Thoughts on the Call Founder spell

[whitelaughter]

Call Founder is the nuclear option for the Praxian tribes: as a 6 point one use spell, it is usually better to use it as a deterrent than to cast it.

This is turn means a lot of effort needs to be put into ensuring that the threat is believable.

 

Firstly, the spell needs to work – important given it take a day to cast. And it uses the Man Rune; Eiritha and Storm Bull provide spells using the Beast Rune.

But the flip side to it taking a day, is that Worship(Waha) could be used as an Augment – boosted by magic points, sacrifices etc the skill could hit 480% easily, providing +50% with a Critical 25% of the time and +30% from a Special 70% of the time.

EDIT: On further reflection, the possibility of a critical success - and so losing no Rune Points - is going to make them insist on the highest possible score. 100% + Augment + Ritual time. This is ideal for deterrent purposes, as the longer spent in Ritual practice, the more tempting casting the spell becomes. And it isn't just the 6 points for the spell, there's also the points for Extension to be saved.

 

Since the Founder has ten times the STR and SIZ of the summoning Khan, most Khans will seek to maximize these attributes – and being Rune Lords, can use Divine Intervention to increase them to maximums. Excluding the Impala and Morokanth, all tribes would expect a Rune Lord to have both attributes at 21 before being entitled to the rank of Khan of the tribe.

The Impala though might go the other way, and require the tribal Khan to be a shaman who has sacrificed his Size down to 1*; then the summoned Founder will have a SIZ of 10 – perfectly average for an Impala Rider. He will still have an impressive damage bonus (12D6) but be able to use normal sized equipment, including the magical items available to the tribe. All Founders will have insanely high Manipulation bonuses (+252% just from STR, between +30% to +120% from POW) but the Impala Founder will have an equally high Agility modifier, and so be able to Dodge nearly anything. An Impala Founder might be Called for a year, and spend as much time teaching and socializing as defeating the tribe's enemies.

*Edit - re-reading the rules, I see that attributes cannot be sacrificed below racail minimums. However, a Tap Size would work.

For the other tribes though, equipment is the major issue. It is one that can serve as a deterrent, as the equipment can be shown off to visitors. Linen and leather armour can be dual purpose, designed to serve as tent material for the cult. The haft of a spear can double as the tongue of a wagon, arrow shafts, axe handles and so forth can also be dual purpose (and so ensure that there are always replacements available). Possibly wagon wheels could serve as shields (the vast strength of the Founder allows for a heavier design that a usual shield) or as insets for a Turtleshell cuirass?

As it takes a day to Call the Founder, the tribe has a day in which to assemble the equipment, allowing for considerable flexibility.

 

A composite bow though cannot be subjected to day to day wear: its only other use is for display. The Khan's tent would likely to be arranged to display the bow to maximum advantage.

Bronze also needs care. Possibly a dual purpose head could be forged, serving as a spearhead for a normal warrior but as an arrowhead for the Founder - but the warriors of the tribe will be expected to assist the Founder, they will still need to be armed during the crisis.

 

So rather than having practical uses, primary uses of expensive bronze equipment would be for display and worship.

 

The Morokanth require some special consideration. Firstly, they have higher SIZ and STR maximums – 30 each, allowing for a Founder with 300 in each, and a damage bonus of 36D6. Secondly, the Founder may prefer to use his claws rather than a melee weapon; his base D6 is doubled by his racial martial arts. Despite his natural armour, he would still want normal armour as well though! Also, any Founder of any tribe is going to want to focus on thrown weapons, to take advantage of his insane Damage bonus. None are listed for the Morokanth, so I suggest the discus; this weapon could be 'skipped' across the ground, striking multiple times, and each time hitting multiple targets. A discus is still ideal against opponents of a similar size to the Founder.

The final advantage for the Morokanth though is humans as food. The Founder could slap around the local giants to get them to listen to him, and then offer them herd-men as payment for serving as mercenaries. The shock of multiple opponents of this sort of size should cow all but the most insane invaders.

[EDIT] Forgot to include long term boost on the caster! If the casters STR or SIZ are increased, frex through Strength, Bear's Strength or Bear's Skin, this might increase the Founder by 10 times as much. Strength will need to be maintained by a Shaman; the other's require Odayla Initiation (possibly for the Founder as well as the Khan!)

 

Edited November 14, 2022 by whitelaughter

[Jose]

Well, with all that strength and power... Remenber... This is RuneQuest baby! The avatar of Ragnaglar can tell you that after his encounter with Nisk the unlucky 🤣🤣🤣

[MOB]

6 hours ago, whitelaughter said:

As it takes a day to Call the Founder, the tribe has a day in which to assemble the equipment, allowing for considerable flexibility.

Do the Founders materialise sky-clad, or do they turn up kitted out with the typical equipment and accoutrements of the tribe? I do think there is way more MGF potential for the the tribe to have to then kit their founders out with special weapons, armour, and magic, as you describe. But that also invites the question, what do these Founders ride?

Edited November 14, 2022 by MOB

[whitelaughter]

9 minutes ago, MOB said:

But that also invites the question, what do these Founders ride?

There's a notable shortage of usable beasts; but the riding beast the Founder rode during life might have grown large enough over the centuries to be worth riding!

[Akhôrahil]

1 hour ago, whitelaughter said:

There's a notable shortage of usable beasts; but the riding beast the Founder rode during life might have grown large enough over the centuries to be worth riding!

Obviously the founder has to ride, and so he has to come with his steed already in some manner. Presumbly, it’s also Siz x10.

[whitelaughter]

48 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Obviously the founder has to ride, and so he has to come with his steed already in some manner. Presumbly, it’s also Siz x10.

Obvious? Certainly the Morokanth will not.

Be worth using a Divination spell to find out; and whether barding needs to be provided.

[JRE]

Maybe we are missing a reuseable Eiritha spell, Call Founder's mount. Reuseable because it can only be used in combination with a Call founder ritual, but it is not a core Eiritha magic. Gets both sides of the clan involved.

[Akhôrahil]

39 minutes ago, whitelaughter said:

Obvious?

It's inconceivable to me that a (non-Morokanth) Founder will not ride, and it's going to be really tricky to find a mount of the right type for a SIZ 150 dude. I would assume they come as a package, although the exact process can be debated (maybe the Founder simply summons his own steed - it's certain to have been an Allied Spirit, after all?).

Edited November 14, 2022 by Akhôrahil

[Andrew M]

I believe I have the basis for my next convention game. Gathering the equipment for the Bison Khan , as a form of Heroquest for the Bison to ascend to become the new mount of the founder

[Joerg]

The Founders are the forefathers of both the two-legs and the four-legs. Why should they sit atop a mount while embodying part of the mount? As far as I am concerned, the illustrations in Nomad Gods are accurate, especially that battle image showing the two Founders.

[David Scott]

The Call Founder spell comes from Nomad Gods:

Quote

3. Kahns may attempt to call their Founder. This is accomplished by resting for one complete and undisturbed turn on any Altar without calling for any other Spirits that turn from that Altar. Roll die, if odd, the Founder appears, if even, try again next turn.

Nomad Gods, Kahns, page 25

Bison, Sable, High Llama, Morokanth and Sable Founder counters from the game:

 

Clockwise Combat factor, Magic factor, Movement factor, the asterisk mean they can attack magically.

We also have excellent art of them (Sable & Bison) by Gene Day:

9 hours ago, whitelaughter said:

Call Founder is the nuclear option for the Praxian tribes: as a 6 point one use spell, it is usually better to use it as a deterrent than to cast it.

This is turn means a lot of effort needs to be put into ensuring that the threat is believable.

Firstly, the spell needs to work – important given it take a day to cast. And it uses the Man Rune; Eiritha and Storm Bull provide spells using the Beast Rune.

Remember it is a Waha One use Rune spell, castable only by the legitimate khan of the tribe. It only uses the Man Rune, one of Waha's Rune's. 

It takes a day to prepare, but as a 6 point ritual it takes 6 hours, so a day plus 6 hours.

9 hours ago, whitelaughter said:

But the flip side to it taking a day, is that Worship(Waha) could be used as an Augment – boosted by magic points, sacrifices etc the skill could hit 480% easily, providing +50% with a Critical 25% of the time and +30% from a Special 70% of the time.

EDIT: On further reflection, the possibility of a critical success - and so losing no Rune Points - is going to make them insist on the highest possible score. 100% + Augment + Ritual time. This is ideal for deterrent purposes, as the longer spent in Ritual practice, the more tempting casting the spell becomes. And it isn't just the 6 points for the spell, there's also the points for Extension to be saved.

Worship (Waha) or Devotion (Waha) (see the augment rules in RBM), Sable Khans could use their Moon Rune. Remember that any Ritual magic bonus will add to the overall time. Magic points do not increase the casting chance. As this Rune spell has no duration, you can't stack extension with it.

Not sure how you reached 480%. With 100% in the Khan's man Rune, the augment max +50%, and 20 years of Ritual preparation it's only 100%, so it's 250%... (after 20 years).

9 hours ago, whitelaughter said:

Since the Founder has ten times the STR and SIZ of the summoning Khan, most Khans will seek to maximize these attributes – and being Rune Lords, can use Divine Intervention to increase them to maximums. Excluding the Impala and Morokanth, all tribes would expect a Rune Lord to have both attributes at 21 before being entitled to the rank of Khan of the tribe.

Becoming a tribal khan requires:

Quote

To become the chieftain of a clan, a Khan must stake their claim by speaking eloquently of their deeds for the clan in a special clan meeting. All Khans claiming the status are heard, and the clan members choose from among them accordingly. Becoming a tribal Khan follows the same pattern. 

from upcoming Cults of Glorantha

It's an event of great storytelling, with witnesses acknowledging their roles in the candidates deeds of supporting their tribe. No attributes required.

9 hours ago, whitelaughter said:

The Impala though might go the other way, and require the tribal Khan to be a shaman who has sacrificed his Size down to 1*; then the summoned Founder will have a SIZ of 10 – perfectly average for an Impala Rider. He will still have an impressive damage bonus (12D6) but be able to use normal sized equipment, including the magical items available to the tribe.

Shamans can't be Khans. Waha shamans can't learn Summon Founder.

9 hours ago, whitelaughter said:

All Founders will have insanely high Manipulation bonuses (+252% just from STR, between +30% to +120% from POW) but the Impala Founder will have an equally high Agility modifier, and so be able to Dodge nearly anything.

Giant creatures can't really dodge due to their size. This is where the rules for creating human adventurers don't work. Spirit weapons are usually at POWx5%.

9 hours ago, whitelaughter said:

An Impala Founder might be Called for a year, and spend as much time teaching and socializing as defeating the tribe's enemies.

As they are summoned for emergencies, they will leave after the emergency is resolved.

9 hours ago, whitelaughter said:

For the other tribes though, equipment is the major issue. It is one that can serve as a deterrent, as the equipment can be shown off to visitors. Linen and leather armour can be dual purpose, designed to serve as tent material for the cult. The haft of a spear can double as the tongue of a wagon, arrow shafts, axe handles and so forth can also be dual purpose (and so ensure that there are always replacements available). Possibly wagon wheels could serve as shields (the vast strength of the Founder allows for a heavier design that a usual shield) or as insets for a Turtleshell cuirass?

The founder comes with their appropriate weapon - as they are embodied spirits, just give them a Spirit Weapon (RQB 167). I do think it would be cool that if the a local clan has Tada's cudgel, they could use that. Likewise for armour,  I don't think any wear armour, but I'd give them the hide of their animal. As they are inherently magical, I'd have only enchanted weapons can injure them.

Here's my current Stats table (excluding magic abilities). I figured it from HQG to RQG, to see where founders would sit in the RQ Bestiary. For example most could divert Cwim (a good example of an emergency) or fight a serpent threatening a flash flood.

As this is summoning a cult spirit, have your Command Cult Spirit at the ready

Your founders may differ...

[Akhôrahil]

11 minutes ago, David Scott said:

As this is summoning a cult spirit, have your Command Cult Spirit at the ready

Might be tricky when it has POW 100? 🙂

Odds should be decent its objectives aligns with yours, though? If not, you might be having a bad idea?

[David Scott]

1 minute ago, Akhôrahil said:

Might be tricky when it has POW 100? 🙂

Odds should be decent its objectives aligns with yours, though? If not, you might be having a bad idea?

As this is the Tribal khan doing the summoning, I'd allow an auto-success for the command cult spirit roll.

[Akhôrahil]

I’m also wondering… since the Str and Siz depend on the caster’s, could the spell just be that you Heroform the Founder, rather than summoning it externally? In that case, Command isn’t an issue - it’s you, after all, in a way?

[David Scott]

27 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

I’m also wondering… since the Str and Siz depend on the caster’s, could the spell just be that you Heroform the Founder, rather than summoning it externally? In that case, Command isn’t an issue - it’s you, after all, in a way?

I don't think that is the case. Nomad Gods has separate counters for Founders and Khans. But if that's how you want to play it, play it that way.

Khan, Founder, Protectress, Shaman, Fetch.

Edited November 14, 2022 by David Scott
added counters

[Bill the barbarian]

19 hours ago, whitelaughter said:

Call Founder is the nuclear option for the Praxian tribes: as a 6 point one use spell, it is usually better to use it as a deterrent than to cast it.

<snip>

Rather impressed by many posts today so I have used up all my likes for today! I will have to say I liked this with a post! 

 

15 hours ago, Jose said:

Well, with all that strength and power... Remenber... This is RuneQuest baby! The avatar of Ragnaglar can tell you that after his encounter with Nisk the unlucky 🤣🤣🤣

As above, but you get a healthy belly laugh!

 

15 hours ago, MOB said:

Do the Founders materialise sky-clad, or do they turn up kitted out with the typical equipment and accoutrements of the tribe?

Shades of Terminator, MOB. Yep loved this one too! "Your clothes, gib dem to me!"

 

11 hours ago, Andrew M said:

I believe I have the basis for my next convention game. Gathering the equipment for the Bison Khan , as a form of Heroquest for the Bison to ascend to become the new mount of the founder

You sir are sick... love it, love it, love it!

 

9 hours ago, David Scott said:

Your founders may differ... <snip>

Wow, that is incredibly cool and helpful too!

 

8 hours ago, David Scott said:

As this is the Tribal khan doing the summoning, I'd allow an auto-success for the command cult spirit roll.

Don't know about that... we had better run this by that Q&A feller... hey, wait a minute!

Sorry all, I will go away now...

 

Edited November 14, 2022 by Bill the barbarian

[MOB]

10 hours ago, David Scott said:

The Call Founder spell comes from Nomad Gods:

Bison, Sable, High Llama, Morokanth and Sable Founder counters from the game:

 

Clockwise Combat factor, Magic factor, Movement factor, the asterisk mean they can attack magically.

Thanks @David Scott, seems pretty conclusive to me from the Nomad Gods counters (and Gene Day's awesome art) that the Founders don't ride. 

10 hours ago, David Scott said:

As this is summoning a cult spirit, have your Command Cult Spirit at the ready

I think I would just have this inherent as part of the Call Founder summoning (it is a six point one-use rune spell, after all).

Now, if you want the Founder to stick around after it has fulfilled its summoned task – beaten back Cwim/diverted the flood/wrestled the Watchdog of Corflu or whatever – that's when you cheekily might try to "Command Cult Spirit", and just hope it isn't pissed off if you fail. 

[whitelaughter]

16 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

It's inconceivable to me that a (non-Morokanth) Founder will not ride

[whitelaughter]

12 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

I’m also wondering… since the Str and Siz depend on the caster’s

...and since Waha is the god who grants Alter Body....

...and since a Rune Lord with STR and SIZ 21 is now within the attribute minimums for a giant....

 

whether he could Divine Intervention to change his species to Giant, growing a point of SIZ every year? [Flees to the safety of the Egregious munchkinnery thread]

[whitelaughter]

14 hours ago, David Scott said:

It takes a day to prepare, but as a 6 point ritual it takes 6 hours, so a day plus 6 hours.

Worship (Waha) or Devotion (Waha) (see the augment rules in RBM), Sable Khans could use their Moon Rune. Remember that any Ritual magic bonus will add to the overall time. Magic points do not increase the casting chance. As this Rune spell has no duration, you can't stack extension with it.

Not sure how you reached 480%. With 100% in the Khan's man Rune, the augment max +50%, and 20 years of Ritual preparation it's only 100%, so it's 250%... (after 20 years).

Shamans can't be Khans. Waha shamans can't learn Summon Founder.

Good catches on time and extension!

Magic points do not increase casting chance, but they do increase worship chance, improving the Augmenting skill. So 480% Worship(Waha) pretty easy. Given that a critical on the spell casting roll saves you six power points, the ideal is dropping some 1800 magic points into the Worship ritual to get a 95% chance of a 50% augment. This would be quite doable with Steal Breath, the tribes though would want to work out how to use all of their magic point storage crystals;  maybe an area enchantment that accesses all crystals within it.

 

Why can a Shaman not be a Khan? Rune Lords can certainly become priests, and the Shamans are the priests of the cult.

 

Edited November 15, 2022 by whitelaughter

[David Scott]

7 hours ago, whitelaughter said:

Good catches on time and extension!

Magic points do not increase casting chance, but they do increase worship chance, improving the Augmenting skill. So 480% Worship(Waha) pretty easy.

Magic points (and other bonuses) increase the worship roll for the one day worship ritual, that allows Rune points to be regained.

<@scotty hat on> You cannot chain rituals together to augment augments. Although as usual GMs may use the rules as they wish at their own table. <@scotty hat off>

7 hours ago, whitelaughter said:

Given that a critical on the spell casting roll saves you six power points,

Unrecoverable Rune points. It's done for an emergency, no khan who has the Rune points would flinch.

7 hours ago, whitelaughter said:

the ideal is dropping some 1800 magic points into the Worship ritual to get a 95% chance of a 50% augment. This would be quite doable with Steal Breath,

Fortunately Waha as the the nephew of Orlanth takes a poor view of sorcerers using Steal Breath.

7 hours ago, whitelaughter said:

the tribes though would want to work out how to use all of their magic point storage crystals;  maybe an area enchantment that accesses all crystals within it.

The enchantment would cost you one POW per crystal to create... (so with an average of 10 points per crystal and 180 crystals...) see Link Magic Point Conditions.

7 hours ago, whitelaughter said:

Why can a Shaman not be a Khan? Rune Lords can certainly become priests, and the Shamans are the priests of the cult.

Rune Lords can become priests (in cults that have priests), but the reverse is not true.

Waha shaman-priests fulfil a strict societal role and must prove their noble decent from Waha:

Quote

The Waha cult has shamans that serve as Rune Priests. They are less of a magical priesthood than they are a social hierarchy maintaining order in the tribes. Strict cult functions are more directed to tribal rule than magical or spiritual salvation.

Upcoming Cults of Glorantha