John E. Boyle's Queen's Heir (Children of Khetar series)

[Shiningbrow]

I've finally gotten my hands on the first 2 books (after having the first lost in the post months ago.....), after reading this recommendation in the Glorantha Movie Night thread (although, obviously, not a movie...).

For those not in the know, the author's acknowledgements starts with Greg Stafford, and then goes on to list the team who did RQ1/2 - Steve Perrin, Sandy Petersen, Ken St. Andre,  & Ray Turney.

Up to page 42, and so far really enjoying it.

Have those of you who have read it been able to make all the connections? Some are rather obvious (the prologue is obviously set in a Lunar city, probably heartland area - red coats, silver armour, scimitars. With a "Wurrunk" (Humakti) Sartarite "barbarian"). However, there was a reference to a couple of other cults/gods that I haven't quite worked out (although, I've got a guess...).

If John Boyle himself is here, please chime in! 😄

[Godlearner]

8 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Have those of you who have read it been able to make all the connections?

LOL, he actually wrote the whole thing using Gloranthan names and did a Find/Replace afterwards. Misses Zorak Zoran in one place 😂 and had to correct it after the release.

8 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

If John Boyle himself is here, please chime in! 😄

I do not know if he has an account here, but I will pass it along. 

[AndreJarosch]

I still have the original gloranthan text of this book in my files. 

[John E. Boyle]

Greetings, Shiningbrow.  Chime in on what?

[DreadDomain]

6 hours ago, John E. Boyle said:

Greetings, Shiningbrow.  Chime in on what?

It would be great if you could list a correspondence between nations/cultures/gods in Children of Khetar and Glorantha!

[Shiningbrow]

11 hours ago, Godlearner said:

LOL, he actually wrote the whole thing using Gloranthan names and did a Find/Replace afterwards. Misses Zorak Zoran in one place 😂 and had to correct it after the release.

OIC... Yeah, it looks it!

I haven't gotten to the missed ZZ yet... 

[Shiningbrow]

7 hours ago, John E. Boyle said:

Greetings, Shiningbrow.  Chime in on what?

Nice work! Very excited to read it!!! 

As @DreadDomainsaid, I'm not sure on a couple of associations, so I'm having to guess. Most are rather obvious though.

I should probably continue reading to see if I can work them out, though... 

[John E. Boyle]

This won't be comprehensive because in some cases there are no corresponding entities in Glorantha but let me see what I can do.

*Nations: 

Sartar = Khetar

Empire of the White Sun -Solar Empire roughly corresponds to the Lunar Empire

Holy Country = Thrace

Nochet = Byzantium

Praxian Tribes = Scythian Tribes

Trolls = Fomorians

Telmori = Lupaku

The Pharoah is much like the Minos, but the latter is more powerful

Heortland - Lycia

*Cultures

Khetar - hill barbarian

Scythians - nomads, dominated by horse riders

Solar Empire - civilized, many subordinate tribes/cities/nations dominated by a ruling caste that uses sorcery, divine magic, spirit magic and other abilities

Thrace - civilized, many cultures ruled by one man, the Minos, the sole surviving Lord of the Sea.  Just about any magic is allowed, as long as it isn't chaotic and you swear loyalty to the Minos.

The Seelie Court - The Bright Court - The Court of Light    non-humans dominated by elves and led by extremely powerful magicians who revere Beauty.

The Unseelie Court - The Dark Court - the Court of Darkness   non-humans dominated by fomorians and led by extremely powerful magicians who revere Strength.

*Gods - Greg Stafford told me that Hittite deities had a strong influence on the Lightbringers and other gods in Glorantha.  When I changed my book to be the basis for the Children of Khetar, I went back to the Thousand Gods of the Hittites, and found a number of familiar entities.  There isn't a one to one correspondence and you'll find some gods that have/are a combination of odd  elements, but you'll find many familiar gods with strange names.  There are influence from Thrace, Sumeria and Egypt on some of them.

You can find lists of the Hittite gods online, here are a few and the Gloranthan god who is the closest analogue:

Orlanth - Tarhunt, King of the Gods, Storm god

Humakt - Wurrunk, brother to Tarhunt, god of death and war

Ernalda - Sauska, goddess of the earth

Hunter - Rundar (Neith for the Egyptians)

Issaries - Nabu, god of Trade

Lhankor Mhy - A'as Enki or Enki - god of knowledge

Xiola Umbar - Brighid the Serene

Kyger Litor - Nyx, goddess of Night

Xentha - Eresh

Yelm - Istanu

Magasta/Poseidon - Aruna

Tillar - Storm Bull

Eritha - Inara

Chalana Arroy - Kamrusepa (approximate)

Pirwa - god of uncertain nature - Trickster

Babeesta Gor - Tisiphone, the Avenger

Zorak Zoran - Zarababa or Zababa, fomorian wargod,

 

I hope this answers some of your questions.

JEB

 

 

 

[Shiningbrow]

I think my... "problem..." is that I might be trying to make Gloranthan connections where they don't exist, and then sort of confuse myself.... So, more wondered how much isn't Glorantha, so that I can just stop trying to map it.

Of the places, I got most of what you have above - although I didn't get Byzantium/Nochet 😞

Still wondering where City of a Thousand Dragons is supposed to be! And is the Black Oak comparable to the Black Spear? Or have I mixed up my tribes???

Carchemish is Pavis??  (Edit... oh, no... Gazian is Pavis... then I haven't worked out Carchemish 😞 )

Hattusa?? Oak Rest?? Watchful Fort?? Again, I might just be trying to map too much of Glorantha onto it...

Most of the cults I've read I figured out pretty quickly (still not sure about Alas Tora). Joren's mum is obviously Vingan... given the red hair, personality, and propensity for throwing javelins (I hope she's a daughter of Tarhunt, and not just a Tarhunt in disguise!!!)

 

(Only up to p95 now.... so, no spoilers!! :p)

Edited January 16, 2022 by Shiningbrow

[John E. Boyle]

City of a Thousand Dragons = City of Ten Thousand Magicians in Aggar Province of Lunar Empire

Carchemish is Pavis, Gazian is Adari.

Alas Tora is an alias of Vithar, the Norse god of Vengeance.

Hattusa = Boldhome, Oak Rest and Watchful Fort have no direct analogs

Yes, Queen Miresthranna was the same as a Vingan before she married Dono but I don't really go into it in any detail.

Black Oak not quite the same as Black Spear, but I will be explaining that as the series progresses.  The Black Spear is a magical weapon of the Colymar tribe; the Black Oak is the throne of Joren's mother and her family.

Not bad, Shiningbrow.

 

[Shiningbrow]

1 hour ago, John E. Boyle said:

City of a Thousand Dragons = City of Ten Thousand Magicians in Aggar Province of Lunar Empire

I wondered that - but then thought it was too far away...

1 hour ago, John E. Boyle said:

Carchemish is Pavis, Gazian is Adari.

I was looking at Adari for Gazian... but then your description of the quarters, especially with the old outside walled section that no-one goes to made me change my mind!

 

[Beoferret]

John, thanks for chiming in on this thread. I enjoyed The Queen's Heir overall (and absolutely love the mental image of the hero running around for a bit wearing a spirit-infused wolfskin) and had a good time trying to figure out all the Gloranthan elements. Two questions though:

1) Do you have a map of the setting? I ask, since it's my understanding that you took the real world eastern Mediterranean map and then altered it significantly. 

2) Why wasn't this produced as an explicitly Gloranthan tale? I understand that you might/probably have some behind-the-scenes reasons you'd rather not discuss as to why - so I certainly don't want to pester you for an answer to this one. 

[John E. Boyle]

Greetings, Beoferret:

I'm glad you enjoyed Queen's Heir.  Let me see if I can give you coherent answers to your questions.

1. Do I have a map of the setting?  No, for the same reason I don't have an audio book version of Queen's Heir: The people I hired to make them walked off the projects and disappeared.  This happens much more often than you might think when dealing with people on the Internet.  Regarding the world that the Children of Khetar live in, imagine a Europe where the water level is 400 feet lower than it is now.  The British Isles (Ireland, the Isle of Man, Great Britain, the Hebrides, the Orkneys, the Shetlands are all directly connected to mainland Europe.  The Alps and the Black Sea don't exist.  The eastern part of what will be the Black Sea is steppe, the western part is a heavily wooded mountain range (Stygia) where the Rhine has its source.  It is the Rhine river that dominates Europe, flowing from what is now Varna west to the hills north of what is now Italy, then turning north to empty into the Baltic.  It is incredibly fertile riverine system that is the birthplace of empires.  France and Spain are much like they are today otherwise except I placed the river Tartessos in Iberia that flows from the Pyrenees to the Atlantic as some ancient sources recorded.  The eastern Mediterranean has been altered significantly, with the Narrow Sea (modeled on the Chesapeake Bay) running roughly north/south between what will be Greece and Asia Minor.

2. Why wasn't this produced as an explicitly Gloranthan tale?

Moon Design decided not to deal with it.  So I rewrote the manuscript to set it in an alternate Earth in the land of the Hittites (called Khetar by the Egyptians) and planned five novels in a series I called the Children of Khetar.  I published Queen's Heir in 2016 and the second book Raven's Blood in 2019.  Raven's Blood follows Joren's adventures after he flees Byzantium until he reaches Adria's City (Venice) as he begins to gather his own followers.  I am currently at work on the third book in the series, Dragon's Kiss, which tells of Belkara's adventures after she is parted from Joren up to the time when they are reunited.  That manuscript is about 3/4s done; I need to start looking for an artist for the cover.  I have the outline for the 4th book, Oathtaker's Hands, done and hope to have that one out by the end of 2023.  We'll see; life keeps getting in the way.  That book covers Joren's adventures from his time in Adria's City to his reunion with Belkara to his formal oath of loyalty to Silmurth (Mursilith, the true king of the Hittites).  Joren, Belkara and Silmurth are the Children of Khetar though there are others introduced in the series.

Let me know if you have any other questions.  I hope you'll read and enjoy the other books in this series.

John E. Boyle

 

Edited January 26, 2022 by John E. Boyle
Brevity and privacy issues

[Shiningbrow]

I just finished the 2nd - Raven's Blood.

Eagerly awaiting the next installment.

However, I must express my shock and horror at the complete lack of Ducks in these books... I do hope that will be rectified in the coming volumes!

[John E. Boyle]

No, I'm sorry to disappoint you but Ducks are Gloranthan canon and will NOT be appearing in any of my books.  Although if you look closely, you might be able to hazard a guess as to who might have been durulz in the original manuscript.

[Shiningbrow]

11 hours ago, John E. Boyle said:

No, I'm sorry to disappoint you but Ducks are Gloranthan canon and will NOT be appearing in any of my books.  Although if you look closely, you might be able to hazard a guess as to who might have been durulz in the original manuscript.

🤮🤮🤮💔💔💔

 

 

Nope, haven't noticed any characters that seem somewhat Durulz-ish. Belkara, perhaps ?😜

[John E. Boyle]

Svani, a character from Raven's Blood, was to have been a durulz in original outline.

[Shiningbrow]

Hey @John E. Boyle. How's the third book going??

[John E. Boyle]

Greetings!

 

The 3rd book is coming along, but not as fast as I would like, due to real life problems.  I've also decided to try something different in regards to the cover art for this book and I'm trying to decide on an artist.  I think it will need something different from the first two books.

[Shiningbrow]

8 hours ago, John E. Boyle said:

I think it will need something different from the first two books.

Like a duck! 😁

[Godlearner]

28 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Like a duck! 😁

In my nightmares. Don't even think of it John. 

[John E. Boyle]

No, no ducks.  Ever.

There will be dragons, though.

[John E. Boyle]

 

Dragons are an important part of the story told by the Children of Khetar.  There are seven types of dragon kind in this world:

1.       Bladefeet – velociraptors about a meter in height that run in packs, the most numerous of the dragon kin.

2.       Treebanes – the different types of plant-eating dinosaurs such as the ankylosaurus, stegosaurus and trachodon.

3.       Sirrush – the size of a large war horse, sirrush were used as guards and mounts for the imperial Dragon armies.  Although they cannot fly, they can run as fast as most horses and swim faster than most humans. The dragon depicted on the cover of Queen's Heir is an example of a sirrush.

4.       Sea dragons – sentient but tend to avoid both mankind and the mer peoples.  They grow big enough to carry human-sized riders but will rarely do so.

5.       Wyverns – poisonous and capable of carrying a rider while in flight, these aggressive carnivores aren’t intelligent but are still extremely dangerous and can be found in the service of the White Sun empire.  They are the only dragon kin that have been domesticated in any way since the fall of the Dragon Empire, a thousand years ago.  The ability of the White Sun to succeed where everyone else has failed is seen by many as an evil omen but is a point of pride for the mages who serve the White Sun. 

6.       Wyrms – intelligent and capable of flight, wyrms are powerful magicians in their own right and have been known to befriend humans even to the point of serving as their war mounts.  They are rarely seen in the lands of men.

7.       Greater Dragons – the children of Tiamat herself.  There are exactly eleven greater dragons and each has a name.   Each is capable of defeating armies and destroying cities by itself.  They are famous for never forgetting anything; their cunning and vindictiveness are the stuff of legend.  It is thought that they are all locked in a magical slumber and can only be awakened when the world changes again.

While the Dragon Emperors ruled, all dragon kin served the empire and were the cornerstone of imperial might.  Should anyone succeed in enslaving all seven of the dragon kin, their armies might be unstoppable.

[Shiningbrow]

19 minutes ago, John E. Boyle said:

While the Dragon Emperors ruled, all dragon kin served the empire and were the cornerstone of imperial might.  Should anyone succeed in enslaving all seven of the dragon kin, their armies might be unstoppable.

Reminds me of the Melniboneans.

[John E. Boyle]

The Empire of the Dragon casts a long shadow in my books, even though the Empire itself has been dust for more than 1000 years at the time of these stories.  One of the greatest kingdoms ever built by men, it filled the Rhine valley and extended from the Euphrates river to the slopes of the Pyrenees and from the shores of the Baltic to the tip of the Italian peninsula.  The Dragon armies were unstoppable and the magical power that the empire wielded was immense and uniquely varied.  One area where the Dragon’s mages excelled was in the lore of Blood Magic, lore that enabled them to harvest the magical energies released at death and store that energy for later use.   

That magic also helped them create what were often considered the perfect soldiers, warriors-slaves who bore the mark of a wyrm eating its own tail between their brows.  They were known as the Marked Ones or the Dragon-kissed.  They were enchanted before birth to be taller, stronger and tougher than normal men and women but were doomed by that same enchantment to live no longer than 40 years.  Both men and women among the Marked Ones found it difficult to reproduce, but for women it was a death sentence: childbirth always killed the mother.  This enchantment (or curse) could affect anyone conceived within the borders of the Draconic Empire and although only a small fraction of births were so marked, the imperial population was so great that Marked Ones filled entire regiments and for centuries they marched and fought and died for whoever sat upon the Black Onyx Throne.

Then Dragonfall came and a series of catastrophes brought down the Empire of the Dragon as completely as any enemy could have hoped.  Not even the Fairie Courts are certain of all the causes but they do know this: the dragons turned on their masters and the empire’s end was a bloody one.  With the empire’s fall, the enchantment that caused the birth of the Marked Ones was never renewed and thus grew weaker every century; fewer and fewer Marked Ones were born and many things once well-known became legend or were forgotten.  And so the long years passed.