Myrthas sorcery and spirits

[rleduc]

Hello Mythras experts.

Although I have no problem just inventing new spells to meet my needs, I would like to resolve this as close to the rules as written as I can.

I'm running straight Mythras in a sort of "Dark Ages/England 500 AD/but there's more magic" kind of world. And in this world, there's this reclusive old man (NPC) who maintains this ancient and forgotten holy site that is also a royal property. Turns out, the old man is actually an elf who has left the other fair folk and for generations has been maintaining this overlooked backwater holy site while working on his sorcery. The holy site draws all sorts of spirits from all over the realm--medicine spirits, sickness spirits, shape-shifting, undeath, whatever--but whatever they are they can be found up on this desolate moorland at the chapel within the circle of standing stones.

My question is, what is this guy doing. I'm thinking he has Protective Wards, Spirit Resistance, and maybe Banish in case something goes wrong. Mystic (Sense) to know what is moving around him. But in general I figure he'd be using Evoke to bring the spirits into his presence--but then what? Are their any spells that would allow a Sorcerer to force a spirit to do anything? Is he just left to negotiate with them--that would be kind of cool--but not exactly what I was thinking.

Anyway, any thoughts or ideas would be welcome.

 

Regards

 

 

[Raleel]

The RAW here is that there are no spells in sorcery Specifically to make a spirit do anything, and he’s left to negotiate. You could easily rule spirits are Creatures and use Dominate. I could see borrowing the animism rules and Applying appropriately. A true name might be needed, or some skill in poetry to impress him, or maybe even commerce.

The RAW here is very much a toolkit. 

[Bilharzia]

I would just make the "man" a druid, as per Mythic Britain. As an "elf" he may be a kind-of-spirit himself, or at least a supernatural creature manifest in the mundane world as a normal-seeming man.

Maybe I've missed something but it does seem very much like he is a druid (shaman) ... so why the need for sorcery?

So, if you haven't looked much at Animism, all he needs is Trance and Binding to find and negotiate with the spirits, and Lore(Annwyn) and Lore(Tír na nÓg) or the Saxon otherworlds, so that he has knowledge of the places and spirits there.

Edited August 31, 2020 by Bilharzia
+Animism

[rleduc]

I need to check my notifications--sorry to ignore your response Bilharzia. I'm coming at this from a Magic World/BRP background and I'm interested in how the various magic systems interact. That's why I made his specifically a sorcerer. How would a sorcerer deal with spirits? In Magic World I would think of summoning extra-dimensional nastiest and then binding them. I didn't see anything like that in Mythras, but I wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something obvious.

[Prinz Slasar]

5 hours ago, rleduc said:

How would a sorcerer deal with spirits? In Magic World I would think of summoning extra-dimensional nastiest and then binding them. I didn't see anything like that in Mythras, but I wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something obvious.

For one of the upcoming Mythras books (german editition) I'd wrote rules for that kind of stuff.
In very short: The rules have two ways to deal with spirits: Animism and Sorcery. The Sorcerer-Animists use Evoke (Spirits) for summoning and a new spell Dominate (Spirits) for forcing them into a binding object etc.  - The spell is new insofar, that it is re-written for dealing with spirits, e.g. its limitations are related to the POW-stat instead of the INT/INS-stat.
Furthermore, the sorcery rules combine elements of the Animism, for example: Instead of a Spirit Combat the Sorcerer-Animist uses Dominate (Spirit), but if he fails the outcome is similar to a failed Spirit Combat.
Additionally, Sorcerer-Animists have a couple of abilities regarding spirits which make them superior to Animists in case of summoning and binding of spirits: E.g. they can summon chaotic spirits with specific Chaos Taints (instead of random Chaos Taints), have easier access to True Names (which have some advantages) and can give demons (aka Chaos spirits) special "Pacts of Protection". These pacts are mightier than the according Chaos Taint ability.



 

Edited September 11, 2020 by prinz.slasar

[rleduc]

Thanks prinz.slasar. That was close to what I was thinking--but I was going to add that he had to use Enchantment if he wanted to bind the spirit. That way the sorcerer would also need a stream of power spirits that he would "Tap" (I can't recall if that's a Mythras spell) for the energy to bind other spirits into potions.

 

I think you've just motivated me to try and learn German! 

[Prinz Slasar]

50 minutes ago, rleduc said:

Thanks prinz.slasar. That was close to what I was thinking--but I was going to add that he had to use Enchantment if he wanted to bind the spirit. That way the sorcerer would also need a stream of power spirits that he would "Tap" (I can't recall if that's a Mythras spell) for the energy to bind other spirits into potions.

I see what you are getting at. Of course, your idea is quite possible.

The background of the magic rules I have outlined (sorry, for being very short) is that Animism is the fundamental magic form in dealing with spirits, and Sorcery could be seen as an "improved Animism".
This means that I have combined both magic disciplines in such a way that Sorcery is always a kind of "Animism with shortcuts" and in parts gives better results.
Examples are: The animistic summoner has to win a Spirit Combat to bind a spirit or force it into service, while the sorcerer only needs the spell. In this case, however, the spell is just another way to win a Spirit Combat and force a bargain with the Spirit.
Therefore, a Sorcerer-Animist does not need an additional spell to control/bind the spirit.

The situation (and rules) would be different if Sorcery itself was conceived as a completely independent form of magic - separate from Animism.

 

[lawrence.whitaker]

The RAW approach is that each magical tradition is its own sphere, and another discipline cannot be a 'better' or more effective form of another tradition. This is why RAW sorcery has limited ways of dealing with spirits: such things are meant to be the province of shamans, and no sorcerer should be able to surpass a high shaman in how they deal with the spirit world. Conversely, animists should not be able to outdo a high wizard in terms of manipulating the fabric of reality to achieve magical effects, and neither a wizard nor a shaman has anything on a high priest when it comes to channelling the power of the gods.

[rleduc]

4 hours ago, prinz.slasar said:

The situation (and rules) would be different if Sorcery itself was conceived as a completely independent form of magic - separate from Animism.

 

I like what you were doing. I was approaching it as Sorcery is knowing ways to force reality to bend to your will while Animism is knowing ways to interact with spirits. The first has a bunch of tricks that are represented as spells--I think of it as literally spelling the desired effect out with runes (for example) where each run does its part to change reality and the sorcerer puts them together in such a way as to achieve a certain effect. The animist, on the other hand, has been initiated into traditions that allows them to interact with spirits--sometimes friendly, sometimes not.

 

1 hour ago, lawrence.whitaker said:

The RAW approach is that each magical tradition is its own sphere, and another discipline cannot be a 'better' or more effective form of another tradition. This is why RAW sorcery has limited ways of dealing with spirits: such things are meant to be the province of shamans, and no sorcerer should be able to surpass a high shaman in how they deal with the spirit world. Conversely, animists should not be able to outdo a high wizard in terms of manipulating the fabric of reality to achieve magical effects, and neither a wizard nor a shaman has anything on a high priest when it comes to channelling the power of the gods.

In principle (I assert without evidence 😉 ) game balance could still be maintained even when both sorcerers and animists are able to interact with spirits. That is why I was going to require the Enchant spell for binding. But I do thing RAW do a great job of achieving balance--I'm just fiddling around the edges.

[Prinz Slasar]

52 minutes ago, rleduc said:

In principle (I assert without evidence 😉 ) game balance could still be maintained even when both sorcerers and animists are able to interact with spirits. That is why I was going to require the Enchant spell for binding. But I do thing RAW do a great job of achieving balance--I'm just fiddling around the edges.

It is important to mention that the rules I've talked about were written with a narrow setting-specific focus and a non-RAW premise. They weren't written as general guidelines. Therefore they are "beyond the edges" you are fiddling around with.