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Skill base chances. What do you prefer ?


weasel fierce

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That's a very simple way that lets characteristics influence skills without giving you the problem of having to recalculate skills every time your stat changes. I haven't heard it being an optional rule though. I think the default is CoC like start percentages, with skill categories as optional.

SGL.

With the exception of POW stats don't change that often. So if you take POW out of the Category Modifers equations, changes are rare.

Also, category modifiers makes some spells more useful, and was factored into the cost of the spells when they was designed. STR and DEX enhancing spells are much more powerful when they up your combat stats too.

Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

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With the exception of POW stats don't change that often. So if you take POW out of the Category Modifers equations, changes are rare.

Also, category modifiers makes some spells more useful, and was factored into the cost of the spells when they was designed. STR and DEX enhancing spells are much more powerful when they up your combat stats too.

It's one of the most cumbersome (is that a word?) parts of character generation. Increased skill percentages from strenght and coordination spell was really a minor part of their effekt (and leads to more calculations!).

SGL.

Ef plest master, this mighty fine grub!
b1.gif 116/420. High Priest.

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It's one of the most cumbersome (is that a word?) parts of character generation. Increased skill percentages from strenght and coordination spell was really a minor part of their effekt (and leads to more calculations!).

SGL.

Well there is that idea about replacing base chances with a number derived from skill categories. For instance, Knowledge/Metnal skills could start off at INTx2% or INTx3%. I think I'll try that on my next campaign. Either than or tie skills to one stat and base them on the stat roll. So Agility skills could start at DEXx3% or even DEXx5%.

Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

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With the exception of POW stats don't change that often. So if you take POW out of the Category Modifers equations, changes are rare.

Depends on the magical system involved; RQ magic had qutie a few attribute boosting spells. Now you can just have those not effect skills, but at that point some of them become somewhat pointless (Dexterity comes to mind).

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Well there is that idea about replacing base chances with a number derived from skill categories. For instance, Knowledge/Metnal skills could start off at INTx2% or INTx3%. I think I'll try that on my next campaign. Either than or tie skills to one stat and base them on the stat roll. So Agility skills could start at DEXx3% or even DEXx5%.

Yep, and that's an idea I like!

SGL.

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Depends on the magical system involved; RQ magic had qutie a few attribute boosting spells. Now you can just have those not effect skills, but at that point some of them become somewhat pointless (Dexterity comes to mind).

Agrred, but those were easy to handle too. For the most part the POW cost of Coodination was the bonus. So Coodination 3 meant +3% to Attack, Parry, Manipulation, Agility, and Stealth, with a possible shift in DEX SR.

And I think that without CAT MODs the affected stats themselves become fairly pointless. But then, we both saw eye to eye on that point.

STR was a little tricker, since you had to divide the bonus by 2 cand cap at 10%.

But these were all temporary for the battle effects. As opposed to POW,. In RQ 2 we were refiguring categories modifers nightly. It would have been better to have just taken 10% off the base chances and add POW% to all skills.

But take out POW and most Cat mods change fairly infrequently.

Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

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Agrred, but those were easy to handle too. For the most part the POW cost of Coodination was the bonus. So Coodination 3 meant +3% to Attack, Parry, Manipulation, Agility, and Stealth, with a possible shift in DEX SR.

I'll just point out some of the responses you got in another thread about using base modifiers _at all_, and note that I saw people who didn't mind them doing them in downtime but found it irritating on the fly.

And I think that without CAT MODs the affected stats themselves become fairly pointless. But then, we both saw eye to eye on that point.

Yup.

But these were all temporary for the battle effects. As opposed to POW,. In RQ 2 we were refiguring categories modifers nightly. It would have been better to have just taken 10% off the base chances and add POW% to all skills.

But take out POW and most Cat mods change fairly infrequently.

Actually, once you got rid of the idea of temporary Power (and thus that spending magic points actually modified your skills) even that wasn't that bad, though it was still more common than other changes; of course that was RQ3 where it only effect two (or was it three?) skill modifiers anyway.

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I'll just point out some of the responses you got in another thread about using base modifiers _at all_, and note that I saw people who didn't mind them doing them in downtime but found it irritating on the fly.

Yeah I know. In some cases ironic too. People who don't mind using margin of success. for instance.

Actually, once you got rid of the idea of temporary Power (and thus that spending magic points actually modified your skills) even that wasn't that bad, though it was still more common than other changes; of course that was RQ3 where it only effect two (or was it three?) skill modifiers anyway.

Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

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Yeah I know. In some cases ironic too. People who don't mind using margin of success. for instance.

Yeah. I can see people having more trouble with that.

Temp POW never did modify skills. What was the problem was more RQ2. Generally everyone had a POW gain roll each night, and hitting a bracket typically meant adding 5% to everything, since POW was in most of the equations.

I had one player who wrote the POW modifiers on his sheet and figured all his skills without POW and factored it in "manually" to track the modifier. His character sheets lasted longer, too.

By each night, I assume you mean each session? Otherwise I'm a little confused there, since Power only advanced with other advancement, however often that happened.

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I had one player who wrote the POW modifiers on his sheet and figured all his skills without POW and factored it in "manually" to track the modifier. His character sheets lasted longer, too.

I've always done this with all skill category modifiers. It's easier to just add the skill + modifier on the fly for me than to shift all the skills up/down whenever a stat changes. Plus, I like looking at unadjusted skills when rolling for them...for some reason.

As to using spells in combat, we had character sheets with room for "standard configurations", so a character might having Broadsword + Bladesharp 4 + Strenght 3 written down with adjusted skills and damage.

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I've always done this with all skill category modifiers. It's easier to just add the skill + modifier on the fly for me than to shift all the skills up/down whenever a stat changes. Plus, I like looking at unadjusted skills when rolling for them...for some reason.

It probably _is_ easier if you can reliably do the addition on a consistent basis, but that does get tiring for most people. As to the second, in practice that was how the RQ3 experience worked; they just did it backwards by adding the modifier to the die roll.

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By each night, I assume you mean each session? Otherwise I'm a little confused there, since Power only advanced with other advancement, however often that happened.

Yup. Each night as in each session. Not game time. Sorry. :o

Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

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That's a very simple way that lets characteristics influence skills without giving you the problem of having to recalculate skills every time your stat changes. I haven't heard it being an optional rule though. I think the default is CoC like start percentages, with skill categories as optional.

SGL.

But I like skills going up when stats improve. Otherwise going fro DEX 10 to DEX 18 is sort of a waste of MPs.

Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

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I would be pissed off if a GM didn't let my skill percentage improve when a relevant characteristic improved. :shocked:

I would if he didn't let me know before I spent time training. If I new in advance, I wouldn't train. I wouldn't learn something like Coordination either.

Of course, it you look at BRP Games, the ones that let you improve your stats are generally the ones with CAT MODs.

Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

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I would if he didn't let me know before I spent time training. If I new in advance, I wouldn't train. I wouldn't learn something like Coordination either.

Of course, it you look at BRP Games, the ones that let you improve your stats are generally the ones with CAT MODs.

Of course even without those, some of them have somewhat dominant reasons for improving some stats; Dex tends to be the initiative controller, and Strength and Con are their own rewards; if there's a paranormal system Power usually pays for itself. Without heavy use of attribute rolls, it tends to be Int and App that are the complete losers, and Size's utility is all over the map.

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Of course even without those, some of them have somewhat dominant reasons for improving some stats; Dex tends to be the initiative controller, and Strength and Con are their own rewards; if there's a paranormal system Power usually pays for itself. Without heavy use of attribute rolls, it tends to be Int and App that are the complete losers, and Size's utility is all over the map.

Basically true. But without cat mods DEX for initiative is overpriced. STR too. While there is a STR+SIZ db, hitting 1D6 is tough. Hitting 2d6 is pretty much impossible. THat is, barrring magic. Even with magic, it is usally better to up the weapon that the STR.

CON Is it's own reward. I'd say SIZ is too. Without CAT mods SIZ is pure profit, since it is basically CON and STR rolled into one stat. True is doesn't help you with poisons (we disagree but going by the book here), but it does help with HP and Damage Bonus.

POW is almost always valauble, since there is almost always something to spend POW points on.

INT and APP Are the losers. APP still is, cat mods or not. Something needs to be done with that stat or it should be done away with.

Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

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INT and APP Are the losers. APP still is, cat mods or not. Something needs to be done with that stat or it should be done away with.

INT often limits your spells. I do think stats should influence the skills, I just think using them to deceide the base chance is a better way to go than cat. mods.

You would never train characteristics to increase your skill anyway - it's way to costly (timewise mainly), better to train the skill instead. You train STR for the damage mod, and DEX for the DEX SRM & rate of missile fire/number of attacks you can split (that was how it used to be at least).

APP is just flavour though, I agree there.

SGL.

Ef plest master, this mighty fine grub!
b1.gif 116/420. High Priest.

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Basically true. But without cat mods DEX for initiative is overpriced. STR too. While there is a STR+SIZ db, hitting 1D6 is tough. Hitting

As the primary contributor to melee damage, not so convinced about Strength; when it is true, its mostly because of the big gaps in how far you have to go to get a step.

Dex depends on the specifics of the initiative system. It was plenty valuable in and of itself for that purpose in Superworld 2 for example, and I have to assume it'd so be in any BRP version where first-strike benefits are strong.

2d6 is pretty much impossible. THat is, barrring magic. Even with magic, it is usally better to up the weapon that the STR.

But there's nothing usually stopping you from doing both.

CON Is it's own reward. I'd say SIZ is too. Without CAT mods SIZ is pure profit, since it is basically CON and STR rolled into one stat. True is doesn't help you with poisons (we disagree but going by the book here), but it does help with HP and Damage Bonus.

Sometimes its also got some downsides too, though, depending on the version.

POW is almost always valauble, since there is almost always something to spend POW points on.

Well, that tends to depend on how valuable interaction skills actually are in the game, but given interaction skills are the only skills APP applies to, you always have at least a point.

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INT often limits your spells. I do think stats should influence the skills, I just think using them to deceide the base chance is a better way to go than cat. mods.

I don't. THe problem is that once you generate the character changes in stats should affect the skills. Someone who is partially paralyzed and looses 5 points of DEX should loose some skills. Likewise if someone spends time in the gym building up his muscles, his Athletics skills should go up.

You would never train characteristics to increase your skill anyway - it's way to costly (timewise mainly), better to train the skill instead. You train STR for the damage mod, and DEX for the DEX SRM & rate of missile fire/number of attacks you can split (that was how it used to be at least).

Maybe you would never. Many of my players did. While you don't train DEX to imrpove one skill, the fact that it will improve 20 or 30 skills is a good reason and makes it cost effective. Training for DEX SRM or RoF is only worth it if a character is on the cusp.

APP is just flavour though, I agree there.

SGL.

Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

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You would never train characteristics to increase your skill anyway - it's way to costly (timewise mainly), better to train the skill instead. You train STR for the

Depends on how _many_ useful skills you have with that attribute modifying them; I saw outdoorsman characters in RQ who always trained their Dex if they could, because it effected almost everything they used as skills except for their Perception skills and the odd Knowledge. You wouldn't get 3-5% on one skill, but when you've gotten 1% on ten or twelve, it can still seem useful, especially since, unlike the skill, it won't improve by itself.

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I was never keen on allowing my players to take too long breaks for training, bumped the power levels to fast, without them really earning it, so that's probably were part of our differences come from.

For APP/CHA, while it doesn't really affect the game mechanics that much, I don't see a big reason to change it. Just include it more in play. The envirements reaction to an APP 18 and an APP 8 guy should be played out by the GM.

SGL.

Ef plest master, this mighty fine grub!
b1.gif 116/420. High Priest.

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I was never keen on allowing my players to take too long breaks for training, bumped the power levels to fast, without them really earning it, so that's probably were part of our differences come from.

What do you consider earning it. Sounds like you view character advancement as a reward for playing. Technically speaking it';'s the guys who take the time to study and train who earn it.

As for how fast they advance, in our groups is was more a matter of having enough spare cash to hire the tutors. Plus the fact that is skills go up faster that the player's ability to use them, it leads to a higher mortality rate.

I had one guy break 100% and immediately started going after two guys at the same time. Double teaming negates the 100 advantage, and two guys at 50% area threat to one guy who attacks twice at 50%.

The second guy who hit 100% concetrated on one-to-one fights.

For APP/CHA, while it doesn't really affect the game mechanics that much, I don't see a big reason to change it. Just include it more in play. The envirements reaction to an APP 18 and an APP 8 guy should be played out by the GM.

SGL.

I disagree. Basically why track it as a number if the number has no meaning. I'm strongly against tracking worthless stats, and I also don't like it when some stats are much more important than others.

The problem wiht "roeplaying it" is that is it unfair to those who have a good APP vs thouse who have a good STR, CON , or DEX. In the real world a high APP score opens many doors (some to bedrooms) and can get you out of a lot of problems. It can get you out of a traffic ticket, get served first in a coffee shop, or stop traffic while you walk down the street (see all of that happen).

In the game is it more along the lines of

"What her APP?"

"17"

"I want to go to bed with her"

We don't make swordsmen "roleplay" their STR or skill, we don't make scholars "role-play" their INT and knowedlge skills. We should hand APP the same way, or get rid of it.

Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

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I was never keen on allowing my players to take too long breaks for training, bumped the power levels to fast, without them really earning it, so that's probably were part of our differences come from.

Kind of makes the training system somewhat pointless then, doesn't it? If you're managing money in the campaign, they're still earning it, just indirectly. It also has the benefit of giving people some control over how they advance without encouraging people to hunt for excuses to use a particular skill.

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As the primary contributor to melee damage, not so convinced about Strength; when it is true, its mostly because of the big gaps in how far you have to go to get a step.

It isn't the primary contributor. THe weapon is. STR 's effect is as imprtant as SIZ and SIZ also adds to HP. STR is limited becuase of the big gap between +1D4 and +1D6. Since you need a 33 to get the +1D6, that makes training STR up really only vialbe for with stats close enough to hit a bracket. Training any stat up by more thatn a point of two becomes very difficult. Unless the stat was really bad off.

Dex depends on the specifics of the initiative system. It was plenty valuable in and of itself for that purpose in Superworld 2 for example, and I have to assume it'd so be in any BRP version where first-strike benefits are strong.

Not really. Not when you consider that going first and striking first are not the same thing. A character could train up weapon skills much faster and get a more concrete benefit.

But there's nothing usually stopping you from doing both.

Several things. For starters POW points. That sort of bumping really only comes in a high PW campaigns. Besides if bumping up DEX and STR weren;t providing benefits, a character would be better to pick up more bludgeon or bladesharp. Unless someone is sitting near a cusp, the benefit per magic point favors bladesharp.

Sometimes its also got some downsides too, though, depending on the version.

I can't think of any. If you aren't using Cat mods. Not in the human range. Gaints have problems with falling damage and are easier to hit, but without cat mods there isn't much that makes going from SIZ 12 to SIZ16 unappealing. Probably one reason why SIZ can't be trained.

Well, that tends to depend on how valuable interaction skills actually are in the game, but given interaction skills are the only skills APP applies to, you always have at least a point.

Nope/. Independant of interaction skills. THe reason being that any modifers for APP to skills arew minor. Someone with Persuade 30% and an 18 APP isn't as good as someone with APP 10 and Persuade 40%.

It is similar in some ways to the problem some games have with lifting skills. While any character can have a high skill score. The guy with the 6 STR shouldn't be able to lift more than the guy with the 20 STR.

Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

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