Homelands and Cultural Traditions – character generation work-in-progress for Esrolia

[Shiningbrow]

19 minutes ago, AlexS said:

Thanks @Shiningbrow. You're right that making traps and locks doesn't really fit the Philosopher archetype, but the inspiration here was Panaxles the Architect, who we assume is worshipped as a Hero Cult of Delaina, the Patron Goddess of the Wisdom-Blessed Cultural Tradition. We couldn't find a 'design sewer system' or 'build aqueduct' skill in RQG, and Devise seemed to be the closest!

Then, Lore (Engineering). The book says that the GM should not be restricted to the few Lores that are mentioned in the book. Besides which, Devise is a Manipulation skill, and you probably want to keep Philosophers firmly in the Knowledge category.

 

20 minutes ago, AlexS said:

For the Library Use-type wisdom there is the Law-Blessed Cultural Tradition, which we associate not with Delaina but with Imarja. We gave adventurers from this cultural tradition a bonus in Bureaucracy – but as we were thinking of lawyer types, Library Use would actually make just as much sense.

Yeah, i did see this. I can't really say yea or nay either way... Although, if you're going for the lawyer, apparently Customs can be used for Lawspeaker types (depending... " Customs encompasses laws that apply to daily life, as opposed to the bureaucratic texts that are accessible for only a small proportion of the population." p 176). See Hastur the Lawspeaker in the Adventurer's book of the GM's pack - Colymar Lore 100%, Bureaucracy 65%.

 

And, yes, I do like the effort your put into this! And I wish more would be done for other areas... Well done!

[AlexS]

41 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Then, Lore (Engineering).

Good call - we'll do that. Or maybe Lore (Building Design) to cover both architecture and engineering, while differentiating a bit from the Mason Craft Occupation.

43 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

if you're going for the lawyer, apparently Customs can be used for Lawspeaker types

That makes perfect sense for Sartar, but Esrolia seems to be a much more writing-centred legal culture. After all, Imarja's Charter of Nochet was written (on a goose egg shell rather than parchment or a stone tablet, but hey, myth is myth).

44 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

And, yes, I do like the effort your put into this! And I wish more would be done for other areas... Well done!

Thanks so much! We do have a longer-term ambition to venture into other areas of Kethaela that aren't likely to see a Chaosium volume for several more years (Caladraland, the Rightarm Islands), but just getting our heads around Esrolia is proving plenty challenging so these inputs from the tribe are greatly appreciated!

[svensson]

On 12/2/2022 at 2:49 AM, AlexS said:

Sure, in Sartar monster hunting is a job for the thanes, but in Esrolia the Grandmothers would much prefer a dumb (at least in their eyes) but loyal peasant like Vogarth to get the popular acclaim for slaying the scary beast than some Orlanth-type alpha male noble...

I don't see Esrolia quite like that, Alex.

There's plenty of work for alpha male types in a land threatened by the Lunar Empire for 50 years.... an opponent that murdered Belintar.

I think of it as a 'division of labor' type arrangement. The Barntar /Lodril / Vogarth types are as necessary to Fertility as Ernalda /Uleria. They also provide the community with heavy work and craftsmanship, all of this contributing to the health of the whole.

But some men are not mentally built that way, just as some women are not suited to the Maiden /Mother /Matron /Crone societal model. For them there are hero cults. And hero cults are equally necessary to community. Why sacrifice a husband and father who is an expert farmer when there is an Orlanthi or Humakt worshiper who actually wants the job immediately available? Certainly the hero types get rewards for taking these risks... but their lives are usually pretty short anyway and those gifts return to the community as inherited property and in inspirational stories that are part of the clan's legacy. [Note: I realize the Esrolia matriarchs organize their clans differently than Heortling Sartarites do, but the parallel is valid here, I think]

Oh, and because I simply didn't notice that you were new to Greg's Gloranthan Grognard Gang, welcome to the board!

Edited January 2, 2023 by svensson

[svensson]

On 12/2/2022 at 2:36 AM, AlexS said:

You're right, we did wonder about whether the 'heavy infantry' model worked for ship-to-ship fighting (wouldn't all that armour make marines just sink more quickly if they go overboard?), but ended up coming down in its favour for two reasons. The first is in-game variety: Engizi river patrol units (the default warrior choice for River-Blessed Houses) already give a water-based light infantry option. The second is mythic archetype: my co-author who is leading on the Rightarm Islands (which we assume set the tone for the marines of the God-King's Navy, even if not all the marines are actually Pelaskites) sees Wachaza-worshipping marines not as nimble net-throwers à la Engizi but as Pacific Island-type hand-to-hand warriors with terrifying war-cries and massive coral-headed clubs that they wield like mauls... and in the RQG Warrior Occupation presentation, if you're going to favour a two-handed weapon that makes you heavy infantry whether or not you wear much armour.

In reference to the Wachaza warrior type, it's true that there would or could be a 'Polynesian' aspect to it, although I personally see that as more of an East Isles thing. But YGMV.

Even were that the case, most sea and shore battles will begin with missile fire with bows, crossbows, and slings to begin with, and javelins, spears, and darts as the range closes. Then we get to the real work of either shearing the oars and boarding a vessel or trying to ram them. Warriors in this environment will be happy to have armors in the 'instant kill' locations [head, chest, abdomen] but leave their limbs free to swim if it becomes necessary. And these armors are probably no heavier than cuirboulli. In this environment lighter but protective armors will be highly prized... like Turtle Shell Armor that protects but doesn't subtract from one's Swim score. But naturally the demand for such high speed /low drag gear will always outstrip the supply. Therefore substitutes like cuirboulli are necessary while scale and plate armors aren't used much at all.

Another thing to note is something that Arabs and Byzantines taught the Crusaders way back when... bamboo and rattan shafts of the proper thickness have nearly the same linear tensile strength along its length as an oak shaft and therefore make DANDY spear shafts... they're lighter and in a sea battle they actually float! And since knowledge of this has been around since Ancient Egypt, it's a pretty good bet that the Esrolians will know about it.

Edited January 2, 2023 by svensson

[AlexS]

44 minutes ago, svensson said:

There's plenty of work for alpha male types in a land threatened by the Lunar Empire for 50 years.... an opponent that murdered Belintar.

You're quite right, there's plenty of work for alpha male types in war-torn Esrolia. I guess the question is whether we go with the model from 10k Goddesses and assume that the really hardcore warrior stuff is outsourced to 'foreign' mercenaries (though I have to be careful about using that term for alpha-type Orlanthi who aren't actually foreign, as @Jeff and @hipsterinspace have reminded me), or whether we come up with an 'indigenous' set of Esrolian warrior archetypes. I really like the Noble Brothers for that, as they can give you a lot of fighting-cult specialisms but without going all murderhobo, since their raison d'être is the defence of the city.

44 minutes ago, svensson said:

Certainly the hero types get rewards for taking these risks... but their lives are usually pretty short anyway and those gifts return to the community as inherited property and in inspirational stories that are part of the clan's legacy.

Yes, I do buy that – alpha male Hero behaviour is necessary and valued in the 'division of labour', but the key thing from the Grandmothers' point of view is that heroes have short life expectancies. Heroes that don't die young and gloriously turn into a problem because they accumulate their own followings and maybe start thinking of themselves as qualified to be Orlanth Rex type rulers. That's why the more domesticated Noble Brothers model is preferable from a matriarchal point of view: the Noble Brother militia may be following heroic Irillo or Kimantor cultists into battle, but those guys are taking their orders from the Grandmothers rather than following their own agenda.

44 minutes ago, svensson said:

Oh, and because I simply didn't notice that you were new to Greg's Gloranthan Grognard Gang, welcome to the board!

Why thank you kindly, @svensson! I'm not completely new to Glorantha (like a lot of people around here I played a lot of RQ2 in the 80s), but deep-diving into the world (first as a player in the Kethaela campaign that my son has been running and now via trying to write up these ideas) certainly feels new – and I definitely feel like a newbie amongst the giants of the Grognard tribe when I venture onto the board! 

Edited December 2, 2022 by AlexS
removing repetition

[AlexS]

30 minutes ago, svensson said:

Even were that the case, most sea and shore battles will begin with missile fire with bows, crossbows, and slings to begin with, and javelins, spears, and darts as the range closes. Then we get to the real work of either shearing the oars and boarding a vessel or trying to ram them. Warriors in this environment will be happy to have armors in the 'instant kill' locations [head, chest, abdomen] but leave their limbs free to swim if it becomes necessary. And these armors are probably no heavier than cuirboulli. In this environment lighter but protective armors will be highly prized... like Turtle Shell Armor that protects but doesn't subtract from one's Swim score. But naturally the demand for such high speed /low drag gear will always outstrip the supply. Therefore substitutes like cuirboulli are necessary while scale and plate armors aren't used much at all.

That's a really good point, and it's a shame that turtle shell armour is so associated with Hiaa Swordsman because it would be perfect for the Wachazi. Maybe they wear palm- or rattan-weave matting armour instead? And what kinds of missile weapon would you have Wachazi marines using? I'm assuming that darts/short javelins are more of an Engizi thing, and slings seem too Darkness-related. Weapons and Equipment lists a throwing club as an option (p. 70), would that fit the bill?

[g33k]

16 hours ago, svensson said:

Predators are one thing. Monsters? Phhht! That's what thanes are for 😁 Leave that Hero saves the day bullcrap the braggarts that actually want that job!

Predators are just monsters-lite.

Sometimes not-so-lite, in Glorantha!
Allosaurus are predators.

[JRE]

Turtle shell armor is associated with Hiia because he came from Kethaela, which means those armors are commonplace in the Mirrorsea coast. So if you want marines in Turtleshell armor I am sure they are common.

I am quite unconvinced about the appropiateness of Wachaza as a martial deity, except possibly among the mermen. A cult that is only useful in battle and piracy does not really fit with Belintar's delicate balance of forces, and I doubt enough time has passed to import foreign martial deities, and even in that case I would expect more easily a growing Tolat cult from the trade with Teshnos / Melib than a cult associated with God Learners, Eastern pirates and predatory fishes. 

The Holy Country has the technology to support all kind of mechanical missiles, and crossbows behave better in most pre-boarding and even boarding actions than bows, and can be scaled up for additional punch / harpooning.

However I expect the same weapons used as in the real world. Javelins and boarding pikes for the last five metres before boarding, and axes and other heavy cutting weapons as the favoured hand to hand weapon, to disable both the enemy personnel and their ship. And quite Earth cult appropiate. Even repulsing a boarding party will leave most ropes cut, oars and rudders broken and even damaged masts. Javelins / harpoons and boarding pikes are also useful against mermen and other sea creatures that may interfere with the ship.

[Joerg]

19 hours ago, svensson said:

Predators are one thing. Monsters? Phhht! That's what thanes are for 😁 Leave that Hero saves the day bullcrap the braggarts that actually want that job!

Thanes? Sounds like some ugly hairy male stuff... Nobles are expected to be women of culture and their well-behaved male playthings. Of course you need hunters for the coarse stuff, ugly and hairy and possibly male and/or human.

Absent the warrior rancher trope, there might be special guardians with their more or less tame monsters keeping the untamed ones in check, like that Babeester Gor cult temple guardian beast, or a Fay Wray type with her very own looming primate (Vogarth?).

[hipsterinspace]

16 hours ago, AlexS said:

You're right, we did wonder about whether the 'heavy infantry' model worked for ship-to-ship fighting (wouldn't all that armour make marines just sink more quickly if they go overboard?), but ended up coming down in its favour for two reasons. The first is in-game variety: Engizi river patrol units (the default warrior choice for River-Blessed Houses) already give a water-based light infantry option. The second is mythic archetype: my co-author who is leading on the Rightarm Islands (which we assume set the tone for the marines of the God-King's Navy, even if not all the marines are actually Pelaskites) sees Wachaza-worshipping marines not as nimble net-throwers à la Engizi but as Pacific Island-type hand-to-hand warriors with terrifying war-cries and massive coral-headed clubs that they wield like mauls... and in the RQG Warrior Occupation presentation, if you're going to favour a two-handed weapon that makes you heavy infantry whether or not you wear much armour.

Wachaza seems like he's taboo for most people (maybe not the Waertegi) due to his role as the primary war god of the Middle Sea Empire, the God Learners. His mythic weapons are the net and trident, the latter can be combined with his rune spell Fang of Wachaza to become quite terrifying, to say nothing of his seastrength and drown rune spells. I'd think most Esrolian marines would be initiates of the Diros, Dormal, or Choralinthor cults as sailors who are lay members in a warrior cult like Orlanth or Humakt for their combat spirit magic and weapon training. I suppose some might also initiate into Magasta, but it's my understanding that it's rare for non-triolini to do that.

[Joerg]

  

23 hours ago, JRE said:

Turtle shell armor is associated with Hiia because he came from Kethaela, which means those armors are commonplace in the Mirrorsea coast. So if you want marines in Turtleshell armor I am sure they are common.

I had the impression that Hiia was using locally sourced giant snapper turtles from the upper Oslir calm waters.

The Vendref would have had to trade as hard for turtle shells as they would have for metal in order to outfit the Hiia cultists, and that doesn't really make sense.

[AlexS]

On 12/2/2022 at 1:35 PM, JRE said:

Turtle shell armor is associated with Hiia because he came from Kethaela, which means those armors are commonplace in the Mirrorsea coast. So if you want marines in Turtleshell armor I am sure they are common.

I really like turtle shell armour for the Kethaelan marines, so very happy to go with this! Maybe with shell as the default for rank and file marines, but their leaders in Quicksilver armour with polished turtleshell decoration?

On 12/3/2022 at 10:31 AM, Joerg said:

I had the impression that Hiia was using locally sourced giant snapper turtles from the upper Oslir calm waters.

The Vendref would have had to trade as hard for turtle shells as they would have for metal in order to outfit the Hiia cultists, and that doesn't really make sense.

Maybe Hiaa Swordsman cultist vendref could use the turtle shell armour as a kind of passport signalling to the Grazer overlords that they are permitted to travel away from clan lands? The journey to acquire sea turtle shell from Choralinthor Bay could be an important pilgrimage for those seeking higher status in the cult, while standard Initiates maybe use a mix of locally-sourced river turtle shell with bronze turtleshell-imitation armour?

[AlexS]

 

On 12/3/2022 at 12:47 AM, hipsterinspace said:

Wachaza seems like he's taboo for most people (maybe not the Waertegi) due to his role as the primary war god of the Middle Sea Empire, the God Learners. His mythic weapons are the net and trident, the latter can be combined with his rune spell Fang of Wachaza to become quite terrifying, to say nothing of his seastrength and drown rune spells. I'd think most Esrolian marines would be initiates of the Diros, Dormal, or Choralinthor cults as sailors who are lay members in a warrior cult like Orlanth or Humakt for their combat spirit magic and weapon training.

Sure, Wachaza is scary and will have a bad rep in Esrolia because of the association with Vadeli / Artmali / Worcha Rage Sea Tribe invasion. However, we think it is plausible that Wachaza-worshipping clans survived (probably as pirates and/or taking tribute from fishing-clan neighbours) in the depths of the Rightarm Islands until Belintar saw their potential and recruited them into his nascent Holy Country Fleet.

It makes sense for the ships themselves to be run by followers of Dormal, Pelaskos and Diros (who would have the skills for handling ramming-based ship warfare), but the Fangs of Wachaza would provide pretty effective board-and-carry fighting teeth.

The God-King himself came from the sea and landed first in the Rightarm Islands, and doesn't seem to have had a problem with sorcery, so the Middle Sea Empire associations may not have been a problem for his regime, though these associations are certainly likely to have made other Kethaelans uncomfortable.

On 12/2/2022 at 1:35 PM, JRE said:

I am quite unconvinced about the appropiateness of Wachaza as a martial deity, except possibly among the mermen. A cult that is only useful in battle and piracy does not really fit with Belintar's delicate balance of forces, and I doubt enough time has passed to import foreign martial deities, and even in that case I would expect more easily a growing Tolat cult from the trade with Teshnos / Melib than a cult associated with God Learners, Eastern pirates and predatory fishes. 

If you have a pirate problem (with Alatan even before the Wolf Pirates showed up) then having former pirates as your marines is useful.

Also, Belintar's naval forces were pretty expansionist until the Kralorelans put a stop to their ambitions in the East, so thinking of them as state-sanctioned privateers rather than as an actual state navy during that early period might make sense. You could even think about the Wachazi being blamed for the disaster in Kralorela, and being kept on a short leash after that – which may have made the fleet an easier target for Harrek and his Wolf Pirates.

Thinking of Esrolian and Heortling analogues, in our Kethaela the position of Wachazi among the Pelaskites could be like the positions of Babeesters among the Ernaldans and Humakti among the Orlanthi: scary and outside the mainstream, but ultimately necessary and expected to be called on in times of emergency / existential threat.

[hipsterinspace]

Well of Daliath is pretty unambiguous about Wachaza being shunned in the Third Age, both for his incredible  cruelty and his deep association with the God Learners, whom even the Malkioni have very consciously attempted to purge the tainted legacy of. The God Learners weren’t shunned and hated for their sorcery, but for all the other stuff, messing around inside the myths of others and breaking the hero paths, trying to create a new (chaos) god with Zistor, the Goddess Swap, these things are blasphemies of unspeakable magnitude. There’s a reason the gods came together against the compromise to destroy Zistor and smite their empire, sending both Slontos and Jrustela beneath the sea. I would probably pick Magasta, Humakt, or Babeester Gor before Wachaza, maybe even Tolat as the brother of the Blue Moon (who controls the tides), but again, it’s your work.

Edited December 4, 2022 by hipsterinspace

[AlexS]

1 hour ago, hipsterinspace said:

Well of Daliath is pretty unambiguous about Wachaza being shunned in the Third Age, both for his incredible  cruelty and his deep association with the God Learners, whom even the Malkioni have very consciously attempted to purge the tainted legacy of.

Hmm, OK - in that case we may need to think again about even a famous reconciler-of-the-irreconcilable like Belintar incorporating Wachaza-worshippers into the Holy Country's official navy.

Maybe they are there as a 'hidden' cult among Rightarm Islanders in the navy, hiding beneath official Magasta worship and tolerated by the Admirals in the way that militaries often tolerate underground cults/factions in their ranks, both for the sake of a quiet life and because they can turn out to be useful, like Mafia connections in the US forces during the Allied Invasion of Sicily in 1943.

Will see what my co-author who is leading on the Rightarm Islands for our Kethaela writeup thinks - but other thoughts from the tribe also very welcome!

Edited December 4, 2022 by AlexS
removing incorrect autocorrect ('workshop' for 'worship')