'Promotions' in Orlanth's Cult for Vinga Rune Levels

[PhilHibbs]

29 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

I agree in the case of the other subcults are for men. But in the case of women can join any subcult, without being initiate of vinga (aka apple lane god talker), what does this subcult ?

I guess "a woman being a warrior" is more socially notable than "a woman being thunderous", so there's a special subcult for the former but not the latter. Maybe some areas do have a thunderous subcult based around a female aspect of Orlanth, but not Dragon Pass.

[PhilHibbs]

I think the general answer is, not everything has to be symmetrical. Not everything has to make absolute sense and have all possible Venn diagram sections populated.

[radmonger]

The slightly more complex explanation is that the default path to Vingan initiation starts at the Ernaldan adulthood ordeal[1]. Vinga is the daughter of Ernalda and Orlanth; a vingan is someone who qualifies for initiation into Ernalda, but chooses Orlanth[2]. This can be either as a preferred choice during adolescence, or as a response to unexpected life events like losing your family to violence.

The other possible route is choosing  Nanda at Orlanth adult initiation, and then switching later for the same kind of reason any other Ernaldan might. This, being a minority of a minority,  is presumably rare enough to not interfere with the use of the Orlanthi 'all' [3].

[1] Which, by canon, requires menstruation.

[2] by my house rules, this means learning 'Shield' as a Rune spell from the Ernaldan temple you initiate at.

[3] i.e. 85%. Or perhaps it just falls under 'I count as a woman'. After all, there isn't really any systematic and well-understood way to distinguish between sex and gender in English.

Edited September 6, 2022 by radmonger

[Nick Brooke]

There's a male Vingan in RQ3's Dorastor: Land of Doom. I thought that was pretty silly at the time, but YGWofcV. (Berra Thengan, chief houscarl: uses male pronouns, see pic on p.90). Yes, "Berra" can be a boy's name too.

[scott-martin]

On 9/4/2022 at 3:58 PM, French Desperate WindChild said:

just as a named thunder brother/sister who did some great deed and then is able to provide one specific spell. nothing to do with gender or other thing.

Start with that spell. Sometimes Vinga is described as the original source of Fearless. She's that portion of Adventurous who pursues its course in the the face of extreme and even cosmic resistance if need be. You can't tell this wind "no." Other winds tend to go around a problem. Vinga has learned how to push through.

That is not a gendered trait but can be represented as the struggle to defy gender or other social conventions. Someone could develop this into a Glorantha where any determined would-be Orlanth initiate who has unusual trouble with the examiners (exotic background, unlucky roll) and keeps trying after initial failure ends up with a personal relationship with "Vinga." Maybe you don't even need cult approval to go this route, as blasphemous as it might seem. You just want it badly enough and you go for it, no matter what anyone tells you. You're Fearless.

In the relatively recent past, this was routinized for women in particular to establish social parameters for this "exception." But if you're going in this direction, it's actually about the spell and the attitude. The Fearless emulate Vinga. Other initiates emulate other aspects of the Orlanth complex.

[hipsterinspace]

On 9/6/2022 at 7:13 AM, Nick Brooke said:

There's a male Vingan in RQ3's Dorastor: Land of Doom. I thought that was pretty silly at the time, but YGWofcV. (Berra Thengan, chief houscarl: uses male pronouns, see pic on p.90). Yes, "Berra" can be a boy's name too.

He very well might be part of the more Sworn Virgin and less Red Sonja portion of Vinga's cult, someone who is vingan gendered in an explicitly transmasculine sense.

[PhilHibbs]

On 9/6/2022 at 12:13 PM, Nick Brooke said:

There's a male Vingan in RQ3's Dorastor: Land of Doom. I thought that was pretty silly at the time, but YGWofcV. (Berra Thengan, chief houscarl: uses male pronouns, see pic on p.90). Yes, "Berra" can be a boy's name too.

I suspect that that's actually a mistake, someone corrected the cult from Orlanth Adventurous to Vinga because they thought that Berra was a female name.

Another possibility is that the first Orlanth Adventurous settlers in Riskland were a band of Vingans, they set up the shrine, and anyone initiating from then on just joined as a Vingan because that was easier than changing things. After all, if there is no established Vinga infrastructure in an area, then women will join Orlanth Adventurous. In a challenging situation like Riskland, I can see the opposite happening. That also ties in with my suggestion in the other thread that Vinga is an easier sell to any Lunar observers than Orlanth. I don't know if this is supported or contraindicated in the text.

[JRE]

For me the answer is that cult hierarchies are social constructs, and as long as you get magic out of it, there will be wide variations between places. Because humans are like that. At the same time, we need a simplified uniform system for the game, so this variety of options gets codified in a relatively simple format.

So I have no problem with there being a Vinga temple associated with Ernalda in Esrolia, as everything is associated with Ernalda there, while she will be associated with Orlanth most other places, and possiblt with Humath in Safelster or Yomat in Seshnela.

Vinga shrines, or bigger temples, will be in areas where there are a lot of Vingans, so it is not strange for me that when there are enough women joining risky professions they band together and prefer to keep the men out of their worship. It is enough to spend twelve hours with them in the job, just to have the same in the temple. And the Ernaldans surely do not understand and the Axe maidens are too dark, so why don't we just join with the only ones that really get it?

If you do not have enough sisters, well, you join the brothers and just bear with them. But you probably will join some high holy days with your sisters.

[Darius West]

On 8/30/2022 at 9:48 PM, svensson said:

Has anyone wondered if Vinga Red Ladies ever become Storm Voices in Orlanth?

Queen Leika of the Colymar is her clan's Orlanth Rex [Regina?] priestess by dint of her election as queen, but I don't believe I've ever seen reference to a female Orlanth Thunderous priestess.

What do you guys think?

Page 282 of RQ:RiG features Vasana, who is only a Vinga Adventuress initiate joining the Storm Voice subcult.  Logically this extends the rune spells she has access to, but it also means she can potentially rise in both subcults of Orlanth.

[svensson]

I've kind of let this thread play without my input to see everyone's thoughts on this one because I've seen references for and against the idea.

It's been a good exchange of thought and ideas, and I appreciate them. So, thanks all!

It seems that, whatever past editions might have said, Vingans can rise as high as they wish in Orlanth... Or at least however far their talent, success, patronage and lineage will allow.

Edited September 16, 2022 by svensson