Angles/Jutes vs Saxons (minor spoiler alert for The Specter King)

[Morien]

8 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

If the OP wants much more than "Saxons! Chaaarrge!" this probably isn't the time, place, and situation for it.

Reminds me of the time I sent the PKs to Anglia to see how cruelly Duke Hervis was oppressing the Angles there. The PKs actually had more sympathy for the Angles than the Duke, and thought that the Duke deserved every rebellion that he got. If I recall correctly, they ended up complaining to Arthur about it, and given that they had some significant political counters (having saved Arthur from Camille), Arthur actually stepped in to start reining Hervis in.

[Atgxtg]

35 minutes ago, Morien said:

Reminds me of the time I sent the PKs to Anglia to see how cruelly Duke Hervis was oppressing the Angles there. The PKs actually had more sympathy for the Angles than the Duke, and thought that the Duke deserved every rebellion that he got. If I recall correctly, they ended up complaining to Arthur about it, and given that they had some significant political counters (having saved Arthur from Camille), Arthur actually stepped in to start reining Hervis in.

Yeah, and the Duke is a good example of what can happen with a high Hate. It's not that this adventure can't go down the negotiation path, but that there is very little reason for it to  do so. 

[Morien]

14 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

Yeah, and the Duke is a good example of what can happen with a high Hate. It's not that this adventure can't go down the negotiation path, but that there is very little reason for it to  do so. 

Yep. I mean, in consideration, one could switch out the Angles/Saxons for other Cymri like from Malahaut, but it wouldn't change the adventure. The aggressors are so moustache-twirling evil for the lulz that it is still pretty clear who is in the right here.

Now, if one wanted to make things interesting, one could flip the roles: Have the Saxons be the defending party and it is the Cymri or the Romans oppressing them. But then the rest of the adventure would need to get rewritten a bit as well. I mean, it would be easy enough to do, just switching one background for another, but then you would definitely run against 'Wait, why are we helping these Saxons again?' -problem. Especially since Chivalry isn't really a thing yet and the PKs have Hate Saxons, some of them having high values. It would be much easier to see them siding with the aggressors in that case, thinking that the Saxons deserve to get thumped in turn. This kind of switcheroo would work better post-Badon: Mercy for the defeated opponent, protecting widows and orphans, even if they are Saxon, etc... That might make for a very nice adventure, actually, give the PKs nice chance to rise to their Virtues or be dragged down by their Hate.

[Atgxtg]

Yeah, it';s just a bad fir for the group at the wrong time. The PKs come into a situation where they see people whom they dislike doing something bad. So the natural response will be to want to oppose them. May be if the odds are bad, the PKs unarmored and such they might not be able to, but they sure don't have  any motivation to want to sit down and negotiate things. 

And the timing is just all wrong. The PKs are nearing the Anarchy Period, and Saxons have been and will remain the defacto boogeymen. So this is really a bad time to run an adventure that relies on the PKS humanizing them. The natural response would be to want to boot these "invaders" out of Britain. They are only there because they allied with Vortigern the tyrant and murdered the rightful lords of the land, and even poisoned good king Aurelius only ten years ago. It's almost a prefect storm for things not going peacefully. 

The first hurdle I see is why would the PKs even want to negotiate? They should probably be thinking about shoring up their defenses and convincing the higher ups to drive these barbarians out of Britain. There is really little reason for things to go well, and less reason for the Pks to want things to go well. Just the opening where Beomart  doesn't recolonize the King's law gives the PKs justification to kick some butt. It's basically changes him from just a Saxon to a treasonous Saxon. I don't  see this playing out the way the OP wishes.

 

[Morien]

43 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

an adventure that relies on the PKS humanizing them

Except that the adventure doesn't do that. The PKs are supposed to side with the Romans against the Saxons, so no problem as far as the adventure is concerned.

44 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

I don't  see this playing out the way the OP wishes.

Not only that, but... the PKs are not really even supposed to negotiate with 'the bad guys'. This would play almost the same if the invaders were Cymri from Garloth or Malahaut, just without the PKs benefitting from their Hate or getting their Hate triggered.

It will end up in the same 'Bash the Enemy' situation, unless the PKs chicken out and run from the adventure.

[SirUkpyr]

8 hours ago, Morien said:

Reminds me of the time I sent the PKs to Anglia to see how cruelly Duke Hervis was oppressing the Angles there. The PKs actually had more sympathy for the Angles than the Duke, and thought that the Duke deserved every rebellion that he got. If I recall correctly, they ended up complaining to Arthur about it, and given that they had some significant political counters (having saved Arthur from Camille), Arthur actually stepped in to start reining Hervis in.

When I had the PKs going through Anglia on an adventure (part of the whole Camille and the Saxon Rebellion), we had one PK with a Hate Saxon of 20 who saw nothing wrong with how the Angles were being treated. The "low-life saxon rat-scum deserve to be starved to death". Other PKs disagreed, and as one of them was an RTK that RTK-PK basically told the Duke that the rebellion was his own fault for treating the Saxon's so inhumanely, dishonorably, and unchivalrously. A few passion and trait rolls later, Duke Hervis is challenging the RTK to a duel of honor to the death - the RTK pointing out that as they are both RTKs they cannot fight to the death - the Duke fumbling his "prudent" and renouncing his being an RTK - and the RTK then killing the Duke in the judicial challenge.

Then - after all that - and much very good RP - the RTK in question replaces Duke Hervis - and now gets to clean up the mess and retire as an active PK.

Much fun was had by all, and the PK who started it all rolling with his super-high hate saxon then proceeded to go "hmmm - maybe I need to lower that passion just a bit".*laughs*

 

 

Edited November 10, 2019 by SirUkpyr

[Atgxtg]

15 hours ago, SirUkpyr said:

When I had the PKs going through Anglia on an adventure (part of the whole Camille and the Saxon Rebellion), we had one PK with a Hate Saxon of 20 who saw nothing wrong with how the Angles were being treated. The "low-life saxon rat-scum deserve to be starved to death". Other PKs disagreed, and as one of them was an RTK that RTK-PK basically told the Duke that the rebellion was his own fault for treating the Saxon's so inhumanely, dishonorably, and unchivalrously. A few passion and trait rolls later, Duke Hervis is challenging the RTK to a duel of honor to the death - the RTK pointing out that as they are both RTKs they cannot fight to the death - the Duke fumbling his "prudent" and renouncing his being an RTK - and the RTK then killing the Duke in the judicial challenge.

Then - after all that - and much very good RP - the RTK in question replaces Duke Hervis - and now gets to clean up the mess and retire as an active PK.

Much fun was had by all, and the PK who started it all rolling with his super-high hate saxon then proceeded to go "hmmm - maybe I need to lower that passion just a bit".*laughs*

 

 

That's a great way for things to play out, especially in the mid to latter part of the timeline when RTKs, chivalry, mercy to enemies and such are all things. But I think in 490, when the Saxons are the major threat, and  the "low-life saxon rat-scum deserve to be starved to death", attitude is more prevalent, that sort of outcome is unlikely. 

[Tizun Thane]

I think the adventure is more fun with hate (saxons). The encounter with Ethelrem may be less interesting, but he have quite the numbers with him, so it's up to the PK to be reckless or wise.

Otherwise, there is no saxon knight during Uther's reign. To resolve the issue, if I were you, I would say this baron Wilfrith swore fealty to high king Aurelius Ambrosius after the high King submitted Nohaut. It would explain the "baron" thing and the "knights" thing of his men.

Maybe baron Wilfrith forgot to swear fealty to Uther, or maybe he did... If they are Uther's men, it creates interesting problematics to your players!

[Morien]

Or the PKs are simply using 'equivalent' titles. Saxon thegns & heorthgeneats = knights and ealdorman = baron. After all, it is not as if the PKs are actually calling themselves 'knights' in English, either.

[Atgxtg]

3 hours ago, Morien said:

Or the PKs are simply using 'equivalent' titles. Saxon thegns & heorthgeneats = knights and ealdorman = baron. After all, it is not as if the PKs are actually calling themselves 'knights' in English, either.

Yeah, and even if they did, it would be altered to something the other side would understand in translation. For the most part the actual titles are probably best used to add "cultural color" to characters. I intorduced a Berroc Saxon in my campaign, Uflric, Thegn of Goldenford, who is interchangeably called Sir Ulfric by British Knights, depending on the circumstances and how much respect they have for him. Later in the campaign some NPCs will start to refer to Goldenford as Guildford , too.

 

It probably comes doen to being a case of if the people you are dealing with consider you respectable enough to  beleive  in your title. With Kings and other nobles that is almost always the case. With Knight equilvants, it might be a bit harder.

[jeffjerwin]

The Old Welsh/Cymric word for 'knight' is marchawc, literally, 'horseman'.

[Cornelius]

If a high hatred means you become a frenzied killing machine every time you see that which you hate, you will probably not live long. In my games a high hatred does not mean you go out killing everyone you hate. Of course you do not trust them and will assume that they will be trying to kill you. and since you interpret every action negatively it may lead to insults and eventually a fight. Imho there are other ways to work your hatred into the game. You can set up your liege not to make deals with them, work so others will view them as untrustworthy or such things. And you will not accept anything that will benefit them. 

In my game the players went into the Pennine mountains and came across a village attacked by raiders. A group of Saxon warriors defended the Cymric inhabitants of the village. This gave them a view of the honor of the Saxons, although the PK with the high hatred still assumed that the Saxons would stab them in the back at any time. He was also usually the spokesperson of the group, but in this one of the other PKs took this up (He did not have a Hate(Saxons) at all). Also the PK with a high Hate(Saxons) had a high Hate(Picts) so it 'worked out' in the end. (BTW the Pk is a knight who collects hatreds. Aside form the Picts and Saxons he also has one for Irish, Cornish knights and Merlin. It makes negotiations interesting and difficult)

[Atgxtg]

3 hours ago, Cornelius said:

If a high hatred means you become a frenzied killing machine every time you see that which you hate, you will probably not live long.

It's not, n or should it be. But it dos give the character certain predispositions and can affect how the react to a situation. In the adventure presented the PKS come across a group of Saxons abducting a Young lady, who begs for help, and the Saxons tell the knights to push off and that they do not recognize the King's Law only the law of their own Saxon lord.

So the knights are supposed to fight the Saxons, and have little incentive to want to send a group off the their hall in  order to negotiate with Saxons who do not recognize the King Law (that's treason right there, as is attacking people on the king's road, abducting maidens is also a crime). Hatred are only going to make the knights reaction more extreme and seem more justified.

It's not that everyone is riding along the road when suddenly Sir Hates-A-Lot draws his Sword and starts cutting into some other travelers because they are "Saxon scum!" It that Sir-Hates-A-Lot is riding along and stumbled across a group of Saxon raiders in the acct, and expecting him to let it slide

 

[Tizun Thane]

25 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

with Saxons who do not recognize the King Law (that's treason right there, as is attacking people on the king's road, abducting maidens is also a crime). Hatred are only going to make the knights reaction more extreme and seem more justified.

For the record, I will be playing the Saxons devil's advocate. It's not the king road, and the saxons are from Nohaut in Cumbria. The King of Logres is not their overlord. And I daresay... kidnapping a maiden is the saxon way of courtship

[Atgxtg]

9 minutes ago, Tizun Thane said:

For the record, I will be playing the Saxons devil's advocate. It's not the king road, and the saxons are from Nohaut in Cumbria. The King of Logres is not their overlord. And I daresay... kidnapping a maiden is the saxon way of courtship

Except that King Arthur is also High King of Britain and thus is their overlord.

As for running this in 490 with Uther, well he used to be High King (and IMO still should be, since he is in the sources, he is Uther Pendragon), but latter KAP 5 supplments have changed that, so they might get a pass there, except they are being caught abducting a maiden red handed. 

What I'm getting at is Hatred or not, why should the PKS be taking the Saxon's side? in 490? This is all happening to those who lost their leige lords at Long Knives, fought to regain thier lands from Hengest's mob, and have just suffered a half dozen Saxon invasions in the last 20 years. Even PKs without a Hate (Saxon) Passion, and those a few and far between in Britian at that time, are probably not going to want to go negotiate with them. Their track record in negotiations (*cough* Foederanti *coughh* Long Knives *cough*) isn't very good. Refusing to negotiate at that time isn't so much Hatred and Prudence.

Now going back to my earlier posts, I mentioned that things are somewhat different if the GM introduces some "good Saxons" to the PKs that are trustworthy and the PKs might sympathize with.

 

[Cornelius]

On 11/13/2019 at 3:36 PM, Atgxtg said:

It's not, n or should it be. But it dos give the character certain predispositions and can affect how the react to a situation. In the adventure presented the PKS come across a group of Saxons abducting a Young lady, who begs for help, and the Saxons tell the knights to push off and that they do not recognize the King's Law only the law of their own Saxon lord.

So the knights are supposed to fight the Saxons, and have little incentive to want to send a group off the their hall in  order to negotiate with Saxons who do not recognize the King Law (that's treason right there, as is attacking people on the king's road, abducting maidens is also a crime). Hatred are only going to make the knights reaction more extreme and seem more justified.

It's not that everyone is riding along the road when suddenly Sir Hates-A-Lot draws his Sword and starts cutting into some other travelers because they are "Saxon scum!" It that Sir-Hates-A-Lot is riding along and stumbled across a group of Saxon raiders in the acct, and expecting him to let it slide

 

To be honest in my group they would intervene. Not because they hate Saxons as well that they feel they must help the Lady. They see that as their duty as a knight. Of course a Hate Saxons helps them in this regard.

[Atgxtg]

39 minutes ago, Cornelius said:

To be honest in my group they would intervene. Not because they hate Saxons as well that they feel they must help the Lady. They see that as their duty as a knight. Of course a Hate Saxons helps them in this regard.

Yeah, I think that is what most groups would do. It was kinda written that way.

[Tizun Thane]

On 11/8/2019 at 4:59 AM, stryker99 said:

Thanks to a lot of great replies asking about adventure support in another thread I am planning on running the Adventure of the Horned Boar from The Specter King, moving it to around 490 when the PKs are gallivanting across the north as emissaries of Uther

By the way, did you play it?

[stryker99]

On 12/16/2019 at 6:38 AM, Tizun Thane said:

By the way, did you play it?

Yes, and it went off very well. The players really enjoyed the change of pace from the battles of the Uther period. They were very interested in the Roman connection. The high hate player had a VERY uncomfortable time in Baron Wilfrith's hall, he was wearing his hatred on his sleeve and I had great fun taunting him (this knight has a very high appearance and high courtly skills, so my favorite taunt was "I didn't know the southerners had LADY knights!"). Thankfully his famous prudent and high hospitality scores allowed him to keep his composure, along with some help from his more level headed friends. I definitely made the player pay a price for his high hatred as he constantly felt on the verge of losing control with dire consequences and was very nervous. Every PK had a chance to shine and role-play.