What if the mythos was not that powerful?

[Qizilbashwoman]

On 11/22/2019 at 3:34 PM, Old Man Henerson said:

things like Cthulhu represent the ultimate enemy to defeat

I know I'm late to the party but remember: Cthulhu is the priest of the great monstrous gods. He's not a god, he's just a priest of them.

Upscaling horror into modern sensibilities is something Charlie Stross has done sensibly in his Laundry Files books. The trick is to find things your players can and will beat rather than ending up like Cabin in the Woods.

[Stormkhan Cogg of Pavis]

Based on the Mythos, we play investigators who fight against an inconceivable foe. We stab the beggars but they still move! We lob sticks of dynamite and they look ... mildly put out! We have successes - after all, if CoC was that lethal, why do we have character development? - but character experiences (plus increases in Cthulhu Mythos skill) gradually makes the inconceivable ... conceived: "they" don't care and we will lose. The huge advantage that the real hard-hitters such as Nyarlathotep and Yogsothoth have over us in game terms acts as a goad! Win or die trying!

I guess what I'm saying (in a vague and wind-bag manner) is ... CoC and massively powerful monsters are intertwined in the heart of the game. I remember a little outcry when "Blood Brothers" was released in 1990. "It's Call of Cthulhu but not so serious!" was a mild rebuke. I like the concept of Cultists making more of the objects of their worship than is reality, though. Like when a "hellfire" Preacher rants about the invading thugs being struck down for their impiety, but gets struck by lightning immediately after. A breeze around the witnesses carrying the words "Shucks - missed!"

[Stormkhan Cogg of Pavis]

3 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

I know I'm late to the party but remember: Cthulhu is the priest of the great monstrous gods. He's not a god, he's just a priest of them.

Upscaling horror into modern sensibilities is something Charlie Stross has done sensibly in his Laundry Files books. The trick is to find things your players can and will beat rather than ending up like Cabin in the Woods.

The problem I find is that there is nowadays* a demand for more! Got a superbeing able to wish people away? No probs. Let's have a superbeing that can wish planets non-existence. Planet-schmanet ... lets watch a film where the bad guy can just click his fingers and ...

Back in the day (1920s), the whole concept of super-Gods actually not caring what motivates us parasites was a chilling nihilism. It's what made Lovecraft scary! It was the concept of our insignificance. And this horror, this futility, is carried over into the game. It's like the whole "journey" narrative. Which is more the challenge - fighting against the odds or just saying "we can't win" and making our characters open a vein?

* My inner Miserable Old Git is being channeled here.

[Qizilbashwoman]

11 minutes ago, Stormkhan Cogg of Pavis said:

the whole concept of super-Gods actually not caring what motivates us parasites was a chilling nihilism.

euhhhh I mean 2/3rds of what motivated Lovecraft was not nihilism but his Portuguese neighbors eating garlic.

But I digress.

One of the things that you can do is remember that the Very Large Alpha Predators haven't noticed us. The cultists are trying to send a beacon up, whether they realise the consequences or not (likely not). The struggle is less "kill the Black Hole coming to devour the Earth" than "prevent the cultists from making the Black Hole notice the Earth in the first place".

The more riled up things get with unnatural activity, the bigger the predators that come. We already have ghouls and other lowbies around; some of them, like ghouls, are about human-equivalents. Then you start to get the really nasty ones - the Fungi and such. Runaway Shoggoths are essentially untenable; skipping around them might be possible to loot important tools or information that might let you zap some Fungi.

And so forth.

[Stormkhan Cogg of Pavis]

A very fair point ... and a good way of putting it, especially in game terms.

I've always advocated the "ease them into the horror" approach, seeing as thwarting the Cultists, nobbling the lesser thingies (such as Deep Ones, ghouls etc.) then lobbing a real nasty booger at them. Firstly, from a game perspective, they've built up some skills and experience which may give them an edge. Secondly, from a story perspective it's revealing the horror over time.

[Qizilbashwoman]

2 hours ago, Stormkhan Cogg of Pavis said:

A very fair point ... and a good way of putting it, especially in game terms.

I've always advocated the "ease them into the horror" approach, seeing as thwarting the Cultists, nobbling the lesser thingies (such as Deep Ones, ghouls etc.) then lobbing a real nasty booger at them. Firstly, from a game perspective, they've built up some skills and experience which may give them an edge. Secondly, from a story perspective it's revealing the horror over time.

Also, I'm a fan of "some of them monsters ain't evil". Ghouls are alien but they aren't necessarily out to murder you. Pickman going full ghoul is a favorite idea of mine, and the Dreamlands are a major source of inspiration for me. Ghouls can also be a source of horror even if they aren't up to no good; you're investigating fraud or something and it turns out the crimes are funnelling luxuries (books, paper, clothing, spices) to mysterious benefactors, and the interfacing humans were kidnapped and raised by the ghoul families specifically to be the Faces for these crimes. They're not going to turn in their own families...

[Atgxtg]

3 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

euhhhh I mean 2/3rds of what motivated Lovecraft was not nihilism but his Portuguese neighbors eating garlic.

But I digress.

That's a good point. Part of the thing about Lovecraft was that he had a somewhat sheltered upbringing and was reclusive, and a lot of the Mythos lore seemed to have been inspired by his inability to cope with  New York City. So a case could be made that many of these Mythos horrors are not as SAN busting as they seem to be, since Lovecraft would have lost SAN to stuff that most of us wouldn't even be bothered by, like who is riding in the same streetcar.

[Atgxtg]

3 hours ago, Stormkhan Cogg of Pavis said:

The problem I find is that there is nowadays* a demand for more! Got a superbeing able to wish people away? No probs. Let's have a superbeing that can wish planets non-existence. Planet-schmanet ... lets watch a film where the bad guy can just click his fingers and ...

Yeah, it what happens when you have a century of escalation. Generally, over time, something that seemed shocking and  outrageous becomes more tolerable and writers have to push the envelope further to get the reaction they wanted. Plus there is the advances in technology to consider. When mankind can wipe out an entire city, or even an entire country  in  under an hour then superbeings need to get bumped up to that scale. 

3 hours ago, Stormkhan Cogg of Pavis said:

Back in the day (1920s), the whole concept of super-Gods actually not caring what motivates us parasites was a chilling nihilism. It's what made Lovecraft scary! It was the concept of our insignificance. And this horror, this futility, is carried over into the game. It's like the whole "journey" narrative. Which is more the challenge - fighting against the odds or just saying "we can't win" and making our characters open a vein?

* My inner Miserable Old Git is being channeled here.

Yes. I think in terms of a story it's great  and in terms of an RPG it terrible.  Nihilism in fiction can be scary and entertaining, but it just turns a  game into an exercise in futility. Ultimately it doesn't matter what  the investigators do because once Cthlulhu gets the wake up call, or some other power entity decides  to flex it muscles on Earth, it's all over. THe only reason why the investigators many to  defeat the Mythos at all is because they are beneath notice.

I think that is a good reason why a lot of CoC campaigns do not focus so much on the Mythos. 

 

[Old Man Henerson]

3 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

euhhhh I mean 2/3rds of what motivated Lovecraft was not nihilism but his Portuguese neighbors eating garlic.

20 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

That's a good point. Part of the thing about Lovecraft was that he had a somewhat sheltered upbringing and was reclusive, and a lot of the Mythos lore seemed to have been inspired by his inability to cope with  New York City. So a case could be made that many of these Mythos horrors are not as SAN busting as they seem to be, since Lovecraft would have lost SAN to stuff that most of us wouldn't even be bothered by, like who is riding in the same streetcar.

It is a wonder that Lovecraft made friends with Howard in the first place, I cannot imagine a more incompatible pair.

I digress that Cthulhu and horror is not my cup of tea. the idea for this thread came more from the thoughts I have been having about the mythos for a while now, especially since I have been writing a book and making a campaign that deals with these concepts.

4 hours ago, Stormkhan Cogg of Pavis said:

The problem I find is that there is nowadays* a demand for more! Got a superbeing able to wish people away? No probs. Let's have a superbeing that can wish planets non-existence. Planet-schmanet ... lets watch a film where the bad guy can just click his fingers and ...

Back in the day (1920s), the whole concept of super-Gods actually not caring what motivates us parasites was a chilling nihilism. It's what made Lovecraft scary! It was the concept of our insignificance. And this horror, this futility, is carried over into the game. It's like the whole "journey" narrative. Which is more the challenge - fighting against the odds or just saying "we can't win" and making our characters open a vein?

* My inner Miserable Old Git is being channeled here.

Lovecraft would honestly faint at the mere thought of a world like ours. By the book's description, Cthulhu's can barely take a boat to the face when the stars are right, how could he possibly stand up to nuclear weapons, railguns lasers, or antimatter? If that is the case, who is to say that Nyarlathotep and the rest of the old one gang can withstand the power of advanced technology, who is even to say that they are the only powers in the universe?

[Atgxtg]

30 minutes ago, Old Man Henerson said:

It is a wonder that Lovecraft made friends with Howard in the first place, I cannot imagine a more incompatible pair.

Well it's easier when it is a correspondence by mail.

30 minutes ago, Old Man Henerson said:

I digress that Cthulhu and horror is not my cup of tea. the idea for this thread came more from the thoughts I have been having about the mythos for a while now, especially since I have been writing a book and making a campaign that deals with these concepts.

It's not a bad take or idea. IMO, the Mythos, as presented by Lovecraft is pretty much unplayable as a RPG campaign. A One shot sure, but  not as a campaign. The heroes in the stories go through one adventure, and barely get through that. Some don't even make it. For instance the author in Call of Cthulhu is pretty much  toast after he writes down the story.

So any attempt to really run a campaign sort of necessitates weakening the Mythos. If you play it strictly as Lovecraft wrote it, investigators would not even last as long as they do now.

30 minutes ago, Old Man Henerson said:

Lovecraft would honestly faint at the mere thought of a world like ours. By the book's description, Cthulhu's can barely take a boat to the face when the stars are right, how could he possibly stand up to nuclear weapons, railguns lasers, or antimatter? If that is the case, who is to say that Nyarlathotep and the rest of the old one gang can withstand the power of advanced technology, who is even to say that they are the only powers in the universe?

Well, based upon what we've been told, he probably would just reform after such weapons.  Now if radiation bothers him or not could be an  issue. If not he becomes a walking Chernobyl. If it does bother him, then he might not be able to reform or go into a sleep until the radiation decayed enough for him to withstand it.  Which, for him, might not be a serious issue. 

Now maybe advanced technology would be effective against the more powerful Mythos beings, but that wouldn't necessarily be a good thing for humanity. It would be pretty easy for any of the space travelling races to chuck bit rocks at us from space and make us go the way of the dinosaurs. In fact, it would be very Lovecraftian if the impact that wiped out the dinosaurs was really some conflict between Mythos beings.  

 

So you can pull it in any direction you want.

 

 

[Old Man Henerson]

11 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

Well it's easier when it is a correspondence by mail.

Well, there you have it. I wonder if they each poked at each other's books, like if Howard asked if cthulhu was really that strong, and Lovecraft asked how Connan could stand seeing so many monsters and not go insane.

11 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

It's not a bad take or idea. IMO, the Mythos, as presented by Lovecraft is pretty much unplayable as a RPG campaign. A One shot sure, but  not as a campaign. The heroes in the stories go through one adventure, and barely get through that. Some don't even make it. For instance the author in Call of Cthulhu is pretty much  toast after he writes down the story.

So any attempt to really run a campaign sort of necessitates weakening the Mythos. If you play it strictly as Lovecraft wrote it, investigators would not even last as long as they do now.

Call of Cthulhu It does seem much more suited for one shot adventures. It is sort of surprising that it became so popular when you have to tone down the monsters like that to even run a campaign. Do most people play Call of Cthulhu as a one shot?

11 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

Well, based upon what we've been told, he probably would just reform after such weapons.  Now if radiation bothers him or not could be an  issue. If not he becomes a walking Chernobyl. If it does bother him, then he might not be able to reform or go into a sleep until the radiation decayed enough for him to withstand it.  Which, for him, might not be a serious issue. 

Now maybe advanced technology would be effective against the more powerful Mythos beings, but that wouldn't necessarily be a good thing for humanity. It would be pretty easy for any of the space travelling races to chuck bit rocks at us from space and make us go the way of the dinosaurs. In fact, it would be very Lovecraftian if the impact that wiped out the dinosaurs was really some conflict between Mythos beings.  

 

So you can pull it in any direction you want.

Yeah, I will see how the story goes,. The end goal for my game is for the PCs to gain superhuman psychic powers by taking the soul stones the children of the planet water who has ravaged the earth and gain enough power to face it head on in psychic combat.

Perhaps I will make a book about it or make a log on this site.

20 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

PM me an email address and I'll send you the  Superworld and RQ3 SIZ tables. I can even throw in a tool that coverts mass or weight to SIZ or vice versa. I find that helpful in working out the SIZ  value for exotic animals.

The formulas are:

kg = 2^(SIZ/8)*25 or SIZ = log(kg)/(log2)*8-log(25)/log(2)*8

lbs=2^(SIZ/8)*25 or SIZ = log(lbs)/(log2)*8-log(55)/log(2)*8

Expect slight differences due to the slight differences between converting from kilograms to pounds and for rounding off.

 

The  RQ3 SIZ table is the same as the one for Superworld, except that  RQ3 compresses all the lower weights into the SIZ 1-7 range , and transitions to  a linear progression of +1 SIZ = +1 metric ton at SIZ 100. But from SIZ 8-88 the values are the same  for both systems, and pretty much every related game from Chaosium until recently.

Thanks again for all the help. I will send you an email address and pick up the chart then. Thanks for everything. 😁

[Stormkhan Cogg of Pavis]

Bottom line (as I see it):

CoC Mythos is pretty stunning, even today, in horror tropes. I think it's telling that there's continuous attempts for Hollywood to 'own' it (vide the latest "Color Out of Space" with Nicholas Cage) but ... CGI cannot put over concepts that horror writers did, especially HPL. The Whisperer in The Dark was damn good, and scary to read, but even to someone who'd never read it before, the conclusion - while shocking - was hardly a surprise!

Games - one player or many - need to follow certain appeals in order to get players. A nihilistic attitude (we're all gonna die anyhow) doesn't encourage play. In an episode of Star Trek: Next Generation, Worf among others were upset that they hadn't won a competition. Riker pointed out that it wasn't winning but how you played the game. Worfs response? "If winning is unimportant, why keep score?"

As a Keeper, I want us all - both players and myself - to have a good time. That's the point of playing a game. If I have to dial back on the Mythos, to let players win "points", kill the bad guys and leave with a bit of sanity then so be it.

Frankly, I like the idea of a new approach: it's the investigators versus the cultists. The truth - if there is any - may be drip-fed to either side, making them more intent on their opposition ...

[Old Man Henerson]

4 minutes ago, Stormkhan Cogg of Pavis said:

Games - one player or many - need to follow certain appeals in order to get players. A nihilistic attitude (we're all gonna die anyhow) doesn't encourage play. In an episode of Star Trek: Next Generation, Worf among others were upset that they hadn't won a competition. Riker pointed out that it wasn't winning but how you played the game. Worfs response? "If winning is unimportant, why keep score?"

As a Keeper, I want us all - both players and myself - to have a good time. That's the point of playing a game. If I have to dial back on the Mythos, to let players win "points", kill the bad guys and leave with a bit of sanity then so be it.

Yeah. Playing and having a good time should always be the most important thing GMs and PCs focus on, even if you have to bend the rules a bit to achieve it. You are also right that movies are rather incapable of showing the true scope of cosmic horrors and powers, but that is what imagination is for!😁

10 minutes ago, Stormkhan Cogg of Pavis said:

Frankly, I like the idea of a new approach: it's the investigators versus the cultists. The truth - if there is any - may be drip-fed to either side, making them more intent on their opposition ...

That is a very interesting idea, though I am not sure how you would implement it. How would you do it?

[Stormkhan Cogg of Pavis]

Hear me out - I'm thinking on the hoof here ...

Use the same BRP game mechanics. That's a given. SAN is still important; after all, a human's imagination has far more impact on their state of mind than assumed. So ... we have investigators of the occult (as in the true definition of 'hidden knowledge') who start to see *gasp* an organised ... er ... organisation who do unspeakable things in the name of Great Cthulhu (Azathoth, Yog-Sothoth, whatever. Let's not get hung up about it.) Immediately the PCs have a foe, an organisation to fight against.

"Call yer Gods Daisy-Do BAD if you want but we'll take you down!"

Said Cultists (Yah Boo!) see the investigators as publicising stuff that, really, actually, aint good to publicise. Ice them thar nosey parkers!

The actuality - the Cultists being able to summon real, nasty, mind-bending crudmeisters - is missed by both. It's like both sides don't understand the entities that may be brought into the conflict. As said - what if the real, mind-numbing horrors actually notice the insects disturb their sleep/lethargy/indifference.*

* We've always assumed these entities actually want Earth. Why? What do they get out of it?

[Old Man Henerson]

23 minutes ago, Stormkhan Cogg of Pavis said:

Hear me out - I'm thinking on the hoof here ...

Use the same BRP game mechanics. That's a given. SAN is still important; after all, a human's imagination has far more impact on their state of mind than assumed. So ... we have investigators of the occult (as in the true definition of 'hidden knowledge') who start to see *gasp* an organised ... er ... organisation who do unspeakable things in the name of Great Cthulhu (Azathoth, Yog-Sothoth, whatever. Let's not get hung up about it.) Immediately the PCs have a foe, an organisation to fight against.

"Call yer Gods Daisy-Do BAD if you want but we'll take you down!"

Said Cultists (Yah Boo!) see the investigators as publicising stuff that, really, actually, aint good to publicise. Ice them thar nosey parkers!

The actuality - the Cultists being able to summon real, nasty, mind-bending crudmeisters - is missed by both. It's like both sides don't understand the entities that may be brought into the conflict. As said - what if the real, mind-numbing horrors actually notice the insects disturb their sleep/lethargy/indifference.*

* We've always assumed these entities actually want Earth. Why? What do they get out of it?

That is a cool story concept, neither the players nor the cultists know what the elder gods are up to, though the PCs want to stop them and the cultists want to gain power from them. 

In the game I am working on, the BBEG is a cosmic planet eating abomination that needs to feed off the Earth's life force to survive. However, instead of eating the world out right, it let its four children take control over the earth so that hey could learn to feed on it, like a mother cheetah teaching her cubs to hunt with the prey it caught. Once the children are feed, it will return to destroy the planet totally. 

The PCs, who are descendants of the humans who fled to Mars before the invasion, then have gain enough psychic power to fight and destroy these beings before the earth is lost. 

Edited November 27, 2019 by Old Man Henerson
Spelling

[Stormkhan Cogg of Pavis]

18 minutes ago, Old Man Henerson said:

That is a cool story concept, neither the players nor the cultists know what the elder gods are up to, though the PCs want to stop them and the cultists want to gain power from them. 

How very realistic, eh?

If the Elder Gods are so far from our comprehension, how can we comprehend their motives?

[Old Man Henerson]

1 minute ago, Stormkhan Cogg of Pavis said:

How very realistic, eh?

If the Elder Gods are so far from our comprehension, how can we comprehend their motives?

Another thing I just thought of, while we may or may not be able to know the thoughts and motives of the elder gods, their physical actions are clear enough for us to see.  Perhaps over time we could find patterns to their actions, and therefor, ways to potentially push them back.

[Stormkhan Cogg of Pavis]

This links back to another thread here - what is the point of the "Occult" skill? It may not tell us much of the roots of the Big Bastards but it tells us tales of their impact on us humans. It drops hints of weaknesses, it lets us know of 'conventions' that they may have to follow.

The occult (in CoC) gives us echoes of the Mythos ... which may be interpreted?

[Old Man Henerson]

16 hours ago, Stormkhan Cogg of Pavis said:

This links back to another thread here - what is the point of the "Occult" skill? It may not tell us much of the roots of the Big Bastards but it tells us tales of their impact on us humans. It drops hints of weaknesses, it lets us know of 'conventions' that they may have to follow.

The occult (in CoC) gives us echoes of the Mythos ... which may be interpreted?

If we can learn the rules they are bound by, we can then find ways to out maneuver them and gain the advantage over them.

[Old Man Henerson]

16 hours ago, Stormkhan Cogg of Pavis said:

This links back to another thread here - what is the point of the "Occult" skill? It may not tell us much of the roots of the Big Bastards but it tells us tales of their impact on us humans. It drops hints of weaknesses, it lets us know of 'conventions' that they may have to follow.

The occult (in CoC) gives us echoes of the Mythos ... which may be interpreted?

If we can learn the rules they are bound by, we can then find ways to out maneuver them and gain the advantage over them.

[Stormkhan Cogg of Pavis]

On 11/28/2019 at 2:10 PM, Old Man Henerson said:

If we can learn the rules they are bound by, we can then find ways to out maneuver them and gain the advantage over them.

Aaaaaand that's the whole point of playing the game? We struggle, stay alive, we sneak and snoop - we test what evil can do so that we can find ways of negating it.

[Lloyd Dupont]

I think there is a problem of expectation... In some other game forum I antagonised many people because I simply had different expectation...

Yes there might be a canon story, setting and expectation. But each GM's campaign is his own. And if he feel creative enough to come up with something different, so be it. But it is sometimes difficult for those GM with different point of view to ask advice of other who see things differently.... It's is often pointless and can easily be misinterpreted and get heated for no good reason...

Obviously the setting he envisaged is quite different from the mainstream and canon Cthulhu stories. This is a clear premise. So the challenge of the game might also be, in fact will also be, slightly different! 😜 

[Old Man Henerson]

5 hours ago, Stormkhan Cogg of Pavis said:

Aaaaaand that's the whole point of playing the game? We struggle, stay alive, we sneak and snoop - we test what evil can do so that we can find ways of negating it.

I could not have said it better myself. That is the great game in the end, the contest of who can best adapt and prevail.

4 hours ago, Lloyd Dupont said:

I think there is a problem of expectation... In some other game forum I antagonised many people because I simply had different expectation...

Yes there might be a canon story, setting and expectation. But each GM's campaign is his own. And if he feel creative enough to come up with something different, so be it. But it is sometimes difficult for those GM with different point of view to ask advice of other who see things differently.... It's is often pointless and can easily be misinterpreted and get heated for no good reason...

Obviously the setting he envisaged is quite different from the mainstream and canon Cthulhu stories. This is a clear premise. So the challenge of the game might also be, in fact will also be, slightly different! 😜 

I have seen other fourms where the nature and vulnerability of the mythos was hotly debated, but this fourm seems pretty open relaxed about debate. I have already learned all kinds of valuable advice here, so I have been very pleased by all these great replys.

My setting is more homebrew than cthulhu, I just added several mythos elements to the story. Maybe I will have to post a log on. The fourm when I begin. Although I am not sure weather it would be better in this sub fourm, or in the BRP section.

Edited December 3, 2019 by Old Man Henerson
Spelling

[Lloyd Dupont]

I am pretty sure many forum dweller such as I, look at forum status change and check all forums of interest (compulsively?)  

Edited December 3, 2019 by Lloyd Dupont

[Old Man Henerson]

25 minutes ago, Lloyd Dupont said:

I am pretty sure many forum dweller such as I, look at forum status change and check all forums of interest (compulsively?)  

Oh yeah, you and me both.😄