Advantage rolls

[Lloyd Dupont]

For definition sake (in case I get the name right, so you know what I am talking about)
An advantage (or disadvantage) roll is when you roll your skill a second time and take the (worst) best.

Call of Cthulhu has them. D&D5e has them. I can see how they feel somewhat more satisfying than a +20% bonus (it's not quite the same but it's an ok approximation).

Now my problem is that initially dismissed advantage rolls as a pointless gimmick. But they appear everywhere in my recent readings and I am considering them again...

However I wonder.. when would one (GM) go for (dis)advantage roll instead of malus / bonus?

Me think.. Perhaps I should use (dis)advantage roll in most circumstances. And only use skill/10 for impossible task.
But bonus / malus  works quite well for missile weapon and range. A 20% increment every so often is easy, but +1,2,3,4,5,6... disadvantage roll is quite cumbersome, wouldn't it?

 

[RosenMcStern]

The issue that (dis)advantage rolls have is that you end up only having one level of bonus/penalty. In D&D5 you either have or do not have (dis)advantage, and the rules are built so that one single disadvantages trumps several advantages and vice versa. CoC handles advantage a bit better, but you still can have one (dis)advantage die only, I think. If you have to penalise or reward more, you must add another mechanics.

Honestly, this is not a mechanics that I would recommend, as it is can only exist in parallel with another mechanics, be it the classic +something to the die roll or the 1/something of skill of CoC. In other words, no implementation of this mechanics succeeds in totally avoiding some maths. Mythras, OpenQuest and Revolution all use a unified mechanics that achieves the same result with fewer rules to remember. Some players may be fond of extra dice, but they are more work for the GM. Is it worth it?

And above all... when you are already throwing two dice with each roll, why on earth should you add a third die instead of swapping the two you are already rolling??? 

[Lloyd Dupont]

First I have to say that disadvantage and advantage cancel each other, so there is no confusion on that particular front...

Other than that.. yeah I found them confusing too... (between skill bonus and extra roll) 😕 
 

Edited February 21, 2020 by Lloyd Dupont

[Mugen]

I'm also not impressed by the (dis)advantage mechanism. It's good that D&D 5e has less little bonus to hunt, but sincerely I'd rather just take the highest bonus and malus, or even just eyeball global difficulty.

[g33k]

On 2/21/2020 at 2:52 AM, RosenMcStern said:

The issue that (dis)advantage rolls have is that you end up only having one level of bonus/penalty. In D&D5 you either have or do not have (dis)advantage, and the rules are built so that one single disadvantages trumps several advantages and vice versa ...

I think it was D&D5e where I first met this mechanical formation; I do not know if they created the notion, but I don't think so.

I never allowed a single (dis)advantage to strip away multiples of the other; I always treated it as "add up the number of Advantage-granting circumstances, and subtract the number of Disadvantage-imposing circumstances.  Roll with Advantage if you have a positive total, roll with Disadvantage if you have a negative total."

I've considered -- but never GM'ed enough D&D5 to really dig into the issue -- counting exceptionally-good or -bad "circumstances" as worth more than "one" Advantage or Disadvantage.

I've considered -- but never GM'ed enough D&D5 to really dig into the issue -- allowing multiple total levels of (Dis)Advantage to permit multiple (dis)advantage dice.

I like d100 enough to dig in and really engage with the rules, HR/vary/tweak to my taste, etc.  I don't feel the same about most class/level systems.

[Sigtrygg]

We first came across this concept with 5e - my players and I were often confused as to when to apply said rules so they tended to be ignored after a while.

Then we playtested Mongoose Traveller 2e. It has a boon/bane system in addition to MgT's plethora of target numbers and DMs. Basically you roll 2d6 for a task vs a target number set by the ref and apply +/- DMs as you can hoover them up. The boon/bane system adds rolling an extra die, if you have a boon you pick the highest 2 of your 2 dice on a bane you take the lowest two.

My players love it as a mechanic so much that it replaced a lot of arguments over +/-DMs, and when we went back to my CT houserules game I was forced to take boon/bane with me.

We have toyed with gaining multiple boon/bane dice and due to circumstance - you still pick the highest/lowest two from the number of dice you roll, but this was quietly dropped.

So when I finally picked up CoC Starter and gave that a spin my players quite enjoy the advantage/disadvantage way of doing things (I have toyed with adapting the MgT system, on boon roll 3d10 and pick the lowest % score you can make with two of the dice and vice versa for disadvantage but it tends to have a massive affect so it was dropped too). 

[Lloyd Dupont]

thought so Sigtrygg....

Edited February 27, 2020 by Lloyd Dupont

[g33k]

8 hours ago, Sigtrygg said:

(I have toyed with adapting the MgT system, on boon roll 3d10 and pick the lowest % score you can make with two of the dice and vice versa for disadvantage but it tends to have a massive affect so it was dropped too). 

Just being able to flip-flop the units-vs-tens dice is usually held to be a very-advantageous thing, worth a "hero point" (or other metacurrency) spend.  Occasionally you'll have doubles or adjacent numbers and get little to no difference, but even then... 65 v 56 is substantive, if you're rolling a 60% skill!

Favorite two of three dice, in favorite order?  WOW!  As you say... a massive effect...

(I thought the CoC7 mechanism is just a single alternate 10's die (not a "best two of three", in any order)?)

Edited February 27, 2020 by g33k

[Lloyd Dupont]

On 2/27/2020 at 6:24 PM, Sigtrygg said:

We first came across this concept with 5e - my players and I were often confused as to when to apply said rules so they tended to be ignored after a while.

Then we playtested Mongoose Traveller 2e. It has a boon/bane system in addition to MgT's plethora of target numbers and DMs. Basically you roll 2d6 for a task vs a target number set by the ref and apply +/- DMs as you can hoover them up. The boon/bane system adds rolling an extra die, if you have a boon you pick the highest 2 of your 2 dice on a bane you take the lowest two.

My players love it as a mechanic so much that it replaced a lot of arguments over +/-DMs, and when we went back to my CT houserules game I was forced to take boon/bane with me.

We have toyed with gaining multiple boon/bane dice and due to circumstance - you still pick the highest/lowest two from the number of dice you roll, but this was quietly dropped.

So when I finally picked up CoC Starter and gave that a spin my players quite enjoy the advantage/disadvantage way of doing things (I have toyed with adapting the MgT system, on boon roll 3d10 and pick the lowest % score you can make with two of the dice and vice versa for disadvantage but it tends to have a massive affect so it was dropped too). 

Since you used that with good success Sigtrygg I wonder....

I wonder if disadvantage / advantage rolls mesh well with bonus malus. I mostly ask because there are a few neat way in the rules to deal with skill over 100%, like:
1. in the case of melee the highest opponent inflict his skill over 100% as malus to the others.
2. in the case of missile weapon lots of malus apply to missile weapons.

But using disadvantage instead of malus take that away, and I am not sure they mesh that well....

I think I am still interested in that rule, but as a more exceptional case, like a divine stunt to reroll an attack or a dodge, or maybe a racial bonus.

[Mugen]

On 3/1/2020 at 6:21 PM, Lloyd Dupont said:

Since you used that with good success Sigtrygg I wonder....

I wonder if disadvantage / advantage rolls mesh well with bonus malus. I mostly ask because there are a few neat way in the rules to deal with skill over 100%, like:
1. in the case of melee the highest opponent inflict his skill over 100% as malus to the others.
2. in the case of missile weapon lots of malus apply to missile weapons.

But using disadvantage instead of malus take that away, and I am not sure they mesh that well....

I think I am still interested in that rule, but as a more exceptional case, like a divine stunt to reroll an attack or a dodge, or maybe a racial bonus.

I think the impact of "advantage" style mechanism on critical success chances is sufficient to make it interesting for high skills.

However, rolling 3d10 and taking the 2 lowest ones is just too good... I'd let the player roll 2d10 and keep the best/worst for the tens , and roll a single d10 for the units.

Edited March 3, 2020 by Mugen

[Lloyd Dupont]

8 minutes ago, Mugen said:

I think the impact of "advantage" style mechanism on critical success chances is sufficient to make it interesting for high skills.

I think you misunderstood me, or perhaps not....

What I mean a marksman with 160% can still feel the effect of firing at 200 meter in the darkness against a moving target if that give it a malus of say 100%.
But if it simply 4 disadvantage, that makes little to no impact... Hence I prefer to keep malus over disadvantage for penalties...