Stormbringer Character Creation - Designer Edition

[Jason D]

NOTE: This is in NO WAY to be taken as anything official and does not represent any future plans or anything in development. 

I was just at The Kraken, a retreat also known as "the most comfortable and best-fed four days in gaming", and ran a session of old-school Stormbringer 1st edition, straight out of the book, all dice rolls open and no fudging.

Miraculously, all of the characters survived (mostly by avoiding combat) but it did serve as an excellent reminder of the paradigm shift of what players find acceptable in gameplay. 

After the game, one of the players asked me "As the editor of RuneQuest, if you were redesigning Stormbringer now, what would you do?" 

So here's my answer about how I'd redesign character generation. 

First off, I love the randomness and would probably keep many of the random elements of character generation as the preferred method, but would allow for "roll on the following table, or pick a desired result" just to keep the influence of Chaos present.  

If it isn't mentioned down here below, it's not something I feel strongly about changing. I am a big fan of random armor values, for example, as I think they fit the setting and solve the problem of using light weapons vs. heavily armored foes. 

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

• Include a pregenerated spread method of assigning characteristics. 
• Scaling back homeland characteristic bonuses (probably by half).  
• Getting rid of the skill category bonuses entirely and improving base chances for skills across the board. 
• Giving player characters their starting language skills (Speak at INTx5) automatically. 
• Rather than random skills (1d6+2 skills at 1d100/2), players just get X skills with standardized bonuses (five skills at +20%, for example). 
• Rebalance classes so nobles are not the end-all of character creation, assassins are not better than dedicated warriors, and make craftsmen more of a well-rounded artisan class than the wild card that they are.
• Probably add a few interesting missing classes such as Performer, Nomad, Healer, Scholar, Trader, etc. 
• Maybe add a sidebar with suggested options for characters from others of the Million Spheres, stranded in the Young Kingdoms.  
• Add RQ-style Passions (Hate, Fear, Devotion, Love, Honor, etc.). 
• Add RQ-style augments for skill rolls. 
• Remove some of the less useful skills (Ambush, Scent, Taste, Memorize), rename some others, and add some more useful missing ones.
• Adding something about background - either some background generation or some means of giving the character some initial trajectory. Something to both tie the character to their homeland and past, but also give them some pathos, including some skill bonuses and some initial Passions. 
• Cut a few of those weird exception-based rules that are buried in the text. 
• Replace Elan with Allegiance (from Elric!). 
• Add Distinctive Features (from Elric!). 
• Use the updated damage bonus chart.
• Add a Renown or Reputation value.  
• For the "lucky" few that begin with magic, make sure that they begin with a pact of service already in place, either hereditary (such as the folk of Melnibone) or a bargain they've made prior to the beginning of gameplay 

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Magic... that would be a page 1 rewrite. While I think the 1st edition demon/elemental summoning worked best so far, IMO there's never been a magic system that really got the flavor of the fiction. 

Gods and cults... I'm not convinced that there are elemental cults as described in SB1, and I'm not a fan of many of the additions made to flesh out the Lords of Law. My gut feeling is that most worship in the Young Kingdoms is at the "lay member" level, versus being particularly fervent. 

And yes, I know some of the subsystems named above are from games earlier than the current edition of RQ or Elric!, but for shorthand, I'm using those as the most direct references. (You don't need to point this out to me. Don't be like that.) 

 

 

 

[DreadDomain]

33 minutes ago, Jason D said:

After the game, one of the players asked me "As the editor of RuneQuest, if you were redesigning Stormbringer now, what would you do?" 

So here's my answer about how I'd redesign character generation. 

First off, I love the randomness and would probably keep many of the random elements of character generation as the preferred method, but would allow for "roll on the following table, or pick a desired result" just to keep the influence of Chaos present.  

If it isn't mentioned down here below, it's not something I feel strongly about changing. I am a big fan of random armor values, for example, as I think they fit the setting and solve the problem of using light weapons vs. heavily armored foes. 

Interesting approach. I happen to agree with almost all your points but...

33 minutes ago, Jason D said:

•  
• Scaling back homeland characteristic bonuses (probably by half).  

I don't remember how big they were so I might be in agreement. I only state that I like homeland characteristic modifiers

33 minutes ago, Jason D said:

• Getting rid of the skill category bonuses entirely and improving base chances for skills across the board. 

Oh do I strongly, very strongly disagree with this. I generally dislike when characteristics don't figure into skills

33 minutes ago, Jason D said:

• Use the updated damage bonus chart.

Again, don't remember what was the db progression in SB1 but I find the one used in RQ too lumpy. I prefer a smoother progression.

All the rest, I think I agree.

[Guest Vile Traveller]

Same here, generally speaking, though I would probably find myself cutting back even more. I don't like big-range stat bonuses in a human centric game, either (which Stormbringer is, mostly), so I would just have base chances according to background. We're not that different, children and olympic athlete comparisons aside.

Now, in a diverse setting featuring all sorts of species, bonuses would be appropriate, but again I think that's easier to handle via base chances. Stat bonuses are more fiddly than they're worth, IMO.

Magic is always tricky in a licenced setting, it rarely fits with a systematic approach like we've become used to since D&D. CoC might be a good starting point, but in general I think the best way to handle it is via guidelines, and making magic use sn adventure in itself.

[Tentacled Whisperer]

I'd agree with most of that. Ambush can be pretty useful though. Maybe it's a play style thing? 

Variable armour is a stormbringer staple and I wouldn't change it. 

Imo the best magic system is the one used in corum. Nice and clean. Lots of options. 

I've ran my current group through stormbringer, elric and currently elric of melnibone (mrq1) for the rogue mistress campaign. Our band of demon hearted mutants is kind of split what to do next, either mrq2 EoM or stormbringer and corum. I lean towards the latter as I feel it flows better. Especially for a Friday night game with beers. 

[smiorgan]

On 10/24/2021 at 9:53 AM, Jason D said:

NOTE: This is in NO WAY to be taken as anything official and does not represent any future plans or anything in development. 

@Jason D thanks for super-duper non-officially posting your thoughts on Stormbringer! Love it!

 

[Tentacled Whisperer]

On 10/24/2021 at 9:53 AM, Jason D said:

NOTE: This is in NO WAY to be taken as anything official and does not represent any future plans or anything in development. 

I was just at The Kraken, a retreat also known as "the most comfortable and best-fed four days in gaming", and ran a session of old-school Stormbringer 1st edition, straight out of the book, all dice rolls open and no fudging.

Miraculously, all of the characters survived (mostly by avoiding combat) but it did serve as an excellent reminder of the paradigm shift of what players find acceptable in gameplay. 

After the game, one of the players asked me "As the editor of RuneQuest, if you were redesigning Stormbringer now, what would you do?" 

So here's my answer about how I'd redesign character generation. 

First off, I love the randomness and would probably keep many of the random elements of character generation as the preferred method, but would allow for "roll on the following table, or pick a desired result" just to keep the influence of Chaos present.  

If it isn't mentioned down here below, it's not something I feel strongly about changing. I am a big fan of random armor values, for example, as I think they fit the setting and solve the problem of using light weapons vs. heavily armored foes. 

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

• Include a pregenerated spread method of assigning characteristics. 
• Scaling back homeland characteristic bonuses (probably by half).  
• Getting rid of the skill category bonuses entirely and improving base chances for skills across the board. 
• Giving player characters their starting language skills (Speak at INTx5) automatically. 
• Rather than random skills (1d6+2 skills at 1d100/2), players just get X skills with standardized bonuses (five skills at +20%, for example). 
• Rebalance classes so nobles are not the end-all of character creation, assassins are not better than dedicated warriors, and make craftsmen more of a well-rounded artisan class than the wild card that they are.
• Probably add a few interesting missing classes such as Performer, Nomad, Healer, Scholar, Trader, etc. 
• Maybe add a sidebar with suggested options for characters from others of the Million Spheres, stranded in the Young Kingdoms.  
• Add RQ-style Passions (Hate, Fear, Devotion, Love, Honor, etc.). 
• Add RQ-style augments for skill rolls. 
• Remove some of the less useful skills (Ambush, Scent, Taste, Memorize), rename some others, and add some more useful missing ones.
• Adding something about background - either some background generation or some means of giving the character some initial trajectory. Something to both tie the character to their homeland and past, but also give them some pathos, including some skill bonuses and some initial Passions. 
• Cut a few of those weird exception-based rules that are buried in the text. 
• Replace Elan with Allegiance (from Elric!). 
• Add Distinctive Features (from Elric!). 
• Use the updated damage bonus chart.
• Add a Renown or Reputation value.  
• For the "lucky" few that begin with magic, make sure that they begin with a pact of service already in place, either hereditary (such as the folk of Melnibone) or a bargain they've made prior to the beginning of gameplay 

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Magic... that would be a page 1 rewrite. While I think the 1st edition demon/elemental summoning worked best so far, IMO there's never been a magic system that really got the flavor of the fiction. 

Gods and cults... I'm not convinced that there are elemental cults as described in SB1, and I'm not a fan of many of the additions made to flesh out the Lords of Law. My gut feeling is that most worship in the Young Kingdoms is at the "lay member" level, versus being particularly fervent. 

And yes, I know some of the subsystems named above are from games earlier than the current edition of RQ or Elric!, but for shorthand, I'm using those as the most direct references. (You don't need to point this out to me. Don't be like that.) 

 

 

 

I also like the idea of cross planar characters. I'd fleshed out the vadhagh Prince from the perils of the young kingdoms, man who sells gods scenario hoping a player would die and they could pick him up. I'd also give the beggar class some love as love having one in the party and see it as a stormbringer staple 

[smiorgan]

On 10/24/2021 at 9:53 AM, Jason D said:

Miraculously, all of the characters survived (mostly by avoiding combat) but it did serve as an excellent reminder of the paradigm shift of what players find acceptable in gameplay. 

Recently, I was re-reading the GM's chapter of Stormbringer and there is a passage where St. Andre + Perrin say that unlike most RPGs on the market Stormbringer is designed to have "fairly powerful characters right from the beginning" and that "you will not have to play for months to develop a character worth having" (page 113). 

Which is a bit surprising if you think of today's standards. But if you compare Stormbringer characters with RQ2's 16-year old characters it's kind of true. 🙂

 If I can put my two cents on the issue of the power level in Stormbringer, I think an hypothetical future edition should consider offering a level of play where all players start from the beginning as agents of the cosmic forces, as it happens in the French game Mournblade. The characters can still be pretty ordinary, vulnerable and very mortal but a whim of Fate decided that they entered a pact with some god or cosmic force bigger than them, and they have some dangerous power / curse straight from the beginning. I'd like to have that at least as an option alongside starting with ordinary people as in earlier editions.

Another option that leaves things more open could be having such a pact dormant at the beginning: the character has hazy memories of past lives or extraplanar experiences, but the consequences of that will be revealed as the game progresses. That could work great for players who don't want to decide from the beginning if they serve Hionhurn of Chaos or are sworn lover-champions of Myshella of the Law.

  

 

  

[Marcus Bone]

On 10/24/2021 at 8:53 PM, Jason D said:

NOTE: This is in NO WAY to be taken as anything official and does not represent any future plans or anything in development. 

That's how rumours start @Jason D 😛

[smiorgan]

On 10/24/2021 at 9:53 AM, Jason D said:

NOTE: This is in NO WAY to be taken as anything official and does not represent any future plans or anything in development. 

First off, I love the randomness and would probably keep many of the random elements of character generation as the preferred method, but would allow for "roll on the following table, or pick a desired result" just to keep the influence of Chaos present.  

If it isn't mentioned down here below, it's not something I feel strongly about changing. I am a big fan of random armor values, for example, as I think they fit the setting and solve the problem of using light weapons vs. heavily armored foes. 

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

• Include a pregenerated spread method of assigning characteristics. 
• Scaling back homeland characteristic bonuses (probably by half).  
• Getting rid of the skill category bonuses entirely and improving base chances for skills across the board. 
• Giving player characters their starting language skills (Speak at INTx5) automatically. 
• Rather than random skills (1d6+2 skills at 1d100/2), players just get X skills with standardized bonuses (five skills at +20%, for example). 
• Rebalance classes so nobles are not the end-all of character creation, assassins are not better than dedicated warriors, and make craftsmen more of a well-rounded artisan class than the wild card that they are.
• Probably add a few interesting missing classes such as Performer, Nomad, Healer, Scholar, Trader, etc. 
• Maybe add a sidebar with suggested options for characters from others of the Million Spheres, stranded in the Young Kingdoms.  
• Add RQ-style Passions (Hate, Fear, Devotion, Love, Honor, etc.). 
• Add RQ-style augments for skill rolls. 
• Remove some of the less useful skills (Ambush, Scent, Taste, Memorize), rename some others, and add some more useful missing ones.
• Adding something about background - either some background generation or some means of giving the character some initial trajectory. Something to both tie the character to their homeland and past, but also give them some pathos, including some skill bonuses and some initial Passions. 
• Cut a few of those weird exception-based rules that are buried in the text. 
• Replace Elan with Allegiance (from Elric!). 
• Add Distinctive Features (from Elric!). 
• Use the updated damage bonus chart.
• Add a Renown or Reputation value.  
• For the "lucky" few that begin with magic, make sure that they begin with a pact of service already in place, either hereditary (such as the folk of Melnibone) or a bargain they've made prior to the beginning of gameplay 

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Magic... that would be a page 1 rewrite. While I think the 1st edition demon/elemental summoning worked best so far, IMO there's never been a magic system that really got the flavor of the fiction. 

Gods and cults... I'm not convinced that there are elemental cults as described in SB1, and I'm not a fan of many of the additions made to flesh out the Lords of Law. My gut feeling is that most worship in the Young Kingdoms is at the "lay member" level, versus being particularly fervent. 

Seems like a good plan, @Jason D! I hope you one day get a shot at designing your version of Stormbringer. I'm sure I'm going to like it.

So far it seems a healthy mix of Stormbringer and Elric! with very fitting additions from Rune Quest (passions are a must!).

  

Edited October 26, 2021 by smiorgan

[Tentacled Whisperer]

I'd agree bar the rq comments. Imo that's where stormbringer lost its way. Elric with its dumbed down spirit magic and Mrq1 and mrq2 variants of EoM for example. It needs its own identity else I'll just play rq. For me recently picking up the corum supplement shows the direction stormbringer should have gone. Rq can be quite rulesy. I prefer the more fluid approach of stormbringer. 

[smiorgan]

21 hours ago, Gaynor the Damned said:

I'd agree bar the rq comments. Imo that's where stormbringer lost its way. Elric with its dumbed down spirit magic and Mrq1 and mrq2 variants of EoM for example. It needs its own identity else I'll just play rq. For me recently picking up the corum supplement shows the direction stormbringer should have gone. Rq can be quite rulesy. I prefer the more fluid approach of stormbringer. 

I agree with you that Stormbringer needs to remain simple and fluid. And I think Jason is of the same opinion, actually. The reference to RQ was for things like passions and augments, which are simple d100 rolls and allow PCs to fuel their actions with the passions that drive them. Personally, I would NOT add strike ranks, hit locations and the more rulesy bits of RQ to Stormbringer. That would be quite antithetical to the spirit of the source material.

An I also agree that spellcasting was the weakest part of Elric! rules in terms of flavor.  Mechanically the spells are perfectly OK, but don't feel right for the Elric stories.

   

Edited October 27, 2021 by smiorgan

[Tentacled Whisperer]

Dont you think things like passions etc are there to encourage RP in a rules heavy system and shouldnt be as required in something like Stormbringer? Re magic, have you seen the way corum handles it? id mix that with stormbringer, removing binding and just use a summon and command type approach and stop there. 

[Atgxtg]

On 10/26/2021 at 8:28 AM, Gaynor the Damned said:

I'd agree bar the rq comments. Imo that's where stormbringer lost its way.

Huh?! Stormbringer was based on RQ2, and introduced a few things that made it into RQ3, such as a 1% skill increments and category modifiers. I do think they made some bad decisions with Elric! but 90% of Strombringer was Runequest. Tossing out RQ would basically leave you with the setting and a bit of Tunnels & Trolls rules.  

On 10/26/2021 at 8:28 AM, Gaynor the Damned said:

Elric with its dumbed down spirit magic and Mrq1 and mrq2 variants of EoM for example.

I think that wasn't RQ's influence so much as a easy way to add spells to the game. It was something of a mistake though, as we didn't see that sort of magic in the stories. There are some spells, but they seem to work a bit differently, and the whole feel was off.

IMO the bad influence came from CoC. The loss of category modifiers (and the corresponding reduction in the importance of characteristics) came from there. Elric! may have used 2d6+6 for characteristics, but they didn't mean all that much. STR only matters for damage bonus, CON and SIZ for hit points, DEX for intiative, with IQ, POW and CHA only mattering to sorcerors.

 

As far as random armor goes, I think the values should be increased to reflect the changes in the characteristic scores. Back with SB1 was released, human SIZ was rolled on 3d6, and the average character didn't have a damage bonus. But after RQ3 human SIZ in BRP games was raised to 2d6+6, an the average character ended up with a +1d4 damage bonus. Now armor got slightly increased at that time to match, but that change never made it to the ramdom armor values. 

Changing plate from 1d10-1/1d10+2 to 2d6-1/2d6+2 would offset the increased db. I think changing most of the random armors to two dice would help to make armor a bit more useful, too. 

Edited October 27, 2021 by Atgxtg

[Atgxtg]

On 10/25/2021 at 12:21 PM, smiorgan said:

Recently, I was re-reading the GM's chapter of Stormbringer and there is a passage where St. Andre + Perrin say that unlike most RPGs on the market Stormbringer is designed to have "fairly powerful characters right from the beginning" and that "you will not have to play for months to develop a character worth having" (page 113). 

Yeah, but they probably overdid it. Pretty much every edition since then toned down the characters, especially the sorcerors. I was running a SB1 campaign and wasn't aware of the changes in the SB2/3 rulesbooks (they looked the same) that some of my players had.  

On 10/25/2021 at 12:21 PM, smiorgan said:

Which is a bit surprising if you think of today's standards. But if you compare Stormbringer characters with RQ2's 16-year old characters it's kind of true. 🙂

 

Well, RQ did have previous experience rules in the back of the book. I think the comment is probably aimed more at level based RPGs, where characters start off at first level and players did have to "play for months to develop a character worth having". At the time most RPGs on the market were level based. I think most still are today.

 

[smiorgan]

7 hours ago, Gaynor the Damned said:

Dont you think things like passions etc are there to encourage RP in a rules heavy system and shouldnt be as required in something like Stormbringer? Re magic, have you seen the way corum handles it? id mix that with stormbringer, removing binding and just use a summon and command type approach and stop there. 

I kinda disagree about passions. They originally were in Pendragon, which is not really a rules heavy game. The problem one could have with passions in the current RQ is that characters end up having too many of them. One interesting trick for keeping Stormbringer simple could be to limit the number of active passions a player character can have. For instance, one could say that at any given time a PC cannot have more than:

One Love: Cymoril, then Zarozinia. Or Rhalina, then Mebdh

One Enemy (Hate): Yyrkoon, then Jagreen Lern, or Earl Glandyth na Krae.

One Companion (Loyalty): Moonglum or Jhary-a-Conel.

Three passions only.

The fact that your hate or love or loyalty can have an effect on your dice rolls is cool and heroic in my view.

As for Corum magic, yes I think it is very well done. Much better than standard Elric magic. Just slightly too brutal for the Young Kingdoms.

 

 

[smiorgan]

13 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

 

Well, RQ did have previous experience rules in the back of the book. I think the comment is probably aimed more at level based RPGs, where characters start off at first level and players did have to "play for months to develop a character worth having". At the time most RPGs on the market were level based. I think most still are today.

 

I'd say both. Stormbringer in this respect was different both from D&D and RQ.

[Tentacled Whisperer]

50 minutes ago, smiorgan said:

I kinda disagree about passions. They originally were in Pendragon, which is not really a rules heavy game. The problem one could have with passions in the current RQ is that characters end up having too many of them. One interesting trick for keeping Stormbringer simple could be to limit the number of active passions a player character can have. For instance, one could say that at any given time a PC cannot have more than:

One Love: Cymoril, then Zarozinia. Or Rhalina, then Mebdh

One Enemy (Hate): Yyrkoon, then Jagreen Lern, or Earl Glandyth na Krae.

One Companion (Loyalty): Moonglum or Jhary-a-Conel.

Three passions only.

The fact that your hate or love or loyalty can have an effect on your dice rolls is cool and heroic in my view.

As for Corum magic, yes I think it is very well done. Much better than standard Elric magic. Just slightly too brutal for the Young Kingdoms.

 

 

Some good points. Not sure I agree but certainly food for thought.

 

On 10/26/2021 at 11:57 AM, smiorgan said:

Seems like a good plan, @Jason D! I hope you one day get a shot at designing your version of Stormbringer. I'm sure I'm going to like it.

So far it seems a healthy mix of Stormbringer and Elric! with very fitting additions from Rune Quest (passions are a must!).

  

 

[Atgxtg]

4 hours ago, smiorgan said:

I'd say both. Stormbringer in this respect was different both from D&D and RQ.

Some truth there. Although with the previous experience rules it didn't take that long to make Rune Level. On the other hand, it was certainly possible to start D&D characters higher than first level.

[Atgxtg]

4 hours ago, smiorgan said:

I kinda disagree about passions. They originally were in Pendragon, which is not really a rules heavy game. The problem one could have with passions in the current RQ is that characters end up having too many of them. One interesting trick for keeping Stormbringer simple could be to limit the number of active passions a player character can have. For instance, one could say that at any given time a PC cannot have more than:

One Love: Cymoril, then Zarozinia. Or Rhalina, then Mebdh

In Pendragon that's how Love/Amor passion work. If you encounter someone and get a new Amor at a higher value it wipes out the old one. THere is something about knights avoiding looking a Guinevere so as to protect thier current amors.

 

4 hours ago, smiorgan said:

One Enemy (Hate): Yyrkoon, then Jagreen Lern, or Earl Glandyth na Krae.

In Pendragon multiple Hates are't really a problem. It's rare to have multiple hated foes to show up in the same adventure. Even rarer if the hatred is for a specific person rather than a group, as PC tend to kill off enemies.

It does look like most people in the Young Kingdoms hate Melniboeans and Pang Tangians, both with good reason. 

 

4 hours ago, smiorgan said:

One Companion (Loyalty): Moonglum or Jhary-a-Conel.

Pendragon had Loyalty (Group) that handled this fairly well. Thus a Knight could have a Loyalty (Lord) and a Loyalty (Knights of the Round Table) or some such. I think a Loyaty (Group) passion could work out fairly well for Strombringer. Dorian Hawkmoon has a half dozen or so friends, and the second Hawkmoon series sort of depends upon that. 

In general multiple passions lead to richer stories as they can come into conflict. For instance Elric was torn between his Loyalty to Melnibone, his Love for Cymoril, and his hatred for Yyrkoon. Of course in Elrics case most of loves enemies and friends die off before he gets another one to worry about anyway- which is convenient, I guess.

 

The problem I see with incorpating RQG passions into Stormbringer is that it does seem to make passions a bit more frivious. In Pendragon passions only really took over when they were high, and the penalties for failure helped to curb frivious passion roles.  In RQG the skill peanlty for failure is only 10%, no one ever goes mad fumbling a passion roll, and no one has to roll of the aging table for failing to accomplish the task for which they were inspired. So they are just an easy way to get a boost.

IMO, Pendragon style passions would work much better in Stormbringer than RQG passions, as they have more depth, and Pathos. Elrics failure to save Cymoril hits hard because that was the only thing he was trying to do. He was willing to turn his back on Melnibone (they did it first) and everything just to have her, and he ends up losing her anyway. In Pendragon he's suffer for that. In RQG not so much.

 

 

 

[smiorgan]

9 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

In Pendragon that's how Love/Amor passion work. If you encounter someone and get a new Amor at a higher value it wipes out the old one. THere is something about knights avoiding looking a Guinevere so as to protect thier current amors.

 

In Pendragon multiple Hates are't really a problem. It's rare to have multiple hated foes to show up in the same adventure. Even rarer if the hatred is for a specific person rather than a group, as PC tend to kill off enemies.

It does look like most people in the Young Kingdoms hate Melniboeans and Pang Tangians, both with good reason. 

 

Pendragon had Loyalty (Group) that handled this fairly well. Thus a Knight could have a Loyalty (Lord) and a Loyalty (Knights of the Round Table) or some such. I think a Loyaty (Group) passion could work out fairly well for Strombringer. Dorian Hawkmoon has a half dozen or so friends, and the second Hawkmoon series sort of depends upon that. 

In general multiple passions lead to richer stories as they can come into conflict. For instance Elric was torn between his Loyalty to Melnibone, his Love for Cymoril, and his hatred for Yyrkoon. Of course in Elrics case most of loves enemies and friends die off before he gets another one to worry about anyway- which is convenient, I guess.

 

The problem I see with incorpating RQG passions into Stormbringer is that it does seem to make passions a bit more frivious. In Pendragon passions only really took over when they were high, and the penalties for failure helped to curb frivious passion roles.  In RQG the skill peanlty for failure is only 10%, no one ever goes mad fumbling a passion roll, and no one has to roll of the aging table for failing to accomplish the task for which they were inspired. So they are just an easy way to get a boost.

IMO, Pendragon style passions would work much better in Stormbringer than RQG passions, as they have more depth, and Pathos. Elrics failure to save Cymoril hits hard because that was the only thing he was trying to do. He was willing to turn his back on Melnibone (they did it first) and everything just to have her, and he ends up losing her anyway. In Pendragon he's suffer for that. In RQG not so much.

 

 

 

Lot of food for thought! Designers of future editions take notes!

[Atgxtg]

4 hours ago, smiorgan said:

Lot of food for thought! Designers of future editions take notes!

LOL! It's really just experience playing Pendragon. It uses D20's instead of D100, but even a character with a high passion is hesitant to use it. 

For instance, a player knight with Sword 15 and Hate (Picts) 15, fighting a Pict with Greatspear 10 seriously considers rolling that Hate passion. If he crticals he ends up with 30 vs 10, which is nearly a sure thing. If he succeeds 25 vs 10 is nearly as good. But on a failure it becomes 10 vs 10 and is nearly an even match (differences in SIZ and weapons give the knight a slight edge), and on a fumble the player might end up losing his character for awhile even if he won!

Another thing to consider is that Pendragon uses opposed rolls to resolve things whereas RQ uses alternating attacks. That makes the passion bonus in Pendragon even greater that the +10 (+50%) or x2 modifiers compared to RQG's +20%/+30%/+50% modifiers  since there won't be as many parried successes in Pendragon but there will be a lot more criticals. 

So Passion in Pendragon vs. RQG is greater risks but greater rewards.

 

Oh, and since were talking about what if's and simplification, I'd be for using skill categories, and making the default something like the current category modifier +10% or so.and make all skills in the same category start at the same percentage.. That is, if a character's Manipulation rating was 25% the  all his manipulation skills would be at 25%. and so on.That way we'd only need to track skills that got raised above the starting value. It would simply things a lot, and in most cases a difference of 5-10% doesn't mean all that much for skills starting at less than 30% anyway. Sure we can set some skill (like languages) to a default of 0%, and make some skills difficult if it matters, but for the most part we don't need to track every single skill.

I'd also port over RQ3: Land of the Ninja's Ki skills over fo Agents of Law. What that does is give such characters a higher chance of performing a skill perfectly (a critical success)which I think fits the concept and helps to counterbalance the magic that chaos followers tend to get.

I'd consider tweaking weapon and armor damage a little based on how lawful/chaotic a plane is. For instance a broadsword normally does 1D8+1, but on a more chaotic plane it could do 1D10 becoming more random. On a more lawful plane it could do 1D6+2 becomes less random. The trend could be continues to 1D4+3, 1D3+4, !D2+5 or a flat 6 points for a plane dominated by law. Note that this wouldn't alter the average damages, but would make thing increasingly more predicable as the Lords of Law gain more control over a plane. A character with a high allegiance to Law could benefit from this, kinda like the lawful weapons agents got in old SB. They would essentially be higher quality (increased damage) weapons that maxed out their lawfulness. The rule wouldn't change much but would certainly help with the feel of the game. Combined with Ki skills this would help Lawful characters hold their own against Chaos.

 

Oh, and since Jason didn't mention it' I'd incorporate his rules for exceptional gear from his Slaves of Fate conversion. 

 

 

 

[Jason D]

I've been a bit under the weather the last weeks but am thrilled to see such a wonderful discussion here! 

[Jason D]

On 10/28/2021 at 5:03 PM, Atgxtg said:

Oh, and since Jason didn't mention it' I'd incorporate his rules for exceptional gear from his Slaves of Fate conversion. 

I had utterly forgotten about those rules! 

 

[Atgxtg]

12 hours ago, Jason D said:

I had utterly forgotten about those rules! 

 

Shame on you. That guy writes some good stuff. 😉

About the only change I'd want to make to them would be to incorporate Stormbinrger's  existing rules for master quality weapons. The one where you can get an extra weapon die. It's a very old rule. MAybe use the "dice ladder" from demon abilities in latter editions of SB as the ladder for quality weapons.  

[Jason D]

On 11/5/2021 at 8:20 PM, Atgxtg said:

About the only change I'd want to make to them would be to incorporate Stormbinrger's  existing rules for master quality weapons. The one where you can get an extra weapon die. It's a very old rule. 

I don't have access to my copies of SB at the moment. Which edition was that rule in?