Your Dumbest Theory

[Joerg]

3 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

Pretty much everything about Glorantha is presented as in-world raving, and there is no requirement that Dumb Theories be true ravings: “What convictions do YOU have that you recognize are ridiculous but love them anyway?”

Not quite. A good amount of Gloranthan lore has been accumulated under the watchful oversight of Truth magic, which admittedly tests the subjective truthfulness of the author rather than providing a Lhankor Mhy Reconstruction magic for each and every bit of data.

The study of Chaos (and laterally adjacent matters, including Disorder, Lunar madness or the veil of Darkness) has an intrinsic falsehood. This is the province of Gbaji, which even the Arkati acknowledge as a risk. Tomes like the Book of Drastic Resolution are doing the work of Gbaji (at least when they go into unsupervised distribution outside of sufficiently enlightened AND responsible circles).

 

3 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

Creation is one thing we would normally contrast with Chaos. I think we are agreed that “Chaos things” (gorp, etc.) are made of the same stuff as Cosmos, just differently ordered. Corruption — rot — of stuff (let us park the soul, for now) is a Darkness function.

Corrosion is a force inherent to all of the elements, with rather different outcomes as per element. Storm and Sea corrosion results in different products than Dark corrosion (aka rot), but exposure to Earth provides digestion (rot), too (composting). Exposure to Light and Flame weakens and erodes stuff in yet different ways when it doesn't simply burn them. Moonglow corrodes the mind.

Corruption on the other hand goes beyond mere corrosion (which is just a form of Change, of Becoming). Corruption is Unbecoming, losing all defining properties except for corrupting whatever it touches.

 

3 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

Two notions of the Chaos–Cosmos contrast (neither of which requires a duality of substance):

• Cosmos is stuff and Chaos is nothing;

Not true. The Void is a (hot) vacuum of eternal becoming and instantly unbecoming, not really nothing, but inherently impermanent.

Gorp stuff is at least semi-permanent, but non-gorp stuff that gets absorbed by gorp passes through a singularity losing all and every definition it had before. Somewhat ironically, the most solid and ordered stuff is what is weakest against gorp, while the some of most volatile stuff can permanently consume gorp stuff, removing it from the Web of Arachne Solara (or fast-feeding it to Time?).

Time itself acts a bit like gorp-stuff (it is after all Kajabor regurgitated), but it hinders itself in consuming Creation, slowing that inevitable process.

3 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

• Cosmos is well-ordered stuff and Chaos is the same stuff but lacking its proper structure.

Creation includes well-ordered Darkness, well-ordered Sea, well-ordered Disorder, well-ordered Storm, even well-ordered Wildfire and well-ordered Celestial sperm. Rock, Metal and Crystal are the only well-ordered components of Creation.

Gorp stuff lacks almost all properties. It has some cohesion (which sharp or bludgeoning objects can easily disrupt, though, separating out portions of the bad stuff), it possesses a certain amount of energy enabling it to move (or rather translocate by oozing), and it corrupts stuff that it touches. It is weak towards brine, towards fast-flowing water (energy), and to flame, and Storm can stall it but not really diminish it. Earth and Rock are weak to it.

Gorp stuff has no structure - that's the point(lessness) of it.

 

3 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

Both notions are likely in play (see, for example, Cults of Prax Classic: Designer Notes, Part Two — PDF, p. 106), but the idea of nothing, non-being, nirvana as evil is the one that intrigues me.

The Void/Silence/Primal Plasma/Prime Mover acts as a contemplation of the balance of Becoming and Unbecoming beyond Creation which may open the way not into the dissolution in the Void but into unity with the Ultimate, the Source of Energies. That's the mystic end game, not mere submission to the Void but surpassing the limits of existence and becoming the Source. The Void (by whichever name you call it) is neutral when kept separate from Creation. Small amounts of Unbecoming can be tolerated and balanced while the well of Creation works enough to replace what gets annihilated.

4 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

the idea of nothing, non-being, nirvana as evil is the one that intrigues me. I have no sympathy for it, but it is fascinating to me that someone would think of it as evil. Why must the gods think of their ceasing to be as evil? “Because then they wouldn’t exist” adds nothing and so is a non-answer.

Getting swallowed by Unbecoming separates them from the Ultimate (which is projected onto them by the runes).

As far as I can make it out, Chaos can reach out to Atrilith, but gets undone when confronted with the Ultimate - that's how Mashunasan operates.

 

4 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

Horror at the thought of the Void produces monsters, not the Void itself for that is nothing and does nothing (which is why people don’t like “it”).

Infection of reality by the Void produces monsters, as can unprepared exposure to the Ultimate. Properly prepared confrontation of and then unity with the Ultimate allows ascension. (Which might be different from Malkioni Ascended Masters who have intellectual unity with the One Mind.)

 

4 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

So my witterings are offered in the spirit of good non-canonical fun, but not fun with no contact with the text. We have and for the breaking down of structure, so if doesn’t connote total existence failure, which rune does?

None. Infinity ties to the Ultimate, the Source, the flow of energies (life) through the world. Death/Separation wards existence against annihilation.

Chaos denotes the impending loss of connection to the Ultimate, even if it may allow a direct access to its energies through the chaotic features, including stuff like Walktapus or Cave Troll regeneration or Were-beast shape-shifting and immunity to mundane weaponry.

 

4 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

Even is said to connote temporary reality rather than no reality at all — though I suspect there is a “Gloranthan” tendency to view only permanent reality as “true” or “real” reality, but that is a step along the path of nothing substantial is real, isn’t it? I guess some people worry about whether the world is real enough and the soul immortal enough — my conceit is that these people are potential chaos fighters and potential monsters.

Illusion is reality that dissipates in the face of the Ultimate (and/or against the corruption of Time). It is part of reality, but without direct access to the energies sent out into the world by the Ultimate, although Illusion may be fed indirectly by these energies once they have been processed by Life (or possibly once they have been reflected by Moon).

in White Bear and Red Moon, the Illusionary Armies of the Puppeteer Troupe are reality, but must not get into the neighborhood of dragons or superheroes (or any other manifestations of Infinity) or be annihilated.

 

4 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

If there is no rune that points clearly and unambiguously at the Empty Void, is that a measure of anxiety — we daren’t even name it? If anyone dares to say that no real, solid, scabby Wakboth can be Chaos because Wakboth is, then they are breaking a taboo, so their fellow Gloranthans call them mad for saying it (and being a lone voice crying in the wilderness can in the end drive one mad). The point of giving us the Book of Drastic Resolutions is not for us to immediately discard it as worthless, but to provide us with an additional way of looking at the subject matter. Perhaps …

I posit if there is a rune for Nothing, it is a blank.

There is a rune for the Void, though - for the balance of Becoming and Unbecoming outside of Creation (which can also be read as "before Creation" and even as "after Uncreation"). The Void is a vacuum quantum plasma. It has Zero Point Energy. On the edge of a singularity, it may manifest stuff or energies.

Chaos is a drain on the energies from the Source. That's a different (absence of) quality.

Earlier we had the statement that Chaos is a scab on exposure to the Void. I disagree - Chaos is a sore and a pustulence, not a scab.

[Joerg]

2 hours ago, scott-martin said:

Their Glorantha(s) Varied. Or maybe they stayed in "Glorontha" or "Acos" or some other state of being before the apocalypse that created the modern world. From our point of view engaged with the text of Glorantha, they did not survive. Unless they come back or we go over ("er meint irgendein sagenhaftes Drüben") anything can be true.

Or maybe that return to a happier, earlier phase of the Cosmos is the equivalent of Annihilation of its futures? A looped past that removes itself and its memories from what emerged out of the Greater Darkness?

[Ynneadwraith]

On 3/6/2024 at 10:36 AM, mfbrandi said:

I confess to being a little confused. To my simple-minded way of seeing it:

• an avatar is a deity descended into the mundane (mortal) world — direction = down;
• a hero is a mortal trying to break into the big leagues, the divine world — intended direction = up.

I tend to prefer a rather more animist view of things, achieved by deciding that these two things are arbitrary distinctions conjured by fallible mortal minds (God-Learners) grasping at the truth but failing to truly comprehend. The Gods are the world and the world is the gods. There is no direction, they are all here. We are all Us.

Of course, this all devolves into mystic bloviating designed primarily to instil a lovecraftian sense of mystery into the world and isn't actually all that relevant to the day-to-day functioning of Glorantha (*cough Nysalorian Riddles *cough).

On 3/6/2024 at 10:36 AM, mfbrandi said:

The prayer-powered gods thing always makes me queasy.

I'm also a little dissatisfied with the prayer-powered gods thing. I do quite like the idea of tying a god's stature within a world to its worshippers though, but I think 'prayer' is a bit of a boring mechanism to do it by. It feels too 'direct cause and effect'. I much prefer the idea of action being the driving force.

Take the example of Assyria and Babylon, each with their own City Deity. When Assyria conquered Babylon and carried off the idol of Marduk it was because her armies were strong, and also because Assur was strong. Assur was strong because Assyria's armies were strong, and Assyria's armies were strong because Assur was strong. One did not cause the other, they were both each other's cause and effect. Ancient people seemed far happier with this sort of tautology than we are today, and it fuddles the directness of cause and effect nicely so people can't game the system so easily.

Edited March 11 by Ynneadwraith

[mfbrandi]

29 minutes ago, Ynneadwraith said:

Assur was strong because Assyria’s armies were strong, and Assyria’s armies were strong because Assur was strong. One did not cause the other, they were both each other’s cause and effect.

Or rather than invoking any causal or logical weirdness, just say the strength of the army is the strength of Assur — they are realised by the same configurations of matter/energy?

[Ynneadwraith]

5 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

Or rather than invoking any causal or logical weirdness, just say the strength of the army is the strength of Assur — they are realised by the same configurations of matter/energy?

Definitely a better way of describing what I was going after! They're one and the same thing, each phenomenon inseparable from the other.

This ties in with something else I like about this version of things rather than the 'prayers = power' thing. There is no difference in the power of one god to the next, only in their ability to influence the world (which happens to be through mortals doing things). Gods do not gain or lose power, they just are. They're simply forgotten or remembered.

Though all of this does conflict slightly with my adoration of Pratchett's Small Gods. I wonder if I can metaphysically lever that in somehow...

[Joerg]

With most deities, sacrifice (not prayer) adds to their power, but they tend to have some intrinsic power of their own. There have been notable exceptions in Glorantha's past - Avanapdur in the Greater Darkness East Isles (an illusionary deity strengthened to the point that it deposed established ruling deities and led a number of Antigod leaders), Jogrampur in God Learner Umathela (an experimental made-up deity whose initiates wielded actual rune magic when they rose up in rebellion against the experimenters) and to some extent the Machine God Zistor in the Clanking City.

[mfbrandi]

42 minutes ago, Ynneadwraith said:

On 3/6/2024 at 10:36 AM, mfbrandi said:

• an avatar is a deity descended into the mundane (mortal) world

I tend to prefer a rather more animist view of things

Yeah, I wasn’t trying to push a multiple worlds view of Glorantha. It just seemed to me that people talked of avatars in the context of (made-up) religion as if they were talking about a video game avatar or a hi-jacked blue body in a Cameron film, but surely an avatar of Vishnu is Vishnu (where that is the “is of identity”, =), right?

As to whether Glorantha has another world or a part of the same world to host myths, even the Guide to Glorantha says “Myths are not objective reality” (p. 154), and one suspects that a reality that is not objective is no reality at all. 😉

[radmonger]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

With most deities, sacrifice (not prayer) adds to their power

IMG sacrifice adds to the power of the cult, not the god. More people who have sacrificed for more rune magic is a more powerful influence on the world; a stronger army, a more productive economy, and more informed decision makers. Which can support more and larger temples with more and larger wyters, who hand out more magic.

Apart from that effect, the 'power' of a god has the same relationship to the power of a cult as it does in the real world. When people believe something, they act on that belief. This can change the world.

People who believe in the Great Compromise don't study, or quest, for the magic that would break it. Except, of course, as a deterrent, retaliation or preemptive strike on what someone else is doing.

 

 

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, radmonger said:

IMG sacrifice adds to the power of the cult, not the god. More people who have sacrificed for more rune magic is a more powerful influence on the world; a stronger army, a more productive economy, and more informed decision makers. Which can support more and larger temples with more and larger wyters, who hand out more magic.

Apart from that effect, the 'power' of a god has the same relationship to the power of a cult as it does in the real world. When people believe something, they act on that belief. This can change the world.

People who believe in the Great Compromise don't study, or quest, for the magic that would break it. Except, of course, as a deterrent, retaliation or preemptive strike on what someone else is doing.

While it usually is the cult that mediates the magic to its initiates (and associates), it is the deity who receives the soul link (rune points) to the initiate and a little bit of indirect agency in the world of Time. (There is the possibility of spirit cults addressing the deity outside of the official cult structure, and there are Heroquesting ways to access the magic of a deity unlike the cult methods).

Bronze Age magic is not really about belief or even piety, it works on the principle "do ut des". The sacrifices are given to the deity in the expectation that the deity either offers help or abstains from causing undue damage. This is done by the cult whose leaders are held responsible for placating or mediating the deity.

In RuneQuest rune points acquired empower a follower who qualified to receive these rune points to spend them. Good standing in the (local section of the) cult allows the follower to renew these points by participation in the sacrifices of the holy day rites.

I have yet to see evidence for temple wyters or cult wyters - i.e. entities entirely relying on the gift of magic by the worshippers to grant magic to them. That is a difference to clan, tribal or city wyters which do rely on these. Temple spirits seem to come from the same pool as do allied spirits.

[radmonger]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Bronze Age magic is not really about belief or even piety, it works on the principle "do ut des". The sacrifices are given to the deity in the expectation that the deity either offers help or abstains from causing undue damage.

The word _belief_ is a bit ambiguous'; I meant it as _justified expectation_, not _faith_. You might get up early on a winter  morning in the belief that the sun will rise, a bus will arrive, and that you make it to the office in time. If your beliefs were different, you would not do that. 

A Gloranthan believes in their god in the same sense a New Yorker believes in the subway.

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

have yet to see evidence for temple wyters or cult wyters

Second scenario in starter box?

More generally, the temple size rules strongly suggest that magic is normally retained locally, not transmitted via the god to distant lands where it is needed more.  There is no provision for a god to say 'this is a small. but strategically important temple, better make sure it gets all the good stuff'.

[scott-martin]

1 hour ago, radmonger said:

A Gloranthan believes in their god in the same sense a New Yorker believes in the subway.

Top quip!

My spies just told me that "it's gotten really bad down there, like '70s bad, no wonder they called out the national guard" and I ponder how the nature of the subway gods can change . . . as above so below. And yet I still have fairly high confidence (truth rating) that the trains still run down there, years after even seeing a station entrance much less riding with the damn things.

Not sure if it's what jorganos was talking about but I always liked the RQ3 mechanic for loading temple guardians with magic, as seen in Sun County and probably updated sources.

[mfbrandi]

1 hour ago, scott-martin said:

I ponder how the nature of the subway gods can change

From Walter Matthau and Robert Shaw to giant mantis–termites in twenty-odd years?

[mfbrandi]

1 hour ago, scott-martin said:

And yet I still have fairly high confidence (truth rating) that the trains still run down there, years after even seeing a station entrance much less riding with the damn things.

You believe. I guess that for a New Yorker, it is more like gravity holding or the sun rising tomorrow — in theory reality could let them down, but for them it is beyond doubt. 😉

[scott-martin]

16 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

You believe. I guess that for a New Yorker, it is more like gravity holding or the sun rising tomorrow — in theory reality could let them down, but for them it is beyond doubt. 😉

This is another good point. People who are still in the city simply KNOW that the train is running and when it doesn't (flooding, blackout, operator error, metal fatigue, pandemic, unannounced track work, wildcat strike, terror attack) it's time to seek alternate routes. When the alternate routes stack high enough the last route is back to the mainland. Those left behind will say you gave up. But maybe the day will come when the final train grinds to a halt . . . this is the doubt that drives us apostates from the city once and for all.

Maybe the gods are like that. Or whatever the mostalites commune with when the machine stops.

I believe London has something similar about ice ages, nuclear errors and other catastrophes being mitigable so long as you live by the river.

 

Edited March 11 by scott-martin
doubt

[Ali the Helering]

1 hour ago, scott-martin said:

I believe London has something similar about ice ages, nuclear errors and other catastrophes being mitigable so long as you live by the river.

We're gonna need a bigger river.....🙃

[mfbrandi]

Edited March 12 by mfbrandi

[mfbrandi]

When Chaos is relational, dissection will get you nowhere …

[mfbrandi]

Unsurprisingly, ancestry is a relational property, not an intrinsic one — you cannot expect to read genealogy from genes, for example — so are there records one can forge to summon fake ancestors?

[scott-martin]

53 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

[mfbrandi]

4 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

TotB must be in the running for most Gloranthan comic ever.

[Joerg]

12 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

I like how the mystic's head is devoured by Chaos.

[mfbrandi]

3 hours ago, Joerg said:

I like how the mystic's head is devoured by Chaos.

First draft had the (apparently) headless body plunging back down to earth in 7, like this:

[mfbrandi]

  From the Dwarf Ancestors thread some stimulating stuff:

7 hours ago, AndreJarosch said:

If a … shaman tries to summon his dead grandfather, … the person he recognizes as his grandfather would show up, not the unknown to him biological grandfather. 

6 hours ago, scott-martin said:

To a properly broken dwarf or self-initiated shaman every can and pipe has its spirit. With the right access to the official population records you can probably … take a step back in order to make a great leap into the future

4 hours ago, jajagappa said:

If they recycle body AND soul …, then I don’t think any “ancestors” would remain

If the Holy Mother doesn’t upload a representation, no “soul data” survives bodily death. Dwarf, human, whatever — the whole ghosts, reincarnation, table turning, and ancestor summoning racket is an exercise in wish-fulfilment enabled by the hungry, hungry intertubes and incomprehensibly quick vøid servers of Glorantha’s hardest working tech sis. You put in your ancestor request and Her AIs whip up a facsimile of what you think you want … or what it suits Her to serve you.

Why did the Patient One invent the “immortal soul”? As ever, it is hard to say. Is it a small part of Her research into improved ansible tech? There was a market? Is it just that — like Mallia — She is always hard at work doing Her share of the thankless tasks that keep the world functioning as expected, though no one likes to peek behind the curtain?

[Cell 79024683 approves this message. The approval of other cells or Her Bad Self should not be inferred. Never read the small print. Hail Krarsht!]

Edited March 14 by mfbrandi
?

[mfbrandi]

10 hours ago, AlexS said:

In our Glorantha there is actually a whole Kitori cultural tradition (‘Isalling Kitori’) dedicated to taking the ‘Path of the Wasp’ … In our campaign this was traditionally a fringe vocation followed by a relatively small number of young Kitori … In the past some might have taken the ‘Path of the Wasp’ as a permanent choice after being called by Zorak Zoran or Gorakiki upon initiation rather than Argan Argar

And yet, and yet …

An insect’s sting is Fire being put to work by Darkness:

• Deep within [Lodril–Veskarthan] is the Wildfire, an untameable demon of conflagration that once threatened to destroy all of Creation … Veskarthan fought with Argan Argar in the Darkness and was defeated. The Dark God forced Veskarthan into humiliating chains of shadow
  — Prosopaedia: Veskarthan (CHA4042 PDF, p. 131)
• Walking over flaming charcoal with a three-inch nail embedded in your heel … waves of burning, throbbing, all-consuming pain that continues unabated for up to 24 hours.
  — Justin Schmidt, Wikipedia: Bullet Ant

Can we not see the insect’s sting as the power of Wildfire secured by Argan Argar from Lodril for Gorakiki? — “A trade, Gorakiki: I give you weapons and energy; you work for me.” — All three of the Curious Spirits have a relationship with Fire, but ZZ’s is permanently problematic (more stung than stinger: a bellyful of bullet ants). The sting is a normalised, naturalised Fire power, fitting better pragmatic AA. The spear is the stinger of the enlo.

(How many faces of Gorakiki? Won’t Gorakiki Hymenoptera do for bees, wasps, ants, and sawflies?)

One might also wonder whether “priapic” Lodril has been correctly sexed: prick or modified ovipositor? (See also: broo.) But then one cannot help thinking Lodril = Gorakiki. (Are we are supposed to believe that Wildfire ≠ Lodril?)

ZZ swallows Fire and burns ever after. XU befriends Fire. Practical AA stores it in an insect Goddess, and perhaps gives us our just-so story explaining solar-powered Darkness six-legs: the power of Aether is decanted into Khepri–Gorakiki Beetle in the early universe (the scarab is the first form of the sun). The sun is primal Fire domesticated — spending half its time in Darkness, making surface life possible — and perhaps that is AA’s major achievement. Perhaps …

[Clearly, this post evolved as it was written. So it goes. 😉]

Edited March 16 by mfbrandi

[mfbrandi]

Notes Toward a Revisionist Thed

1. What the world probably needs is Susan Brownmiller’s take on Thed. This is not that.
    
2. As every schoolgirl knows, the broo lifecycle is lifted from the parasitoid wasp (and Sandy included Alien’s xenomorph in the Gateway Bestiary). Orlanthi schoolboys are in denial, of course — that is their function.
   
   Thed — rejecting mammalian sexual reproduction for … reasons — studied the secrets of Darkness under Mallia. Two key lessons:
   
       • horizontal gene transfer — grab new genes without sex°
       • bacteria can induce parthenogenesis (in parasitoid wasps)°°
   
   Every broo is female, every broo is a virgin, no broo needs a womb (for each has an ovipositor). The broo developing inside its host may acquire genes from it, but this has nothing to do with sexual reproduction — the host is not a parent (for the larva already exists and is munching its way through the host’s body). Broo may look like goats, but functionally they have much more in common with bacteria and bacterially enhanced insects.
    
3. There was no cabal with Ragnaglar. Ragnaglar was not the parent of any of Thed’s children — he was the first host on which Thed tested her new reproductive equipment: paralysed and eaten from the inside. David Scott’s mixing up of Ragnaglar and Thed miniatures can be seen as a happy parapraxis: it was Mad R whose abdomen was ripped open from the inside by the emerging Wakboth.
    
4. This does not mean that Thed was not the mother of the Devil, but Thed is not viviparous. No desire for “her husband”, no husband ruling over her, no painful labour: Thed rejects Eve’s rôle — to the patriarchy, this is “letting Chaos into the world”.
    
5. But rapists turn into broo, right? No. It is a metaphor: those consumed by their own guilt are “eaten from the inside”. To add to the confusion of dim and poorly educated Orlanthi barbarians, broo larvae always finish the food: the husk of a host can seem like a discarded chrysalis case. “Look, Oddi must have been a secret Chaotic, for he has transformed into a broo.”
   
   The guilty rapist may suffer the pangs of one who is going to “turn into a broo”. But that is a misunderstanding. It never happens. Thed is not a rapist and neither are her daughters.
    
6. So what is Kyger Litor’s beef with Thed? KL saw Thed embracing Darkness reproductive strategies and producing robust broo. She resented this because she had done a deal (there was no curse) with the Devil — Nysalor–Gbaji in this case — embracing techniques Thed had dismissed to produce surface-adapted trolls and had been disappointed with the enlo, considering them feeble, disgusting things.
   
   Ask any of the three curious spirits: the trollkin strategy is working. After Argrath’s apocalypse, the enlo will be the last humanoids standing — the broo (already in decline) and the dark and mistress “races” will be gone. KL took out on Thed KL’s own perceived mistake — which was no mistake at all but her one wise choice. The broo are fierce and splendid, but the meek enlo shall inherit the lozenge.

———————————————————————
° https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horizontal_gene_transfer

°° For example: https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.221467498 and https://www.nature.com/articles/6800617