Fighting a spirit with a weapon

[GAZZA]

Per pp369 of RQG you can attack a spirit with (say) an enchanted iron sword, and "the physical attack is resolved normally but opposed by the spirit's Spirit Combat skill."

Does this mean if you fail the attack and the spirit succeeds in a parry, that it can damage your weapon?

[Richard S.]

I don't think so. I'm tempted to say that nothing happens.

[Akhôrahil]

Intriguing question. It kinda makes sense (in the Glorantha kind of "sense") that a spirit could damage your physical weapon once it has enough spiritual presence that you can bring it into spirit combat in the first place. A Darkness spirit might freeze it, an animal spirit swipe at it, a passion spirit might, uh, something-something... 

Edited February 21, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[David Scott]

4 hours ago, GAZZA said:

Does this mean if you fail the attack and the spirit succeeds in a parry, that it can damage your weapon?

Resolving Spirit Combat on page 368 doesn't work like normal combat. It's opposed roles with compared levels of success.

Here's a spirit combat example using Vasana, imaging her an broadsword is enchanted: 

Using Ghost from the bestiary,  POW (4D6) 15, CHA 3D6) 10, spirit combat 75%, 1D6+1 damage, Ancestral Spirit Spells (9 points): Dispel Magic 3, Summon (spirit dog) 4, slow (1), Mobility (1)

Vasana is currently

POW 15, CHA 19, Broadsword 90%, 1D8+1 damage. Damage bonus doesn't count in spirit combat

All happens at SR12

Round 1 Ghost 18, success,  Vasana 55, success, tie.

Round 2 Ghost 76, fail,  Vasana 51, success, Vasana wins. Rolls 6+1 = 7. Ghost has 8 mp left.

Round 3 Ghost 01, critical,  Vasana 68, success, Ghost wins. Critical - Roll twice  3+1 & 5+1= 10. Vasana has 5 mp left and takes 1 hit point damage to her left arm.

Round 4 Ghost 94, fail,  Vasana 60, success, Vasana wins. Rolls 1+1 = 2. Spirit has 6 mp left.

Round 4 Ghost 66, fail,  Vasana 04, critical, Vasana wins. Critical - Roll twice  6+1 & 8+1= 16. Ghost has 0 mp left.

Quote

Any adventurer defeating a spirit in combat may gain one of its spirit magic spells (player’s pick). If the spirit possesses a variable point spell, the adventurer may gain possession of as many points in the spell as the spirit possesses.

Victorious, Vasana chooses a spell that the Ghost knows, Summon (spirit dog) 4.

[Richard S.]

2 hours ago, David Scott said:

 

So it uses spirit combat mechanics? The text that GAZZA is citing imply that it's resolved with normal attack rules but with Spirit Combat instead of a weapon skill for the spirit.

[David Scott]

2 hours ago, Richard S. said:

So it uses spirit combat mechanics?

Yes

Quote

The text that GAZZA is citing imply that it's resolved with normal attack rules but with Spirit Combat instead of a weapon skill for the spirit.

 In the context that text is in the Spirit Combat section of Spirits and the Spirit World chapter and is on of its subsections.

This is just the first paragraph not the whole subsection (page 369)

Quote

Corporeal entities may attack a spirit that is engaged in spirit combat with enchanted weapons and spells. The physical attack is resolved normally, but opposed by the spirit’s Spirit Combat skill. However, the magic point damage from physical weapons is based on its magical nature

Normally refers to the section it's in -  the spirit combat section. It's not in the combat chapter.

It also means that it uses the spirit combat critical & special rules and the spirit combat fumble table.

Edited February 21, 2020 by David Scott

[GAZZA]

I would argue that this is, at the very least, unclear. All it says is that the weapon attack is resolved as normal, but the spirit uses its Spirit Combat skill.

Though for what it's worth I'm inclined to think that the idea of hurting spirits with normal attacks is questionable at best.

[soltakss]

2 hours ago, GAZZA said:

I would argue that this is, at the very least, unclear.

As with many of the rules in RQG, unfortunately. Sigh.

2 hours ago, GAZZA said:

Though for what it's worth I'm inclined to think that the idea of hurting spirits with normal attacks is questionable at best.

I agree.

In our RQ2 Campaign, we had Rune Lord Priests who would happily take out a Dream Dragon but would run in terror when faced by Spirits, as 0 Temporary POW meant permadeath.

RQ3 changed that by using MPs and having 0 MPs meaning unconscious, but that is still really dangerous.

RQG makes spirits dangerous by increasing the damage they do based on their POW, but then nerfs them by having magical weapons damage them.

I wouldn't allow that, I want my Rune Lord-Priests to be running from spirits in terror.

[Shiningbrow]

The way I see it is that it's basically "parrying" or "dodging", but MPs are lost instead of HPs (thus disagreeing with @David Scott's Critical above - it doesn't make sense that just because *you* attack with a physical weapon, *it* has to hurt HPs instead... After all - how?)

 

23 hours ago, David Scott said:

Victorious, Vasana chooses a spell that the Ghost knows, Summon (spirit dog) 4.

Why is this a 4 point spell??? The "variable" tag for this is supposed to be because you can dump as many MPs as you want into it...

[David Scott]

This one lets you summon up to 4 spirit dogs at a time. 

[PhilHibbs]

On 2/21/2020 at 4:00 PM, Richard S. said:

So it uses spirit combat mechanics? The text that GAZZA is citing imply that it's resolved with normal attack rules but with Spirit Combat instead of a weapon skill for the spirit.

It says "an opposed roll" (correction: "opposed by"), which is not a combat mechanic. Combat has some similarity to opposed rolls, in that you adjust for over 100% in the same way, but combat explicitly states that it is not an opposed roll. Spirit combat is an opposed roll. So, for instance, there is no reduction of 20% for each defended attack. All weapon attacks are opposed at full skill level.

Hm, the actual wording is "opposed by", which is a phrase used in combat:

Quote

• If the adventurer has a skill above 100% and that
  skill is opposed by another skill lower than the
  adventurer’s skill, the opposing skill is reduced by
  the amount that the adventurer’s skill is above 100%.
  Thus, a troll with a 75% shield skill who tries to
  parry an attack from an adventurer with a 120%
  sword skill has only a 55% chance of parrying the
  sword.

So... inconclusive.

However, I'll accept David Scott's interpretation. Opposed roll, no -20% per opponent.

Edited February 25, 2020 by PhilHibbs

[Akhôrahil]

On 2/22/2020 at 2:31 PM, David Scott said:

This one lets you summon up to 4 spirit dogs at a time. 

This isn't at all clear from the rules.

[PhilHibbs]

On 2/22/2020 at 1:15 PM, Shiningbrow said:

Why is this a 4 point spell??? The "variable" tag for this is supposed to be because you can dump as many MPs as you want into it...

"Variable" means you can learn multiple points of the spell, like "Healing 3". If "variable" here referred to the MPs used to summon the spirit, then you'd have to learn 15 points of Summon to summon a 15MP spirit, requiring 15 points of your CHA. Harsh. On the other hand, I agree that it is not clear from the rules what the "variable" gives you. Making it Multisummon? Wow. That's pretty amazing.

Do the MP count towards all of the creatures, so Summon (Spirit Dog) 4, with 10MP dumped it it, summons 4 dogs with up to 10MP each? Or do you need 40MP for that?

Maybe this is a Core Rules Questions thing, but I'll take the Khan of Khans' answer.

Edited February 25, 2020 by PhilHibbs

[David Scott]

43 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

This isn't at all clear from the rules.

I  made it up. In my mind it's a 1 pt spell as it has to take up CHA and so 1 point will clearly summon one dog, so 4 points will summon 4 dogs. I'm more than happy in my games to make up any kind of spell or spell variation. If you look at NPCs in published materials, they often have stuff not defined in the rules. As the rules say:

Quote

 

Maximum Game Fun

When writing, thinking, and gaming in Glorantha, always ask yourself, “Now, in this situation what is the most fun?” and then go with it. That’s Maximum Game Fun (MGF). Keep this principle in mind whenever you apply the rules of RuneQuest to any situation.

 

Presenting players with fun stuff is key to the game. Likewise Jeff and Jason say the rules are not definitive 

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/catalogue/publishers/chaosium/runequest-roleplaying-in-glorantha-players-book-print/cha4028-runequest-roleplaying-in-glorantha-qa-by-chapter/

42 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Summon (Spirit Dog) 4, with 10MP dumped it it, summons 4 dogs with up to 10MP each?

Thats how I would play it.

[Akhôrahil]

 

57 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Do the MP count towards all of the creatures, so Summon (Spirit Dog) 4, with 10MP dumped it it, summons 4 dogs with up to 10MP each? Or do you need 40MP for that?

I would say the latter. The former becomes crazypants with a big enough spell. 

Also, you wouldn't get 4 Spirit Dogs with 10 MP each anyway. You would get 4 Spirit dogs with rolled-up random  MP, and if any gets over 10 MP,  that one doesn't arrive.

Edited February 25, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[David Scott]

3 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

The former becomes crazypants with a big enough spell

Can you explain why?

[Akhôrahil]

Just now, David Scott said:

Can you explain why?

Because of geometric scaling and economy of scale. If you can summon 1 entity of 10 MP for 11 MP (1 MP for the spell itself, 10 MP for effect) but 10 entities of 10 MP each for 20 MP (10 MP for the spell, 10 MP for effect), then the cost and scaling gets thrown completely into whack. Not only that, the Summon Entity 10 is also much better because of difficulties with dispelling it. 

I think it should cost a lot more than 24 MP to be guaranteed, say, 10 Brontosaurs... 

[Shiningbrow]

18 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

I think it should cost a lot more than 24 MP to be guaranteed, say, 10 Brontosaurs... 

Spirit brontosaurs... Just to be pedantic 😛

[Akhôrahil]

10 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Spirit brontosaurs... Just to be pedantic 😛

Oddly, no. "Shamans and adventurers normally summon only spirit entities", but it's not clear why, and it's a mere "normally". You can get regular physical Brontosaurs if you have the spell for it, don't ask me how it even works. Do they get picked out from some jungle where they usually live? Constructed out of nothingness?

Edited February 25, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[Shiningbrow]

2 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Oddly, no. "Shamans and adventurers normally summon only spirit entities", but it's not clear why, and it's a mere "normally". You can get regular physical Brontosaurs if you like, don't ask me how it even works. Do they get picked out from some jungle where they usually live? Constructed out of nothingness?

Apologies... I was still thinking of what started this tangent - spirit dogs.

Given the range of spirit magic, wouldn't Summon Brontosaurus 10 a bit... Ummm - not sure of the right word here 😛 odd??? Silly? 

[Akhôrahil]

Just now, Shiningbrow said:

Given the range of spirit magic, wouldn't Summon Brontosaurus 10 a bit... Ummm - not sure of the right word here 😛 odd??? Silly? 

That was my thought, yes. 🙂 And especially, it feels that 24 MP shouldn't be nearly enough to accomplish it.

[PhilHibbs]

2 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Oddly, no. "Shamans and adventurers normally summon only spirit entities", but it's not clear why, and it's a mere "normally". You can get regular physical Brontosaurs if you have the spell for it, don't ask me how it even works. Do they get picked out from some jungle where they usually live? Constructed out of nothingness?

I don't think that ignoring that line entirely, and saying "anything can be summoned, including brontosaurs, humans, or piles of gold", is the right answer. It summons a creature from the otherworld, there aren't many actual physical brontosaurs there. There are demons, however - if you cast Summon (Cacodemon) you get an actual physical Cacodemon to play with.

[Akhôrahil]

31 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

I don't think that ignoring that line entirely, and saying "anything can be summoned, including brontosaurs, humans, or piles of gold", is the right answer. It summons a creature from the otherworld, there aren't many actual physical brontosaurs there. There are demons, however - if you cast Summon (Cacodemon) you get an actual physical Cacodemon to play with.

Fun fact: Black Horses are listed under Spirits.

[Sumath]

Can anyone attack a spirit with a magically enhanced weapon, or is it only someone who is being attacked by a spirit?

For example, Albert gets attacked by Bob the Spirit, but then Charlie, using Second Sight or whatever, assists Albert by attacking Bob with his Bladesharp-ened sword. Can you have multiple combatant spirit combat? If so, how does that work?

[Ali the Helering]

4 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Oddly, no. "Shamans and adventurers normally summon only spirit entities", but it's not clear why, and it's a mere "normally". You can get regular physical Brontosaurs if you have the spell for it, don't ask me how it even works. Do they get picked out from some jungle where they usually live? Constructed out of nothingness?

You just have to wait for a VERY long time 😁