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Conflicts Between Counties in the Time of Uther


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While Uther lives, do knights from within Logres raid each other or pillage? 

I'm curious how people run the game in terms of such conflicts, the fallout from such actions, Uther's thoughts on the matter if it happens, and so on.

I'm finally getting a chance to start the Great Pendragon Campaign and wondering how some of the Adventures listed at the end of the Phase play out in terms of conflicts between knights within the boundaries of Logres.

Thanks!

"But Pendragon isn’t intended to be historical, just fun.
So have fun."

-- Greg Stafford

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In David Larkins' Matter of Britain campaign (Esoteric Order RP podcast), Sir Blaines of Silchester raids the Salisbury PK manors during the Uther period, and the players counter-raid his Silchester manor.

 Greg et al. talk about some of the details of raiding here, and Greg speaks of raiding Britons and raiding in the Uther period as expected things. On raiding during the Anarchy, Greg says:

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Please allow me to do a bit more [explaining].
The Raiding that is done in the Anarchy scenarios of GPC is not just a manor or two going off. It is a part of a long, on-going war where these things happen all the time. Large bands of men--a couple of dozen knights and couple of hundred footmen go off to pillage their neighbors.
Smaller raids, on neighbors, should net smaller rewards.

 

There is some good discussion of raiding (including during Uther period), by Greg, @Morien et al. here.  Morien says:

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This is how we have handled these question Ín Our Campaign (IOC) (and also some dirty tricks that the enemies have indulged in):

1. Cooperation between the manors: Definitely! If there is time. And if the knights are home. And if the enemies are not cooperating as well, like attacking all the manors at once. Or if they are not out in overwhelming force that could defeat the responding contingents in detail. All of which have happened in one time or another.

2. Collective raiding: Sure, I'd allow a collective group raiding. In fact, that is what the PKs tend to do. Of course, that means they will also have to share the loot, and a bigger group is easier to spot, and it would likely invoke a bigger response. Also, enemy can cooperate as well, like the point 1). One big raid allows them to focus their attention to it, while 5 small raids forces the enemy to decide what to respond to (or split their forces, of course).

3. Earl's help: Sure, the Earl will help. That is his part of the feudal bargain, to defend his vassals. Ultimately, though, if the knight is screaming for help at every small raid, the Earl might get a bit miffed. After all, the vassal's part of the bargain (as I see it) is to protect the manor as well. If he is unable to do that, perhaps the Earl starts hinting that a better man should be found. Also, I -do- see it as a time issue, too. Depends on the location, of course, but IOC the PK manors are right on the Levcomagus border. There is very little warning before a raid can reach them, and by the time the word reaches Sarum, the raid is probably already in progress. Assuming it is a bigger one, it will take the Earl some time to call enough vassals up, and then they must ride to the border. All of this can easily take a couple of days. Which is IOC the reason why the previous generation spent some money building moats and palisades, to give them a fighting chance to survive long enough for the Earl to arrive. If it is a smaller raid, well then, the enemy is hardly going to wait long enough for the Earl to arrive in any case, now are they?

4. How will a county react: IOC, badly. Granted, there can be extenuating circumstances. If the knights involved have a genuine grievance with one another, the neighbors (especially) and the higher ups might shrug and leave them to it, figuring it is personal and hence unlikely to spill over to the other, uninvolved, people. Occasional small raid might get chalked up as 'boys will be boys' and only get a stern fistshake. But if the raiding is large-scale or continuous, why then it is hurting the county. The neighbors start wondering if next year it will be them in the crosshairs (as the other manors are getting picked clean) and the Earl/Duke looks weak for not being able to protect his vassals. Also, he is losing knights, as the manors being raided get theirs killed/wounded/bankrupted/too scared for the safety of their manor to answer the muster. It will simply not do.

5. Repercussions: Apart from being the target du jour for any enemy county knight on the road, these PKs would swiftly become very unpopular with the Salisbury knights living close to the Silchester border. 'Oh, so you guys raid, get loot, stir up the hornet's nest and then leave us to be stung? Thank you so very much, ********!' Good for internal County politics right there. Also, nothing prevents enterprising Silchester knights to stir up trouble elsewhere... After all, if they can do it to Silchester, what is preventing Somerset or Dorset from doing it to them? With some extra knights from Silchester willing to help pro bono. Finally, if the PKs make a habit of raiding their neighbors, the Anarchy will be quite fun for them... They will find allies very hard to find, and the Saxon raiding parties might have Silchester knights riding with them, gleefully torching Salisbury. Also, if they are making too much of a nuisance of themselves, remember that Silchester is bigger than Salisbury. If it comes to all out war, Salisbury is going to get stomped. The Earl knows this. The retaliation 'raid' might not be a small raid of 1 knight and 50 peasants, but an actual army of, say, 100 knights and 200 footmen, turning the Eastern Salisbury to cinder. The Earl has a big incentive to prevent things boiling over to that.

EDIT: Oh, they are planning up on stirring Marlborough and Silchester BOTH? Well, good luck for them in Anarchy. With Cornwall in the West, Marlborough in the North, Silchester in the (North-)East and Saxons in the South(-East), they will have their work cut out for them. Add some counter raids from Dorset (egged on by SIlchester) and they will certainly reap what they sow. 🙂

 

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Thanks for the links and info.

Sir Blaines was my go-to on this front. (Everything is lined up in terms of motivation.) But I wasn't sure how their lords and the Pendragon would see such conflicts.)

But I've made a shift in my thinking on how to kick off the campaign. The key is I'm looking at The Uther Phase as a discrete unit of campaign. It ends in a bloody and horrible disaster, a cliff-hanger of a cliff-hanger for the PCs. Conflicts that had been the focus for years were finally going to get resolved... and now those conflicts will be torn open for the next ten years, with things even worse than they were before!

And what are those conflicts? The war with the Saxons, and the avarice of British knights and nobility to grab what they can when no king stands to hold conflict at bay.

In the past few years, when I've thought about starting the GPC, I wanted to start things someone easily: the introductory bear hunt, perhaps, or The Adventure of the White Horse. But I think now I want to get to the conflicts at hand, with plenty of mud and blood, as soon as possible. So we'll do character creation, send them off on patrol, have them encounter Blaine and some of his knights taking advantage of the uncertainly and despair after the Battle of Mt. Damen with a raid into Salisbury. I really like this because it shows the fragility this world's order. Yes, Uther Pendragon is the King of Logres. Yes, the Saxons are knocking on their door. But even then, things are still fraying at the seems. And the efforts to unite Britain, which is what the phase is all about, ultimately will fail. 

"But Pendragon isn’t intended to be historical, just fun.
So have fun."

-- Greg Stafford

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I'm also curious about this as I'm trying to set some dominos up for my game.

Book of the Warlord touches on this a bit (page 30). Basically, Uther tolerates a certain level of feuding between barons, including barons raiding each other's estates (or even outright occupying holdings). If he decides a feud is getting out of hand, or if one of the barons makes an appeal to him, he might try to settle things. (Uther and the barons probably also see raids to some extent as something like 'live-fire exercises'.)

I'd expect that at least some barons accept a certain level of feuding between their vassals as well. As above, so below. (If you decide Ulfius thinks that way, then that opens up another possible avenue against Sir Blains.)

I think fallout would tend to be limited as long as damage is relatively minor (in Book of Estate terms, mostly raiding and a bit of pillaging, to minimise permanent damage) and precisely targeted (to avoid bringing in other parties). Of course, feuds have a tendency to escalate...

The Roderick-Blains feud (as distinct from the underlying tribal Salisbury-Silchester rivalry) also has the interesting wrinkle that the two main parties aren't equals. If Blains was a minor baron in his own right, Roderick could crack him like a nut. If the feud was between Roderick and Ulfius, it'd be a more equal contest (though Uther would be quicker to intervene). As it is, Roderick probably isn't applying all the pressure he can bring to bear, so as to not provoke Ulfius, while Ulfius (and Uther) are sitting back to see how Blains handles it with his own resources. (That's my take, anyway.) But if, say, some Salisbury knights get lost and pillage a Silchester manor that doesn't belong to Blains, everyone will be upset.

Edited by Uqbarian
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19 hours ago, creativehum said:

I'm finally getting a chance to start the Great Pendragon Campaign

Congrats! Good luck !

5 hours ago, creativehum said:

he key is I'm looking at The Uther Phase as a discrete unit of campaign. It ends in a bloody and horrible disaster, a cliff-hanger of a cliff-hanger for the PCs. Conflicts that had been the focus for years were finally going to get resolved... and now those conflicts will be torn open for the next ten years, with things even worse than they were before!

Exactly. That's why you should start slowly. IMO, during Uther's reign, raiding between different estates is tolerated. A light raiding, in order to maintain the strength of the knights. Steal some sheeps, burn some huts. Good fun for young men full of viguor. Of course, things could degerenate quickly, but the king will not allow it. If he can crush cornwall, he can crush you.

During the Anarchy, there is no rule anymore, no daddy-king to say "stop". The lords are left to their own morals. Old feuds could now explode, even if it's really stupid with all this Saxons around.

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In the GPC the Adventure of the Raid/The Pillage (p66) is set at a point of your choice in Uther's reign, while at the back of the 5.2 rulebook the Skirmish of Allington is a raid by Sir Blains on Earl Roderick's land.

So yes, there's certainly some raiding and pillaging going on while Uther's around.

 

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