Questions Regarding The Great Pendragon Campaign

[Tizun Thane]

I agree. A 3d6 roll is enough. Loyalty (group) is especially useful, because any PK will always have a good excuse to roll for inspiration each year (Oh, my friend is in danger, etc.). It's gamebreaking.

In my game, except the round Table or very exceptionnal circonstances, I don't allow a rolling for loyalty (group). MY PKs are powerful enough without it.

[Atgxtg]

31 minutes ago, Tizun Thane said:

I agree. A 3d6 roll is enough. Loyalty (group) is especially useful, because any PK will always have a good excuse to roll for inspiration each year (Oh, my friend is in danger, etc.).

Not always, but it is pretty common.

31 minutes ago, Tizun Thane said:

It's gamebreaking.

Not really. At least not if the GM remembers the downside. Often the Loyalty (group) will pull the PKs to act in ways contrary to other Loyalties such as Loyalty (Lord). In my campaign the younger members of the group suffered somewhat because they were known for Loyalty to the group, but not for their loyalty to the Count (their liege). So the second generation of PKs never had the strong connection to the Count that their fathers did, didn't get the same perks, got more of the lousy duties and so on.

A high loyalty to someone else is always a concern for a liege, especially if it is between a group of knights. The possibility always exists that should the liege act against one member of the group for some reason, the rest of the group might side with him and even oppose the liege. 

Another thing to remember is that the inspiration bonus is free. It requires a roll, that could lead to a character becoming disheartened or mad, and is tied to accomplishing a specfic goalic goal that the player has to state, and this can cresict the PKS actions and even lead to shock and a loss of attributes. 

I've seen PKS save their friends before their liege on the battlefield, stick around in a hopeless situation to try and rescue a group member, go on adventures that they didn't want to, get inspired to protect someone who got killed by an arrow on the next round, go mad and charge the enemy singlehanded, and countless other mishaps. So it's a double edged sword. In onbe extreme case the group's holding got attacked by a faerie army mostly because one PK wanted to marry a faerie woman and Loyaty (Group) drew the rest of the PKs and then the Group into the adventure, escalating the conflict from single combat to army vs. army. The Count had to bail them out and they still haven't made up for that fiasco. If their fathers weren't trusted officers those PKs would still be on garrison duty.

[Username]

15 hours ago, creativehum said:

Give the choices and possibilities of shifting loyalties the PKs will face through the campaign have people found any problems with the games fracturing as PKs split apart. I'm not concerned with OOC arguments... but simply PKs splitting up or becoming enemies. My assumption is that the game will run smoother and easier if the PKs are working as a band of knights or as a fellowship. (King Arthur Pendragon materials through the decades that suggest such "Fellowships" seem to support this!)

 

13 hours ago, Morien said:

While I have a very limited sample size, obviously, I would say that it matters a lot how well the players know one another

Just to let you know, I've attempted to run the GPC twice now. First time we made it to the crowning of Arthur (Ended because of a work related move on my part) this time were going into 517. This one has legs though and will probably go the whole way. We're approaching the one year mark (next month) and are probably around session 45 or so

I've ran some one shots or short games in Pendragon too. I've probably had 25-30 different players at this point. The most I've had at the table at once for this campaign was 8. Though this campaign has seen 10 different players  During these games, I've probably seen 75 characters that were played for more than 2 sessions. I made strong recommendations for everyone to be in Salisbury and they went through the same initial experiences in both campaigns. I say all of this to say I have a decent sample size ranging from veterans of RPGs to totally new players. I've even had a few players first RPG experience been Pendragon.

My experiences have been similar to Morien's. Groups who have played together longer tend to stick together by habit, but they also tend to implode in spectacular ways akin to Morien's. We had one half of the party side with the Cornish against the party and Nanteleod. We have had similar interparty conflicts happen a few (I think 2 other) times. However, I give my players plenty of rope and they routinely hang themselves.

However, the trait and passions tend to lead to many what I'll call minor divisions. Conflicts over competing love passions or pursuing the same wealthy heiress. Conflicts over what path to choose or who to trust. Conflicts over why they should let the guy with a 19 Honest come with them to rush through the lands of three counties when their all allied with their enemies. The traits and passions create many inter-personal conflicts and crazy party dynamics and fights. We had a character with a notable Cruel and the players were struggling to deal with him. 

Thanks to that and story events, we've probably had 2-3 characters written out of the story in this run of the GPC. Far less than the number who've died, but still it happens. And that's one of my favorite parts of Pendragon. Characters can come and go. They can return triumphantly or devastated. Things happen and the group might divide. You could try to follow both or someone might have to bring in their backup, but if they live, like in a soap opera or a Terminator movie, they'll be back. It's fine, Pendragon, I think, should be a game that teaches people that it's ok to let go. Eventually all characters are lost. Such is life.

Finally, my group has a loyalty group passion. They've instituted requirements to join (which I was in favor of. It's like an initiation rite for new members to prove they have staying power.) We set the passion as 3d6+2. I would go up to 3d6+4/5 at maximum, but no higher. 3d6+2 usually gives usable, but risky passions. In my experience, players will take the leap with a 13-14, but lower than that and it may as well not exist. Definitely don't raise it yearly though or even give automatic checks. They'll usually be in the group together and working towards group goals, so there is conceivably frequent times when the passion could be applicable.

[stryker99]

17 hours ago, creativehum said:

As for Anarchy, that's where I expect things will get janky for the players and their choices for all the reasons you describe.

We just started the Anarchy last session, 4 out of 6 PKs IMMEDIATELY bent the knee to Countess Ellen. The other 2 were considering Sir Lycas' argument that the dangerous times required the leadership of a man, not a woman, but the fact that the one PK with much higher glory was the first to swear loyalty kind of nipped that one in the bud...

More surprising was how sympathetic the PKs found Kind Cerdic. They are currently ACTUALLY considering counseling Ellen to swear fealty to Wessex. I didn't expect that.

Regarding Sword Lake: The giant laid a couple PKs low (unconscious), but they used wolfpack tactics where the ones the giant was facing fought defensively while others attacked unopposed. I played the giant as big and dumb: he focused entirely on whichever knight wounded him last, they quickly figured out to manipulate him to their advantage and took him down. It was an epic fight. The nukalavee was a massive anti-climax, there was no threat there whatsoever. IIRC they dropped him in one round (he has really crappy armor).

[Atgxtg]

16 minutes ago, stryker99 said:

More surprising was how sympathetic the PKs found Kind Cerdic. They are currently ACTUALLY considering counseling Ellen to swear fealty to Wessex. I didn't expect that.

Yeah, how did that happen? Did you players forget about Vortigern the tyrant and the Night of Long Knives?

[Morien]

7 hours ago, Username said:

My experiences have been similar to Morien's. Groups who have played together longer tend to stick together by habit, but they also tend to implode in spectacular ways akin to Morien's.

Actually, what I meant to convey was almost direct opposite to this...

A group that has played together for a long time, being friends outside of the game as well, tends to have more experience with one another and with the hobby in general as well. Thus, even if the PKs work at cross-purposes now and again, there is a more of 'hey, it is just roleplaying, he is not a conniving bastard, really' -attitude.

A group that only connects via the game, and possibly have very different RP backgrounds (both in style and in amount of experience), has the potential to explode much more easily. After all, if your background is more 'my group vs. the world', and another player's is more drama school, then once those expectations collide, it might easily lead to 'you rat bastard, how could you do that, I am out' -situation.

I was actually a player in a GURPS campaign where one new-to-the-group player took a huge enemy disadvantage (an adult red dragon, hunting his character over some destroyed dragon eggs or something), after the GM had repeatedly warned him not to do that. It was the start of the campaign, and the premise was that we had all been hired by this noble to crew a skyship, so all the characters were strangers to one another. The character in question spent the whole first session belittling the other characters and insulting them and their beliefs. And then the dice came up as 'enemy appears' (in GURPS, you roll randomly to see if your enemy appears during the session in some way) for him and the red dragon showed up, flying towards the skyship to which it had magically tracked (there were spells for that, as well as counterspells, but when you are facing a frigging adult dragon, you'd better be an archmage level yourself) the culprit.

The dragon arrived and demanded to fight the murderer. I ought to mention that the dragon was quite sporting about it, explaining that it had no beef with the other folks on the skyship, just the murderer of its children (after all, none of the other PCs had an enemy disadvantage). So yeah, all the other character basically took a step back and told the dragon to have fun, not our problem to fight the battles this insufferably smug, insulting so-and-so had brought upon himself. The character died after a brief chase, and the player quit and walked out, quite upset at the GM for letting the disadvantage to influence the game and at the other players for not backing his character up.

[Morien]

9 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

I'd advise against raising it automatically each year or after adventures

Just to clarify, I was speaking of the initial modifier before the Passion is rolled, not the actual Passion in play. Although I tend to be generous with checks, the Passion only gets checked when it is used (not necessarily for Inspiration).

I would also cap the Passion modifier around +6, and I don't think I would actually let a mere acquaintance count. Adventuring and fighting as a team, sure, I would let them accumulate some initial bonus modifier that way. So it has become a bit of a balancing act, when do they want to roll? Go for it immediately means that the loyalty will be low and less useful, but waiting on it means that they don't have that Group passion to fall back on, which has bitten them in the backside a couple of times with the new PKs joining in, as in "Nope, you can't use that passion, since X is not part of it."

[Atgxtg]

Just now, Morien said:

Just to clarify, I was speaking of the initial modifier before the Passion is rolled, not the actual Passion in play. Although I tend to be generous with checks, the Passion only gets checked when it is used (not necessarily for Inspiration).

Oh, okay, that's better.

Just now, Morien said:

I would also cap the Passion modifier around +6, and I don't think I would actually let a mere acquaintance count. Adventuring and fighting as a team, sure, I would let them accumulate some initial bonus modifier that way. So it has become a bit of a balancing act, when do they want to roll? Go for it immediately means that the loyalty will be low and less useful, but waiting on it means that they don't have that Group passion to fall back on, which has bitten them in the backside a couple of times with the new PKs joining in, as in "Nope, you can't use that passion, since X is not part of it."

I could see that. With my PKs, since their fathers (and now grandfathers) were members they inherited the passion at chargen. 

[Morien]

48 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

With my PKs, since their fathers (and now grandfathers) were members they inherited the passion at chargen. 

That is a different kettle of fish from ours, for two reasons:

1) It is not a formal order, but an informal fellowship amongst individuals, so it wouldn't be inherited anyway.

2) We don't allow 'cloning', i.e. the statistics, traits and passions are not just inherited by the sons. They do get a bonus if they choose to pursue the famous traits and passions of their fathers, though, so there is a 'family resemblance' if the Player wants it.

[creativehum]

4 hours ago, stryker99 said:

More surprising was how sympathetic the PKs found Kind Cerdic. They are currently ACTUALLY considering counseling Ellen to swear fealty to Wessex. I didn't expect that.

Desperate times... desperate measures!

(I'm sure I'll have more questions when I have time to dig back into the GPC and read a few more yers!)

[Tizun Thane]

15 hours ago, stryker99 said:

More surprising was how sympathetic the PKs found Kind Cerdic. They are currently ACTUALLY considering counseling Ellen to swear fealty to Wessex. I didn't expect that.

I like it very much. Cerdic is the son of Vortigern, and have strong claims to be king of Logres or High King.

I suppose Cerdic would want a marriage with Ellen to seal the deal (or between his son and young Jenna), and full hommage. You have to consider if Cerdic is sincere or not about his dream to unify Saxons and Kymrics in equal terms. Is he honorable (in a saxon way), or a traitorous bastard like his father?

[Username]

My players thought briefly about sympathizing with him. They needed a king and they thought he was the best option since Nanteleod didn't have much presence at the time. But, ultimately the 4d6+1 Hate Saxon passion Salisbury knights get and the death of some allies at Saxon hands made the players force their own hands to act like quasi-irrational psychopaths their nearly all notable passions said they were.

[Atgxtg]

14 hours ago, Morien said:

That is a different kettle of fish from ours, for two reasons:

1) It is not a formal order, but an informal fellowship amongst individuals, so it wouldn't be inherited anyway.

THat's how it started with the PKS in my camapign, but they managed to help stop a plague, and got noticed by the King and formally recognized as Kinghtly Order. THere were only four member to start with, and so far memeber peaked at a baker's dozen.

14 hours ago, Morien said:

2) We don't allow 'cloning', i.e. the statistics, traits and passions are not just inherited by the sons. They do get a bonus if they choose to pursue the famous traits and passions of their fathers, though, so there is a 'family resemblance' if the Player wants it.

I don't allow cloning either, but do use the 1d6 per 4 point of the father, the idea being that they would have an influence of the son. Overall I think the effect would be similar to the bonuses you listed earlier. 

[Atgxtg]

1 hour ago, Tizun Thane said:

I like it very much. Cerdic is the son of Vortigern, and have strong claims to be king of Logres or High King.

Not all that strong. Votigern got the title by murdering the previous two High Kings, stole lands, reorganized and relocated tribes, executed kings, and gave away half of Britian to Saxons. HE was so hated that many fled into exile and begged Aurelius to come back, which he eventually did. And Cerdic grandfather, Hengest is one of the few men whose memory was hated more that Vortigern's. 

Rather than being sympathetic, I think my players are going to have a hard time just being civil with the guy. 

 

Of course, I'm actually running my group through Vortigern';s reign so all those bad events are things that happened in play and not just stuff that happened to to granddad on the family history tables. My PKs rebelled against Vortigenr and went into exile. 

 

1 hour ago, Tizun Thane said:

I suppose Cerdic would want a marriage with Ellen to seal the deal (or between his son and young Jenna), and full hommage. You have to consider if Cerdic is sincere or not about his dream to unify Saxons and Kymrics in equal terms. Is he honorable (in a saxon way), or a traitorous bastard like his father?

Or even worse, like his Grandfather. Hengest was worse than Vortigern and  the man responsible for the Night of Long Knives. 

That's the thing with Cerdic, his claim to the throne is based on his ties to two of the most hated men in memory. 

 

[creativehum]

Questions: 

After the battles and events in 491 there are, as the text notes, many social events that can make the year spill over several sessions as the PKs hobnob with lords, knights, and ladies. The GM has opportunity to introduce any NPCs he wants to the PKs to see, meet, or interact with.

We have Madoc's Funeral, Uther's Wedding, and the Winter Court.

In particulate the text notes: "In such a crowded social milieu, Gamemasters ought to prepare for many bouts of social interaction between player knights and allies or rivals, and/or with suitable ladies."

What sorts of "preparation" have GMs done? Given the upcoming events are there any NPCs it would be useful to introduce? Or types of NPCs (the text suggests throughout these gatherings romantic rivals, possible romances, and so on.)

Also, Earl Roderick hosts the funeral as it is near Stonehenge. I assume Uther hosts his wedding at his own castle? Or somewhere else?

Thanks!

 

Edited January 29, 2020 by creativehum

[Atgxtg]

 

22 minutes ago, creativehum said:

Questions: 

What sorts of "preparation" have GMs done? Given the upcoming events are there any NPCs it would be useful to introduce? Or types of NPCs (the text suggests throughout these gatherings romantic rivals, possible romances, and so on.)

Pretty much what you are doing now by thinking about what the various NPKs are doing at this time. Work out what Uther, Roderick, Ulfius, etc. etc. are up to and how that will affect the PKs.  Then maybe brainstorm a little to see what sort of side adventures that could lead to for the player knights. For instance, maybe Count Roderick sends them off to get something to make preparations for the funeral. For instance, it would seem likely that only Merlin could move the stones so maybe they need to find him?

22 minutes ago, creativehum said:

Also, Earl Roderick hosts the funeral as it is near Stonehenge. I assume Uther's wedding takes place at his castle? Or somewhere else?

I'd think someplace else. I mean would you want to get married at the same time and place where you are burying your only son? That would pretty much put a damper on the wedding. Not to mention putting a major strain on Roderick's resources.

I suggest the wedding happen later/elsewhere say at Carleon or Camelot or London, and is much more upbeat than the funeral. 

 

 

[creativehum]

40 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

I'd think someplace else. I mean would you want to get married at the same time and place where you are burying your only son?

So there is no further confusion, I meant that Uther might host the wedding at his own castle... not Roderick's. (I have edited my previous post to make this clear.)

I like the suggestion of London. It is a chance for the PKs to go see "city life" and have adventures there. (The GPC suggests doing this so the PKs/Players get to experience the difference between the "dirty city" and their own lives out in their estates.)

[creativehum]

Question about the format for the years. As an example

493 offers us this passage:

Quote

Christmas Court

Royal Court: The king’s court is very gloomy. The queen seems to be holding herself apart from the king.(Does she care about Uther, really?)

Salisbury: The earl is worried. Uther is ill, and the condition of the king has affected the entire land of Logres. Octa and Eosa are marching south.

I assume that Stafford is offering details that might come into play depending on where the PKs end up for the Winter Court or what news they might catch with Intrigue.

It is not expected that the knights will travel from one court to the other. He is offering more information than might be played out, allowing the book to provide info that might come into play depending on circumstances, yes?

Edited January 29, 2020 by creativehum

[Atgxtg]

2 hours ago, creativehum said:

So there is no further confusion, I meant that Uther might host the wedding at his own castle... not Roderick's. (I have edited my previous post to make this clear.)

Oh, sorry, I took that differerntly. 

Quote

I like the suggestion of London. It is a chance for the PKs to go see "city life" and have adventures there. (The GPC suggests doing this so the PKs/Players get to experience the difference between the "dirty city" and their own lives out in their estates.)

Yeah, plus if they go to London they can stop at ol' rundown Camelot on the way -allowing the GM to play up the contrast. In some ways Winchester/Camelot is a physical presentation of how the kingdom is doing. It's a run down city during the early years, then falls into Saxon hands during the Anarchy, is transformed into the jewel of Britain during Arthur's reign, and then falls to the Saxons again after Arthur's passing.

I occasionally send my PKs through to show them how run down it is., a present it like a high crime slum.

Edited January 29, 2020 by Atgxtg

[Atgxtg]

28 minutes ago, creativehum said:

Question about the format for the years. As an example

493 offers us this passage:

I assume that Stafford is offering details that might come into play depending on where the PKs end up for the Winter Court or what news they might catch with Intrigue.

It is not expected that the knights will travel from one court to the other. He is offering more information than might be played out, allowing the book to provide info that might come into play depending on circumstances, yes?

Yup, although such a trip could happen if there is a reason. But I think it's mostly to set the mood and foreshadowing Uther's illness and decline in the coming years. 

[creativehum]

Well, I have finished reading the years and Adventures of the Uther Perod.

i have to say: when I flipped through the book it all seemed too much and overwhelming. "Ther is no way I'll keep this all straight!" I thought to myself.

But reading it page by page, year by year, i found the book both compelling and clear. The big takeaway for me is this is something i can't wait to run for my players. Not on a conceptual or abstract level of "I always love running Pendragon and the GPC is Greg's crowning achievement" but rather "Tnis thing rocks and will be a blast to play."

The real work for the GM is to make sure all they "history" and events don't swamp the personal live of the Player Knights. The Introduction of the GPC makes it clear that the focus of the game should be the PKs and their lives. But with so much compelling material to share with the PKs I could see that getting lost!

The trick, I think, is to use all the techniques from the Introduction and the Adventures at the end of the Uther Period chapter as a foundation for building the game. Almost every year has plenty of space to introduce adventure, conflicts, and NPCs that focus on the PKs. The job of the GM Is not to let the Events in the GPC run roughshod over him but take each year apart before play, find those gaps, make sure that is the focus of play, and then be prepared to introduce the scripted elements around the PK focused material. 

For example, the setup for Merlin roping the PKs into helping him steal the baby is that the PKs are riding Salisbury on patrol. Well, there are several Adventures at the back of the chapter that focus on riding patrol. But the book also tells us to make sure to build NPCs as recurring adversaries. By this point in the campaign the PKs should have a couple of grudge matches going on with Saxons, romantic rivals, or other clans. By first setting up an adventure with a recurring nemesis we build out the tales of the PKs. But we also provide surprise when that is over and Merlin arrives and requests aid. We thought the night was going to be about patrolling-- and now here's Merlin!

The same holds true for the Feast after The Battle of  St. Albans. The PKs will be surrounded by countless knights and many ladies. All sorts of conflicts can either reach a head -- or perhaps even shut down in celebration of the victory. A full hour or more of roleplaying can take place focused on the PKs outside the hall. And then, when the PKs are fully caught up in their own drama... the screaming  starts.

Most years have theses spaces and gaps that Stafford clearly left for the GM to use for the PCs, folding in NPCs, rising tensions, and fallout and escalation from the years before. There are only ten years, which will come out to about 12-15 sessions. Meaning there really won't be time for them to feel repetitive or abritrary. If handled correctly each one will be an encounter the Players will be eager to engage with since it will advance or raise the stakes for the personal stories of their knight's.

i'm really looking forward to digging into the Anarchy Phase.

 

Edited January 30, 2020 by creativehum

[stryker99]

On 1/28/2020 at 5:44 PM, Atgxtg said:

Yeah, how did that happen? Did you players forget about Vortigern the tyrant and the Night of Long Knives?

Exactly! I asked my wife (one of the PKs) about this and she said I played Cerdic as very sympathetic. This was intentional as that's how I read this piece of the GPC: Cerdic puts on a show of his Briton manners, throwing a very British feast, and parading in front of them a contingent of knights who butter up Cerdic's credentials. I even gave the PKs intrigue rolls to realize he was putting on quite a show for them. One of the PKs even brought up the fact that Uther has an heir out there somewhere, they were put on trial for helping Merlin kidnap him! But still, they were considering backing Cerdic...

We are playing this out next session. I plan to have Sir Leo argue Cerdic's villainous heritage if they actually counsel Ellen to pay homage to Cerdic (many thanks to Atgxtg for providing the details of his argument against Cerdic). Even if the PKs stick to this I am thinking Ellen would not listen to them and refuse to bow to Cerdic. However this feels like it is stealing players "agency" by not allowing them to influence the direction of the campaign. I imagine it's quite likely they will listen to Sir Leo's moral arguments and wise up, but I need to be prepared if they stick to it and push for homage to Wessex. Any input as to how to handle it if they do is welcome!

[Morien]

1 hour ago, stryker99 said:

I imagine it's quite likely they will listen to Sir Leo's moral arguments and wise up, but I need to be prepared if they stick to it and push for homage to Wessex. Any input as to how to handle it if they do is welcome!

Let them. If they are pushing the 'ally to Wessex, all hail King Cerdic, the Rightful High King' despite getting reminded of Cerdic's father and grandfather being the worst in living memory, let them.

In our campaign, the PKs allied with Cornwall, and kept friendly relations with Wessex from the get-go. End result, they ended up fighting against Ulfius and then Nanteleod, rather than against the Saxons. And of course they ended up on the wrong side of history with Arthur, until after the Battle of Terrabil.

So if your PKs submit Salisbury to Cerdic (the marriage between Cynric and Jenna would be the best option, since Cerdic himself is a) older and b) it would make Cynric very very jealous of any half-brothers he might have), then they might actually do reasonably well out of the Anarchy, save for likely getting raided by fellow Cymri and having to fight against Nanteleod. The addition of Salisbury Knights probably allows Cerdic to crush Port (it did in our campaign), adding Port's warriors to his cause. This stronger Wessex might actually be a much stronger player pre-Badon, too, maybe even contesting Aelle's claim to the title of Bretwalda. After Badon, there would be a reckoning, but Arthur tends to be pretty merciful: he might not punish the PKs' heirs (I would expect the PKs to die at Badon, you see) too harshly; after all, they are fellow Cymri. It is pretty noteworthy that Arthur apparently doesn't kill Cerdic, as he is said to be taken as a prisoner and then he vanishes from GPC. Dies in comfortable captivity, would be my guess.

[creativehum]

1 hour ago, stryker99 said:

Cerdic puts on a show of his Briton manners, throwing a very British feast, and parading in front of them a contingent of knights who butter up Cerdic's credentials.

What I love about this is it drives directly at one the thematic threads of the campaign: Are you a good knight simply because you do the rituals well? 

The answer is obviously no. But still, Mordred years later will assume that if surrounds himself with the object and people (like Guinevere) that surrounded his uncle, he'll be on track to be the High King. 

It's a lesson the PKs might have to have knocked into their heads. Like @Morien I say loosen the reigns and let them go for it. 

However, I would let the fallout happen relatively quick. The game, the book keeps telling us, involves consequences from choices. By marrying Countess Ellen off to Cerdic they are doing The Wrong Thing. They have fallen for manners over character, and I would let let Cerdic keep the manners but reveal his true character. Let him be horrible. They'll be near him. They'll hear him. They'll see him. They'll be ordered to be party to his plans.

If he is a horrible man (and everyone here seems to think he will be) then let him be such a man...

And then let the Player Knights figure out what to do once they realize the error their ways! Do they flee? Steal away with Countess Ellen? Have they sworn loyalty to him? Will they conspire to kill their lord?

Let it all rain down on them after they have made their choices. Make it have been a terrible choice. And then see what they do after that!

[Morien]

29 minutes ago, creativehum said:

If he is a horrible man (and everyone here seems to think he will be) then let him be such a man...

See the conquest of the Isle of Wight. Something the PKs will be participants in, if they join Cerdic swiftly enough. If that doesn't make them take a good look at themselves and ask "Are we the baddies?" then nothing will. They might double down and claim it just; times are hard and the Wightians refused to bend a knee. Vae Victis. Let that be a lesson to all others. That is certainly how I would expect Cerdic to play it.

Then again, it is possible that with Salisbury switching, Wight might follow suit rather than resist (embassy mission for the PKs, to try and convince Wight to see the light, with a chance to introduce some damsels to be distressed later if they fail?). Butterfly effect from changing 'history'. And maybe the PKs are encouraging Cerdic to raze the hated Levcomagus to the ground instead...

EDIT: I misremembered slightly and confused Cerdic's attack on Isle of Wight with Caedwalla's, almost two centuries later. Still, you could play Cerdic's slaying of all the nobles (in GPC) as harsh as you want to: is it all noble men (somewhat justified, although the method of execution might also show off a cruel streak if need be) or is it women and children too (clearly in the baddie territory)?

EDIT2: Cerdic's write-up in GPC actually portrays him as a reasonably level-headed guy. His only 16+ baddie trait is Arbitrary at 18, and a goodie trait of Valorous at 18. He does have leanings towards Cruel and Proud, but also Chaste, Generous, Pious and Temperate. No Passions at 16+. Frankly, other than the high Arbitrary*, he doesn't seem all that bad. Frankly, Uther's high Lustful & Reckless and tendency to Deceitful, Suspicious and Hate Saxons might strike some as worse traits and passions to have. And I would very much argue that Uther's Arbitrary ought to be higher than 9, but that is an argument for another time.

* And nothing wrong with high Arbitrary as long as you stay on his good side; Arbitrary doesn't mean that he is a maniac flipping from liking you to hating you depending which way he got up in the morning, just that he makes his decisions based on something else than the concept of justice and laws of the land, such as how much he likes you.

Edited January 30, 2020 by Morien