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BRP Space Combat (with Poker!)


Nikoli

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Hi Guys,

So this is an odd post. I had a mini brain-wave (or hair-brained scheme) the other night while thinking about various BRP games and how most, bar M-Space, lack space combat for ships. 

I quite like the idea of a system that is simple and abstract, yet can get the feel of scale with differently sized and powered ships. That’s when I had the logical idea: Poker! 😉

What if space combat was determined by the respective poker hand values of combatants? A battle of Fate, if you will. (Texas Hold’em has a River…like a River of Heaven? 😉 ) And what if the difference in poker hand ranks meant more damage to ship Structure (hit points)? If we used a ship scale, and maybe saw a dreadnought as a Cthulhu-sized beast, perhaps the ship weapon die type depends on scale (d6, d8, d10 etc), and also receives a number dice based on the degrees of success in the opposed poker hands. From a High Card all the way up to a Royal Flush, there are 10 ranks or steps in poker, so a possible 9 degrees of difference in opposed rolls. Perhaps ships get 5 cards each and then size and piloting contribute extra cards, from which the best poker hand is made. The degrees then determine damage. We would have criticals then for beyond 0 hits. Or maybe if the poker hand beats the others by 5 or more steps/ranks.

Perhaps you guys could help flesh this out. Maybe ships only get 2 cards each, by default, to have a chance of a pair, then a successful piloting roll, scan roll, etc., based on key crew stations, gives an additional card, up to maybe 5, and then the scale of the ship might contribute as much as 5 extra cards. So an Enterprise fighting a smaller ship would likely get a better hand each round due to a larger pool of cards. Chiefly the main difference mechanically will be Structure (hits), and armour/shields, and all the rest will be abstracted based on size. Crew rolls add cards. (This may require two combined decks for larger battles.) Imagine the hands of poker played out among each ship in a battle. Against multiple opponents, a high hand could work against all other combatants within range. (Perhaps each scale of the ship gives not just an extra card but one extra target/attack if against multiple ships. So again, abstracting the number of attacks and tech into the size and power of the ship. E.g., an Enterprise can get +5 cards and attack +5 opponents. It is then just narrated as phasers and torpedoes.)

So this is just an outline. In brief, opposed poker hands give damage based on the number of die rolled. The die type might vary based on ship size. (Starfighter; freighter; cruiser; etc.) Crew rolls add to the cards drawn. (One could play this out with a river too, as in Hold’em, a shared set of cards between all ships, rather than 5-card draw. But maybe 5-card draw is easier.)

What do you guys think? Is it perhaps workable? Characters contribute to the battle with crew skill rolls. It might just be a brain blip, but I think there is something here. Reminds me of Deadland’s method to cast spells with Hucksters. You’d roll a skill and then it would add cards, if I recall, and the value of the hand would determine the power and effect. Same idea here in principle. Feel free to chip in and flesh it out if you like the idea of such a system.

Here’s a list of poker hands, from highest to lowest: https://www.cardschat.com/poker-hands/ 

🙂 

 

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Hi, 
 
So, following on from the above, the following are some tentative rules for ship combat, built around cards, and heavily based on the western rpg game Dust Devils, which uses a similar mechanic. (I discovered it after researching card-based mechanics. I quickly applied it, so this is just a first and rough draft.)
 
Ships have 4 stats based around the suits from a deck of playing cards:
 
Spades (Defence Systems: Armour; countermeasures; the symbolism here reflects avoiding death and the grave!)
 
Diamonds (Intelligence Systems: computers; scanners; manoeuvrability; the diamond mind of Buddhism, perhaps…) 
 
Clubs (Attack Systems: Weaponry and targetting; ever get hit by a club?)
 
Hearts (Power/Energy Systems and Construction: Engines and Hull. Not for manoeuvres, which is Diamonds, but could determine warp speed/jump drive; self-explanatory symbol)
 
Systems are rated from 1 to 5 relative to the standard tech level: 1: poor/minor; 2: fair/moderate; 3: good/intermediate; 4: very good/advanced; 5: excellent/flag ship level. Vastly superior alien vessels might exceed these values by 1 to 3 points (e.g., Borg). Only capital ships can naturally rate as 4+ in any system. (Not including modifiers or crew rolls.) Fighters can be fast at 3 in Diamonds, but they lack other tech. Whereas a larger vessel might be slow, in some ways, but it has vast computing and countermeasures, etc. So it might be a 4 or even a 5.
 
Each category of suit represents a possible category of ship system that players can contribute to, via PC skill rolls, with a maximum of one roll per category. For example, a piloting roll might contribute to defences or manoeuvres, a gunnery roll to attack, a repair to energy, etc. The GM and player should decide narratively what each player will do during the round, relative broadly to helping the ship systems, and what category best fits their investment and what skill to roll. This will still require successful skill rolls. The categories thus reflect crew stations or similar. E.g., a player might say they want to reinforce the Hull, roll a relevant skill, and then increase Hearts by 1. (Or, if damage is taken, they may effect repairs of 1.)
 
If initiative is needed, draw a number of playing cards equal to both ships Diamonds ratings. Highest card goes first. In a tie, use the following from highest to lowest: Spades, Hearts, Diamonds, and Clubs. (If you wish something more memorable, you can use CHaSeD as a mnemonic to compare suits: Clubs goes first, Hearts second, Spades third, Diamonds last.) In a tie, it is simultaneous. However, combat is opposed, so initiative is likely not needed.
 
Ship combatants choose two stats and narrate their relevance. E.g., if attacking and strafing, combine attack systems (Clubs) and intelligence systems (Diamonds). Alternatively, using Hearts might reflect power being rerouted to shields. Basically, apply the ship stats narratively.
 
The result is the number of cards drawn PLUS any relevant increases from PC crew skill rolls determined previously. Stats that are not used in the attack, to which PCs increased for that round, will still be relevant when determining Damage, so be sure to track the ship’s CURRENT stat levels after all modifiers. (PC increases are per round, for one round, and so require consistent rolls. Boosts return to normal after the round. Boosts will impact Damage taken. For example, if Defenses were increased to 4, and a ship takes 2 damage to Defenses, then the new level is 2. Even for the next round when the increase is no longer operative. This reflects the momentary boost via the skill roll that provides a kind of buffer to that ship system against damage.)
 
Players and the GM can easily design ships in this system, using the ship stats and ratings to reflect their ship concept and power level. 
 
Example Combatant Ships: 
 
The Spectre (a slow but aggressive, intermediate-sized vessel)
 
Spades 3 (good shields)
Diamonds 2 (not agile)
Clubs 3 (respectable weaponry)
Hearts 3 (tough; reinforced hull)
 
 
The Millennial Sparrow (A fast but temperamental freighter, modified for weaponry and respectable defences. Has seen better days, though.)
 
Spades 3 (upgraded shields)
Diamonds 3 (agile)
Clubs 3 (upgraded, but illegal, weaponry)
Hearts 2 (old and temperamental)
 
At the start of combat, Combatant PCs/NPCs decide on the categories to influence that round when stating intentions. We shall assume the PCs roll and increase Spades to 4 (reinforce shields) and increase manoeuvres (piloting for flashy flying) by preparing to fly an attack formation that strafes near and pass the target vessel (in total, Spades to 4 and Diamonds to 4). The current totals are noted for the round.
 
Opposing sides then pick two stats, apply them narratively on a ship scale with their intention, and then draw a poker hand of cards, one card per number. E.g., The Millennial Sparrow uses Defences 4 and Clubs 4, thus drawing 8 cards. 
 
The Spectre does likewise (defences and clubs), staying put to lock-on, for a total of 6. (We shall assume NPCs will not roll here, for ease or heroic play. You might choose to roll for their crew skills.)
 
Both sides now attempt to create the best poker hand (from 8 versus 6 cards, respectively). Based on the resulting best poker hand, damage is determined.
 
Poker Hands and Damage Values
 
The hands below are ranked from highest at the top to lowest at the bottom. When comparing “tied” hands of the same rank (not damage value), the highest card among the hands wins. If the high card ties, compare suits. Suits rank from highest to lowest as follows: Spades, Hearts, Diamonds, and Clubs. (Same as initiative; you might change this to CHaSeD.) The highest rank, not damage, wins that round.
 
ROYAL FLUSH—5 highest cards in sequence, all same suit (5 damage)
 
STRAIGHT FLUSH—5 cards in sequence, same suit (5 damage)
 
FOUR OF A KIND—4 cards with identical rank (4 damage)
 
FULL HOUSE—3 cards with identical rank and
2 cards with identical rank (4 damage)
 
FLUSH—5 cards all same suit (3 damage)
 
STRAIGHT—Any 5 cards in sequence (3 damage)
 
THREE OF A KIND—3 cards with identical rank (2 damage)
 
TWO PAIR—2 cards with identical rank (2 damage)
 
PAIR—2 cards with identical rank (1 damage)
 
HIGH CARD—Highest available card (1 damage)
 
WILD CARDS—Jokers are Wild Cards. They count as any card necessary to complete any hand. The holder can also determine their suit in this system.
 
The winning hand deals the indicated damage which is then assigned by the LOSER among the ships systems, as determined by the winning hand’s SUITS. If the loser’s hand was within 2 steps of the winner (e.g., two pair versus a high card; full house versus a straight), the loser deals a maximum of 1 damage in return fire. If the loser is not within this loss range they deal no return damage. 
 
The suits of the winning hand, using only the relevant valued cards (so all 3 of a three of a kind; all 5 of a full house; but only 2 of a pair), are used to indicate the ship categories which are possibly damaged. The loser then assigns the damage total to one or more of those categories as determined by the suits involved in the winning hand.
 
For example, if The Millennial Sparrow got a straight, while The Spectre got a pair (outside of two ranks in difference), then the Sparrow does 3 damage (no return damage in this case). If the suits of all 5 cards in the straight (all matter for this particular hand) consisted of a Spade, Spade, Diamond, Club, Heart, then the Spectre can assign 3 damage to any one or more among these systems (Defences, Attacks, or Energy; repeat suits are ignored). The GM wishes to avoid Hearts taking too much damage, but needs weapons, and so deducts 1 from the ships Clubs, Hearts, and Spades. Damage is narrated based on the systems damaged in the attack. The battle continues next round.
 
Note: A ship with 0 Hearts is destroyed if it goes to -1. A ship with 0 Spades has no defences. A ship with 0 Diamonds is dead in space, has no main sensors, etc, but can fire if it has Clubs. A ship with 0 Clubs cannot fire at all, and will only draw any cards to outmanoeuvre or defend against poker hands, but will NOT do any damage as a winner or loser. Damage cannot be allocated to systems that have 0 rating, with the exception of Hearts to -1. Damage is narrated as weapons being destroyed, thrusters blasted, hulls breached, etc., as appropriate to the categories.
 
Advanced Rules
 
Maximum Damage by Attack System (implies scale, too)

The Clubs rating of the vessel (remember, only capital ships can go to 4+ in any stat naturally), also determines the maximum damage value from the poker hand. So a ship with Clubs of 3, which gets a Royal Flush, and with no other modifiers operating, will still only deal 3 damage maximum. Luck in poker will not mean that a starfighter can just blast a capital ship for 5 damage.
 
The Clubs rating also determines the number of ships that can be simultaneously engaged. So a ship with 5 Clubs can deal damage to as many as 5 ships (1 main plus 4 others) on the basis of one poker hand, but each additional ship reduces the damage by 1. So perhaps the first ship is damaged for 5, the second for 4, the third for 3, etc., to a minimum of 1. This reflects its superior firepower and capability to engage multiple vessels if needed.
 
Traits
 
Each ship has two traits. These are narrative descriptions, similar to ‘tough as nails’. You might apply a simile or adjective as fitting. So The Millennial Sparrow above might be ‘Tough’ and ‘Fast’. If the player argues that these traits relate to the situation, they can draw an extra card per relevant trait. This adds character to a ship.
 
Most ships also have a Disadvantage (not the Enterprise!): So above The Sparrow might have ‘unreliable power systems’. If the Black Joker turns up in the the opponent’s hand, the Disadvantage takes effect and reduces the player’s poker hand by 1D3 ranks on the poker table. This is in addition to being a Wild Card. (The suit can also be chosen.) Note, these are ranks, not Damage values. The minimum hand still applies. Perhaps the ships power suddenly drops and shields deplete as it sits momentarily dead in space…
 
Both Jokers are included in a deck and count as Wild. A Red Joker in the player’s hand reflects some brilliancy among the crew, or some narrative advantage that shifts the battle momentarily but significantly. The opponent’s hand is reduced by 1D3 ranks. (Red Jokers do not have such an effect for the GM; only the Black Joker does, and only if the ship has a disadvantage.) The Red Joker might also reflect the turning up of reinforcements who lend friendly fire. However, a crew may use a Red Joker to also disengage due to [technobabble] and going to warp, etc. The Black Joker can also do likewise for the GM ship. GM’s may rule that Combats are not escaped unless this occurs. Alternatively, they may rule that this joker effect occurs without a skill roll. So it’s a lucky escape. But they may be pursued.
 
Scale: if one ship vastly outmatches another, such as a Destroyer versus The Millennial Sparrow, or the Enterprise versus a Runabout, the bigger ship can make a hand from 3 stats, not just 2. This will likely result in a much better poker hand, as the larger ship might naturally draw as many as 15 cards. This is of course in addition to capital ships being able to have ratings of 4+ in a ship stat. (A capital ship will always have at least one 4 in ship stats, due to it being a capital ship. And often more.) At the GM’s choice, a ship stat scale of 1 to 6 might better reflect some variability between larger ships (so 4 to 6 per stat).
 
(Using this ship combat system, ships may come to need their own deck of cards. So one deck of cards per ship, due to the amount of cards being used. Reshuffle after each hand.)
 
Any thoughts would be appreciated. 🙂 It’s mostly a bit of fun. 
 
Here’s the Enterprise:
 
Spades 5
Diamonds 5
Clubs 5
Hearts 5 
 
Traits: Pride of the Fleet; Resourceful Crew (note: key crew skills are often 90% plus, for rolls to boost stats).
Disadvantages: None. 
 
(Scale: Against other capital ships, the Enterprise draws with two stats. Against smaller ships, it draws with 3.)
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Offhand, I don't have a good sense of what these large pools of cards will do to the probabilities.

My gut instinct, though, is that card-draw mechanics have too much "luck of the draw" variation to feel very science-fiction-ish.  One bad draw and "somehow" all your ship's systems are ... simultaneously offline, or something?

I *love* poker-draw mechanics for Wild-West and Weird-West themed games; and tarot-draw for occult games from Renaissance through modern era.  I'm just not feelin'  it for sci-fi, personally.

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1 hour ago, g33k said:

Offhand, I don't have a good sense of what these large pools of cards will do to the probabilities.

My gut instinct, though, is that card-draw mechanics have too much "luck of the draw" variation to feel very science-fiction-ish.  One bad draw and "somehow" all your ship's systems are ... simultaneously offline, or something?

I *love* poker-draw mechanics for Wild-West and Weird-West themed games; and tarot-draw for occult games from Renaissance through modern era.  I'm just not feelin'  it for sci-fi, personally.

Hi,

 

Yeah. I can understand that. It’s certainly not ‘on theme’ for space. The mechanic was skinned in Dust Devils for the Spy genre and also Noir. It’s true that here it’s just a mechanic; perhaps there might be a sci-fi themed deck. Even just the back.

Mostly, it’s designed to be an abstract system. As I was doing it, I noted it reminded me of Vampire the Masquerade, which I always loved as a system. So perhaps those stats might still be combined and, instead of cards for a poker hand, they might be a pool of D10s, with 6s being a success. Successes might equal damage. One could make it more turn-based with attack and dodge, etc. But for ease, I think opposed is quicker. So both combatants rolled a pool and counted successes.

I’m not completely wedded to a card mechanic. I’d love something quite abstract with a sense of a ship, via ship stats, and which is more narrativist. So a pool of D10s might work too.

 

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4 minutes ago, Mugen said:

I don't know if you system works, but, in my view, BRP is about percentiles and 3d6-based attributes.

I may be too narrow-minded, but I don't see myself drawing poker cards in a BRP game.

I agree. It was a slot-in system idea, such as for Cthulhu Rising. If one didn’t want to use M-Space to calculate speed etc, in ship design, let alone do the combat in a detailed fashion. But I’m not opposed to drawing cards in BRP per se. The theme of poker is, admittedly, not seamless. (Unless one had cosmically-backed cards!) 

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I had thought to use character-type stat analogues, where Dex becomes Manoeuvre, but I couldn’t quite figure it out. Recently, I thought the resistance roll table might help somehow, in comparing ship stats, as a resolution mechanic of some kind. But nothing concrete came to my mind.

I had bought Worlds Beyond, and it wasn’t a feasible system to me. Especially with ships. M-Space was much better, though it’s not ideal to trial-and-error thrusters etc with a calculator. I ‘could’ slot that ship system into another setting, but I was hoping I might find another way.

Recently I’ve been looking at Warpstar! as a ship combat system to slot in to BRP sci-fi games. It seems sufficiently simple to be quick. I like detail on a character level, but less on a ship level. The card idea was part of that ‘quest’. 🙂 

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The science-fiction game I've been playing is not M-SPACE unfortunately, but Coriolis: The Third Horizon. It has a pretty good space combat system which I won't detail here in this BRP thread, but I will mention some of the points which make it work, and which might be translatable into M-SPACE or another BRP variant.

The game is built around a group which owns a spaceship, so there are shipboard roles for all the PCs. This is achieved by having a small set of generic and transferrable skills in the game. Eg. PILOT is for all types of vehicles, including spaceships. RANGED COMBAT works for small arms and ship's guns (so your 'grunt' can also be your gunner). TECHNOLOGY allows you to be a shipboard engineer and an electronics tinkerer. And DATA DJINN (the game's hacking skill) is also used for sensor operation (I usually allow some bonus from OBSERVATION, the game's 'Spot Hidden' skill too). There's also COMMAND skill which is used quite ingeniously to make others' skill rolls easier, if they do what you 'command' them to do. So nearly all the PCs will have some role in a space combat, depending on their skills. I think something similar happens with the Star Wars game Edge of Empire. It's important from an RPG point of view to have as many players engaged as possible during a space battle.

Each turn your engine generates Energy Points (EPs) which your Captain allocates between the various shipboard roles. Usually there are plenty to go around but sometimes you might want to particularly emphasise one area, eg. evasive action. Then each role gets a chance to do one action, in a specific order, which uses up some EPs.  A lot of the ship's capability comes down to the skill of the crew, and good choices of actions and tactics.

Distances are abstract, expressed in distance from the enemy ship. The relative range can be altered by fancy PILOTING rolls on either side. Some weapons are more effective at different ranges. This system works fine with two ships, maybe gets a little awkward with more (but I've run it with 3 no problem).

Like M-SPACE the ships are composed of modules, some of which have certain effects in combat. Ships can also have special enhancements and flaws like turbo thrusters or a flaky computer, which can influence their performance in combat.

Ships have Energy Points and Hull Points. Some weapons affect either, or occasionally both. The ships in Coriolis don't have 'energy shields' like in Star Wars or Star Trek.

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2 hours ago, Questbird said:

The science-fiction game I've been playing is not M-SPACE unfortunately, but Coriolis: The Third Horizon. It has a pretty good space combat system which I won't detail here in this BRP thread, but I will mention some of the points which make it work, and which might be translatable into M-SPACE or another BRP variant.

The game is built around a group which owns a spaceship, so there are shipboard roles for all the PCs. This is achieved by having a small set of generic and transferrable skills in the game. Eg. PILOT is for all types of vehicles, including spaceships. RANGED COMBAT works for small arms and ship's guns (so your 'grunt' can also be your gunner). TECHNOLOGY allows you to be a shipboard engineer and an electronics tinkerer. And DATA DJINN (the game's hacking skill) is also used for sensor operation (I usually allow some bonus from OBSERVATION, the game's 'Spot Hidden' skill too). There's also COMMAND skill which is used quite ingeniously to make others' skill rolls easier, if they do what you 'command' them to do. So nearly all the PCs will have some role in a space combat, depending on their skills. I think something similar happens with the Star Wars game Edge of Empire. It's important from an RPG point of view to have as many players engaged as possible during a space battle.

Each turn your engine generates Energy Points (EPs) which your Captain allocates between the various shipboard roles. Usually there are plenty to go around but sometimes you might want to particularly emphasise one area, eg. evasive action. Then each role gets a chance to do one action, in a specific order, which uses up some EPs.  A lot of the ship's capability comes down to the skill of the crew, and good choices of actions and tactics.

Distances are abstract, expressed in distance from the enemy ship. The relative range can be altered by fancy PILOTING rolls on either side. Some weapons are more effective at different ranges. This system works fine with two ships, maybe gets a little awkward with more (but I've run it with 3 no problem).

Like M-SPACE the ships are composed of modules, some of which have certain effects in combat. Ships can also have special enhancements and flaws like turbo thrusters or a flaky computer, which can influence their performance in combat.

Ships have Energy Points and Hull Points. Some weapons affect either, or occasionally both. The ships in Coriolis don't have 'energy shields' like in Star Wars or Star Trek.

Interesting! Looking at the quickstart, I noticed the game uses stats from 1 to 5, and a pool of successes for each 6 rolled. In opposed rolls, opponent 6s cancel out your own.

The game has cards available, too. https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/336970/CORIOLIS-Combat-and-Space-Combat-Action-Cards
Probably just to speed things up. 

I think a space combat system built around cards, with differential power impacting the number drawn, would be cool. That was kind of the idea I was going for, albeit not with special cards. Maybe something kind of like Robo Rally (a great board game) for space. But likely more narrativist. Robo Rally uses a board, naturally, and movement and fire orders etc. A bit too random, though, for movement in an RPG. But I can imagine buying specific movement cards with a resource each turn, rooted in the ship’s stats. Perhaps cards of each type: attack, defence, manoeuvre, and repairs. Just a dream, though. (I admire game designers who make such dreams a reality!)

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19 hours ago, Nikoli said:

Interesting! Looking at the quickstart, I noticed the game uses stats from 1 to 5, and a pool of successes for each 6 rolled. In opposed rolls, opponent 6s cancel out your own.

 

Yes it uses a dice pool system of Attribute + Skill dice with a target of 6. For BRP you would use skill checks and opposed rolls. If you are using dice checks you don't really need cards as an additional randomiser.

19 hours ago, Nikoli said:

The game has cards available, too. https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/336970/CORIOLIS-Combat-and-Space-Combat-Action-Cards
Probably just to speed things up. 

 

Yes, they are similar to the Mythras combat actions cards, just showing the options available for each crew station. I suppose it's because ship-to-ship combat might be rarer than personal combat (though in my game the opposite has been true). I don't use them.

 

19 hours ago, Nikoli said:

 

 
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  • 3 weeks later...
On 2/14/2022 at 1:04 PM, Nikoli said:

I agree. It was a slot-in system idea, such as for Cthulhu Rising. If one didn’t want to use M-Space to calculate speed etc, in ship design, let alone do the combat in a detailed fashion. But I’m not opposed to drawing cards in BRP per se. The theme of poker is, admittedly, not seamless. (Unless one had cosmically-backed cards!) 

You might want to look at some card based RPGs like TSR's old SAGA system  RPGs, or R. Talsorian's Castle Falkenstien. They might be a better fit than BRP. 

I think for your card idea to really work for BRP you would need to translate the cards into some sort of die roll. Basically as some sort of enhancement add on to the core rules rather than an alternative. Kinda like how Pendragon uses the card's in the Feast Deck. 

 

What you could do is set the value on the card as a difficulty modifier (say +25%-5 times the value of the card, so that a 5 would be -0%) or opposing skill score (say 10% times the value?), and maybe use the suit to determine the type of task and skill required (something like Spades for maneuvering, Clubs for Weapons, Diamonds for Hull/Engineering, Hearts for Tactics). Face cards could mean some sort of special event, as could joker cards.

The idea would be that the player would draw one or more cards to see what obstacles needed to be overcome during the encounter, and perhaps set the parameters for the encounter (say type of enemy ship, how hostile it is, skill of it's crew, distance away when detected, etc). For instance a player could draw three to five cards put them in descending order of difficulty and make skills rolls to see how far away the enemy ship is when the PCs detect it. 

 

Alternately you could use the cards to resolve things, but have skill rolls somehow affect either the hand size or the "draw". For instance a player who makes their weapon skill roll could draw a extra card per success level) and play the best one for their attack. But in that case I think ship's will need to be give card ratings for various systems. 

 

Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

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