The History of the Troll Wars during the Inhuman Occupation

[Joerg]

I had a number of double-takes when reading the backstory and the research suggestions for The Smoking Ruins, so I went and had a look at the sources that I remembered.

Beware of background spoilers!

 

The most canonical source of all is the Guide, but while it gives the names Kajak-ab Braineater and Vamargic Eye-Necklace as examples for troll names, it doesn't tell their story during the Inhuman Occupation.

It does offer a very short local history of the setting (p.188):

Smoking Ruins: These ruins within an ancient Vingkotling hill fort are permanently thick with smoke. The smoke comes from a smoldering heap of troll corpses that has been burning for the last four centuries.

The best source for researching troll history is Uz Lore from RuneQuest Troll Pak. The text of this booklet doesn't change significantly between the second and third edition version, and some dating which doesn't quite agree with other sources (like a premature arrival of Belintar or an apparent confusion about the date of the arrival of the Closing), Uz Lore is the single most consistent telling of the history of Glorantha outside of the text in the Guide.

 

The Smoking Ruins inherits the relevant section from Uz Lore quite verbatim to begin with.

Uz Lore has two paragraphs omitted from the text in TSR, above and below the (slightly expanded and mildly rephrased) description of the two leaders of the southern (wood, i.e. Kethaelan) and eastern (mountain, i.e. Dagori Inkarth) troll factions.

Before presenting the two uz leaders, Uz Lore tells us

When the dragons slew all humans in the land of the trolls, other non-humans quickly moved in, fighting each other as usual. Many expeditions went out from there to raid human holdings.

However, the unity of trolldom was an illusion which was dispelled by their strength. The Dragon Pass region became a battleground for trolls fighting trolls.

Uz Lore remains silent about the conflicts between the eastern and the southern trolls, but mentions the third Darkness faction in the pass, essentially the Tusk Riders and their "half-troll" nobility:

Troll unity returned when the despised half-trolls of the Ivory Plinth attempted to seize all power with the help of non-troll allies. He was killed, and the trolls then began a campaign against all others.

This paragraph appears to be a bit jumbled, and fails to mention Karastand Half-Troll, the leader of the Ivory Plinth darkness tribe of whichever species they may have been.

In 1222, trolls met the enemy forces in battle and slaughtered them. Their victory seemed so complete that a great revel began, gorging on the foes and drinking intoxicating drinks This continued in a great victory debauch which was so intense that no one seemed to notice the small enemy force of beastmen who assembled and launched a surprise attack. The trolls were unable to respond, and thousands of them were killed. The corpses were heaped up in nearby ruins and set afire as an insult to their beliefs. Ever since that time the ruins have kept smoking, and are called the Smoking Ruins. Also, no troll has been able to contact their ancestors who were burnt there.

The Smoking Ruins as a land mark in southeastern Dragon Pass have been with us since the publication of Dragon Pass with the Wilms Church-based gameboard. (Not sure about the earlier WBRM map.)

 

My other main source for these events is an in-world document written by a Vendref living close to the place and probably fairly well informed about the Beastman version of events there. I am talking about Densesros the Scribe's collection of sources on the Third Age history of the region, aka the Composite History of Dragon Pass, in King of Sartar. (p.89 hardcover edition pdf:)

Troll Wars

During the peace enforced by the dragonewts the Uz streamed in from Dagori Inkarth. The two biggest swarms were led by Kajakab the Brain-eater, an Uz who came from the Castle of Lead in Shadows Dance; and Karastand Halftroll, who claimed human ancestry and imperial rights over Dragon Pass as heir to the Wyrms Minds Collective. Halftroll was also commander of the giant boar-trolls of the Ivory Plinth, who formed the nobility of the Uz in the Stinking Forest, and whose persistent war with the Newbloom Aldryami gave the pleasant woods their unpleasant name.

Probably about 1180 the two Uz races began their fighting, and at first the dragonewts were content to let them raze the ruins of the Wyrms Minds Collective. But when the Uz began raiding outside of Dragon Pass, threatening possible human intervention into the closed sacred grounds, the dragonewts were forced to react.

The two Uz armies united to fight the dragonewts, who were joined by the Aldryami and the Beastfolk. The battle is called “Uz Eat Dragonewts,” and was a great Uz victory followed by a typically grotesque and prodigious feast in troll style devouring the many dragonewt corpses. The dragonewts who had been killed, however, were only the Ralian dragonewts allies who had been sent ahead. The real Dragon Pass dragonewts fell upon the gorged and disgusting creatures and slew them all. This was probably around 1220 or so.

After that, the trolls remained in the shadows and hidden places, only rarely coming out in force again, but always remaining a menace.

Now this sounds pretty straightforward. A joint force of uz and tusk riders battles against the joint forces of dragonewts, aldryami and beastfolk. Triumphant win for the army of Darkness, debauchery, followed by torpor and being slaughtered themselves.

But somehow the third troll force from the south and its commander is absent from this story.

But let's take these texts apart, and rearrange them.

The Greylands region of Dragon Pass was the greatest troll stronghold. It lay between the Argan Argar Shadowlands and the Queendom of Dagori Inkarth. When the dragons slew all humans in the land of the trolls, other non-humans quickly moved in, fighting each other as usual. Many expeditions went out from there to raid human holdings.

During the peace enforced by the dragonewts the Uz streamed in from Dagori Inkarth. The two biggest swarms were led by Kajakab the Brain-eater, an Uz who came from the Castle of Lead in Shadows Dance; and Karastand Halftroll, who claimed human ancestry and imperial rights over Dragon Pass as heir to the Wyrms Minds Collective. Halftroll was also commander of the giant boar-trolls of the Ivory Plinth, who formed the nobility of the Uz in the Stinking Forest, and whose persistent war with the Newbloom Aldryami gave the pleasant woods their unpleasant name.

Kajak-ab Braineater was a Mistress Race troll who worshipped Kyger Litor and led the trolls from Dagori Inkarth. The other inhabitants of the pass often call her tribe the Mountain trolls. Her major opponent was Vamargic Eye-necklace who led the wood trolls from the south. He was most unusual, first because he was a great troll (who are almost always of low intelligence) and second, because his parents were both cave trolls. He worshipped Zorak Zoran.

Probably about 1180 the two Uz races began their fighting, and at first the dragonewts were content to let them raze the ruins of the Wyrms Minds Collective. But when the Uz began raiding outside of Dragon Pass, threatening possible human intervention into the closed sacred grounds, the dragonewts were forced to react.

Troll unity returned when the despised half-trolls of the Ivory Plinth attempted to seize all power with the help of non-troll allies. He [Karastand Half-troll] was killed, and the trolls then began a campaign against all others.

The two Uz armies united to fight the dragonewts, who were joined by the Aldryami and the Beastfolk.

In 1222, trolls met the enemy forces in battle and slaughtered them.

The battle is called “Uz Eat Dragonewts,” and was a great Uz victory followed by a typically grotesque and prodigious feast in troll style devouring the many dragonewt corpses. The dragonewts who had been killed, however, were only the Ralian dragonewts allies who had been sent ahead.

Their victory seemed so complete that a great revel began, gorging on the foes and drinking intoxicating drinks This continued in a great victory debauch which was so intense that no one seemed to notice the small enemy force of beastmen who assembled and launched a surprise attack. The trolls were unable to respond, and thousands of them were killed. The corpses were heaped up in nearby ruins and set afire as an insult to their beliefs. Ever since that time the ruins have kept smoking, and are called the Smoking Ruins. Also, no troll has been able to contact their ancestors who were burnt there.

The real Dragon Pass dragonewts fell upon the gorged and disgusting creatures and slew them all. This was probably around 1220 or so.

Following that, humans from the Shadowlands in the south rose against their leaders. Although the trolls kept most of their political power at first ,they were forced to include more and more humans from nearby regions in their councils, and this ultimately proved their undoing.

After that, the trolls remained in the shadows and hidden places, only rarely coming out in force again, but always remaining a menace.

[Uz Lore continues with Gerak Kag’s capture of Old Pavis]

About 1350, the troll legion was a regular part of the army of the kingdom of Tarsh. This was a mercenary unit, used mainly in guerilla operations but occasionally mustered en masse for battle.

This combination of the two texts appears to give a pretty concise picture, right?

At least this is where I came from when I read the historical background information in The Smoking Ruins.

 

The history as presented in the scenario makes yet another insertion into the story above.

 

 

Now entering heavy spoiler territory, discussing GM Info only:

Hence a little white space...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

While the scenario makes use of the Tusk Riders as a rumor and goes with the "small force of beastmen" version of Uz Lore (amending it to "Beastman cavalry", which I can only interprete as centaur forces - and apparently the author of the scenario too), it has a different premise.

Braineater’s trolls had been taking refuge inside the abandoned buildings after escaping from marauding Tusk Riders.

This doesn't sound like a convincing victory of the real trolls over the Half-troll at all. Rather the opposite. This sentence is the one that makes a synthesis of the TSR version with the previous synthesis quite problematic.

Vamargic ambushed Braineater’s forces while they were sleeping, exhausted.

Apparently the southern trolls had no trouble with Tusk Riders? I changed the sequence of these two sentences because the statement about Kajak--ab and her trolls changes the synthesized story above.

But then, there is a possibility that the surviving Tusk Riders, after losing their leader Karastrand, entered the service of the Dragonewts as mercenaries. I aim to make a synthesis of these three sources. The text in TSR is fine as far as local events are described (and surprisingly re-defined, but that's no worse than a HeroQuest Surprise, really). It only doesn't mesh with the greater picture of this periof of history.

Who cares? Every troll who has an ancestor burning away in those ruins. Or possibly a sibling - troll matriarchs can have very long lives.

Vamargic killed many of them in their sleep, and his victory was so complete that a huge revel began, gorging on Braineater’s remains and drinking intoxicating drinks. This revel continued in a great victory debauch that was so intense, no one noticed the small enemy cavalry force of Beast Men who, while tracking Vamargic to exact revenge, had assembled upon Orlanth’s Hill and the Valley floor.

Beastmen assembling on the Hill - fine.

But what would these Beastmen have to exact revenge for from Vamargic? The revenge motivation only makes sense if Vamargic (whether allied with Kajak-ab or not) had destroyed an allied force of dragonewts, aldryami and beastmen earlier on, as described in Uz Lore.

Let's conclude the slaughter:

From both sides they rode down into the settlement to launch their attack. Vamargic’s trolls were taken by surprise. It was a complete rout and Vamargic’s forces were slaughtered. The Beast Men left the corpses to rot, but before they left, they hired a nearby Grazer clan to help them erect a memorial to those Beast Men who died in the fight. Vamargic died with the rest of his band.

Trolls die in their sleep, or rudely awakened from it. Again, this time the other half.

The Beastmen don't set the troll bodies on fire, though. Dragonewts do, as per CHDP, but I won't discuss this interesting additional twist in detail.

By picking apart these text passages and inserting them into the previous text, I arrive at the following synthesis:

 

The Greylands region of Dragon Pass was the greatest troll stronghold. It lay between the Argan Argar Shadowlands and the Queendom of Dagori Inkarth. When the dragons slew all humans in the land of the trolls, other non-humans quickly moved in, fighting each other as usual. Many expeditions went out from there to raid human holdings.

One such target settlement was the abandoned Korolstead, later known as the Smoking Ruin.

During the peace enforced by the dragonewts the Uz streamed in from Dagori Inkarth. The two biggest swarms were led by Kajakab the Brain-eater, an Uz who came from the Castle of Lead in Shadows Dance; and Karastand Halftroll, who claimed human ancestry and imperial rights over Dragon Pass as heir to the Wyrms Minds Collective. Halftroll was also commander of the giant boar-trolls of the Ivory Plinth, who formed the nobility of the Uz in the Stinking Forest, and whose persistent war with the Newbloom Aldryami gave the pleasant woods their unpleasant name.

Kajak-ab Braineater was a Mistress Race troll who worshipped Kyger Litor and led the trolls from Dagori Inkarth. The other inhabitants of the pass often call her tribe the Mountain trolls. Her major rival  was Vamargic Eye-necklace who led the dark trolls from the south. He was most unusual, first because he was a great troll (who are almost always of low intelligence) and second, because his parents were both cave trolls. He worshipped Zorak Zoran, and his eye necklace was a sacred ritual object in his worship of Zorak Zoran. 

Probably about 1180 the two Uz races began their fighting, and at first the dragonewts were content to let them raze the ruins of the Wyrms Minds Collective. But when the Uz began raiding outside of Dragon Pass, threatening possible human intervention into the closed sacred grounds, the dragonewts were forced to react.

Troll unity returned when the despised half-trolls of the Ivory Plinth attempted to seize all power with the help of non-troll allies. He [Karastand Half-troll] was killed, and the trolls then began a campaign against all others.

The two Uz armies united to fight the dragonewts, who were joined by the Aldryami and the Beastfolk.

In 1222, trolls met the enemy forces in battle and slaughtered them.

The battle is called “Uz Eat Dragonewts,” and was a great Uz victory followed by a typically grotesque and prodigious feast in troll style devouring the many dragonewt corpses. The dragonewts who had been killed, however, were only the Ralian dragonewts allies who had been sent ahead.

There is a possibility that the surviving Tusk Riders, after losing their leader Karastrand, entered the service of the Dragonewts as mercenaries, and that these mercenaries had somehow escaped destruction in the battle.

Braineater’s trolls had been taking refuge inside the abandoned buildings after escaping from marauding Tusk Riders.

In an astonishing move of treachery, and against a female Mistress Race troll, Vamargic ambushed Braineater’s forces while they were sleeping, exhausted.

Vamargic killed many of them in their sleep, and his victory was so complete that a huge revel began, gorging on Braineater’s remains and drinking intoxicating drinks.

Their victory seemed so complete that a great revel began, gorging on the foes and drinking intoxicating drinks

Uz Lore's "the foes" doesn't exclude this reading of the events. The version in the scenario doesn't change the Uz Lore text, it only introduces a fact that was somehow omitted from the Uz Lore text (because unknown at the time of writing it, I suppose).

This revel continued in a great victory debauch that was so intense, no one noticed the small enemy cavalry force of Beast Men who, while tracking Vamargic to exact revenge, had assembled upon Orlanth’s Hill and the Valley floor.

This continued in a great victory debauch which was so intense that no one seemed to notice the small enemy force of beastmen who assembled and launched a surprise attack.

Again the modified text in the scenario is nearly identical to the Uz Lore version. The revenge bit and the local detail are additions.

The trolls were unable to respond, and thousands of them were killed.

From both sides they rode down into the settlement to launch their attack. Vamargic’s trolls were taken by surprise. It was a complete rout and Vamargic’s forces were slaughtered. Vamargic died with the rest of his band. The Beast Men left the corpses to rot, but before they left, they hired a nearby Grazer clan to help them erect a memorial to those Beast Men who died in the fight. Vamargic died with the rest of his band.

The text in the scenario adds a lot of detail, including the detail that the Beast Men did not start the fire, or even pile up the corpses.

And this was the Inhuman Occupation, no Grazers in Dragon Pass, yet - they entered 28 years after this battle, and Uz Lore gives a causal connection to the outcome of this battle for Gerak Kag's conquest Pavis. Without the Smoking Ruins incident, there would have been no disastrous battle of the Pure Horse Folk against the Uz, and no subsequent Battle of Alavan Argay.

Unbeknownst to the Beast Men, a small clutch of full priest dragonewts had been tracking the Beast Men, curious what had brought them out of Beast Valley. They observed Vamargic’s slaughter from Orlanth’s hilltop shrine and had been aware of the violation of Braineater’s forces enacted by Vamargic. Once the Beast Men left, these priests clambered down the hill and gathered most of the troll corpses, built pyres, and set them ablaze, enacting a ritual so the bodies would forever burn, the spirits trapped there

The corpses were heaped up in nearby ruins and set afire as an insult to their beliefs. Ever since that time the ruins have kept smoking, and are called the Smoking Ruins. Also, no troll has been able to contact their ancestors who were burnt there.

The real Dragon Pass dragonewts fell upon the gorged and disgusting creatures and slew them all. This was probably around 1220 or so.

This last sentence from CHDP can even be returned from being struck out as a very vague summary of the TSR and in that light also the Uz Lore text.

 

The big question that remains to be answered is: Why would the dragonewts (or the beastmen) care what Vamargic and his band had done to Kajak-ab and her band? Why would they regard that as evil? Good riddance of the first half of the foes of the dragonewts, so only the second half needed to be eliminated.

The favor of setting the corpses aflame doesn't really need to be understood by either troll or human, and other than GMsplaining the stuff after having played the scenario, I see no realistic possibility other than a few years' worth of Lhankor Mhy Reconstruction for the player characters to find out about this. Other than an incredulous "THIS is how dragonewts repay a favor?", I am happy to keep guessing at dragonewt motivations.

Having written a scenario with dragonewt agency myself, I can attest that having a logical reason for the dragonewt antagonists to do what they did makes writing the scenario easier, even when the logic only makes sense to the dragonewts.

 

But let's take a look at the claim that the non-humans made expeditions outside of the Inhuman Occupation.

Tusk Rider raids north of the Deathline into Holay and beyond must have been a common experience, no different from what they had done prior to the advance of the Invincible Golden Horde in the year of the Dragonkill. We don't have any information at all about the fate of the Orlanthi who lived north of the Crossline before Arim flees from Hwarin Dalthippa's expansion about a century after the Battle(s) of Korolstead. But judging from the description of the rites at the Ivory Plinth, the Tusk Riders would have wanted a steady flow of sacrifices, and trollkin sacrifices just don't signal respect to a deity. Elves and dark trolls would be acceptable, but hunting humans north of the Death Line and massacring them at the Plinth wouldn't have counted as a violation of the Death Line. They died reliably, after all, or possibly became Tusk Riders themselves.

South of the Crossline we have a strong resurgence of the Hendriki Kingdom, despite (or possibly because) of the loss of the territory north of the Crossline and a distinct population pressure in their lands. This leads to the Adjustment Wars against the Esrolian Grandmothers, which weakens the troll influence in Esrolia. With the abolishment of Arkat's Command by the Tax Slaughter, the Hendriki and their subject tribes had joined the tribes of Orlanthland in refusing the Shadow Tribute. It isn't clear whether the Dragonkill re-instituted that, or whether only the Volsaxi rebels against Belintar's governor king Andrin agreed to pay it again to gain Kitori support for their independence a century later. With the southern trolls weakened by the loss of Vamargic's army and its reputation, I don't see much incentive for King Finelvanth to bother paying the Shadow Tribute.

Edited December 23, 2019 by Joerg

[Joerg]

Speaking of the Shadow Tribute, what is the relationship between Vamargic Eye-Necklace and the Kitori? Were there Kitori in his force? Was his force significantly composed of Kitori? (But then, the TSR version changes his followers from Wood Trolls to Dark Trolls, indicating that there may have been trolls from the Shadow Plateau involved in his army.)

Also, did the Only Old One have any investment or say in these conflicts?

[scott-martin]

[This will strive mightily to respect SPOILERS but you have already been warned.]

51 minutes ago, Joerg said:

a few years' worth of Lhankor Mhy Reconstruction

Until today I dismissed the Troll Wars as a curiosity of the Inhuman Occupation or even a langatmiger Witz marking the site of some otherwise undocumentable grievance but you have opened my eyes.

There were always hints that Vamargic had crossed a moral line and required extreme punishment. The Uz Lore informant, better connected to troll sympathies, understands the punishment but not so much the nature of the transgression. The CHDP source takes a more newt-friendly perspective and uses terms like "grotesque" and "disgusting" for what in Uz Lore simply looks like a really great troll party, but is not concerned with the lurid detail of burning the bodies and damning the souls. Nobody will say what the trolls did that was so wrong.

I'd look first to the "intoxicating drinks" as part of the problem. This might be a euphemism for some unspeakable, delicious and intoxicating rite of troll cuisine too awful for them to talk about and the rest of us to even contemplate. Bad, bad, bad cannibal magic, even for dragonewts who normally consider a discarded body a cast more amusing than sacred. The new text casts this in a stronger moral light by calling it a "violation". . . desecration deserves desecration.

But if the southern swarm's crime wasn't eating dragonewt what was it? Vamargic was also always a boundary crosser because both parents were romal, bloodlines poisoned by chaos, and they don't normally breed great trolls, which only Cragspider figured out how to make. ZZ is also always suspect as a carrier of troll illumination. 

Greg provides a hint in WF 6: the southern nation were called the "wood" trolls because "among them were many Dark Elves." This can mean a lot of things in our modern understanding . . . "intoxicating" mushroom drinks, stunted poison trees, some kind of half-elf / half-troll cross paralleling the Aramites and making the forest stink, krjalki, "newbloom aldryami." We just don't know. They don't survive and people don't talk about them. But this was a rough crowd compared to Braineater's people from button-down Dagori Inkarth. 

Now OOO didn't seem to mind what Vamargic's people got up to at home (this swarm seemed to provide a significant part of his muscle), but he didn't seem to protest too hard when they never came back either. No big loss. The humans in the Shadowlands cheered.  

What do dragonewts want? WF 6 also dangles the detail in front of us that they had Karastrand killed . . . this might be the "forced to react" reference in Uz Lore. They were initially friendly with OOO or whoever was running the Shadowlands at the time. That person sent troops and healers to retrieve draconic assets all the way from "Shadows Dance," which is an interesting set up of north vs south troll rivalry to come. I think southern trolls had right of way here until Vamargic's people abused that privilege.

I suspect the resurgence of the Plinth was either a transitional stage in rehabilitating the Pass or another experiment that didn't really work out. They're evidently the people who stunk up the Stinkwood. This might have antagonized any "dark elves" in the region, who might or might not have been ended up in Korvan's carnivorous struggle in Cults of Prax a little later in the timeline. 

There might always be Blue Moon echoes at work in any troll/dragonewt interaction.

[scott-martin]

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

only the Ralian dragonewt allies

Unless we posit a western extension of the Dragonewt Road Network that no longer exists in that form, these people would have needed passage through the Shadowlands, right? That tells me OOO was in the loop or not in a position to do anything about it, or the story itself is disinformation for humans to spread.

If I had to render a hypothesis now I'd say a lieutenant had gone rogue with scavenged EWF secrets or worse and once he became a real diplomatic problem he had to be eliminated with clean hands. The UL informant tells a carefully sanitized version (Trollpak as a whole may be Shadowlands PR for a northern audience) designed to hide the embarrassing details while subtly cautioning ambitious trolls that there are worse things than death. The CHDP version contains even more careful silences. Putting them together as you do helps us approach what really happened and then a trip to the Ruins proper will confirm or deny.

People who like extra bizarre dragonewts can posit that the draconic forces latent in the Ruin required a certain type of sacrifice or even just a commemoration of magical processes, something between a slow-cook barbeque and a long-burning signal flare. 

The elves are mysteriously quiet in the EWF era except for the isolated Pavis influences (man and city). I'm starting to think that they were especially vulnerable to the Kill so their participation was more thoroughly eradicated, and then the Newbloom was ultimately collateral damage in what board games fans know as the Shadows Dance scenario. Are there any references to elves and newts being particularly friendly or unfriendly to each other? 

EDIT who is the mother Tree here anyway? RIST, right?

 

Edited December 23, 2019 by scott-martin

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, scott-martin said:

EDIT who is the mother Tree here anyway? RIST, right?

Wasn't there originally a Tallseed Forest covering much of Dragon Pass with just the Stinking Forest or isolated pockets like Tarndisi's Grove left in the late 3rd Age?

[scott-martin]

19 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Wasn't there originally a Tallseed Forest covering much of Dragon Pass with just the Stinking Forest or isolated pockets like Tarndisi's Grove left in the late 3rd Age?

I will always defer questions of prehistoric Saird to Jajagappa. And in that context it's worth lingering a bit on where we are in the fall of the northern forests. Rist is still a viable society but is already shrunken in the face of rising human power on the 1220 map. Looks like the inheritors of Eston in the Eston Wilds are technically calling the shots here . . . not sure how effective they are in this era. "Dense groves of trees cover hills and valleys haunted by elves, trolls, Tusk Riders, and bad memories."

[Joerg]

On 12/23/2019 at 9:47 PM, scott-martin said:

Until today I dismissed the Troll Wars as a curiosity of the Inhuman Occupation or even a langatmiger Witz marking the site of some otherwise undocumentable grievance but you have opened my eyes.

That goes to Chris Klug...

And to Ian Cooper's work in Dragon Pass: Land of Thunder which has an interesting synthesis of the old materials for the Smoking Ruins, too. (Should have looked that up when I made that first post in this thread...)

Quote

There were always hints that Vamargic had crossed a moral line and required extreme punishment.

Is it possible for a Zorak Zorani to cross any moral lines? Arkat became a Chaos monster and still is in good standing.

 

Quote

The Uz Lore informant, better connected to troll sympathies, understands the punishment but not so much the nature of the transgression.

The Uz Lore text doesn't mention any renewed hostilities after the two dark troll swarms had joined forces to deal with all the other powers in the pass. But then, this may be a secret not yet learned, or a secret suppressed.

 

Quote

The CHDP source takes a more newt-friendly perspective and uses terms like "grotesque" and "disgusting" for what in Uz Lore simply looks like a really great troll party, but is not concerned with the lurid detail of burning the bodies and damning the souls. Nobody will say what the trolls did that was so wrong.

Whatever it may have been the trolls had done prior to the Korolstead decisive battle. The location strikes me as highly disadvantageous for the Tusk Riders, unless they managed to secure a nearby fort as their sally port.

 

Quote

I'd look first to the "intoxicating drinks" as part of the problem.

Rather than intoxicating drinks, I would look for intoxicating food. Unfortunately, no dwarves were mentioned in either force. Aldryami are nice health food for the troll metabolism, but don't induce euphoria.

But consuming the flesh of a Mistress Race troll might be the ultimate meal for any descendant of Kyger Litor.

And it would have been the proper burial rite, which means that Kajak-ab's spirit should be available for contacting as there was no significant amount of body left for burning. Unless Vamargic did a different form of feeding...

Quote

This might be a euphemism for some unspeakable, delicious and intoxicating rite of troll cuisine too awful for them to talk about and the rest of us to even contemplate.

I have walked in Varmargic's shoes, so I might come across as defensive here, but from a troll perspective, the bad thing Vamargic did was what?

Betraying a former ally after a battle had been fought? Sure, that's not the gentlemanly way, but well within the expected behavior of a Zorak Zorani.

The Eye-Necklace magic? For this to be Vamargic's signature move and item, this must have gone on for ages - he wouldn't have been known by this name if the artifact had only been constructed at the ruins of Korolstead. Whether one regards this as a variant of a belt-full of Thanatari heads or the more powerful equivalent of a Ball of Tails.

 

 

Quote

Bad, bad, bad cannibal magic, even for dragonewts who normally consider a discarded body a cast more amusing than sacred. The new text casts this in a stronger moral light by calling it a "violation". . . desecration deserves desecration.

Eating your deceased rival will deprive her from having its kin feed on the corpse, but overall this is a gesture of respect in troll society.

Binding Kajak-ab's spirit into the Necklace was an act of pure retaliatory malice that would make any Zorak Zorani proud.

I think that it is possible that Vamargic decided to re-create his signature item around the spirit of his great rival Kajak-ab, and therefore started building it up anew.

The bit about "Vamargic still is missing a human eye" strikes me as extremely unlikely. Grazers, Vendref, Lunars and even Sartar and his followers have been active in the region.

Plus the fact that Korolstead is one of the places in the Dragon Pass game where one would go looking for the Puppeteer Troupe as allies (the Dragon Pass rules refer to the place as "the ruin in the Grazelands (hex 1325)".

 

Quote

But if the southern swarm's crime wasn't eating dragonewt what was it?

Being eaten by Darkness is the most natural thing that could happen to the dead bodies of a dragonewt. Preserving a piece of dragonewt for magical benefits on the other hand is a serious crime - against that individual. But can a single eye really have angered the newts enough to pile up thousands of trolls and set them alight?

Quote

Vamargic was also always a boundary crosser because both parents were romal, bloodlines poisoned by chaos, and they don't normally breed great trolls, which only Cragspider figured out how to make. ZZ is also always suspect as a carrier of troll illumination. 

Nobody normally breeds great trolls. The first ones appeared around 800 ST, and once the method had been established, I am not astonished that an enterprising clan mother set up some of her cave troll females to breed these useful speciment rather than having her precious daughters and nieces undergo the procedure.

 

Quote

Greg provides a hint in WF 6: the southern nation were called the "wood" trolls because "among them were many Dark Elves." This can mean a lot of things in our modern understanding . . . "intoxicating" mushroom drinks, stunted poison trees, some kind of half-elf / half-troll cross paralleling the Aramites and making the forest stink, krjalki, "newbloom aldryami." We just don't know. They don't survive and people don't talk about them. But this was a rough crowd compared to Braineater's people from button-down Dagori Inkarth. 

Dagori Inkarth has a sporewood area...

With their Kitori allies, the southern trolls would have been able to cultivate ergot. Suchara is the name of the rye goddess in Thunder Rebels. Dragon Pass - Land of Thunder places Suchara Valley (the lower portion of the Marzeel and formerly the Creek-Stream River - just east of Shadow Plateau. A coincidence, or are the southern trolls on acid?

Cross-species breeding: That's something nymphs do on a regular basis. Including hags... but I don't really see anything that would suggest a desire by either trolls or dark elves to create crossbreeds. Calling a dehori for propagation: sure. That's how Great Trolls are made, or great shamans like Pikat Yaraboom (another troll I got to play in a freeform).

Quote

Now OOO didn't seem to mind what Vamargic's people got up to at home (this swarm seemed to provide a significant part of his muscle), but he didn't seem to protest too hard when they never came back either. No big loss. The humans in the Shadowlands cheered.  

The Troll Woods are on the Crossline, and some sacred places for the Hendriki tribe may have ended up north of the line, too.

Vanntar aka Sun Dome County may have remained agricultural land for the Kitori, and north of them the ducks continued their horticulture, too. The giants of Red Cow Village continued their own agriculture, too. The Coming Storm has Willandring the smith as the last survivor of that giant population that seems to have been overcome early on in the Resettlement.

Both Kitori and Beastfolk claimed lands north and south of the Crossline. Beast Valley extends south almost to the walls of Helerdon (New Crystal City), although the southern portion may have been ceded to Belintar at the treaty of Stone Cross and only used as temporary pasture - but that is a century in the future of the events at the Smoking Ruins.

 

Quote

What do dragonewts want? WF 6 also dangles the detail in front of us that they had Karastrand killed . . . this might be the "forced to react" reference in Uz Lore.

What happened to Varankol the Mangler (possibly the first Aramite to become a "half troll")? Great Living Hero of the Machine Wars, and a champion of the EWF.

This entire half-troll spiel for the Tusk Riders has been a huge irritation to me. I doubt very much that there are Tusk Riders who have a valid claim to be descended from Kyger Litor.

 

Quote

They were initially friendly with OOO or whoever was running the Shadowlands at the time. That person sent troops and healers to retrieve draconic assets all the way from "Shadows Dance," which is an interesting set up of north vs south troll rivalry to come. I think southern trolls had right of way here until Vamargic's people abused that privilege.

The Only Old One had sent 40,000 troops to aid the dragonewts against the advance of the True Golden Horde. This may have included the Hendriki king and his priests and bodyguard, but a lot of that force would have been spearkin and Esrolians. To no avail, except perhaps to give the dragons some more time to arrive in the Pass.

 

Quote

I suspect the resurgence of the Plinth was either a transitional stage in rehabilitating the Pass or another experiment that didn't really work out.

It was quite the logical development. The Aramites are the biggest group of survivors of the Dragonkill this far northwest. The annual Tusker boar migrations that led to Oslir crossings being named Boar Ford and Sow Ford may have returned in the absence of human farmers on the way.

There was nobody left to hire them as mercenaries, so they had to turn to raiding their neighbors in order to maintain their standard of living. At least after looting the EWF era ruins was no longer productive.

But then, the EWF cities had already been ransacked in 1042, and again in 1120. Korolstead would have been no exception. By 1222, its main use would be as a shelter to enter.

 

Quote

There might always be Blue Moon echoes at work in any troll/dragonewt interaction.

But neither Kajak-ab nor Vamargic appear to have shown any such leanings, unless Vamargic's assault on Kajak-ab was using Blue Moon assassination magics.

 

On 12/23/2019 at 10:23 PM, scott-martin said:

Unless we posit a western extension of the Dragonewt Road Network that no longer exists in that form, these people would have needed passage through the Shadowlands, right? That tells me OOO was in the loop or not in a position to do anything about it, or the story itself is disinformation for humans to spread.

The OOO never had border controls on any of Esrolia's borders, and a troop of dragonewts could have passed through without too much excitement - even less if they made the trip as mercenary guards or similar.

 

Quote

EDIT who is the mother Tree here anyway? RIST, right?

Rist, Arstola and Poisonthorn are the closest well-documented elf colonies. Balazar had Eston at the Dawn, without any mention of a Great Tree, and Redwood had lost its Great Tree, too (but at least retained its stump). Neither the Valley of Flowers nor the Stinking Forest have any center.

On 12/23/2019 at 11:41 PM, jajagappa said:

Wasn't there originally a Tallseed Forest covering much of Dragon Pass with just the Stinking Forest or isolated pockets like Tarndisi's Grove left in the late 3rd Age?

The historical maps in the Guide placed the Tallseed forest in the north of Pent, where there is a huge region full of treestumps now.

 

[Bill the barbarian]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Is it possible for a Zorak Zorani to cross any moral lines? Arkat became a Chaos monster and still is in good standing.

 

I would say yes, by acting like the kind of human who would ask that question:)
In fact I would say that a ZZ would finding acting in a scott-martin like way would be crossing so many moral lines it would send him fleeing to mother-superior for correction immediately!

 

On 12/23/2019 at 1:47 PM, scott-martin said:

. This might be a euphemism for some unspeakable, delicious and intoxicating rite of troll cuisine too awful for them to talk about and the rest of us to even contemplate. Bad, bad, bad cannibal magic, even for dragonewts who normally consider a discarded body a cast more amusing than sacred. The new text casts this in a stronger moral light by calling it a "violation". . . desecration deserves desecration.

As Joerg says, Sandy Petersen (I believe) has a great write up of a troll being kept in a cell with a trollkin no food and tracking all the things the troll did eat (bedding, mattress, bed, buckets contents, bucket...) and we will close the shades on the moment there was nothing left to eat but the trollkin (remember trolls can eat ANYTHING) The description of the eating was that of a devotee on a pilgrimage!

Edited December 25, 2019 by Bill the barbarian

[Joerg]

On 12/25/2019 at 1:16 AM, Joerg said:

This entire half-troll spiel for the Tusk Riders has been a huge irritation to me. I doubt very much that there are Tusk Riders who have a valid claim to be descended from Kyger Litor.

Revisiting this thread, I may have to contradict myself here - the Tusk Riders do have an adoption rite, and they may have adopted trolls to the Cult of the Bloody Tusk, perhaps including Karastrand or a parent of his.

[dumuzid]

Lots of interesting stuff in this thread, I'm glad it was bumped. 

Because it seems like some here might find it interesting, I wrote up one potential resolution for the fates of Vamargic and the Smoking Ruin: the one reached by my own Runequest group.  It's a substantial story, so rather than post a wall of text I've attached this PDF.  I certainly hope @Joerg finds Vamargic's ending suitable.

 The Smoking Ruin Unity Battle.pdf