Question about Undead

[tooley1chris]

Am curious why some undead have a CON score (vsmpires) while others do not (skeletons)

Working on a new project and this question popped up.

I'm tired and been drinking and don't wanna search it up😀

Edited January 25, 2023 by tooley1chris

[Ian Absentia]

2 hours ago, tooley1chris said:

Am curious why some undead have a CON score (vsmpires) while others do not (skeletons)

Relative to Hit Points, it's the amount of meat on their bones?  Dead or alive.

[Edit: Confirmed, BRP BGB p.346.  "Skeletons have no CON, and thus have only their SIZ as HP."]

!i!

Edited January 26, 2023 by Ian Absentia

[tooley1chris]

53 minutes ago, Ian Absentia said:

Relative to Hit Points, it's the amount of meat on their bones?  Dead or alive.

[Edit: Confirmed, BRP BGB p.346.  "Skeletons have no CON, and thus have only their SIZ as HP."]

!i!

Guess I'm thinking too much into it. I look at Animated  Abomination in Advanced Sorcery and they have a CON score yet they "work tirelessly." Would make more sense to give them more AR or other form of defense. 

I'm attempting my own game world and system based (MOSTLY) off BRPs SRD and trying to make more make sense.

The wraith has no skin on their bones but they have a CON score in Advanced Sorcery. 

Maybe I'll change it to where sentient undead have a CON score but animations not so much...

Comments?

[el_octogono]

I think Constitution should be reserved for living corporeal beings. Undead, spirits, etc, might use another stat in it's place. Undeads, vampires, wraiths, ghosts might use POW instead.

[Atgxtg]

6 hours ago, tooley1chris said:

Am curious why some undead have a CON score (vsmpires) while others do not (skeletons)

I believe it is a holdover from RuneQuest, where skeletons were not actually Undead, but instead were enchanted magical items (sort of like a magically animated robot). That is (probably) also why animated Skeleton STR and DEX scores were based on the POW points used to create them, rather that those of the deceased, and why they don't have an INT score.

[Atgxtg]

On 1/25/2023 at 9:55 PM, el_octogono said:

I think Constitution should be reserved for living corporeal beings. Undead, spirits, etc, might use another stat in it's place. Undeads, vampires, wraiths, ghosts might use POW instead.

Undead do not have a POW stat. The old in game explanation used was that POW equal Life Force and they are not actually alive, being incomplete creates In fact in RQ3 if you somehow give undead a permanent POW stat, say through a Creat Familiar (POW) spell it becomes a complete, living creature, although probably with odd abilities and appearance.

 

Instead of POW then, maybe just go with Hit Points equal SIZ?

 

Hmm now that I think about it, undead not having a POW stat doesn't really make sense according to the RQ rules. I mean, zombies and vampires are dead bodies reanimated by spirits similar to possession,  and spirits have a POW stat right? Maybe something to do with the nature of animating the dead locks up the spirit's POW somehow, so it is not available or noticeable? Probably so it can't be driven out with spirit combat or show up with standard detection spells..

Edited January 27, 2023 by Atgxtg

[tooley1chris]

On 1/25/2023 at 11:59 PM, Atgxtg said:

Probably so it can't be driven out with spirit combat or show up with standard detection spells..

I like the idea of driving out the possessing spirit in spirit combat. Be similar to undead turning in other systems, just not to the same scale

[Atgxtg]

6 hours ago, tooley1chris said:

I like the idea of driving out the possessing spirit in spirit combat. Be similar to undead turning in other systems, just not to the same scale

Me too. It really seems to fit in with how spirits and spirit combat worked in RuneQuest. I could see a shaman enter sprint combat to drive out the possessing spirit from some type of undead.

Oh, and while my above info might help to explain why skeletons don't have a CON in BRP/RQ that doesn't mean that things couldn't work different in another word with a somewhat different magic system.

I could easily see some sort of ritual spell where a necromancer summons up a spirit to inhabit a dead body or skeleton. There should probably be a certain POW to other characteristic ratio required (for instance 1 POW per 4 SIZ or STR  just to prevent necromancers from animating dragons with a POW 1 spirit as it would be easier to bind and control. MAybe something like 1/5th the total characteristics of the dead creature must be POW to animate? That way really big creatures would require powerful spirits.  

You know, it wouldn't take much to turn that into a new magic system, necromancy. The game already has spirit combat rules, and the binding rules from sorcery (ala Strombringer/Elric!) would cover most of it. Just put in a handful of create undead (type) spells and some sort of general of POW requirement for the sprints and it's done. It could easily be rolled into the existing sorcery rules.

 

 

 

 

Edited January 29, 2023 by Atgxtg

[Joerg]

13 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

Me too. It really seems to fit in with how spirits and spirit combat worked in RuneQuest. I could see a shaman enter sprint combat to drive out the possessing spirit from some type of undead.

What I dislike about RQ3 spirit combat is that it is slogging the Resistance Table rolls until one combatant is 10+ points below the other, or down to zero. That simply isn't fun to roll or to narrate, and you end up with a useless comatose shell of a spirit.

[Atgxtg]

6 hours ago, Joerg said:

What I dislike about RQ3 spirit combat is that it is slogging the Resistance Table rolls until one combatant is 10+ points below the other, or down to zero.

That's pretty much RQ2 spirit combat, too. 

Strombringer had the one roll determines the outcome thing, and that is fast, but has it's own drawbacks.

6 hours ago, Joerg said:

That simply isn't fun to roll or to narrate,

I dunno, I don't think it's much worse that two characters slugging it out with swords. 

Now considering the opposed nature of the roll they could streamline it by having only one roll and having the outcome decide who takes the damage.

Stormbringer has a one roll wins all approach, but that also wasn't all that fun to roll or narrate. If PC fails his binding roll, there is an angry elemental or demon to fight.

 

6 hours ago, Joerg said:

and you end up with a useless comatose shell of a spirit.

And that is wrong with that? I mean it is combat. If if were physical combat you'd end up with the same situation. SO basically the magician defeats the spirit and then binds it and it takes a day or so for it to recover it's magic points.