RQ. Alternate methods of gaining POW ?

[Nightshade]

But even elves still have a rollable maximum of only 18, so they don't get much advantage.

I agree that POW gaining can seem to be a bit too fast, though (and I hadn't even considered shamans yet...)

I'd really think of going to the "roll for any magic use" and converting the chance from 5x to 1x on the percentiles, but it seems like that might simply make it too much of a lottery; it'd slow down the result over all, but perhaps at the risk of favoring the lucky more than BRP style advancement already does.

[Nightshade]

Hear, hear. And anyone doing such a sourcebook could do a lot worse than using Mr. Phipp's excellent HeroQuest stuff as a basis (Simon Phipp - RuneQuest/D100/Glorantha Home Page).

The old RQ2 Defence ability seemed to be something characters could use to transcend human limits, and get on the way to Herodom. Similarly, my original RQ2 GM gave our high-powered Rune-levellers a "Magic Manipulation" or some such ability, which could have eventually led to their being immune to enemy spells, like the SuperHeroes of Dragon Pass (Harrek/Jareel). I thought that was a logical way to go (though the campaign ended when we'd only got our first 5% - probably just as well!).

At one time we had some information about what was then being considered about Heroquesting, and it seemed to consist of HQers having two new attributes: Will, which was an expendable resource like a souped-up Power that would allow you to make direct changes in reality, and an attribute who's name now escapes me (I seem to recall it started with a C) that represented your awareness of cosmic forces and ability to sense when mystical powers were in use, including other's use of Will. We sort of flailed around with it a little, but never firmed up rules enough to really get much use out of it.

Edit: The other attribute was called Consciousness now that I remember.

[Shaira]

At one time we had some information about what was then being considered about Heroquesting, and it seemed to consist of HQers having two new attributes: Will, which was an expendable resource like a souped-up Power that would allow you to make direct changes in reality, and an attribute who's name now escapes me (I seem to recall it started with a C) that represented your awareness of cosmic forces and ability to sense when mystical powers were in use, including other's use of Will. We sort of flailed around with it a little, but never firmed up rules enough to really get much use out of it.

I'm fairly familiar with the various pre-Hero Wars heroquesting rulessets out there, and there are some interesting ideas in them, although the "super-RuneQuest" approach can get a bit munchkiny. I think the "Mastery" system of the current HeroQuest is a very good mechanism, and could well be applicable to BRP quite easily. I also think the "Runic Affinity" thing works brilliantly for Glorantha, and could easily be BRP'ed, as could other neat HQ mechanics such as Augments and the more "improvised" magic, skill, and trait system.

I'm not sure what I'm groping at here - the above HQ-derived stuff is clearly very tied to the nature of Gloranthan "reality", and, for example, would not work as smoothly in the Young Kingdoms - although you might be able to transfer the Mastery and Augment rules. Spiritual development being tied to one's "connection" to runes seems perhaps too Gloranthan to derive anything "universal" from, however, although I could be wrong.

Hmm... I'm going to lie down in a darkened room and think about this for a bit. If anyone does know what the new BRP rules say about POW gain and above 100% skills (and heroic characters), it'd be very cool to know.

[Kloster]

...or just go with the bit about there needing to be an opening for a priest, there needs to be community support for a priest, etc. Just because a character is mechanically qualified doesn't actually make them a priest.

...

(In RQIII, this is where the acolyte comes in and I use it, but I restrict them more than a priest with their magic recovery.)

...

True. This point is in the RQIII rules.

QUOTE=RMS;5119]

...

For a couple of posts up, the part about priest/lords skills is strictly RQII. In RQIII there are no skill limitations on priests, and there are no limitations on nonlords, either. Anyone can advance in all skills and go past 100%, regardless of their profession (character class! ).

[Kloster]

If you find the POW gain too fast for Priests and Rune Lords, don't forget the biggest loss they have: Divine Intervention, especially for Rune Lords, that have a quite high probability to use it, and that, with a D10 DI, have a good chance to gain it, with a D10 POW loss.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

[Nightshade]

If you find the POW gain too fast for Priests and Rune Lords, don't forget the biggest loss they have: Divine Intervention, especially for Rune Lords, that have a quite high probability to use it, and that, with a D10 DI, have a good chance to gain it, with a D10 POW loss.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

Well, I don't run Gloranthan games, so rune lords aren't an issue any more. But it is an issue for priests (and shaman and sorcerers, far as that goes).

[soltakss]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nightshade

At one time we had some information about what was then being considered about Heroquesting, and it seemed to consist of HQers having two new attributes: Will, which was an expendable resource like a souped-up Power that would allow you to make direct changes in reality, and an attribute who's name now escapes me (I seem to recall it started with a C) that represented your awareness of cosmic forces and ability to sense when mystical powers were in use, including other's use of Will. We sort of flailed around with it a little, but never firmed up rules enough to really get much use out of it.

I'm fairly familiar with the various pre-Hero Wars heroquesting rulessets out there, and there are some interesting ideas in them, although the "super-RuneQuest" approach can get a bit munchkiny. I think the "Mastery" system of the current HeroQuest is a very good mechanism, and could well be applicable to BRP quite easily. I also think the "Runic Affinity" thing works brilliantly for Glorantha, and could easily be BRP'ed, as could other neat HQ mechanics such as Augments and the more "improvised" magic, skill, and trait system.

To be honest, HQ the game has not given us much in terms of doing or running HeroQuests. The only thing it really gave us was a mechanism to determine how well the HQ did, but that didn't take into account the various degrees of success on different stations.

HQ has a good skill resolution method, but doesn't do much for HeroQuesting at all. Arcane Lore is better as it covers HeroQuesting from a non-rules viewpoint. Mongoose's Jrustela supplement has HeroQuesting-101 which is excellent and explains HeroQuesting very well.

I'm not sure what I'm groping at here - the above HQ-derived stuff is clearly very tied to the nature of Gloranthan "reality", and, for example, would not work as smoothly in the Young Kingdoms - although you might be able to transfer the Mastery and Augment rules. Spiritual development being tied to one's "connection" to runes seems perhaps too Gloranthan to derive anything "universal" from, however, although I could be wrong.

HeroQuesting is very much a Gloranthan thing, at least the way it has been written in RQ.

I don't know how it would work outside Glorantha. It has never worked for me in non-Gloranthan games. Mythic Russia has a HQ stab at Fantasy Europe HeroQuests, but those are really interacting with Fairy Tales and Planes and don't really work for me.

Hmm... I'm going to lie down in a darkened room and think about this for a bit. If anyone does know what the new BRP rules say about POW gain and above 100% skills (and heroic characters), it'd be very cool to know.

If you look at HeroQuesting as a way to get powerful characters then you are missing the point. Sure, HeroQuestors become powerful but that's just a side-effect.

For general BRP games, you need a way to become powerful and that would be setting specific.

In a Gloranthan setting, POW gain and scrifice is good. In a Young Kingdoms setting, demon control might be good or dealing with the powers of Law and Chaos. In another setting, powerful sorcerers may be born and not made, so it's in the initial makeup of the PC.

I've lost track of where I'm heading, so I'll stop it there .......

[soltakss]

At one time we had some information about what was then being considered about Heroquesting, and it seemed to consist of HQers having two new attributes: Will, which was an expendable resource like a souped-up Power that would allow you to make direct changes in reality, and an attribute who's name now escapes me (I seem to recall it started with a C) that represented your awareness of cosmic forces and ability to sense when mystical powers were in use, including other's use of Will. We sort of flailed around with it a little, but never firmed up rules enough to really get much use out of it.

Edit: The other attribute was called Consciousness now that I remember.

I've never liked the idea of Will as a force in HeroQuesting. I tried it and it just didn't work for me. It means that every HeroQuestor can do anything on a HeroQuest just because he has a high Will. Also, manipulating the space around you through Will doesn't appeal to me at all. It might be good for Moorcock's End of Time series but that's about it.

[Shaira]

HQ has a good skill resolution method, but doesn't do much for HeroQuesting at all. Arcane Lore is better as it covers HeroQuesting from a non-rules viewpoint. Mongoose's Jrustela supplement has HeroQuesting-101 which is excellent and explains HeroQuesting very well.

Agreed on the skill resolution method - the Mastery concept of bumps up and down is something I'm going to experiment with in BRP to see if it's a go-er. Probably not as a central mechanic, but as one of the arsenal of effects (along with multiple attacks and parries, increased critical chances, etc). I'll take a peek at Jrustela - I didn't know they had a load more HeroQuesting stuff in there.

HeroQuesting is very much a Gloranthan thing, at least the way it has been written in RQ.

Well, it's sort of a "Joseph Campbell RPG", I guess. I'd always thought of Ancient / Mythical Greece and the Kalevala / Eddas and Arthurian Mythos to be all ideal genres for HeroQuesting too.

If you look at HeroQuesting as a way to get powerful characters then you are missing the point. Sure, HeroQuestors become powerful but that's just a side-effect.

My point is not so much that HeroQuesting produces powerful characters, but that the HeroQuest rules are excellent at expressing powerful characters. Indeed, "transcendent" characters, those on the verge of mixing with deities & demigods in the Mythic Greek sense - individuals who have somehow become "more than human". That's the sort of concept I'd like to be able to express in the BRP rules. I think the "bolt-on" approach of MRQ's Legendary Abilities is very D&D clunky, but there may be a kernel of a good idea there. Overall I'd prefer something more integral to the rules - which is what HQ does well.

For general BRP games, you need a way to become powerful and that would be setting specific.

Yes and no. Certainly "power" is expressed in terms of the setting, in social / political / temporal terms. But the rules also clearly need to be able to keep pace.

In another setting, powerful sorcerers may be born and not made, so it's in the initial makeup of the PC.

This is a key point - and is probably a matter of personal preference. I've always been keen on games where "the PCs" start off with reasonably modest abilities (positively primitive in some cases :-)), and then gradually work their way up to positions of competence and power, positions which are by necessity heavily tailored to their life stories. For me, that's part of the fun - seeing the characters grow, the continuity of a campaign. I did find that RQ sort of petered out into "more of the same" rules-wise after you got to reasonably high level (Rune Lord Priest).

I've lost track of where I'm heading, so I'll stop it there .......

I do that all the time :happy: It's quite a rarified topic; possibly the new rules with their "levels of power" differentiation may help pin this down a bit!

[weasel fierce]

maybe its not the most popular thing around here, but Mongoose's "Magic of Glorantha" has a pretty good chapter on heroquesting, though again, not a lot of rules mechanics to work with

[Triff]

Is it just me? Am I the only person not to have a problem with POW Gain Rolls?

I'm with you on that one. I have given POW gain rolls for successfully resisting and overcoming with spells and in spirit combat, with no difference in the chance of getting one until you have maxed out, but still my players do not have high POW. Divine Intervention keeps them down.

Because some people already see the progress from Initiate- to Priest-levels of POW as too swift, and now we are proposing to give POW-gain rolls for resisting magic too - possibly making it worse.

If you let the players train their skills till they meet the requirements, then it goes fast. If they have to get there through adventuring, then it takes a long time. Personally I do not like the skill requirements at all. There should rather be some heavy in-game reasons as to way the character should be given such a possition.

I'm fairly familiar with the various pre-Hero Wars heroquesting rulessets out there, and there are some interesting ideas in them, although the "super-RuneQuest" approach can get a bit munchkiny. I think the "Mastery" system of the current HeroQuest is a very good mechanism, and could well be applicable to BRP quite easily. I also think the "Runic Affinity" thing works brilliantly for Glorantha, and could easily be BRP'ed, as could other neat HQ mechanics such as Augments and the more "improvised" magic, skill, and trait system.

Now that you've laid in that dark room of yours, do you have any idea of how to use "Mastery" for BRP?

maybe its not the most popular thing around here, but Mongoose's "Magic of Glorantha" has a pretty good chapter on heroquesting, though again, not a lot of rules mechanics to work with

That's the problem. It's actually a lot of info about heroquests out there, but not much stat-wise. Maybe "Blood of Orlanth" will give us some examples?

SGL.

[Shaira]

Now that you've laid in that dark room of yours, do you have any idea of how to use "Mastery" for BRP?

Hi Sverre - hope you had a good Christmas!

I'm waiting for the BRP rules to arrive at the moment, and looking forwards to seeing what's written about opposed skill rolls and 100%+ skill scores before attempting to write anything up, but my (unrefined) thoughts on Masteries in BRP are roughly:

i.) Ignore a direct 1-for-1 skill point conversion between HQ and BRP.

ii.) Following (i), arbitrarily decide that anything over 100% is a "Mastery", over 200% "Two Masteries", and so on.

iii.) If you have, say, 150% in a skill, use the HQ mechanic and read this as 50% with 1 Mastery, ie calculate all your specials, fumbles, etc, from a base score of 50%, not 150%, and use that 1 Mastery to "bump up" the success level of your roll. IE, you roll 55%, your failure is "bumped up" to a success; you roll a 01%, your critical (impale, whatever) can't be bumped up any further, so you "bump down" your opponent's opposed roll.

iv.) Loosen up the skill definitions a little, and allow Personality Traits a la HQ too. If a player can argue a certain skill / trait / spell use, permit it.

v.) Allow Augments equal to 10% of the Augmenting skill. In this, I would also allow Traits to be used to augment; a Bravery 60% could give a base +6% to your attack chance.

So that's the bare bones. Clearly there are other things to look at - the multiple attack rules, opposed skill rules, Mastery use in unopposed rolls, variable augments, runic associations, spell definitions and spell scaling, etc. But possibly there may be something quite usable in there for high level characters.

My first task though is to read the rules as written - it's possible they may work fine out of the box, or as near as, plus the Superpower rules may lead me in a different direction!

Happy New Year to all!

Sarah

[Lord Twig]

It looks like the default BRP method to gain power rolls is if you overcome someone with a higher power than yours OR if you successfully resist someone with a higher power. Which sounds pretty good to me.

[frogspawner]

It looks like the default BRP method to gain power rolls is if you overcome someone with a higher power than yours OR if you successfully resist someone with a higher power. Which sounds pretty good to me.

Yes, that does sound good! More restricted (slightly) and yet more balanced (in just the way we were independently proposing) than the old RQ method. Nice one, BRP!

[SDLeary]

Hi Sverre - hope you had a good Christmas!

I'm waiting for the BRP rules to arrive at the moment, and looking forwards to seeing what's written about opposed skill rolls and 100%+ skill scores before attempting to write anything up, but my (unrefined) thoughts on Masteries in BRP are roughly:

i.) Ignore a direct 1-for-1 skill point conversion between HQ and BRP.

ii.) Following (i), arbitrarily decide that anything over 100% is a "Mastery", over 200% "Two Masteries", and so on.

iii.) If you have, say, 150% in a skill, use the HQ mechanic and read this as 50% with 1 Mastery, ie calculate all your specials, fumbles, etc, from a base score of 50%, not 150%, and use that 1 Mastery to "bump up" the success level of your roll. IE, you roll 55%, your failure is "bumped up" to a success; you roll a 01%, your critical (impale, whatever) can't be bumped up any further, so you "bump down" your opponent's opposed roll.

iv.) Loosen up the skill definitions a little, and allow Personality Traits a la HQ too. If a player can argue a certain skill / trait / spell use, permit it.

v.) Allow Augments equal to 10% of the Augmenting skill. In this, I would also allow Traits to be used to augment; a Bravery 60% could give a base +6% to your attack chance.

So that's the bare bones. Clearly there are other things to look at - the multiple attack rules, opposed skill rules, Mastery use in unopposed rolls, variable augments, runic associations, spell definitions and spell scaling, etc. But possibly there may be something quite usable in there for high level characters.

My first task though is to read the rules as written - it's possible they may work fine out of the box, or as near as, plus the Superpower rules may lead me in a different direction!

Happy New Year to all!

Sarah

Sounds a bit like what I've been contemplating. Along with a bit of Pendragon opposed traits rolled in.

The traits would be used because I'm also looking to import the Pendragon magic system as either a Celtic specific system, or as a universal alternate for spirit/divine magic.

SDLeary

[Triff]

Sounds interesting. I'll look forward to see your final results. Though I have never played with it before, I'm kinda sceptical to traits. Will they be strongly connected to the system, or will it be possible to remove them and use the rest?

SGL.

EDIT: And yes thank you Shaira, I had a good Christmas! Hope you all had a good one too! Happy New Year!

[Shaira]

Regarding Traits, I've generally been better disposed to the HQ view of them than the Pendragon one. Pendragon Traits are, for me, too much of a "system"; whilst it's a very elegant one, it occupies a very central role in the game, which is appropriate for a game like Pendragon. But, personally speaking, I think it's too heavy duty for less "emotionally structured" games. The HQ "system", on the other hand, is so lightweight as to hardly be a system at all - you basically think of one or more personality traits you want your character to have (it could be a straightforward "Brave", or something as specific as "Hate All Trolls"), and give it a score. Then, in circumstances where it's appropriate, you use it as a direct ability, or use it to get a bonus to another skill (it'd be reasonable to up your attack roll against trolls if you have "Hate All Trolls" (nothing personal Triff )).

Anyway, I'd be inclined to go with the very lightweight version - so, to answer your question, it's not integral at all, it's something you can use as much or as little as you like, if at all. You could even say your Orlanthi all have "Hate Lunars" at 50%, which gives them a +5% in attacks on Lunars, and be done with it.

Happy New Year all!

Sarah

[Nightshade]

Yes, that does sound good! More restricted (slightly) and yet more balanced (in just the way we were independently proposing) than the old RQ method. Nice one, BRP!

I just still think you shouldn't have to be in power combat to improve it, but I admit the described system has the virtue it cuts back on the gains a little.

[SDLeary]

Regarding Traits, I've generally been better disposed to the HQ view of them than the Pendragon one. Pendragon Traits are, for me, too much of a "system"; whilst it's a very elegant one, it occupies a very central role in the game, which is appropriate for a game like Pendragon. But, personally speaking, I think it's too heavy duty for less "emotionally structured" games. The HQ "system", on the other hand, is so lightweight as to hardly be a system at all - you basically think of one or more personality traits you want your character to have (it could be a straightforward "Brave", or something as specific as "Hate All Trolls"), and give it a score. Then, in circumstances where it's appropriate, you use it as a direct ability, or use it to get a bonus to another skill (it'd be reasonable to up your attack roll against trolls if you have "Hate All Trolls" (nothing personal Triff )).

Anyway, I'd be inclined to go with the very lightweight version - so, to answer your question, it's not integral at all, it's something you can use as much or as little as you like, if at all. You could even say your Orlanthi all have "Hate Lunars" at 50%, which gives them a +5% in attacks on Lunars, and be done with it.

Happy New Year all!

Sarah

Re Pendragon Traits...

I haven't yet found a way to totally divorce the Pendragon magic system from them. But, I kindof like the idea of cultural and religious values playing a role. Makes things interesting if they stray too far from their homeland, or if they want to join cult Y because it has cool magic, but the cultural values make them totally unsuited to admission.

I am thinking of having the values (and passions too) add to rolls ala Hero Quest rather than the Inspiration rolls in PD.

Happy New Year everyone!

SDLeary

[frogspawner]

I have given POW gain rolls for successfully resisting and overcoming with spells and in spirit combat, with no difference in the chance of getting one until you have maxed out, but still my players do not have high POW. Divine Intervention keeps them down

So you don't see the problem - because you've already solved it by giving POW-gain rolls for successfully resisting. Pity the rest of us, trailing in your wake...

At least now we have all a solution, as the official BRP way gives 'em for that too.

Re Pendragon Traits... I am thinking of having the values (and passions too) add to rolls ala Hero Quest rather than the Inspiration rolls in PD.

I'd recommend fewer, bigger bonuses (say, doubling the skill) rather than fiddly "augments" of +10,+20,+50 or whatever. Straight adds are inconsistent in value between low (say 30%) and high levels (say 120%), and make it harder to calculate new special/critical chances etc.

As for HeroQuesting, it's time to use that nice new "New Thread" button...