Rukbat Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 This is my first post here, so I'll start by saying hello! ☺️ I am a long-time RPG GM and I'm currently learning Runequest Glorantha from scratch, with a view to run a game soon. I decided to run a simple one-on-one combat scene between Vasana (without her bison, or magic, to keep it simple) and a wolf to see the rules of combat in action, and hit a snag right at the first roll, when the wolf got a critical hit with its Bite. I could not find any mention anywhere in the boxed set of what special damage would be appropriate for the Bite. After giving it some thought, I decided I would count it as Slashing Damage. When I mentioned this to my gaming club mates, some were convinced that Impaling damage would be more appropriate given that teeth make puncture wounds; others, like me, felt that the length of the teeth was insufficient for an Impale, and that Slashing Damage would be a closer description - a gashing wound. (In the little scenario, Vasana luckily had successfully parried the blow, her shield was destroyed and her left arm made useless, but she didn't lose consciousness and then managed to roll a Special result on her counter attack, destroying the wolf's left foreleg and knocking it unconscious. Whew!) Moving from the specific case to a more general approach, I know that some natural attacks will be fairly obvious (a bull's horns would definitely Impale, a horse's hooves definitely Crush, and a cat's claws definitely Slash), but for Bites and other trickier cases, is there some table that defines the Weapon Type for beasts' natural weapons anywhere? Or if not, what are your thoughts? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
French Desperate WindChild Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 bonjour I would say impale ( I have a dog) the fangs can stay inside (not detached from the mouth 😉 ) just the beast can decide to keep them "in" its opponent or try to take (pluck ? not sure of my translator) flesh, that is not "just" laceration in the bestiary there is a similar answer for saber tooth cat Quote Note: Attacks simultaneously with both claws and the bite, which is capable of impaling (though it never gets stuck in the wound). of course a saber tooth is bigger than a dog / wolf fangs but seems to me more appropriate 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g33k Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 Hellow, Rukbat, and welcome! I agree that wolves' fangs just aren't long enough to Impale -- the fangs don't penetrate far enough to do extra "impaling" damage, even though they are "puncture" wounds. Properly speaking -- that is to say, for maximum accuracy -- teeth like that should probably do a new type of damage on a critical, "tearing" damage or the like. Another possibility is to roll some extra crushing damage -- some of those bites can crack bones! I would (just off the top of my head) define a "tearing" critical as -- does normal damage, but destroys the armor in that location (rips it loose from the bodypart hit), leaving the piece flapping loose, attached by a few straps; it will probably foul movement (on the legs) or actions (on the arms), etc. === Finally -- you handled the issue perfectly, actually! Chaosium has made it clear that they don't think the rules should cover every conceivable case or condition; they think the GM should make a ruling and move on. 1 1 Quote C'es ne pas un .sig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rukbat Posted February 3, 2020 Author Share Posted February 3, 2020 (edited) Oh thanks, but it was just a dry run 😁 Personally I think that this is broad enough to warrant covering by the rules, after all, there are a lot of animals that bite. And while I approve of the philosophy that most natural predators would give adventurers a wide berth and move on to easier targets, that just leaves all the animal companions and all the animals under the influence of various spirits, curses, etc. I'm not sure how I feel about armour stripping - for one thing, this makes the special kind of useless against lightly-armoured characters, which seems counter-intuitive. If we are house ruling it, I had this idea: Special Biting Damage: If the attack roll with a Bite is a special success, the attacker does normal damage, and automatically succeeds in Grappling the location hit. As per Grappling, if the defender parries, the weapon/shield arm is grappled instead, as long as the degree of success of the parry is inferior to the attack (otherwise the Grapple is negated). If the special bite is also a critical hit, the Bite does maximum damage. The animal can mantain the hold in subsequent melee rounds, with a successful Bite attack, which also inflicts the attacker's bonus damage (normal damage + bonus damage on another special hit, max damage + bonus on a critical hit). It also then has the option to immobilise its foe, or throw them, as per the normal Grapple rules. If the location hit is the Head, however, the attacker can instead choose to inflict asphyxiation (pag. 156). Now all of that makes me wonder how a grappled combatant can attempt to break the hold. STR vs. STR? Choice of STR vs. STR or DEX vs. DEX? STR+DEX vs. STR+DEX? I guess it's true that we never finish learning, we only get new questions. 🤔 Edited February 3, 2020 by Rukbat 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g33k Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 28 minutes ago, Rukbat said: Personally I think that this is broad enough to warrant covering by the rules, after all, there are a lot of animals that bite... Here's the problem with that approach: how MANY different kinds of bite do you want to model? We have already mentioned wolf & sabre-tooth in-thread, what about venomous snakes? Shark bites? Huge bites like from Allosaurus or T.rex? Beaks like a parrot -- big ones can snip off a finger! -- or Huge beaks like on a Triceratops? Each of these, it seems to me, could be treated as different kinds of Special damage, if one wanted to. Nature's methods of mayhem are more varied than humans' more straightforward habits of combat... Quote C'es ne pas un .sig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rukbat Posted February 4, 2020 Author Share Posted February 4, 2020 3 minutes ago, g33k said: Here's the problem with that approach: how MANY different kinds of bite do you want to model? Good point. And what I was originally after was not the creation of a bulk of new rules, but something more like the Saber Tooth Cat entry - a clear indication pointing to the existing rules. I'm perfectly happy to just go with my original thought and apply Slashing damage to all Bites except for the Saber Tooth - or even extending the Saber Tooth case to all other Bites, although the wording (this is a Bite capable of Impaling) feels to me more like it shouldn't. In fact, maybe Bite attacks are not capable of dealing special damage unless a footnote says so. Whichever of those, or another answer entirely, I'm just looking for a more authoritative answer because my mates and I were split in our own personal opinions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akhôrahil Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 Definitely slashing for bites. Impaling makes sense for scorpionman and giant wasp stings, and the like. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g33k Posted February 7, 2020 Share Posted February 7, 2020 (edited) On 2/3/2020 at 4:40 PM, Rukbat said: .... Whichever of those, or another answer entirely, I'm just looking for a more authoritative answer ... I expect that an "authoritative" answer is exactly what Chaosium is NOT likely to do. I don't think they see this as sufficiently common to justify additional rules. And, as noted, there's LOTS of different kinds of bites. Slashing claws & piercing ones, and blunt hooves too. More rules, and more and more... And mostly, pretty obvious what the ruling should be, so why grow the rulebook to cover the obvious? I think that it is -- in Chaosium's eyes -- part of the RQG GM's job to adjudicate this sort of thing at the table. Edited February 7, 2020 by g33k Quote C'es ne pas un .sig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g33k Posted February 7, 2020 Share Posted February 7, 2020 (edited) On 2/3/2020 at 4:40 PM, Rukbat said: ... because my mates and I were split in our own personal opinions. For anyone who argues that wolves do an "Impaling" Critical, I ask: please show me the YouTube/BBC/NatGeo/etc of wolves stuck by the fangs into their prey, unable to get loose. I'll wait. Edited February 7, 2020 by g33k Quote C'es ne pas un .sig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill the barbarian Posted February 7, 2020 Share Posted February 7, 2020 (edited) 12 minutes ago, g33k said: I don't think they see this as sufficiently common to justify additional rules. And, as noted, there's LOTS of different kinds of bites. Slashing claws & piercing ones, and blunt hooves too. More rules, and more and more... And mostly, pretty obvious what the ruling should be, so why grow the rulebook to cover the obvious? <Cue stirring music, flag blowing in the wind, and the VOICE!> This sounds like a job for... <Fade down music turn off fan> no not superman, what are you, 12? <turn it all back on,sigh> ...The Jonstown Compendium™! Edited February 7, 2020 by Bill the barbarian 1 Quote ... remember, with a TARDIS, one is never late for breakfast! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ali the Helering Posted February 7, 2020 Share Posted February 7, 2020 9 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said: <Cue stirring music, flag blowing in the wind, and the VOICE!> This sounds like a job for... <Fade down music turn off fan> no not superman, what are you, 12? <turn it all back on,sigh> ...The Jonstown Compendium™! Or an old copy of Rolemaster 😴 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill the barbarian Posted February 7, 2020 Share Posted February 7, 2020 5 minutes ago, Ali the Helering said: Or an old copy of Rolemaster 😴 Rulemaster, really? 2 Quote ... remember, with a TARDIS, one is never late for breakfast! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
French Desperate WindChild Posted February 7, 2020 Share Posted February 7, 2020 4 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said: Rulemaster, really? no, Rudemaster 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g33k Posted February 7, 2020 Share Posted February 7, 2020 (edited) <guiltily stuffs his box set of Rolemaster back onto the bottom shelf> "I only read it for the Crit tables, really!" Edited February 7, 2020 by g33k Quote C'es ne pas un .sig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill the barbarian Posted February 7, 2020 Share Posted February 7, 2020 19 minutes ago, g33k said: "I only read it for the Crit tables, really!" J’accuse! Quote ... remember, with a TARDIS, one is never late for breakfast! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g33k Posted February 7, 2020 Share Posted February 7, 2020 1 hour ago, Bill the barbarian said: J’accuse! Careful there, Bill, or I will 66 you! Quote C'es ne pas un .sig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill the barbarian Posted February 7, 2020 Share Posted February 7, 2020 (edited) 25 minutes ago, g33k said: Careful there, Bill, or I will 66 you! 66, hmm? Quote Reference to order 66 from episode III of star wars in which the emperor issues the command to execute order 66 that tells all clones to kill any Jedi they are with. Mass layoffs in a workplace. Reference to order 66 from episode III of star wars in which the emperor issues the command to execute order 66 that tells all clones to kill any Jedi SO I’m a Jedi, eh...Cool, and so much better then the other possibility... Quote A text message symbol representing spoon or spooning. Marie texts: I'm drunk and I want to 66 Ooooh, yuk! Think I would rather be a jedi ifitsallthesamewithyou! *quotes from Urban Dictionary. Edited February 7, 2020 by Bill the barbarian 1 1 Quote ... remember, with a TARDIS, one is never late for breakfast! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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