Fighting a spirit with a weapon

[PhilHibbs]

1 hour ago, Sumath said:

Can anyone attack a spirit with a magically enhanced weapon, or is it only someone who is being attacked by a spirit?

For example, Albert gets attacked by Bob the Spirit, but then Charlie, using Second Sight or whatever, assists Albert by attacking Bob with his Bladesharp-ened sword. Can you have multiple combatant spirit combat? If so, how does that work?

For a spirit to attack a corporeal person, it has to be visible (e.g. Visibility spell or natural ability), and then it can be attacked. If Albert is on the spirit plane trying to kick out a disease spirit, then no, Charlie cannot help out in the mundane world.

[Lordabdul]

Found this thread while looking for something... so now I'm bumping it!

On 2/21/2020 at 5:39 AM, David Scott said:

Round 1 Ghost 18, success,  Vasana 55, success, tie.

In normal Spirit Combat, a tie still means the 2 participants deal Spirit Combat damage to each other... surely this would happen here too, so both Vasana and the ghost would roll their normal damage?

On 2/21/2020 at 5:39 AM, David Scott said:

Round 3 Ghost 01, critical,  Vasana 68, success, Ghost wins. Critical - Roll twice  3+1 & 5+1= 10. Vasana has 5 mp left and takes 1 hit point damage to her left arm.

I'm considering a house rule where specials and criticals "bump down" one another... so a critical vs special would only roll normal damage. A critical vs a normal success would roll special damage. Thoughts?

 

[Runeblogger]

1 hour ago, lordabdul said:

In normal Spirit Combat, a tie still means the 2 participants deal Spirit Combat damage to each other... surely this would happen here too, so both Vasana and the ghost would roll their normal damage?

No, the text in page 368 could be better worded, but when both get a normal or special success, no one deals damage. Only when both achieve a critical success, then they deal damage to each other. This is clarified in the Q&A.

1 hour ago, lordabdul said:

I'm considering a house rule where specials and criticals "bump down" one another... so a critical vs special would only roll normal damage. A critical vs a normal success would roll special damage. Thoughts?

I think I need an example to really understand your suggestion.

[Runeblogger]

The other day I ran an adventure with lots of spirit combat and from now on I will houserule it a bit as follows:

1. When fighting a spirit with a weapon that can damage a spirit, you can only avoid spirit damage from a successful spirit attack if you achieve an equal or better success on a spirit combat roll. In short: your physical weapon won't help you avoid spirit damage, only to inflict it.

2. Only wraiths and other weird spirits can deal physical damage, and they deal it even with a normal success. On top of that, wraiths deal MP damage the same way as ghosts.

3. Spirits (including wraiths) can only be damaged as per the rules in the rulebook, but enchanted metal weapons only do 1D4 MP damage (or their full damage only if True Weapon is cast on them), disregarding the actual damage of that particular weapon. Criticals and specials when attacking with these weapons (True Weapon or enchanted metal) only do normal damage, it is not doubled.

4. For every extra spirit attacking you after the first, you roll at a cumulative -20% against it, but you can only damage the one you're focusing on each turn, so the rest of the rolls are just to prevent damage from the other spirits.

I'm thinking about not letting PCs gain any spirit spells by defeating spirits when that's not their main intent.

And I think that's it.  😆

Edited June 7, 2020 by Runeblogger

[Lordabdul]

1 hour ago, Runeblogger said:

No, the text in page 368 could be better worded, but when both get a normal or special success, no one deals damage. Only when both achieve a critical success, then they deal damage to each other. This is clarified in the Q&A.

Oh interesting, thanks. Another unclear sentence to fix in RQG 1.5  

1 hour ago, Runeblogger said:

I think I need an example to really understand your suggestion.

Actually never mind, there were some issues with it.

42 minutes ago, Runeblogger said:

In short: your physical weapon won't help you avoid spirit damage, only to inflict it.

That makes a lot of sense to me but upon checking back on the rules, maybe that's also what RAW intended? The text on p369 actually only mentions attacking!

Corporeal entities may attack a spirit that is engaged in spirit combat with enchanted weapons and spells. The physical attack is resolved normally, but opposed by the spirit’s Spirit Combat skill.

It never mentions defending with a weapon...

44 minutes ago, Runeblogger said:

Only wraiths and other weird spirits can deal physical damage

I'm curious about the need for this rule and the next rule too... was there a lot of special/critical rolls on the GM's side that put the PCs in more danger than intended? Or is this to solve some other problem?

47 minutes ago, Runeblogger said:

For every extra spirit attacking you after the first, you roll at a cumulative -20% against it, but you can only damage the one you're focusing on each turn, so the rest of the rolls are just to prevent damage from the other spirits.

I like that because it makes it more consistent with melee combat  (I think one of RQG's biggest flaw is its lack of consistency... i.e. there is not a lot of knowledge transfer from one sub-system to another... too many unique rules). For consistency, would you allow splitting your "Spirit Attack" if you have Spirit Combat above 100%?

50 minutes ago, Runeblogger said:

I'm thinking about not letting PCs gain any spirit spells by defeating spirits when that's not their main intent.

I wouldn't do that... you don't especially intend to take people's stuff when you get into a fight with them, but once they're dead, you're happy to be able to loot their bodies.

Maybe you could require a Control (Spirit/whatever) spell to be cast on the next round after the spirit is defeated? (if not, the spirit retreats to the spirit world)  Or at least require a round or two of role/roll-playing negotiation with the spirit?

Thanks for sharing!

[Runeblogger]

6 hours ago, lordabdul said:

That makes a lot of sense to me but upon checking back on the rules, maybe that's also what RAW intended? The text on p369 actually only mentions attacking!

Corporeal entities may attack a spirit that is engaged in spirit combat with enchanted weapons and spells. The physical attack is resolved normally, but opposed by the spirit’s Spirit Combat skill.

It never mentions defending with a weapon...

Well the way I interpret the rules so far, you only make one attack-defense when fighting a spirit, either using spirit combat or a weapon skill. Since the "attack" also counts as "defense", because you just roll one opposed "attack+defense" roll, the rules seem to indicate (to me, at least) that the weapon attack roll counts for this spirit combat roll, which can create the absurd scene (from my POV) that a weapon skill roll can help you avoid damage from a spirit attack.

If, however, the intent of the rules is that that physical weapon attack is made on top of your normal spirit combat roll, then I would houserule that too, because it looks overpowered to me that a corporeal being can attack a spirit twice (both with spirit combat and with enchanted/TrueSword) while the spirit only once.

6 hours ago, lordabdul said:

I'm curious about the need for this rule and the next rule too... was there a lot of special/critical rolls on the GM's side that put the PCs in more danger than intended? Or is this to solve some other problem?

Wraiths work a little bit different than normal attacking spirits such as ghosts. For example, while ghosts deal normal MP damage (say 1D6+1), wraiths always deal 1D3 MP (no matter their spirit combat skill!) and double that in HP. On top of that, normal attacking spirits usually deal 1 HP damage on top of MP damage when they get a critical or special success, so it is way to make life a bit easier for me by making wraiths the only ones who deal physical damage on top of MP damage. Of course you can create other kinds of spirits who deal physical damage with spirit weapons, spirit bite or spirit darts, but anyway...

Actually, I think I should make wraiths deal HP damage according to the spirit damage table and half of that in MP damage. It would be easier for me that way.

Oh and I forgot another houserule: a special success in spirit combat deals damage twice, not doubled as per the rules, because I feel otherwise specials can be more damaging in certain situations (specially if there is no armor involved) than criticals, which deal damage twice. And it's easier to remember, as well

6 hours ago, lordabdul said:

I like that because it makes it more consistent with melee combat  (I think one of RQG's biggest flaw is its lack of consistency... i.e. there is not a lot of knowledge transfer from one sub-system to another... too many unique rules). For consistency, would you allow splitting your "Spirit Attack" if you have Spirit Combat above 100%?

Yes, even with physical weapon attacks. 🙂

6 hours ago, lordabdul said:

I wouldn't do that... you don't especially intend to take people's stuff when you get into a fight with them, but once they're dead, you're happy to be able to loot their bodies.

Maybe you could require a Control (Spirit/whatever) spell to be cast on the next round after the spirit is defeated? (if not, the spirit retreats to the spirit world)  Or at least require a round or two of role/roll-playing negotiation with the spirit?

Requiring a Control Spirit spell roll might be a good idea.  Consider it stolen!

Edited June 7, 2020 by Runeblogger

[Lordabdul]

1 hour ago, Runeblogger said:

the rules seem to indicate (to me, at least) that the weapon attack roll counts for this spirit combat roll, which can create the absurd scene (from my POV) that a weapon skill roll can help you avoid damage from a spirit attack.

Yeah you're right. Although it's only absurd depending on how you picture spirit combat working... My guess is that it's mostly for game balance anyway, to prevent non-shamans (or other characters with no Spirit Combat skill) from having to sit and wait for the combat scene to end. Your house rule sounds fine since it keeps those characters engaged still, although it makes it a more dangerous proposition for them to try and help, so you'll have to watch out for players opting out of Spirit Combat scenes and looking at their phones instead.

 

[Psullie]

P368: "Spirit combat is always resolved on strike rank 12 of each melee round, regardless of any other actions taken by the characters. If a spirit is attacked with physical weapons or spells, that is resolved on the attacker’s normal melee strike rank."

To me, this suggests that physical and spell attacks are in addition to Spirit Combat. The melee attack occurs on the appropriate SR followed by Spirit Combat on SR 12. Say Bill and Bob are jumped by a nasty Spirit, with the Spirit choosing Bob. Both Bill and Bob can attack with swords on SR 6 and 7 (for example). As this is an Opposed Roll, there is a risk that both could receive damage*. Bob then has to survive another round of Spirit Combat on SR 12.

*I play that as Spirits are not bound by physics, they don't suffer penalties from multiple opponents, multiple attacks, etc. In some cases it might be safer to just use Spirit Combat.

[Lordabdul]

1 hour ago, Psullie said:

To me, this suggests that physical and spell attacks are in addition to Spirit Combat.

....mmmayyybe? The more I read the rules, the less I'm sure about how they're supposed to go

For instance, if Bill is fighting 2 spirits in normal spirit combat, each spirit would attack at SR12, and that's resolved with an opposed roll for each (spirit's Spirit Combat vs Bill's Spirit Combat, one for each spirit). But if Bill wants to fight back with Spirit Combat, does that mean we roll a third opposed roll? (Bill's Spirit Combat vs the targeted spirit's Spirit Combat)

In which case yeah, I guess if Bob is fighting a spirit, but Bob attacks with a magical sword, then Bob's attack is resolved on SR-whatever (Bob's melee SR), with an opposed roll of Bob's Sword skill vs the spirit's Spirit Combat skill... but then the spirit attacks at SR12, and that's the spirit's Spirit Combat vs Bob's Spirit Combat.

In the first case (Bill against 2 spirits), there might be up to 3 damage rolls going to either combatants. In the second case, there might be up to 2 damage rolls, again going to either combatant.

Is that how it works? Does that mean that a 1:1 spirit combat always involves 2 opposed rolls (each combatant attacking the other) unless one of the combatants is trying to do something else (and most likely having to roll a concentration check)?

Edited June 7, 2020 by lordabdul

[Runeblogger]

On the Well of Daliath the following question is answered, which might help in this.

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/catalogue/publishers/chaosium/runequest-roleplaying-in-glorantha-players-book-print/cha4028-runequest-roleplaying-in-glorantha-qa-by-chapter/cha4028-runequest-roleplaying-in-glorantha-chapter-16-spirits -the-spirit-world/

Quote

 

In the “Attacking with weapons and spells” section an attack is resolved normally but opposed by a the spirit’s spirit combat skill.

Does this mean an attacker rolls for the quality of the result based on their normal attack chance (i.e. they will get a crit, special, normal, fail, fumble) opposed by the spirit rolling for their quality of success based on their spirit combat skill? That is how I interpreted it, but if so on a tie does the spirit and/or corporeal entity take damage.? The example in the section shows a magic point reduction but not the opposed roll.

You have interpreted it correctly.

 

I guess the person who made that question actually meant "on a critical tie", but anyway this seems to suggest that the weapon attack roll and the spirit combat roll oppose each other, even if each roll happens in different SR... 🤪

Edited June 7, 2020 by Runeblogger

[Psullie]

1 hour ago, lordabdul said:

Is that how it works? Does that mean that a 1:1 spirit combat always involves 2 opposed rolls (each combatant attacking the other) unless one of the combatants is trying to do something else (and most likely having to roll a concentration check)?

So far that's how I read it... 

[Lordabdul]

8 minutes ago, Psullie said:

So far that's how I read it... 

In which case Runeblogger's first house rule would actually be RAW (magic swords can only deal spirit damage, not protect from incoming spirit attacks)

Edited June 7, 2020 by lordabdul