and do see the gods as figures to emulate... (in some ways, to some extents...). While some players and GMs might approach RQ like that, that's not actually how the gods and people in Glorantha have been portrayed. Very specifically to your quote, kinslaying is evil (aka, chaotic). Now, this I sort of agree with... certainly with your other statement about PC's religions becoming more PC to fit 'modern' morals and standards. Runequest has become more woke... and that disappoints me. As mentioned before, the gods are real. Your character has seen this reality, multiple times. Their parents have, their grandparents have, all your friends, kin, kith, and all those around you have. The only time you meet up with someone who hasn't is usually when you're about to stab them in the face (well, abdomen... left leg??). And so, since you know they're real, you won't ever question any morality that they do or don't show. So, for the most part, yes - power is what gives you a sense of morality. We players get to read through various source books and decide on what we want to play, what cults to be a part of, what background we want. Characters don't. And just as the vast majority of humanity on Earth never seriously consider the beliefs they have been brought up with (over the last few tens of thousands of years), neither will the PCs and NPCs. Regardless of how (in)sane that religion may be. Social pressure, backed up with the literal force of the gods.

Sorry, I should have said "I don't see anything so contradictory that one couldn't do both". I'm aware of the differences in the systems and the implications that may entail. As you said, I figure some can find that middle ground. I'm sure that there would be Mistress Race Trolls that would have the amount of time necessary to achieve the full potential of both! And, probably others as well... but then, what's your definition of "full potential" for either of them?? Because, if I were to answer that, then very very few on the lozenge would ever achieve that "full potential" (ok, Brithini could). I would consider "full" to be able to access all Techniques (1, but that makes most spells expensive - however, so what??) and all Runes (minimum 12 - excluding Chaos). This means a minimum INT of 25. Do you have a different definition for "full potential"? (I'd especially like to read it for Shamans...).

@hipsterinspace You seem to be agreeing with me on the first couple of points, although I'd suggest that the attitude towards shamansim is different on Glorantha than on Earth. I still don't see any contradictions between shamanism and sorcery, and the attitudes you are referring to with the relationships seem to solely revolve around those with spirits (greater or lesser). I don't see a problem with a shaman learning sorcery to, say, Enhance their characteristics (e.g., POW or CHA), or for many of the other mundane effects. Even Lunar sorcery, which manipulates Spirit Magic (although, we're not yet sure if it's actual spirit magic, or merely an imitation of it). I don't know.... are you saying that deeply religious people on Earth (particularly shamans, given our topic) - or others with deep, personal, emotional connections, can't also have the mindset of intense mentalism? Don 't get me wrong... I'm not saying that it would be easy, and definitely not common. Just that it's possible, and some people have done it. (and PCs can do it). Fair point. But I do need to point out again - it's not merely Mistress Race Trolls who can do this... I'm not sure that MRTs would be taught sorcery first... granted, it would make sense doing this because of the years of intense mental exercises, but I can see it going the other way around. Also remember, MRTs have 2D6+12 INT, so yes, sorcery should come easily to them.. (the boosted POW & CHA help too).

Well, no, I don't approach things from that point of view. However, I would certainly think that once someone has become a shaman, then they would be in their 20s or so, and thus haven't had the years of patient, methodical mental exercises necessary for sorcery. I wouldn't say it's "beyond their comprehension", but it's not likely to be something that they'd ever head towards (largely out of need or desire - let alone out of tribal/clan obligations). Even though Uz can combine the training, I strongly suspect that the sorcery still comes first - just because of those early years of mental exercises.

I disagree with your first statement. Because of its very nature, it isn't just another scenario - it's a complete change of normalcy, and so the RQ rules don't apply, Without some form of rules, there would be disagreements between players and GMs. Rules make it easier for both sides to know what to expect, and what can be done, and what sort of rewards one can expect.

Got a decent reference for that? A) while I get the second part,, and I can understand the first part - although I'll question this idea of "souls are big enough" (what's that even supposed to mean in general, and then what's that supposed to mean specifically and mechanically) - that still doesn't help considering Dark Trolls are also able to "contain" (huh??) all 3 as well!

I was actually pretty close to doing a post along the lines of "Well, if you haven't figured it out after all these years, perhaps it's time to pass the ball onto someone else who can...". (then I read a post that said those rules might actually see the light of day... soonish.... as a playtest.....)

Then perhaps you should go back and read what we actually wrote...???? Ummm... while I'll buy it, I can't say it's something that I particularly "wanted" - not without that one thing that would really make it different to what has gone before - Heroquests. I can understand if you don't have any (or much) of the older stuff, which will be reproduced in the upcoming books. But for me (and, quite clearly, others) those HQs would be something that really makes them worth buying and investing in. And yes, I'd happily contentedly wait another year if that would be the case. I wish I wouldn't have had to, and this mess was sorted out already...

I think it stinks... 😁😁😁

Rhetorical, but I'll answer that anyway... The Horned Man? Darkness spirits?? (especially the bigger nastier ones) KL herself? I don't think that Mistress Race Trolls are at the top when it comes to this sort of thing...

I would generally agree with that statement - however I wouldn't say it's a categorical requirement. Besides, I think you may be thinking of Malkioni sorcery with the ... Certainly, the mental gymnastics required by sorcery might suggest it, but I don't think the attitude towards spirits is always going to be one of abuse, as a necessity.

I'm not seeing your point, in either your post of that of the WoD entry. I agree that it would be different - but I don't see it being contradictory. Sure, most never will, but it's obviously possible, because this is something that trolls do! The only reason I can see that sorcerers wouldn't get into shamanism is that it takes a lot of time and effort (and POW) away from sorcery. (they're also arrogant with regards to the spirits and the spirit world!) And one big reason I can see shamans not getting into sorcery is, again, the time, effort, POW, and the fact that being a good shaman usually means having lots of spirit magic spells on hand - and that would take up the Free INT for sorcery. Also, most shamans (ie, the average) won't have the necessary INT to become a shaman, won't be brought up in the right environment, and won't be able to read to a useful enough level. Other than that... I don't see a problem here.

I don't see this to be the case - not inherently. I think it's the cults on the lozenge that have made that rule, certainly not the gods nor anything within a being's make-up that precludes such combinations. Ok, some spirits may not take it so well - but if trolls are able to have sorcery and be shamans, then there doesn't seem to be an issue with at least some of them. Certainly, the gods aren't going to care (unless they specifically hate Lhankor Mky, or maybe Mostal...*) Also, 'sorcery' appears to be a very wide-ranging term that's not so easy to identify. Given that, I think it makes it harder to interpret the over-aching ban on all sorcery can't be shamans (or vice-versa - although I don't think there's a problem on the sorcery side). And I've asked this question before (a year or 2 ago), without much conclusive answers - what does it actually mean to be a shaman? Personally, I think it means having a fetch, and the ability to discorporate without external help. Neither of those precludes knowledge of sorcery. So, the only roadblock seems to be either a cult (and specifically a cult in a particular region), or perhaps some variant of a Horned Man and/or Bad Man... do trolls go to a different entity called the Horned Man? Or is it the same entity in a different form? If it's a different entity, couldn't some non-troll contact them directly anyway? (of course, this assumes there's only one way to gain self-discorporation and a fetch). And... I don't think it's been categorically shown that the ability to discorporate is a power conferred from someone/thing on the other side, rather than a skill that can be taught by someone on this side. (And, I can't see why it couldn't be a HQ power, nor something that a sorcerer couldn't come up with). And, if you're illuminated.... Getting the third magic would be relatively easy - trolls do it almost on a daily basis... (*precluding anything western, because that appears to have come later, and there's not much in the way of cross-overs for it to matter).

Thank you @Wheel Shield 🤝

Thank you Rodney. Yes, I agree that it makes sense. Possibly even good. And I certainly don't begrudge the want/need for that. What I am begrudging is the need to focus pretty much all of that attention on bringing them in, instead of diverting some of that attention to the one thing that has been asked for for all these years. I was thinking of starting up a poll... Would you have been willing to let the publication of RQG be delayed by 6/12 months to allow for the inclusion of HQ rules? A) 12 months, not a problem! HQ rules are essential to RQ (and a 12 month wait is nothing on top of 40 years) B) 6 months would have been ok. I really want them, but they aren't so necessary that I need them now. C) No, it should have been put out as early as possible, and HQ doesn't make enough difference to my games. D) No, I don't care about HQ rules anyway Obviously, I'm in the A group. I'd like people to think what our new shiny books would be like if there were those rules in place... RQG would have sample heroquests that we could all work off now. The JC would have a whole stack more of them, and I bet there would be some very specific products that focus purely on those (eg, an Ernalda's compilation of quests). The official adventure publications would probably have had them ("Ashborn Thriceborn went on the XYZ Heroquest, described on p.xx of the RQG, to get his resurrection powers" - or something similar). The various cults books would be much more enjoyable for the old-timers. I'm not saying it needed to be in the RQG itself, but I do think they should have been out already - if the focus and attention was put on it rather than stuff for the newbies to RQ. (and more people allowed into the sacred inner circle - as per my immediately previous post to Joerg). Related: That's actually not what I'm suggesting or miffed about. As I just wrote above (here, and in other posts) it's about what's gone into those publications, not so much the number.

Please don't get me wrong Joerg. I'm not "refusing to acknowledge." I'm merely focussing my argument. This thread is about Chaosium the company and its marketing (etc.) of official publications. So, I don't see the JC as very relevant to this discussion. (although I can certainly see how it connects) If I did bring that in, I would say that the JC is a fantastic idea, and there is some awesome stuff on there - stuff that my money has gone into, and will continue to do so (even though I don't get to play! I mean, what does that say that someone who can't even play the damn game is still willing to throw lots of money into it??) However, one thing that I would be critical of (which I've said before, and hinted at earlier in this thread) is why some of that content can't become canon in Chaosium's eyes? Alternatively (or simultaneously), contact those awesome authors, and get them to produce official (and hence, canonical) works (especially since the only thing that is often lacking in the JC items is the production value. The content itself is great!). It feels like only one person's view of Glorantha/Runequest is allowed - and that one person must be the master of all that is canon. If the HQ rules are so difficult that only a handful of people had problems coming with the right feel across many decades, then perhaps it's time that the door be flung open, and to ask for suggestions?? Go to the grognards and ask them "hey, what do you want in Heroquesting? How do you think it should work?" (just in case someone wants to try to suggest it - hell no, I am not thinking of myself! I am thinking of the people who have already written and published) BTW - thank you for a good, fairly objective reply to my post. I do appreciate the feedback on that!

wow! I really hope you pay actual lawyers at Chaosium... This was in the post only a mere 5 above the one you took my quote from! Now, before I get in to detail, I do feel I need to stress something here... while this time it's me who is doing all of this whinging and complaining, it *needs* to be noted that I am not, and have not been over the last few years that this topic keeps arising, the only one expressing these thoughts! (I'm not going to go over the last 5 years of threads to find them, but those who are regulars here will know what I'm talking about). So, dismissing my thoughts/opinions/arguments is also doing the same to those other fans (which, as I posted above is the 'disdain' I was talking about. So, now let's look at this with a less than emotional eye... How much of the following books are 100%, brand-spanking, never before seen material - and not merely tweaks from RQ2/3??? As in, something a fan from 10-30 years ago would not have seen, and therefore is paying for when they purchase those books.... (and not just the pretty pictures or glossy paper). Glorantha Sourcebook... nice! I like it, although rarely use it. I can't put a percentage for what's actually new... However, I am aware that there are chunks which are quite old clearly old ... 40 years old... Runequest (2018) - As many threads have pointed out for the C&P, 70-80% of this is RQ2, with a tweak to RQ3's sorcery. What's new? Family background, the emphasis and use of Runes, Passions, Augments, some shamanism, I think some bits in 'Between Adventures'... Bestiary (2018) - again, 70-80% we've already seen before! Honestly, I think the only thing that's sort of 'new' is the chapter on spirits, and that's still largely a tweaking of the old rules! So, I think I should change that percentage up to 90%. GM Adventures Pack (2018), Smoking Ruins (2019), Pegasus Plateau (2020) - Ok, now we're getting somewhere with something relatively new - adventures! Something fans will want, and have asked for! (still some old stuff was tweaked...) Thank you!! (yes, sincerely too!) Red Book of Magic (2020) - RQ2, and two-thirds of RQ3's Book of Magic... with pretty pictures. Frankly, I rarely look at this book because I already know what most of those spells do - bar the tweaking! Starter Set (2021) - Firstly, it's a cut-down RQG. Book 1, Book 2 and the references sheets have all been seen before. Thank you for the Books 3 & 4. Half of the Pre-gens were in RQG... Weapons and Equipment (2022) - Once again, is actually new for the fan of 10-40 years ago here, but also a large chunk we saw decades ago. Prosopaedia (2023) - I'm not sure how much of that will be new/different to Cults Compendium... but I'm expecting not a lot (or found in other books, like Cults of Terror, Cults of Prax, etc) Lightbringers (2023) - I'll be surprised if there's much more than 25% I haven't already seen or read. Earth Goddesses (2023) - as above... Mythology (2023) - this I can't really comment on.... So, that's a quick breakdown on the viewpoint a number of longer-time fans have (or would) express over the last 5 years on this forum - that other people have started or asked about. The big question now is (in relation to my claim) - what have long-time RQ fans actually been asking for??? I'm sure some have asked for what you posted above in that list. However, if there's ONE thing that keeps getting called for more than anything else, it's been the HQ rules. What's been done for those officially? Well, I'll keep saying this, as I've said it before... in only the first couple of years that Mongoose had the rights, they published two books with HQ rules, including a large section devoted to sample heroquests for a large number of cults. Those rules covered about 50 pages in total (IIRC). My case is - Chaosium have not put the interests and wishes of the RQ fans above that of getting new fans (money). It is not that they haven't put out new material, nor that I don't like the products that have (or will) come out. Nor that I dislike it, or won't buy it. It's simply that the priority is not on prioritising the loyal fans of 10-40 years. I believe I have provided sufficient evidence to prove my point. The one thing that fans have consistently asked for is the one thing that hasn't been published in the last 5 years (and won't be *soon*). And I don't know if that's ever going to change... And, I need to point out that when RQ first came out, some of us here were quite young. Others, however, were not. And I think it would be a shame for those long-time fans to not see and play those HQ rules - the thing they've been wanting most of all - before they die. I'm fairly certain I won't see them.... (and, of course, a HUGE thank you to Mongoose, and especially Simon Phipp @soltakss for his awesome book(s - not just Secrets, but also the others you've put out... I'll be throwing some money your way soon, I think, on the Holiday series)

Yay... finally!!! (again) Finally - we have some combat! (after, once again, some wonderful ideas about throwing the little girl out the window, or using her as a meat shield... these Y8 girl students are nasty!!! While the gang were all in the ex-temple, the scorpionmen came at them from the front door and from the underground temple (currently only 3, but there are more to come :D) However, virtually everyone made their scan rolls, so saw them coming in time to react... Sorala, closest to one of them, took a swing (and a miss). So did the Scorpionman... until the tail came down... and like all good warriors, took an arrow... I mean, stinger... to the (right) knee - and down she went like a sack of not suffering from poisoned potatoes! (nice CON roll!) Makarios the CA healer tries to come to the rescue with a Sleep spell! Yah, he succeeds.... but somehow the scorp actually resists! Vasana tries to take one on by herself - but lots of swinging an missing all around. Vishi decides to intervene, using his DaggerAxe... and the GM is heartbroken to see the 02 come up... failed parry.... hit in the 12 (Chest).... not much point in rolling - one scorpionman insta-killed... grrrrrrr. (Cousin Monkey is still a coward, and hides in the corner with the little girl... both screaming loudly). Yanioth tries her luck... again, lots of swinging and missing! (I didn't know Yanioth was married!) Now we're moving along!!! Oh, and I now have 2 players with their own dice...errr, I mean lethal weapons! Yep, they've both bought the heavy metal dice 🤘... the stuff that puts dents in floors and tables! (and those D4s are like caltrops!!! Nasty and sharp...)

Oh yes, I'm aware. And yes, they bought that baggage. And along with it was the knowledge of what happened with those editions, and what fans were wanting... dare I say, 'needing'? "I can't put them on trial for 33 years of other people's decisions." No, I can't either. But I can put them on trial for the last 7. And I have and am.

@soltakss I'm not going to really rebut you (too much), but I will comment. After all, you are entitled to your opinion a much as I am (and everyone else). Some of the responses to posts made on this forum over the years makes me beg to differ! But, that's not face to face at conventions... I think it's less about the rules, and more about the publisher... but we already know about that. While it's not my main point, I do need to keep repeating myself that Mongoose that the license for only a very short while, and put out TWO books with HQ rules in them! Including many pages of sample HQs for a number of cults. I totally, completely disagree with this point!!! Any long-term fan of RQ has known that this has been wanted for decades. The question should be - how much do new players to RQ want them? (which therefore relates to my other section on who Chaosium are focussing on. And therein lies the problem... having only ONE writer! RBoM was already largely written decades ago (there aren't that many new spells - although converting to RQG would take time, plus additional). the GaGoG (especially the main cults coming in the first few books*) were basically written decades ago) and so I'm flummoxed as to why ONLY ONE person is allowed to work on them, to the exclusion of all else and all others. (Let's revisit after it's released. Yes, I'll buy it too... but I'm not expecting a whole lot of new stuff!) And that's where I'll leave it. I know you'll probably disagree with me on this (as will a good many others). But, I also expect there are a few out there who will like this post... The question then becomes - does this, and the feeling that at least some fans have, make a dent in the Chaosium consciousness? Not necessarily to agree, but to understand.

Except, gods don't give spirit magic... spirits do. Hence why it's called "spirit" magic... So, at the moment, your fire god that drives the sun across the sky, currently gives zero fire magic himself. (Unless you're changing point 1) You're forgetting the myth of how Elmal joined the Storm Tribe (unless it's been retconned). When Elmal first came to the Storm Tribe, all the other gods laughed at him because he was riding a horse - all except Redalda, who loved the horse. And it was this reason that those two got together (ie, they bonded over horses... as people do). Passing this bit of magic off onto the ones who scorned him and his horse doesn't fit the myths... Besides, Elmal was focussed on both the guarding and the horsing - (and other things, but aren't really mentioned)... and the guarding only came about when Orlanth left the stead to go fight Chaos and Elmal got left behind. So, while it's your cult and your write-up, I do think your conflating the god, who he is and what he did, with the cult and what you want them to do. You could create an Eurmal Rex cult who is loved and adored by all, that has all powers from all elements ... but it wouldn't be supported by the myths that we have been given.

I disagree. Going off to war for weeks on end makes sense to march, not ride (except for the rich people who can afford horses). Most of our history is about that. In fact, the 'knights on horseback' is only a very small percentage of the whole army, and only a fairly recent thing in human lust for blood. Another issue with doing it all on horseback - the raid! Sure, it can work in some situations, but dragging along your ill-gotten gains is also a typical thing IRL. Taking all those warriors away means there's very few left at home to do all the patrolling, and so the solo mounted patrol makes a lot more sense. Except, you need those defenders there now - not in an hour. The crops can wait a few days, and the oathbreaker isn't going to get too far away... (sure, the healer is important, but you only need a Heal 1 to let them wait for the full-time healer to arrive). If you need that healer there now, then the Elmali can double them up.

Apologies for coming in so late.... Firstly, I am an Elmali supporter, and have complete contempt for those Yelmalio twats! (They can stick their pikes where their sun is hiding! :p) Secondly... Why have you chosen to go with Bow instead of Javelin for them? Or perhaps a Sling? (the bow reeks of Yelm, while the javelin associates itself nicely with Vinga. Sling is just an Orlanthi weapon in general - very easy to find ammunition and wield in a barbarian belt). Secondly, although Elmal is a horse god, I never got the impression from all the Elmal stuff I've read that he's a horse combatant. So, I see him as riding to a battle, and then getting off. This is sort of born out with his Guard the Stead motif of not defending on horseback. IMG, I don't push Elmal's fire side, because it's not pushed strongly in the myths, other than he came from the fire tribe. And so, for me, Ignite wouldn't automatically be taught to all Initiates (although, would be available somewhere). Similarly, the Fireblade and FireArrow aren't specifically his either (Ok, we might argue about the first). OTOH, Heal is a must! As is Farsee for someone who rides out to patrol the reaches. Given the role of protector, Protection seems quite logical as well (yes, it's incompatible with Shimmer, but I'm not convinced by the Shimmer addition). If they're skirmishers, then Speedart becomes almost necessary too. Why did you give Lantern instead of Light?? For me, Light would come before the Lantern, in order of what would be learned/makes more sense in the myth-cycles - the light in the darkness - not the lighthouse or pointing the way. I wouldn't give Lightning from Orlanth... Wind Words makes much more sense (after all, how else to you tell the fyrd to prepare for an impending attack from the Chaos and Evil in the world?) I get why you want TrueSpear... but I feel it's more offensive than defensive. Given Elmal's ability to hold off Chaos (very mythical), perhaps a Face Chaos or Impede Chaos? Or, replace True Spear with FireSpear... I think it keeps the mythology a bit better. Summon & Control (small) Fire Elemental also makes sense for me - in keeping with the fire powers still retained. And as much as you don't want to create any new Rune spells, how about Bless Foaling - a horse-only version of Bless Pregnancy (I can so see Elmalis willing to boost a prized steed)?? Anyway, just my version...

I'm not. I've seen Chaosium do/say things that are not in the loyal fans' best interests. I would even go so far as to call it disdain. (this is one reason why the HQ rules are still at the 40+ years of waiting - whilst also completely ignoring the Mongoose versions. For some, the long-term fans' real needs were completely ignored for the last X years). Their focus has been on trying to get new (more) fans (well, their money!), rather than appealing to those of us who have hung on for those decades. And, for this reason, while RQ will always be my favourite TTRPG, I won't call Chaosium my favourite publisher.

This is one reason I don't like the SR system, but prefer Combat Actions. Using CAs, Harrek & Jar-Eel can take out multiple enemies at a time - 6+ per MR. That's heroic! (ETA - yes, I realise I'm crossing forums here, but... the reason they can only kill 1-2 at a time is merely range and hands.... if you've only got 2 hands, then you're pretty much limited to 2 kills at a time - one by each hand!)