Squaredeal Sten

Let's assume for the sake of argument that this CA doesn"t know Sleep, or that the POW vs. POW fails. My point is the morality, not the magic and the die rolls.

You lost me on both of those points. I am sure of the difference between fiction and reality, whether it is in print or in video. Gloranthans are sure it is reality. I don't see any of the media - Print, film. video. Voice, or pantomime - as having a built in version of morality. Print can carry any moral message you want, from Hitler"s to Gandhi's. Yes I have heard " the medium is the message" but at best that is hyperbole. At worst, it is confusing framing.

I would say that Gloranthans practise religion as people in the ancient world would have if their beliefs were true and demonstrable, like an Orlanth rune lord able to demonstrate lightning. Or an initiate's experience of seeing the other worlds ( spirit world, gods' world, hero plane ....) Not just jawbone from a priest.

I am also unsure of what is in a chief test. Jeff"s post above is the first I heard of a chief test: I had thought it was just politics since the Ring members will have typically known each other all their lives. I take it from Jeff's " if" that the Ring is probably the nominating committee and a test is only needed if they are divided and propose two nominees. But if I am going to make up a test, [1] It is not going to include a duel. The purpose is not for Ring members to kill each other off. [2] it should be a plain test of the Orlanthi virtues, done seriatim. [3] I currently have no opinion about who judges.. One Ring member, as the Lawspeaker for justice? The whole ring? All the clan's adults?

I am in a game in which, for a little while, someone else played a Zorak Zoran cultist. It was pretty clear that this was the character's response to past events, to prejudice and persecution. Who will say that's not at least occasionally right and moral? There are Real World situations in which the most appropriate response IS to go berserk. We occasionally give Medals of Honor for that. It's not all bad all the time. What turns the ZZ into an a**hole is that he tries to apply that to all situations. it was also pretty clear in the game that Zorak Zoran bloody-mindedness is not the answer to all problems. As my own character, an Argan Argar initiate, said, "we can't kill our way out of this." But then Argan Argar is the Darkness god who does talk and worry about Equal Exchange and give aid including to folks who are not Uz. As another example of what i am trying to get at, your Chalana Arroy initiate is to be unfailingly pacifistic. ( Except to Chaos, and that's a big exception but the CA won't have the skills to physically fight Chaos either.) Ordinarily the CA is a much more comfortable neighbor than the ZZ. So what happens if the CA sees a small child about to be attacked by a large non-Chaotic predator? I am not a pacifist, and would kill the wolf. The CA would ideally keep hands off and concentrate on how moral it is to follow CA's example of non violence. I think I would be following the more moral course. By this example i am indicating that always being nice is not an infallible moral guide either. There are times when it is just as objectionable as the ZZ's berserk rage.

Not quite right. There are different divine moral examples. Orlanth screwed up the world and then tried to set it right. He is not a perfect moral example in all respects. Eff's discussion of Jungian psychology is most relevant IMHO. From the first day that I was exposed to RQ2 I have understood that the gods are archetypes and to Initiate in a cult is to commit oneself to being a better exemplar of that archetype. That doesn't change the proposition that these cults are transactional religions.

As I recall it is mentioned in Well of Daliath that Argenteus was murdered by the Great Suster during Sacred Time. I looked that up very recently, as I have a campaign that just entered 1629 ST. No location is given. But where will He be during Sacred Time? IMHO not in the Provinces but in Glamour or on the Red Moon. He fled the Battle of Heroes and did not stay in Tarsh. Wouldn't he have fled to his capital? I imagine the killing itself as done by surprise. No trip to a distant Sacred sacrificial site. He will be doing his usual ceremonies. Don't give him a period of captivity to prepare his own magics. Just off Argenteus and burn the body. In public at a Sacred Time ritual? In private at breakfast? In bed? Keep it simple. Complex plots fail.

If they leave with a Storm Bull item - no matter what direction they think they are leaving to - they will next find themselves in the Eternal Battle. By the way, why do you interpret that as being given a magic artifact? Couldn't Storm Bull equally give knowledge of his magic? Or alter someone's fears?

There is indeed. It postulates Esrolian attempts to settle grazing land. It names a PHP clan, which makes two of their six for which I have names. It is very short on dialogue and cultural habits, too bad.

The " reality of tbe gods" is as malleable as other legends, in my unofficial view. As demonstrated by the God Learners and also by the Seven Mothers reviving the Red Goddess. As demonstrated by the Elmal/Yelmalio threads that will not die, even though they annoy Jeff and are beginning to bore me. How malleable is that? Usually not very. As I understand it change will normally be cumulative and minor. One heroquester coming back from the Other Side with an edited legend won't do it. But repetition of quests and telling that tale to many others, will do it as the Gloranthan population accepts the edited legend. Generational change or slower is the pace I envision. But i wrote "normally". Sometimes, once an Age, the abnormal is done: You get Monrogh reshaping Yelmalio as he reshapes the Yelmalians. You get the Seven Mothers presenting the Red Goddess. These are still the products of a charismatic prophet and a lifetime. A long campaign, not an adventure. And while Your Glorantha May Vary, that doesn't mean mine varies with yours.

This does raise the question of what armed Vendref look like. No horsemen for sure. I would think their default weapon and battle skill level is lower than Sartarites because of past history.

That is a major revision. You're right. it's there. At this point we need a paste-in revision to the guide.

So by this statement you are contradicting the comment above that for Grazelands i have what's necessary in RQiG, Ling of Sartar, and Guide to Glorantha. So there is another necessary reference. So where did you get this?

According to the guide the Vendref are not allowed tohave weapons. How do Humakti function without a sword?

Yes, and 33% growth over 4 years is 8% a year in town populations.. This indicates either amazing fertility, perhaps a wave of twin births- or in-migration. But Who would immigrate to become a vendref? Your Sartarites are not likely to find it attractive to give up their Swords and Orlanth worship. Can you immigrate to join the Pure Horse People? IMHO probably not often, though there might be an adoption rite. But town life is not their style unless elderly or disabled. This leaves outlanders coming to the towns for trade, but how many can the towns absorb? Few unless the customers or state of prosperity change. And we are just coming off the Great Winter, 1625 is not the culmination of a boom. I may just postulate a mysterious magical wave of twin births. Did someone heroquest to Uleria for fertility?

Looking over Jeff's posts in those two documents: the first one, March 11th 2023: The population figures need some mental gymnastics to match what's in the Guide, but the big news is that the Vendref are about half the population. Slightly smaller news, Jeff's urban population is 1,000 higher than the Guide. "Roughly 18,000 are Pure Horse People and another 18,000 are farmers. About 4000 people live in the three trading towns. Tensions between these groups get resolved by the Feathered Horse Queen." That's 40,000, OK, but only if the townies are in addition to the two aforesaid groups. And the guide told us many of the townies are pure horse People and many are Vendref. Other figures from this: Total adult population = 26,000 Cult breakdown, re-ordered to size instead of pantheon vertically, and stereotypically female / male horizontally Female ? Male Ernalda 9250 Yelm 5000 Orlanth Thunderous (Barntar) 4500 Other Lightbringers 2000 Maran Gor + Babeester Gor 1575 Humakt 1325 Seven Mothers 1325 Misc. smaller cults 1725 Subtotals by sex 10,825 -5,050 - 10,825 So as I read it, the approx. 9.000 male Pure Horse People are slightly more than half Yelmites, and the other 4,000 are Humakti, Seven Mothers, and smaller cults. It is ambiguous whether any of them have joined Orlanth. But this implies an "other Lightbringer' contingent of at least 1,000. Looking at the female population, 9,000 PHP and 9,000 plus ?? Vendref- If we split the Ernaldans evenly between the two groups, and since the Vendref are not allowed weapons the PHP get all the -gor cultists - then the PHP female population is: 4635 Ernaldans, 1575 -Gor cults, leaving 2790?? Lots of Seven Mothers and smaller cults, in fact most of those! And basically one out of every six PHP women you meet will be a -Gor Cultist. Maybe more. Next subject: Relations between the cowpokes and the farmers: ".....Instead, the Feathered Horse Queen crushed the Pure Horse People ranchers and enforced a compromise both groups could deal with. The farmers trade fodder and food to the Pure Horse People and in exchange the herds are kept away from their farmlands in the valleys. The Pure Horse People view the farmers as tenant peasants, the Orlanthi view themselves as free farmers who coexist with the Pure Horse People." This leaves open to interpretation what the face to face relations are. Given that the Pure Horse People view the Vendref as very inferior, my own interpretation is that the PHP not polite to the Vendref and the unarmed Vendref endure it. Detail to be generated later.

If the Grazelanders actually do worship their horses then that takes care of one type of mobile shrine. Hard to interpret in terms of RQ mechanics though. Would the king stallion be or host a Wyter? This still doesn't cover Yu-Kargazant worship. For some of this we might have to wait until the 2024 releases in the Cults of Runequest series.

The Guide 40,000 humans in he Grazelands. This would include the Vendref. 37,000 rural, 3,000 urban. "Th Pure Horse people worship their horses"! "and raise mighty herds of superior creatures which they sell and with which they carry goods across Dragon pass." ? So besides being horse traders they are merchants or at run pack trains? Interesting, this has not been visible in more recent rliterature. And i note, they don't seem to do issaries. Culture similar to Prax - never herd cattle - Men are generally considered superior to women (despite the FHQ). [Here is one aspect for which i am looking for some background, color, and customs]. The Vendref are Orlanthi, enslaved OR enserfed [which? There is a difference] not allowed to have weapons or ride horses. many of the Verndef meerchants. the FHQ speaks for and is protector of the Vendref. I don't see a Vendref population figure. The Grazelanders retire their disabled and elderly to fortified settlements alongside the vendref crafters and merchants. These are designated places for trade with outlanders. The map page 176 names three settlements each with populations of about 1,000: North Post, Queen's Post, Rich Post. so there is not much room in these figures for other small settlements. There is also a question as to whether Vendref are in smaller villages near these settlements. [we need to investigate how this works.] The Vendref are forbidden to worship Orlanth. They do worship Ernalda, Barntar... and as I recall from another passage, Issaries. More (rare) sources of conflict & adventure: Dragonewts hunting humans. Carnivorous dinosaurs..

OK, the few obvious facts: The RQiG book says Grazelanders (Presumably not Vendref) spend their time herding horses. Per Smoking Ruin they also sell protection to traders and travelers. No farmers, metal crafters, or other trades. The Featherd Horse Queen is worshiped as" a living goddess. But available material says not an actual goddess. She is more like the Emperor of Japan. Chiefs are elected. They like Sun cults, of which we have the most detail on Yelmalio. But Yelm = Yo Kargazant is their choice. The FHQ is High Priestess of the Earth, goddess they call La Ungariant which my spell check wants to distort. Also Kero Fin. As I understand it, unlike the Praxians the clans are not at war with each other. There are trade routes from Tarsh to Esrolia through the Grazers" lands. Taxed by the Grazers but not run by them, that's the Vendref. If they can do long distance trade then the Vendref have more mobility than indicated. The sources of drama should include -conflict with the Uz; -whatever Ethelrist may do, though he ought not to be aggressive with neighbors , he sells war, why should he give it for free? - spillover of Tarsh and Lunar politics What I don't have a feel for is the flavor customs, things like hospitality, marriage, do they use a clan ring, do they practise casual banditry. And how seriously do I take this no-crafters thing: Do the vendref make their arrows? Their tents or yurts? Saddles or do they ride bareback? If I take it completely seriously they become like the Spartiates. Use of mobile clan shrines is Indicated by their rider habits. Not to speak of inventing some truly unique trademark habits.

Like RW industrialized societies, they will find it to their advantage to trade for raw materials that they do not produce themselves. And if you look at the Mostali cities on the map, you will see that they occupy only a small fraction of Genertela and so there are many earth-sourced raw materials not found in areas they occupy. in addition Mostali are not widely known as farmers, so they will need to trade for agriculturally and naturally sourced raw materials. An example of a need they would trade to fill is ingredients of Black Powder, which they need to keep military security. While no non-Mostali know the formula, we in the RW know that they will need saltpeter and charcoal, neither of which are mined. They will trade with humans for charcoal or wood, and for containers of excrement which the Mostali will process. Although the Mostali may synthesize their food [and may not] they would need organic materials to make it from, and no recycling process is 100% efficient. Therefore from time to time the Mostali will trade for food or at least recognizable organics.

Are there any other published adventures set in the Grazelands, other than Chaosium's The Smoking Ruin and the related JC expansion, Korolstead? I would have thought that with the Grazelanders being a starting adventurer option in RQiG, more people would be locating adventures there. On the other hand we have a lot of cultural background on Sartar and Prax. Little for the Grazelands.

I think this (uploaded file) flowchart matches the Spirit world / spirit travel rules on pages 371-375. If you see an error in it please tell me. Sorry for the crude quality of the flowcharting, that is as good as I can do with MS-Word. Flowchar in spirit world.pdf

Have you flowcharted the sequence yet? Handy to keep everyone under the same understanding. As i look at it the GM should keep two counter tracks: The original 1D6 of time rolled/used, and Extension Time bought & rolled and time used. The total of the two used figures will be needed for that hourly roll vs. POWx4 or hit point loss.

See MOB's March 1 thread. Just "July".

It looks as though David Scott has put considerable thought into this. Look at these threads: Middle World and Spirit World Location Correlation https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/15548-middle-world-and-spirit-world-location-correlation/#comment-244221 and here is an example from play also Contacting spirits to solve a crime...https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/12879-contacting-spirits-to-solve-a-crime/#comment-201255