RQ. Alternate methods of gaining POW ?

[Atgxtg]

I think the problem is that POW can go up each session. As pointed out earlier, getting a POW gain roll is fairly easy assuming you know an offensive spell.

Then it all boils down to making the improvement roll. If you buy some Divine spells, you lower your POW, but actually make it easier to go up.

Again going to the multiple checks idea, if it took 1 check per 5 POW to earn an improvement roll, you would slow down the advancement to about half or a third of the current rate with no other changes in mechanics.

[soltakss]

Is it just me? Am I the only person not to have a problem with POW Gain Rolls?

In my game, we use Runes, each of which costs 1 POW to gain. We also have Divine Magic and people can make Enchantments. We have Cult Presence (Aform of Divine POW Pool). There is a shaman and she put POW into her Fetch. All of these cost POW.

The PCs in my game normally get a POW Gain Roll once per scenario and because we use Hero Points they can attempt to reroll a failed attempt, so they get two bites of the cherry. I've not really seen any drawbacks to this and the PCs don't have huge numbers of Divine Spells.

So, why restrict POW Gain rolls? I don't understand.

[frogspawner]

So, why restrict POW Gain rolls? I don't understand.

Because some people already see the progress from Initiate- to Priest-levels of POW as too swift, and now we are proposing to give POW-gain rolls for resisting magic too - possibly making it worse.

[frogspawner]

In my game, we use Runes...

P.S.: Burn Him!

[frogspawner]

Again going to the multiple checks idea, if it took 1 check per 5 POW to earn an improvement roll, you would slow down the advancement to about half or a third of the current rate with no other changes in mechanics.

But requiring multiple checks would be quite a big change in mechanics. How about using 18 as the 'racial maximum' for determining chance of a POW increase (instead of 20/21)?

[Shaira]

I haven't got my rulesbooks handy, so I may be mixing up some RQ2 with RQ3 here, but in general my players have always disliked the skill caps imposed by becoming a Rune Priest first. Also - isn't there some time requirement for belonging to a cult before you can get a shot at the priesthood? A year or something? Or is that just me - could well be a houserule.

In any case, my players have tended to want to go for the path Initiate - Rune Lord - Rune Priest, that way keeping their skills cap free. And it takes a LOT longer to get there, what with all the skill requirements (I've always kept the 90%+ requirement).

Regarding my own Chronicles of Future Earth campaign, permanent POW gets used a LOT in the binding of Demons and Holy Powers into objects and holy symbols, so there's a constant trickle-out of permanent POW there too, which more or less matches the RQ Divine Magic use.

So, personally, I'm with Simon - I've got no problem with the BRP POW gain system as it stands (haven't seen whether the new rules do the same - assuming yes). If the progression Initiate - Priest is too fast, impose some time restrictions. Indeed, I've always liked to start characters as Lay Members (a hangover from RQ2, I know), which slows things down even more. Plus, initiates SHOULD have plenty of 1-use magic, and Priests SHOULD have plenty of Rune Spells (sorry - Divine Spells) - it's what they're good at!

However, if it's too fast in the mechanics, like I say - impose some time restrictions. I seem to remember one character actually going wayyy beyond the minimum req for priest (or rune lord - can't quite remember) because he had to wait until the next high holy day or some such. :thumb:

Cheers,

Sarah

[frogspawner]

So, personally, I'm with Simon - I've got no problem with the BRP POW gain system as it stands...

Fair enough. I think we were only trying to satisfy your stinginess in the first place!

BTW, can someone please tell us what the new BRP mechanism is?

[Shaira]

Fair enough. I think we were only trying to satisfy your stinginess in the first place!

Ah! My stinginess can NEVER be satisfied! Nya-ha-ha-haaaaaah! (etc)

Thanks for trying though

Yes - what is the new BRP take on POW gain rolls?

[Kloster]

Because some people already see the progress from Initiate- to Priest-levels of POW as too swift, and now we are proposing to give POW-gain rolls for resisting magic too - possibly making it worse.

As even with the current rules most characters already have 1 check per session (or at least per game), it would not change anything, except allowing to have characters without offensive spells the same rate of progression.

For me, this is a good thing, because the attack spell don't fit with all background.

If you want to slow down the trip to rune level, I think it is better to either reinstate the RQII rule that priest are requested to have a POW of at least 18, or to increase the requirements (number of runic spell points, skill levels).

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

[RMS]

If you want to slow down the trip to rune level, I think it is better to either reinstate the RQII rule that priest are requested to have a POW of at least 18, or to increase the requirements (number of runic spell points, skill levels).

...or just go with the bit about there needing to be an opening for a priest, there needs to be community support for a priest, etc. Just because a character is mechanically qualified doesn't actually make them a priest. That's the minimum, but I also force the roleplaying/world part of it to work too. I've had characters in my campaigns that have gone through a year of regular play (several years in the game world) who met the minimum mechanical requirements but there simply wasn't enough room for another priest. (In RQIII, this is where the acolyte comes in and I use it, but I restrict them more than a priest with their magic recovery.)

I also added a skill in <diety< Lore which must be 90% to become a priest, in a later campaign. I like that. I'd also note that a good number of the popular PC cults either don't distinguish between priests and rune lord, thus making the requirements fairly stiff, or have 90% skill requirements for priests anyway (ie. Orlanth).

For a couple of posts up, the part about priest/lords skills is strictly RQII. In RQIII there are no skill limitations on priests, and there are no limitations on nonlords, either. Anyone can advance in all skills and go past 100%, regardless of their profession (character class! ).

[Atgxtg]

For a couple of posts up, the part about priest/lords skills is strictly RQII. In RQIII there are no skill limitations on priests, and there are no limitations on nonlords, either. Anyone can advance in all skills and go past 100%, regardless of their profession (character class! ).

Actually the DEX limit is still there for weapon skills and a few other things. They did admit that the limit was artificial, and suggested dropping it if your group could role play the time commitment properly. Priests of war gods typically could fget their weapons skills over the limit on cult time, etc..

[RMS]

Actually the DEX limit is still there for weapon skills and a few other things. They did admit that the limit was artificial, and suggested dropping it if your group could role play the time commitment properly. Priests of war gods typically could fget their weapons skills over the limit on cult time, etc..

Gods of Glorantha has errata for that removing all skill caps for priests, and makes having them an optional rule. (I always assumed this was in the official errata for the RQIII core books too, but never bothered to look.) It's in the same place as the rules on allied spirits, rune metals, etc.

[frogspawner]

Again, it might be nice to hear what the new BRP says about this: as RQ2, RQ3 (printed), GoG, something else or nothing at all. Anyone know?

[Nightshade]

I meant, maybe the trip to priesthood should be made longer, with a requirement that the Initiate gained (and used?) at least 30 points (or whatever) of Rune Magic. IIRC, it's been noted elsewhere that Initiates single-use Rune spells (often) aren't worth the POW loss - but this could explain why they'd do it...

Well, you could simply make them _sacrifice_ X amount of Power to become a priest for all of that, that otherwise got them nothing. But what I was suggesting was that even after becoming priests, they often seem to accumulate Power (and thus divine magic) rather too fast.

[Nightshade]

I think the problem is that POW can go up each session. As pointed out earlier, getting a POW gain roll is fairly easy assuming you know an offensive spell.

Then it all boils down to making the improvement roll. If you buy some Divine spells, you lower your POW, but actually make it easier to go up.

Again going to the multiple checks idea, if it took 1 check per 5 POW to earn an improvement roll, you would slow down the advancement to about half or a third of the current rate with no other changes in mechanics.

And don't forget that under the standard rule, you can gain multiple power point s per check. However, even if you reduced it to just one, someone who stubborns it out at a relatively low POW (10, say) can pick up one every other game, which seems a bit speedy in many cases. Maybe more if the GM is doing the trick of giving interim checks when there's a long chunk of downtime mid-game.

[Nightshade]

Is it just me? Am I the only person not to have a problem with POW Gain Rolls?

In my game, we use Runes, each of which costs 1 POW to gain. We also have Divine Magic and people can make Enchantments. We have Cult Presence (Aform of Divine POW Pool). There is a shaman and she put POW into her Fetch. All of these cost POW.

The PCs in my game normally get a POW Gain Roll once per scenario and because we use Hero Points they can attempt to reroll a failed attempt, so they get two bites of the cherry. I've not really seen any drawbacks to this and the PCs don't have huge numbers of Divine Spells.

So, why restrict POW Gain rolls? I don't understand.

Because to many of us, accumulating all that happens too fast. That's rather the point. Not only do you get people who can enter magical high end professions fairly fast, but their practical power (in the small p sense) racks up fast because they can afford to sacrifice power frequently. More frequently than seems warrented given other sorts of advancement in the game, which tends to flatten out fairly quickly.

[Nightshade]

However, if it's too fast in the mechanics, like I say - impose some time restrictions. I seem to remember one character actually going wayyy beyond the minimum req for priest (or rune lord - can't quite remember) because he had to wait until the next high holy day or some such. :thumb:

My problem is that I don't think the issue stops when you hit priesthood; its just more obvious in how fast you get to it. But it continues to be an issue in terms of accumulating divine magic or other power resources.

The real issue is that non-magical specialists flatten out; at some point you start rarely advancing in anything that matters to you (in RQ3 it was around 100+modifier). That doesn't happen with Power; once you find where you're comfortable keeping your actual Power, you regularly accumulate more power sacrificed into things until the end of time. Now I'm not sure I'd be in favor of inserting a flattening mechanic, but having a not only linear, but relatively fast progression in one area of advancement while there's a flattening mechanism everywhere else doesn't seem to me to serve any game well unless everyone is pursuing the latter, and that's not true even in Gloranthan games (pure Rule Lords get bupkis out of it) let alone non-Gloranthan games where not everyone is going to go that way.

[Nightshade]

If you want to slow down the trip to rune level, I think it is better to either reinstate the RQII rule that priest are requested to have a POW of at least 18, or to increase the requirements (number of runic spell points, skill levels).

A power minimum for advanced magical options would do some of this, but it looks a bit odd on some of them. And a flat value favors any nonhumans who roll higher than normal Power, such as elves.

[RMS]

The real issue is that non-magical specialists flatten out; at some point you start rarely advancing in anything that matters to you (in RQ3 it was around 100+modifier). That doesn't happen with Power; once you find where you're comfortable keeping your actual Power, you regularly accumulate more power sacrificed into things until the end of time. Now I'm not sure I'd be in favor of inserting a flattening mechanic, but having a not only linear, but relatively fast progression in one area of advancement while there's a flattening mechanism everywhere else doesn't seem to me to serve any game well unless everyone is pursuing the latter, and that's not true even in Gloranthan games (pure Rule Lords get bupkis out of it) let alone non-Gloranthan games where not everyone is going to go that way.

As an opposing opinion, I like how this works. Skills are mundane and cap out at mundane levels. Magic is not mundane and can advance to levels far beyond the mundane. That's how power works in default RQ, and I like that about the system. You have to be magically powerful to really be powerful. I can't see where this doesn't match up extremely well with Glorantha btw. Rune Lords get huge benefits from greater POW, and constant POW gains, just like priests. They get different spells, but their's are generally far more adventure related. Plus, many of the common PC cults don't differentiate between priests and rune lords: you're either both or neither. Ones that do differentiate, it's usually trivial to get the priest part if you're already a rune lord.

Even in nonGlorantha I like this because it fits the genre: magic specialists can become powerful at a level that transcends what's possible for a normal mortal, even a heroic one.

[RMS]

A power minimum for advanced magical options would do some of this, but it looks a bit odd on some of them. And a flat value favors any nonhumans who roll higher than normal Power, such as elves.

Also, in RQII a priest and shaman has a maximum POW of 25 rather than 21, so that restriction does little to slow down POW gain for those characters.

[Shaira]

I think we're actually touching on a topic with RQ in particular and by extension with certain BRP genres in general (particularly fantasy / heroic ones) which I don't think has yet been satisfactorily dealt with in rules terms by any game other than Heroquest, which is a shame, as the pure mechanics of BRP are certainly capable of it.

The issue, without putting too fine a point on it, is "transcendence" - how do you model a human being (or whatever) passing from the human into the superhuman / transhuman state. RQ when you got to Rune Lords and Rune Priests (and Rune Lord-Priests) just began to model superhuman levels of power, but unfortunately (for me, anyway) sort of "froze" at that point, and there were never any clear guidelines of where to go next.

Heroquest was always touted as the "next step" in character progression, but when it finally turned up had moved out of the BRP sphere entirely - and into a space with is far less "crunchy" (I prefer crunch). That's why I'm hopeful that BRP with its apparent "levels of power" definition for characters might start to touch upon what we can do with higher power characters, hopefully differentiated by genre - a Gloranthan high-power character is going to be significantly different from, say a Ringworld or CoC high-power character - and we should be able to model that in the rules.

There's probably a good case to be made for a "Epic Level" sourcebook for BRP at some point. (Sorry to use the "E" word, but you get my meaning - maybe we call it "Hero Level" :innocent:)

BTW, one thing to remember in discussions of "flattening out" is that BRP has never been about some nebulous "game balance" that seems to afflict A Certain Other Game, nor IMHO should it be - issues like that are the domain of the GM. BRP in its various manifestations (RQ, SB, and CoC spring immediately to mind) has been able to create some very "unbalanced" characters, and I personally think that's okay.

*switch to Bernard Hill voice* : "death! Death! DEEEEEEAAAAATH!!!!"

:happy:

[frogspawner]

Well, you could simply make them _sacrifice_ X amount of Power to become a priest for all of that...

Ah, but by actually using spells the character might 'learn how to be a better priest', proving their worth to the examiner. It's not (just) an artificial barrier to character advancement.

But what I was suggesting was that even after becoming priests, they often seem to accumulate Power (and thus divine magic) rather too fast.

Then by all means try (18-Current)x5% for POW Gain rolls (and maybe only give +1's, too).

[Nightshade]

powerful to really be powerful. I can't see where this doesn't match up extremely well with Glorantha btw. Rune Lords get huge

Mostly in its speed. Take a look at how quickly someone can become a Rune Priest compared to how long the setting seems to think it'll take, and look at how quickly they accumulate Runespells compared to the amount assumed on NPCs.

benefits from greater POW, and constant POW gains, just like priests. They get different spells, but their's are generally far more adventure related. Plus,

That was true of post RQ3 versions, but prior to that, Runelords didn't get reusable Rune Magic, so they weren't particularly encouraged to go there other than to a minimal degree.

Even in nonGlorantha I like this because it fits the genre: magic specialists can become powerful at a level that transcends what's possible for a normal mortal, even a heroic one.

I don't see any sign it operates at the _speed_ you see in that genre however; fantasy is full of combatants who seem to rise as fast in skill as their magical counterparts. And that's ignoring the issue of whether its a good idea to encourage a setup where, in the end, you're a mage or you're nothing. That might work for Glorantha, but I don't think it works at all well for more general use.

[frogspawner]

There's probably a good case to be made for a "Epic Level" sourcebook for BRP at some point. (Sorry to use the "E" word, but you get my meaning - maybe we call it "Hero Level" :innocent:)

Hear, hear. And anyone doing such a sourcebook could do a lot worse than using Mr. Phipp's excellent HeroQuest stuff as a basis (Simon Phipp - RuneQuest/D100/Glorantha Home Page).

The old RQ2 Defence ability seemed to be something characters could use to transcend human limits, and get on the way to Herodom. Similarly, my original RQ2 GM gave our high-powered Rune-levellers a "Magic Manipulation" or some such ability, which could have eventually led to their being immune to enemy spells, like the SuperHeroes of Dragon Pass (Harrek/Jareel). I thought that was a logical way to go (though the campaign ended when we'd only got our first 5% - probably just as well!).

[frogspawner]

And a flat value favors any nonhumans who roll higher than normal Power, such as elves.

But even elves still have a rollable maximum of only 18, so they don't get much advantage.

I agree that POW gaining can seem to be a bit too fast, though (and I hadn't even considered shamans yet...)