Personal additions to Sorcery

[JRE]

As I have mentioned already, I am slowly converting my campaign to RQ:G. As the main character is a Jrusteli university student doing intern work for some diplomats/agents of the Middle Sea Empire in Kethaela, sorcery plays a big role. I do not see any big problems with changing sorcery rules to conform to RQ:G, except that I will need to add quite a few more enchantments to make his grimoire. The other character, a graduate of Slontos Universal Eurmal School / Temple, acting as his bodyguard, wingman and nemesis, has some spells but never did anything with them, focusing in Spirit magic and some Rune magic. 

The main thing missing, in my opinion, besides a ton of spells more to represent the widespread RQ3 and MRQ sorcery, are status positions similar to priest / Godtalkers and Rune X, with mundane and magical benefits and obligations. It feels convenient from a game reward balance point of view. I would propose two stages too, based on the old RQ3 sorcery discussions, and also because that is what the character actually was working with, but reversing them a bit.

The first level would be actual Sorcerer, or Zzabur for caste schools, with the requirement of having one spell at 90%, obviously RW school language at 90%+, as well as Meditation, School Lore and five mastered Runes and techniques. The Sorcerer must prepare a grimoire with at least six spells, that means six sorcery spell matrixes. Usually that means a book, but certain schools may prefer tattoos, engraved breastplates, or a quarterstaff of power.

I would apply several benefits to sorcerers. Improved POW rolls if they have a religious role in the community, only for schools with a religious bent, and the subsequent time requirement. Those also will have extra MP after the ceremonies, a good moment for casting long lasting magics.

The second benefits are school dependent, access to a bonus technique and rune, over the maximum for INT, and a mechanical bonus for casting tied into the Grimoire, such as bonus intensity for spells cast through the grimoire, only to be used in one specific technique, or a smaller bonus to free INT, to a flat bonus to spellcasting certain spells or on certain conditions. Casting through the grimoire will always take an extra round, as you page through it, or find the right tattoo.

Finally I would propose, purely as game balance, that Sorcerers can keep a spell ready in their mind, occuppying Free INT equal to its total intensity, so it can be cast in SR5. Just to give lone sorcerers a survival chance. It can be kept indefinitely, but the Free Int used in holding it is unavailable till the spell is cast. Obviously you cannot get grimoire bonus in such a "ready" spell. The roll is made at the time of casting, so you do not know how good it is till the moment of truth.

The top level is Magus. A magus must create a familiar and master (90%) six spells in their grimoire, though they can add more. They must have mastered their INT maximum of Runes and techniques, including the school bonus. They can also create additional grimoires from other schools, if they get to join them, though they will not get their rune and technique bonuses. Familiars can hold a "ready" spell for their masters, as described above for sorcerers, but that also limits their Free INT. They can use their familiar's POW instead of theirs to resist magic, if it is higher and the familiar is within POW meters. Preferred familiars will depend also on the school, and I am still unconvinced if you can have only one Familiar at a time, or more. Most schools have their Magi with either teaching or religious functions, so usually they are quite busy. A few schools allow solitary independent Magus, but they will not get any community support.

Familiar creation is a ritual that must be learned, combining Create and Tap techniques, similar to RQ3, but limited to animals or inanimate objects. The ritual must succeed and casting it always costs 1 POW. The animal awakens without INT expense, but you must sacrifice one characterirtic point of your choice. You can increase any of its characterirtics, including INT (maximum 18) but you must reduce a characteristic of yours, including the racial maximum, the same amount. An inanimate object will receive a spirit of law, identical to an allied spirit (random INT, POW and CHA), by increasing at least its SIZ (depending on its size) and if you want it to act independently, other characteristics, by sacrificing in the same way. Other aspects are identical to allied spirits

Other schools may have stranger familiars, such as golems (requiring less sacrifice for its SIZ), elementals or Godtime animals. But no powergamers making familiars out of Nymphs, Wraiths, Demons or other abominations. An awakened animal or a potentially mobile ally spirit on an object. That should be enough. You need to keep the animal friendly, though you can use sorcery, if the duration is enough to last the ritual. If your luck holds it still would allow you to have Death Lizard as a familiar. 

The PC is still at sorcerer level, so no big concerns yet about the details of Magus status.

What do you think?

[svensson]

Well, you're WAY more comfortable than I am with Sorcery in general. Every time I tried to build an adventuring Sorcerer in RQ3, I seemed to miss the mark and find the character with key gaps in their spells and abilities.

And as I read the rules of RQG, Sorcery as a magic form has significant changes... changes to the basic functions of spells and how they're applied. Where in RQG there were some commonalities in spells, in RQG it's almost a totally different theory of magic altogether.

So obviously I can't answer your questions or provide any constructive help with the issues you bring up. But do want to congratulate you on assembling an interesting character with very interesting and significant plot points to work with. You've gone places and succeeded where I often get lost, so kudos very much to you.

[Godlearner]

Done this in the write up of Neptisus in Denarius the Minter (JC supplement on Drivethru)

There are several issues I ran into with making sorcerers and I feel that various levels would have a way to overcoming these limitations.

Some additional examples (not limited to and should differ for various schools)

Allow species maxing INT for the number of spells you can keep in memory.

Allow species maxing INT as basis for FREE INT

Allow sorcerer to use his Magic Rune instead of any one Elemental Rune or Power Rune as Implied

Always resists magic with their species maximum POW and not their current POW

Worship (Invisible God) skill check to use a portion of the magic points donated by all followers in the weekly ceremony (25% on normal, 50% on special, 75% on critical)

Worship (Invisible God) skill check to use additional Free INT to cast spells (+1D6 on normal, +2D6 on special, x2 INT on critical)

Magi are equivalent to priests he is eligible for an Allied Spirit. Such Allied Spirits are somewhat different from standard cult allied spirits as following:

•    When a magus first obtains their office, they can attempt to gain a familiar as part of the investment ceremony.
•    The spirit is not provided but must rather be captured by the sorcerer and bound into an animal or an item.
•    No person can have more than one familiar at a time. 
•    If it is killed or destroyed, a new one may be obtained, but this is a matter for heroic deeds on the part of the magus.
•    A familiar is in continual mind-to-mind communication with the sorcerer. 
•    They can use each other’s magical abilities, including INT (to store spells), and magic points. 
•    The priest can see through the familiar’s senses (and vice versa). 
•    A sorcerer can cast spells through the familiar at any distance.
 

 

[JRE]

The only way to get this to work is to use it, and see what works and what does not. 

I considered most of the options Godlearner mentions, but I found it difficult to justify improving Free Int without a good reason, or making sorcerers magic resistant. A sorcerer normally would rely on neutralize spells rather than its own POW. However for Magi I like the idea of the defensive familiar.

With Enhance INT you can get INT +5 for a while, so, with enough MP you can get Intensity 8 for a season, without enchanting further matrixes, or INT +3, which also means Neutralize Armor 8, Neutralize Spirit Magic 8, or Boon of Kargan Tor 8 (+2D6 damage for a season, or +1D6 for 4 years).

I would prefer to have more specific, Gloranthan effects, such as the Aeolians have +10% and one extra intensity in all sorcery with the Air rune, or that a Rokari that respects the caste limitations has +2 Free Int, rather than getting it just for being a sorcerer.

It requires planning and a ton of MP, but it gives certain huge long lasting bonus to a party, specially as other players can use other magic such as speedart of bladesharp with the sorcerous bonus. The proposals for sorcerer and Magus try to let a sorcerer some autonomy, though that is really what other party members are for. The INT 18 limit of 7 techniques and runes is quite limiting, at least if you do not want characters that require hundreds of MPs. Even then, with a minimum of ten runes to access all and six techniques, I felt a Magus needed more, but no mortal will master more than a few runes.

For Worship Malkion or IG, depending on the sect, I would use a lower percentage, to make it more of a pyramid and assuming you may have, for example among the Rokari, 5 or 6 levels between Leblanc and you, and all will take a portion. I would be generous with worshippers MP, so a town with fifty adults may yield 500 MP. I would let 25% to stay at the kirk, but it must be shared among the leading worshippers. 25% for the parish, 25% for the bishop or whatever they are named, and 25% for the watchers, including Leblanc. 4 is how the West arrange things, from castes to cardinal directions.

[Godlearner]

1 hour ago, JRE said:

improving Free Int without a good reason

The reason is simple, as the sorcerer becomes more attuned to Runes, his capacity to manipulate and channel power expands.

 

1 hour ago, JRE said:

or making sorcerers magic resistant.

Why not? Rune Lords get this ability.

2 hours ago, JRE said:

I would prefer to have more specific, Gloranthan effects,

Sure, the abilities I listed are samples and I would give different one based on schools

[JRE]

Free Int is so powerful that allowing anything over 25 starts to break the world, as you get duration in centuries and range over a thousand kilometers. So actually doing some numbers, I think any increase in Free Int should be reserved for Caste benefits, and we need a different mechanical effect if I want sorcerers to use grimoires.

As we work to convert spells, our impression is that Sorcery is less broken than RQ3, if only by taking out the general multispell and adding the multispell effects in the spell descriptions, but some spells are already broken in the rulebook (Steal breath, for instance), and the invitation to make your own spells is a pandora box. It will be compoundedd, but I will do it anyway we add the compulsory but not present in the rulebook Project Sight or Remote viewing, the spell all sorcerers that read the rules want to have, though a Farsight spell could do well enough.

My design of Remote viewing (Summon Truth Movement, though I could accept Combine Truth Movment), similarly to other spells, would move at 12 m/round, but I would have each 4 points of Intensity add 12 m to speed, just because it is no fun to have the sorcerer spend an hour to move the viewer to wherever it needs to be when they have Range and Duration to spare. No fun. It can de detected and countermeasures would be effective, but usually you can put enough range (counted from where the sorcerer is standing). A potential limitation could be that the viewer does not fly but moves as the sorcerer, but besides making islands surprising anti magic fortresses, what happens if the sorcerer actually can fly?. Flying viewers adds the Predator drone remote attack to Glorantha, but I fear it corresponds to what the Glorantha myths and stories tell us. Crystal ball or mirror a must.

The character I am converting  is peaceful and detests violence, so he uses Palsy a lot, I suppose that as most RQ3 and derivatives sorcerers, as well as  Command Human and defensive spells, healing and utility spells. He however has fire bolt for magic duels and undead clean-up. It will be a modified finger of flame that is instant rather than having a duration, but starts at 1d6 at strength 1. Strength 13 allows either a 4d6 bolt of fire or 2 3d6 ones, 3 2d6, or 4 1d6. Hit by DEXx5, can be dodged or parried by a shield if aware of the attack. All bolts go to the same target, but it makes dodging or parrying harder.

Still working on Palsy. The doubt is whether to keep Strength against hit points in the location as in the past, or to add some full body palsy effect. Lacking multispell really decreases the effectiveness of the spell, but it was too powerful anyway. Still working on the Runes. Command Human is too similar to, obviously, Command Human. Separate Human Life requires a less useful technique and three components seem too much for a simple spell. Summon Stasis is my current favorite and adds the possibility it could function on anything, even undead or constructs, as a compensation for decreased efficiency and that you need to succeed in two tests, POW vs POW and Strength vs HP. The player has the Movement rune, so even if the MP cost is high, at least it does not change too much the player concept. 

[Shiningbrow]

5 hours ago, JRE said:

Still working on Palsy

Why isn't it Command/Summon Movement (with maybe a Man Rune thrown in?)

 

20 hours ago, JRE said:

The Sorcerer must prepare a grimoire with at least six spells, that means six sorcery spell matrixes

Why a matrix? Why not just the Inscriptions?

 

5 hours ago, JRE said:

Free Int is so powerful that allowing anything over 25 starts to break the worl

You're lucky they haven't found the new LM spell "Intellect" which doubles INT (similar to the other stat doubling Rune spells like Charisma and Bear's Strength) 😛

[Godlearner]

8 hours ago, JRE said:

Free Int is so powerful that allowing anything over 25 starts to break the world, as you get duration in centuries and range over a thousand kilometers.

You are exaggerating. Duration is 1 year at Int 17, at 20 its 8 years and doubles for every +4 Int after that. The current Range is 100 kilometers at 20 Int. In game terms I have never seen players cast anything that lasts more than 1 year and Range of more than a couple of kilometers. 

8 hours ago, JRE said:

As we work to convert spells, our impression is that Sorcery is less broken than RQ3,

My impression was that it was just as broken as it still relied on FREE INT. The runes were a nice addition, but the fact that there is no way to have a balanced spell selection because of the limitation on how many runes and techniques one could master, more than made up for it. 

[JRE]

9 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Why isn't it Command/Summon Movement (with maybe a Man Rune thrown in?) 

No man rune because it can work on other living beings, and as I mentioned, it could be good it worked in mobile non-living beings. I think I allowed it in the past working on Delecti's zombies as well... I have realized that Dispel Movement and Summon Stasis are functionally identical, but I still prefer Summon, as it is the magic that freezes people, not something taken from them. Command movement would move people, and I would expect that summon movement would make people move in ways they normally cannot.

 

9 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

 

Why a matrix? Why not just the Inscriptions?

To force a certain POW expenditure, as the other intermediate ranks require too. If it is a matter of balance, it cuts both ways. If paper, a candidate for a long duration neutralize Fire. And it benefits the Sorcerer / Adept. by having their best spells easy to cast.

 

9 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

 

You're lucky they haven't found the new LM spell "Intellect" which doubles INT (similar to the other stat doubling Rune spells like Charisma and Bear's Strength) 😛

I ignore it. As mentioned  that would allow a strength 20 spell that lasts two seasons, from Command Human to 5d6 damage or ignore all armor of 10  or less, and probably ignore 20 or 30 points of armor. So it does not apply IMG. 

 

[JRE]

6 hours ago, Godlearner said:

You are exaggerating. Duration is 1 year at Int 17, at 20 its 8 years and doubles for every +4 Int after that. The current Range is 100 kilometers at 20 Int. In game terms I have never seen players cast anything that lasts more than 1 year and Range of more than a couple of kilometers. 

My impression was that it was just as broken as it still relied on FREE INT. The runes were a nice addition, but the fact that there is no way to have a balanced spell selection because of the limitation on how many runes and techniques one could master, more than made up for it. 

I did not see duration that way, as MP only changes +1/+2, each double, and that is how it works up to 20, but in any case 8 years for a typical game is like eternity. 

Range, if the formula keeps applying will be 165 km at 21, 265 at 22, 430 at 23, 695 (700) at 24, and 1135 at 25. That allows you to have the coolest lighthouse or your own ice age at a cheap level.

Well, I liked it when I read it, but even cutting down the effect in base 4 and limiting Free Int, it is open to exploitation. And not so fun for players, except the kind that has an excel file with the MP distribution and the crisis, season and year spell casting cycle. 

[Godlearner]

1 hour ago, JRE said:

Range, if the formula keeps applying will be 165 km at 21, 265 at 22, 430 at 23, 695 (700) at 24, and 1135 at 25. That allows you to have the coolest lighthouse or your own ice age at a cheap level.

Sure, why not.

[JRE]

Going further down Magasta's pool, a group of 20 motivated sorcerers could do their own "Calming of the waters". Enchant a matrix with Calm Waters 50 and Range 30, an investment of "only" 80 POW, 4 each, add yourself the Duration you wish. No need to make it very long as it will probably be dispelled through heroquest and not normal RQ mechanics, though it is possible the Waertagi have Neutralize magic 100 matrixes in their ships just for these situations.

I can see the Vadeli doing this as a kind of protection scam, of just because it would be fun.

Edited April 2, 2022 by JRE
Non-funny errata

[JRE]

The last spell missing to convert is Form / Set Wood, which is actually quite easy, Command Plant. I would make the Form Spells usable as similar spells, as the other Commands, as long as the rune fits. So gold and  fire are similar, or leather, bone and meat.

Magus is still far, but I like the idea a Magus no longer has INT limitations to the number of runes and techniques mastered. Godlearner points for familiars are good, but I still would like to have the option to strengthen the familiar by sacrificing characteristic points.

I proposed to decrease species maximum, as otherwise it is not much of a sacrifice. As no sorcerer will sacrifice INT or POW, it requires that you sacrifice different characteristics than those. Typical sacrifices will be SIZ and CHA, and that brings us the hunchbacked ugly warlocks of myth. Shamans already have taboos, so sorcerers need something different.

[Godlearner]

3 hours ago, JRE said:

As no sorcerer will sacrifice INT or POW, it requires that you sacrifice different characteristics than those. Typical sacrifices will be SIZ and CHA, and that brings us the hunchbacked ugly warlocks of myth.

INT no, but POW sure. POW is something you can get back. I think a sorcerer would much rather sacrifice POW than SIZ or God forbid CHA. In RQG CHA is very important as it is used to determine the number of things you can bind, your Spirit Combat damage, number of spells you can know, etc.

3 hours ago, JRE said:

I still would like to have the option to strengthen the familiar by sacrificing characteristic points.

Why? It should be strengthened through sorcery. Put some spells on it.

[JRE]

I added the characteristic sacrifice both as a continuity for existing characters and because I like sorcerers deliberately putting something of themselves in their familiars, and getting weaker in the proccess. Because in the case of sorcery there is no god or spirit pool providing the ally, it is a part of you, a personal connection. 

The sacrifice decreases species maximum, because otherwise it is not really a sacrifice, specially for POW. And CHA may be the dump stat for the recluse zzabur in his tower, who is almost forbidden interaction with other human beings by his caste restrictions and his talar. It quickly becomes a vicious circle...

I also consider it necessary to allow for the animated objects that appear in previous editions and even some sources. So you can go with an animal familiar and sacrifice only a single point of whatever you less want or you can get an animated object and pour whatever of you you can afford. There could well be multipliers (1 player characteristic point would buy 1 INT or POW, but it could add 1D6 SIZ or STR), but I am not thinking at this level yet.

That is also my rationale why you can use the Familiar POW to defend, as it is really you. You can sacrifice more characteristics help it start with a higher POW or even INT, and in the same way, by simple symmetry, that also increases its species maximum, though in the case of objects it may well be increasing from 0 to 1. On top of that I expect they will use sorcery enhancements, though that may well be complicated by rune mastery.

Should an Enhance POW spell exist? I would say yes, but that means it requires Moon rune, a rune you cannot simply get through familiarity. For s normal sorcerer that means taking Mastery on a rune you will only use for one (very useful) spell. I would also rule that it is not in The Abiding Book or other Malkioni grimoires, except in some Arkati schools. That may well bring a revolution with the Arrolians and Carmanians spreading Moon rune spells, as I am sure at least the Loskalmi will embrace them eagerly. 

Aligned with this, after the discussions in this thread, even it is mostly arguments with myself, IMG Magi do not have the INT limit to number of masteries, but will be expected to emulate Zzabur and master them all...

Godlearner proposal of using the Magic rune as a replacement for other runes is interesting, but needs some kind of limit, as only a few spells have more than one rune. A possibility, to differentiate schools, could determine it by school, so an Aeolian can use Magic for Air and Movement, while a Black Arkati can use it for Darkness and Death. A Lunar Cyclic mage would get Moon and her choice, Death or Life. I would prefer not to replace more than two runes, as it would make rune mastery less critical, and for balance reasons an element and a power. I would also allow this replacement at the Sorcerer / Adept level, not earlier, though that may well require a rearrangement of rune masteries when you reach that point. 

[Godlearner]

1 hour ago, JRE said:

I added the characteristic sacrifice both as a continuity for existing

Currently Shamans do that. It is a personal decision for your game.

1 hour ago, JRE said:

The sacrifice decreases species maximum, because otherwise it is not really a sacrifice, specially for POW.

Most games I played in, players would rather have their characters lose an arm than take a hit to racial max POW

1 hour ago, JRE said:

I also consider it necessary to allow for the animated objects that appear in previous editions and even some sources.

It has been stated that Gloranthan sorcerers do not make familiar. That is why I switching to a concept of sorcerer's allied spirit as a familiar

 

1 hour ago, JRE said:

Should an Enhance POW spell exist?

As a means of defense and offense (should be expensive IMO in terms of intensity), sure I can see it, but not as a source of magic points.

1 hour ago, JRE said:

Godlearner proposal of using the Magic rune as a replacement for other runes is interesting, but needs some kind of limit

Yes, I proposed that only one rune in a spell can be replaced and it would be Implied cost in spell casting.

1 hour ago, JRE said:

an Aeolian can use Magic for Air and Movement, while a Black Arkati can use it for Darkness and Death. A Lunar Cyclic mage would get Moon and her choice, Death or Life. I would prefer not to replace more than two runes, as it would make rune mastery less critical,

I was envisioning it for any rune as the spell was being cast, but this method would work as well, although it seems you are allowing the sorcerer to replace the runes which they would most likely choose to master to start with. You would be better off to opening this up to the other runes and not the major ones for the school.

[JRE]

I agree the masteries are the natural ones, that is why I was thinking that they would have to redistribute masteries. However your idea would mean using the Magic Rune as sorcerers use the Command technique (assuming most PC sorcerers will be good Malkioni and shun Tap), as giving familiarity with all runes. It is great! Certainly that is how we will do it now, at least for the period till we get an official Chaosium expansion.

I also agree that sorcerers need tons of magic points, but the Enhance POW will be mainly for POW vs POW rolls. And your Magic rune idea means that almost all sorcerers with Summon and Magic could will learn it. 

[JRE]

I considered the Form / Set (shortened to Form X) spells easy, but the discussion with my player has been enlightening, as it has improved the details. I did not specify that it affects 1 SIZ of material per strength point, except any substance not solid or liquid, where it affects 3 cubic meters per 4 points of strength, as SIZ makes no sense. Fire and darkness are substances of that kind in Glorantha, and we were not sure where to place smoke, so it is a special case that requires Air and Fire, while Clouds in our Glorantha require only Air. The material cannot move, so you need to shape it by hand, except the non-solids which you can shape in place just with your mind. 

Animating would be a different spell, incorporating Movement rune and probably more specific (Animate Bronze Statue, or Animate Water Fountain), in exchange affecting more SIZ with less strength (possibly 3 SIZ/strength), and including movement (1 meter/ strength). Those could be used offensively if enough movement is put in. 

That would allow animating (slowly) a bronze statue of SIZ 10 with Strength 10, and with strength 14 you could move it 4 m per round. 

Now I consider these spells are not in Zzabur's Blue Book, but in the Brown Book, as using these spells properly is a caste crime for a zzaburi. Dronali are allowed to use them, and I suspect they were originally stolen / copied from the Mostali and then researched further by Hrestoli Men-of-All, who spread them among Dronali in the first age. The Abiding Book includes those typically in use at the beginning of the second age, which is how the character learned it. The God Learners did not limit that much their use, as part of their global quest for knowledge, but the successor states limit them, when they think about them, once again to the Dronali.

To use them to build something that stays strong when the magic expires requires an appropriate lore or craft, or it will break or fall apart when the Duration ends. Most Dronali use only as much Duration is needed for the project at hand, as the object should work unenchanted, but that makes them still probably the fastest crafters in Glorantha, though not necessarily the better, as the reliance in magic may weaken other techniques. Guilds guard the spells jealously, and even the Rokari watchers know better than interfering with the artisans. Normally only Dronali, or aspiring Men-of-all completing the Dronal requirements will use them, though some variants (Form Fire, Form Cloud, Form Water...) are used by zzaburi as decoration, signals, or intimidation, and justified as mastering the associated element, rather than a craft. Form Earth probably lies in between, a sign of magical mastery, but also of practical use, so I expect long debates on whether it is allowed or not for Zzaburi among the Rokari. 

Long standing guilds will have highly enchanted matrixes for special projects, such as shaping tree trunks for masts, or fitting large blocks of stone. They are secret, as their value is huge. They could be invaluable in a siege, both for defence and attack. 

Quite a long discussion for the spell I thought was done with.

[Gallowglass]

As much as RQ sorcery gives me a headache, I love how well it supports the fiction that a bunch of guys with spreadsheets were able to take over half the world.

[Godlearner]

9 hours ago, JRE said:

I considered the Form / Set (shortened to Form X) spells easy, but the discussion with my player has been enlightening, as it has improved the details. I did not specify that it affects 1 SIZ of material per strength point, except any substance not solid or liquid, where it affects 3 cubic meters per 4 points of strength, as SIZ makes no sense. Fire and darkness are substances of that kind in Glorantha, and we were not sure where to place smoke, so it is a special case that requires Air and Fire, while Clouds in our Glorantha require only Air. The material cannot move, so you need to shape it by hand, except the non-solids which you can shape in place just with your mind.

Yes, sounds right. The one aspect of the RQ3 version which I always felt so-so about was using this spell offensively as a lance. That was too much. The one thing you should also include in the spell is if the object formed retains its original shape or the last formed.

9 hours ago, JRE said:

Animating would be a different spell, incorporating Movement rune and probably more specific (Animate Bronze Statue, or Animate Water Fountain),

That does not seem right. Let's say there is a bronze bowl in a shape of a whale. Is it a statue, a bowl, an ash tray? The shape should not mater, just the substance. You may want to change the difficulty instead on the purity of the material. For example, a solid silver fork should be easier to manipulate than a silver and gold bracelet, but both could be the target of an Animate Silver spell.

9 hours ago, JRE said:

That would allow animating (slowly) a bronze statue of SIZ 10 with Strength 10, and with strength 14 you could move it 4 m per round. 

Should all be governed by Intensity

[Shiningbrow]

On 4/6/2022 at 1:39 AM, Godlearner said:

The one thing you should also include in the spell is if the object formed retains its original shape or the last formed.

I can't think of any logical reason why it turn back to the original shape.  There's nothing inherent in the shape of, eg,  clay, that it has a form which it always tries return to regardless (other than via gravity when it's soft).

However,  what about the impact of hammering and heating which is so important when making arms and armour ?

I wouldn't make them break or fall apart as soon as duration ends (without the successful craft roll), but would make them fairly easy to break, including for some things (statues, walls) under their own weight... but that's a chance,  and thus a roll.

[JRE]

That is one of the advantages of a bronze age. Bronze does not need much of that. You can cast a sword from molten bronze, sharpen it, and use it inmediately. All that tempering, annealing and hammering is for iron - steel, and that works differently in Glorantha. It will be convenient to slowly heat and cool a complex worked bronze object (or copper, or silver) to release stress in the shaping, but for simple shapes it will not be necessary. 

This toughness compared to the brittleness of iron is why cannons were preferntly made in bronze, which meant armies pillaged church bells, and after big battles the victors melted part of the seized cannons to build statues (often melted and recast as cannons a few years later). Some tubes went through many carriages and owners through the centuries, with different stamps and marks of ownership. I am sure that is also typical in Glorantha with many bronze objects that have been going through the ages.

That is why this is for me a craftsman magic, forbidden to zzaburi, because at the end you are doing something permanent with your hands. And I make the effect permanent, if well crafted and it is a substance that keeps its shape. Forming a cloud to take the Death rune shape will slowly break up, depending on weather conditions once the duration is up. Or writing words on water. But for solid objects, it remains as you form it, unless recast or reFormed.

The impact in the West is huge, as that means good craftsmen with experience with this magic can work much faster than in the Real World. I am sure theists (Gustbran) have crafting chants and helping magic, but I doubt it lets them take a bronze plow and get in a few minutes a dozen swords (though I would say that the form spell does not give enough control for hardening or shaping a fine edge, so they will still need sharpening. That also justifies why Third Eye Blue smiths use sorcery even where it is socially awkward. At the end, it is just imitating the Mostali, and we know they are the best craftspeople.

[French Desperate WindChild]

11 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

I can't think of any logical reason why it turn back to the original shape.

same for me, with the exception of water and other things like that : once the spell ends, the water is water, the air is air

11 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

However,  what about the impact of hammering and heating which is so important when making arms and armour ?

I wouldn't make them break or fall apart as soon as duration ends (without the successful craft roll), but would make them fairly easy to break, including for some things (statues, walls) under their own weight... but that's a chance,  and thus a roll.

not for me

I am not a smith but what I understand irl is you use hammer and heat to "transform" at a molecular level iron / steel and then give it some abilities.

How could you "transform" death metal in glorantha ?

 

[Godlearner]

12 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

I can't think of any logical reason why it turn back to the original shape. 

I was thinking of gas and liquids actually.