Shiningbrow

Oh, very very true! I was thinking in defence of the stead, as part of a fyrd. However, no reason why one couldn't go along as part of a 'sanctioned' raid (although, without better weapons, less likely unless someone decided either numbers were more important, or the stickpicker knew something they didn't). You've made me consider something else... killing and looting a bandit! (not that it's likely to help much :p)

Oh, I agree (largely). But it's one step up from mere stickpicker or dregs of society. It gets the individual noticed, and that in itself can be enough. If a stickpicker is willing to risk their life, and shows some ability to help, the clan, then they could be moved onto a farm to then be part of a tenant's crew (for example).

Just on that - remember that for most GMs and Players, if a stickpicker happens to kill someone, then they may well get the gear as a reward, instantly elevating them a bit. And since a pointed stick can still kill (or maim sufficiently to take captive for a ransom), I can see this happening with reasonable regularity. And, facing down a well-armed and armoured foe with just a pitchfork takes some nerve, so a reputation is built up, and social mobility should ensue.

What about the numeric value of variable spells? How do they deal with that? (or, is it not necessary?) Also, what I would consider a fairly obvious question - how would any Gloranthan know they need to use, say, a Heal 3 rather than just a Heal 2 (assuming they had higher than Heal 2)?

This!! Which is pretty much what I was trying to get at - players have this idea, but in-world, isn't that likely. However, we can all make up a backstory that could justify anything, really... want a half-dragonewt, half-mistress race troll - no problem! It was part of the dragonewts 'experience' in order to gain karma, and the troll needed to forge an alliance for some reason. Nooooo.... but one normally doesn't enter into Babeester Gor, the Avenger, lightly. Without the trauma, the only way I can reasonably make sense of it (which probably shows my lack of imagination) would be if they were born into the cult. But then, you'll lose Yinkin... (well, maybe not! Perhaps she got sick and tired of city life, and went out on her own into the forests and hills for a while). Well, that's the point. If your character is 'dipping' into a cult just for the spells, then it's basically the same as a 1-3 level dip in D&D - especially if the cults aren't all that compatible (e.g., Babeester Gor & Odayla). There should be a *strong* religious reason for joining a cult to Initiate level (Lay Membership would be normal). After all, even though both Orlanth and Ernalda are hugely important in Sartar, most people only actually initiate into one of those, and remain at Lay level for the other. (remember that other than the Rune Spells, associated cults can get skills and spirit magic cheaper, and friendly cults would just have easy access to them. So, your BG could still get training in either - for a reasonable price. So that begs the question - other than getting one's hands on Identify Scent, what's the actual reason for joining Yinkin?? (presuming that's the secondary cult). As @Rodney Dangerduck suggested, just give them a matrix... which is no problem, as the book is merely a guide! That's their heirloom...) So, yes, your "legitimately trying to [live up to the ideals]" is really important. Then just add in Detect Oathbreakers (or whatever you're going for) -either Rune or Spirit (or both!!) But is the stead big enough for two of them??? That's the really important question here!

I don't see the need for dual initiation. And I don't see any reason why you couldn't just start with a hunter occupation, but have Babs as the chosen cult - just create a background (not hard - perhaps one of the character's parents suffered - rape would be the obvious route, although some sort of oathbreaking which led to real hardship also works - and the daughter feels the need for revenge). TBH, for me, the dual initiation thing for this just rings a bit too much like a D&D multiclassing. Especially since neither Yinkin nor Odayla really lend themselves to the manhunter/bountyhunter archetype. As for the mention of LM and hunting, a sorcerer with Geomancy would be extremely useful in such a band of vigilantes.

While I get the basic premise, I'm a lot more confused about what would be considered a 'tradition' (or, as per @David Scott's "culturally shared". Could that include spirits that are opposed or hostile to each other? Does it include propitiary worshipped spirits?

However, in response to what others have said, and in particular @Squaredeal Sten, you can HQ to get immortality, plus resurrection, and probably also instant healing... and there are ways to tap into the worship of mortals, such that you can get powers. So. there's not much of a greater benefit to apotheosis - except maybe being able to be in many places at once.

Have we seen/read 1984?? I'm getting that sort of feeling now 😛

I would doubt that last bit is true, at least as a cult-wide (temple-wide) statement. I think that it would be necessary for there to be some teaching of sorcery at some temples and by some cultists - there's too many good possibilities in sorcery for there not to be (think spells like Protective Circle* to create a large, relatively safe healing environment), as well as the possibility of large AoE heal spell (i.e., Accelerate Healing cast on every temple/hospital). And given the nature of the cult, I could see CA temples trying to teach as many initiates as possible to do this (or at least, have a strong divide between the spirit magicians and the sorcerers). (*I'm not seeing a reason why a Heal 6 - or even Heal Body - cast on the circle itself wouldn't have full effect on everybody inside... no???)

Agreed, but i wonder who would supply that spell...? I can't see Ernalda going against her most primal instinct, and it doesn't seem right for either the Maiden or the Crone. Babeester Gor maybe? Maran Gor?? I wouldn't agree with this too much - slightly larger families, maybe. Look at our current farming culture in industrialised areas (which, granted, aren't the same), but given the high rate of people living into their teens, I would think most families would only have 3-4 kids, with 5-6 being unusually large. Also remember that farming is much more communal, and extended families will work together (and live close by).

Thanks Scotty, this is great!!! I'm lost though - what's the actual difference with Sorcerer Initiates Not forbidden: there is no sorcery teaching within the cult and it must be sought elsewhere. Yes, but No Cult Sorcerers: there is no sorcery teaching within the cult and it must be sought elsewhere They say the same thing! (other than the IO bit after the second)

I'm inclined to disagree with some of this. Firstly, if you can be a shaman-priest, then I don't see why a shaman can't become a priest later. And to address your other reasoning (which is caveated), any shaman who is going to join a cult and advance to that level is going to be part of a tradition that closely aligns with the new cult - e.g., Kotaling shamans joining Orlanth. Now, if one comes from quite a different tradition, then sure, they shouldn't be going further up the ranks past basic initiate. But if they aren't, then I don't see the issue. After all, I can definitely see a shaman venturing out to meet up with Orlanth himself in the winds (or at least his kids), and that suggests Wind Voice to me. And, it's been said that it's perfectly fine for an initiate to join spirit societies.

I don't agree with this point. I think scholars do actually want their works to be available and easier for colleagues. After all, that's what scholars and academics do in this world, and there's really not that much difference in this situation. (not too easy, of course - you still have to be an academic to understand it... it's just not for the riff-raff.. which wouldn't matter anyway, given the rest of the training needed)

For most LM temples, I agree. However, in the much larger ones - especially in Nochet - that's not going to be the case. I would imagine quite a number learning about sorcery as their specialisation, and will either know those languages, or have Logician'ed it*, and perhaps even translated into Theyalan. It is, after all, knowledge! I would also imagine that those runes you mention are also trainable in Nochet. So, next question - which is the whole point of this thread - where else? Jonstown should have a few people... (*need a ruling on learning stuff while using Logician and Total Recall)

You know that ZZ is in the Bestiary?? You need 75% in any blunt weapon (should be easily doable as a warrior - although you'll probably need to use +25% from personal bonuses, as no culture in RQG has blunt weapons), and an initiation test - (Average of Cha & Str) x5 (no, not POW as you have). As a pretty violent and bloodthirsty cult, I can see why having parents or others wouldn't matter to join the cult - you have to prove your worthiness yourself. Cult skills are also listed... Intimidate, Shield, "smashing" weapon, plus the others that everyone gets. Ah... Jaja hit save just before I did 😛

This is why I think there should be more sub-cults. There is quite a variation within Ernalda worship such that some priestesses wouldn't need to have it, such as the HQ Ernalda the Queen. (just as Orlanth Rex doesn't need to have Lightning).

I certainly agree with same of the logic here, but I think we should also consider that being an Initiate means a sacrifice of 1 POW, and therefore it only takes another point to have a basic Bless Pregnancy... as you said, only about 15 or so needed per year - so 15 initiates (spread out over those 200-220 women). The only thing I would question is whether those with BP are actually intending to head towards the priestesshood... and I don't think that's a requirement. Being a temporary midwife's assistant would be enough.

But the change in POW/RP economy changes this significantly. As does the change in spell selection. Previously, when you sacrificed your POW to get a Rune/Divine spell, it was likely to be One-Use, and you were getting one and one only spell. Now, you're getting indefinite usage of your POW sacrifice, and you get not only the one spell you want, but another dozen or so handed to you for free. No so limiting when, as above, you automatically get a dozen 'free' spells along with your specialty one... and have it very reusable. This needs to be made so incredibly clear... how many new players are going to know how widespread X temple is, and what subcults are worshipped there??? (for each cult where this is relevant?) And, how about Ernalda? Currently, no sub-cults there...

It seems to me that the whole sub-cults thing is getting really stripped back to only a couple. And in doing so, makes the availability of those specialised spells so much more open. This is not a good thing, IM(ns)HO.

While editiing Ian's manuscripts for the new Pavis material, I suggested a variant of sorcery which could be used by non-sorcerers. Basically, just a fully memorised invocation that does one thing, and one thing only. It can't be manipulated by them in anyway, and so all variables are fixed. It's still not easy to cast, and that's why it has its own skill percentage. Currently, Ian's put them in the 'for later consideration' pile.

I'd imagine two people... the older, wiser midwife, and the younger apprentice who is learning the trade.

One of the things that affects this is the idea that if you sacrifice a point of POW for a Rune Point, you automatically get a new Rune Spell - and it's implied that you can choose any from the list available (in a major temple... obviously, more limitations the smaller the holy place). I think this should be restricted. And, perhaps payment should be necessary - especially for the more specialist spells. Bless Crops - cheap. Bless Pregnancy - more expensive. It would also take care of the "every Orlanthi has Lightning" issue... if Lightning became more difficult to acquire.

Then my apologies.... I was reading differently than intended (or, without the strength of the preceding " " bit....)

I think your first line is important here... Sure, everyone would want a Blessed Pregnancy. But that's a vastly different idea to who would or should sacrifice to get the spell. Following your logic, and everyone getting the spell, we should ask "how many times will that spell get used?", and the answer is probably in the realms of only 2 or 3 times in their entire life. Probably less, because someone else in the household would do the casting (remember, we should expect about 70% of all adult females to be Ernaldans). This then means, the spell is wasted for the vast majority of the time, and for the vast majority of the people. So... should there be at least one member of a family who has the spell? Again, I don't think it makes sense for this, as once one member of a family has it, then it's unlikely to still get cast except for every few years.. maybe only a few times in each generation. So, how many times would it be cast per clan? How many kids are getting born each year? And that's the actual answer. A clan apparently has about 30% children, so even a large clan of 1000 people will have 300 kids - i.e., under the age of (let's say) 15. That's an average of only 20 kids per year. Which means - you only need 20 people of the 300 or so Ernaldan initiates needing to cast the spell per year. And so, the sacrifice to get it is wasted for the approx 280 Ernaldan initiates remaining..... (and that's still presuming 1 spell-casting per individual)